Popularity system is a epic crap.
If you make a map that last exactly 5 minutes and than writes out that popularity system sucks, than I will publish it on eu.
I am still making my map, but I wont release it on this crap system. (its 14 player, very complex and long strategy game, so it has no chance in this stupid system.) If blizzard wont "fix" popularity than I hope somebody will make a server without popularity system...
This honestly. If somebody could hack SC2 to connect players through a portal website with BASIC sort/search/filter capability it would be all you need.
Categories, keywords, simple game lobby.
Yup, whiskee. No matter how much people complain, the regular player base is very happy with the popularity system. I disagree that blizzard say we should dumb them down. But the current system is made for a few maps to fill up fast. And that's what popularity system is good for. And regular players don't care for diversity, otherwise they would have just quit playing the same 5 maps that had been here since release.
In theory, one of the popular tug maps could get replaced, if another one that's better come along. But the current system forbid new maps from being made, so we won't see better maps being made.
The popularity system isn't designed for a few maps to fill up fast, it's designed so that a few maps will stay at the top, regardless if they're good or bad. in SC and WC3, if you hosted a good and popular map, it'd be full in less then a minute. I mean christ if you went and hosted DOTA, it was full before you even got into the lobby.
I mean this popularity system simply doesn't have a single redeeming quality. Anything it can do, the old way did a thousand times better. The only reason the tug games remain at the top, is because there's nothing else to play. If you decided "fuck these, I'ma play something else", you can enjoy sitting in an empty lobby for three hours. So it's either play the shitty tug maps, or play nothing at all. Only way to get rid of them would require a MASSIVE organizational effort to get every player on bnet to boycott it, and even if everyone wanted to do that, we couldn't possibly organize such an under-taking.
And even then, if every player did that, the bots would just keep boosting the map to the top anyways. The popularity system really is the worst fucking thing I have seen in any game, ever, in the history of gaming. I dare anyone to name a worst hosting system then the popularity system. And the fact that blizzard refuses to fix it, refuses to go back to the way that worked for twelve goddamned years, proves just how little they actually care for the players.
I haven't had any motivation lately to work on any of my projects because of the same reasons the OP states. Hell I haven't even released my finished RPG I made for the blizz contest...
Yup, whiskee. No matter how much people complain, the regular player base is very happy with the popularity system. I disagree that blizzard say we should dumb them down. But the current system is made for a few maps to fill up fast. And that's what popularity system is good for. And regular players don't care for diversity, otherwise they would have just quit playing the same 5 maps that had been here since release.
Thing is, the regular player base you're talking about are not mapmakers.
Cod 4 Modern Warfare 2... no dedicated servers = mega fail = Bnet 2.0
well no dedicated servers fails for everyone with internet behind americas. cause no matter what you end up with a high ping making the game unenjoyable(for the likes of us in australia/nz and probably a lot more countries)
Cod 4 Modern Warfare 2... no dedicated servers = mega fail = Bnet 2.0
well no dedicated servers fails for everyone with internet behind americas. cause no matter what you end up with a high ping making the game unenjoyable(for the likes of us in australia/nz and probably a lot more countries)
Yeah but no dedicated servers didn't render the game unplayable, it's nowhere near as big a failure as Bnet 2.0. Sure it may be an annoyance, but only for those outside the US, and even then the game's still playable (unless you're from a third-world country and can't get anything beyond 56k). This popularity system makes custom gaming all but impossible. If you want a better example, imagine MW2 without dedicated servers, AND a limit to 5 games at any given time, and you get banned if you have a good ping. That system would rival the popularity system.
"No matter how much people complain, the regular player base is very happy with the popularity system."
I disagree with the myth that most regular players don't care about custom map content or that they are happy playing the same tug games over and over again. Many custom map players have simply stop playing custom maps because they are bored of playing the same maps over and over again. The only players that remain are the ones who like repetitive tug games or tower defences that took less than a week to make. If blizzard had a half decent way to let players play custom games then there would probably be 10x as many people playing custom games as there are now. Do you think DOTA would have been anywhere near as popular if it were the only WC3 game? No, because the fact that there were so many games for WC3 attracted players to play WC3 custom games, which meant there were far more people playing custom games, some of which tried DOTA out and found that it was fun.
I seriously doubt any maps, even the ones at the top of the list, benefit from the popularity system. Sure the maps of the top have a larger share of games played under the popularity system then they would otherwise. But at the same time those maps have a share of a much smaller player base because people like variety and don't want to play 5 minute tug games all the time.
"The popularity system really is the worst fucking thing I have seen in any game, ever, in the history of gaming."
What you people are calling bots are nothing more than FREE, LEGAL, shareware mouse recorders you can instantly find and have working with 2 seconds of work on Google. I honestly don't blame the people that do it anymore, no one wants to boost for hours manually, so why not automate it while you're sleeping or at school.
This system deserves "botters".
Why sentry scramble is getting botted however, seems wierd. Why would you bot a map that is featured and won't move it's position anyway?
You make a map and then have a small Window showing yout he maps available and updating every 10 sec for new created maps
Evan for the players and not just the map makers <sub>, i hate going on B-net wanting to play a game that is on the last page and having to wait
5hours for some to join it.</sub>
id like browsi the active games and go , oh yeah this could be fun.
Yeah but no dedicated servers didn't render the game unplayable, it's nowhere near as big a failure as Bnet 2.0. Sure it may be an annoyance, but only for those outside the US, and even then the game's still playable (unless you're from a third-world country and can't get anything beyond 56k). This popularity system makes custom gaming all but impossible. If you want a better example, imagine MW2 without dedicated servers, AND a limit to 5 games at any given time, and you get banned if you have a good ping. That system would rival the popularity system.
It did for people out of the US the only gameplay mode we could ever play was Team Deathmatch... cause that was the only chance we had of having a decent connection to someone closer to us. Ie someone in AUS. there were never enough people to play outside that 1 game mode with a decent enough connection. so 95% of the online gameplay was unplayable. This may not be for everyone but this is definetly how it stands for me.
much like Bnet 2.0 95% of the custom games are unplayable because of the popularity system. I'm all with you I think popularity is crap I have slowed down on map making and lost interest because in the 2 months of working on my map the same maps are still at the top, you occasional see some dodgy 2 player 5 minute made map rise up stay there overnight and fall again because it is just plain boring and has no replayability after 3 games.
I wonder is it possible to start a petition on blizzard forums regarding a change and getting people to sign it, I'm sure you will see a lot of interest and depending on how you word the petition, blizzard won't remove it and POSSIBLY may apply changes, fact is they will stick to bnet 2.0 but it could be modified to be a little bit more friendly towards the map making community
Yup, whiskee. No matter how much people complain, the regular player base is very happy with the popularity system. I disagree that blizzard say we should dumb them down. But the current system is made for a few maps to fill up fast. And that's what popularity system is good for. And regular players don't care for diversity, otherwise they would have just quit playing the same 5 maps that had been here since release.
In theory, one of the popular tug maps could get replaced, if another one that's better come along. But the current system forbid new maps from being made, so we won't see better maps being made.
I think this might be a common misconception. Blizzard needs to have a poll about "Do you like the popularity system?" so we can truly know.
I honestly think that even the regular public is getting tired of it. They want to play awesome and beautiful maps... not repetitive tugs that could have easily been made in sc1. <- Keep in mind I'm making this comment having not played custom games in a few weeks...
Whether or not you have fun making a map, the ultimate feeling is knowing people want to and love to play it... and that's something a lot of mappers might miss out on because of a certain system.
But Blizzard is Blizzard, so we'll get exactly what we dream of, it'll just take time :D
Could you guys give it up on the popularity system... Jesus christ you can only beat a dead horse so much..
And the blizzcon answer was correct. Build a private place where you and your testers can communicate.
Theres a couple 1000 people making thier own maps. Even if the game list only new games.. Half of you people crying wouldnt get anybody to join anyways.
Im gonna be a negative nancy here and beat you with your reality stick. If people are not playing your map. Its prolly because its not fun to play.
Ive had my map up towards the top of the list a couple time. I gotta test it with friends till it gets to about 20 plays. People start playing it ... it goes way up on list... 2 days later is at the bottom again with no plays.
I will admit this is because its not much fun.
If you need testers theres a ton of people right here willing to help you test.
You really shouldnt be testing on bnet unless your at a beta stage where the game is playable. Yes it might be hard to get random people. But make use of this community. Make use of your wow /sc2/wc3 friends.
QUIT BEATING A DEAD HORSE.. Im sure we will see changes in the future.
If you want to give up because of the current pop system..... GOOD RIDDENS SC2 would be better off with out you making your crappy maps anyways.
( I mean this in the nicest of ways. But i garentee Ive been playing on Bnet for longer then alot of you is my guess. Its not really that bad.. most of ya are mad nobody joins your map. Understandable. But quit complaining and find people on SC2mapster to test your maps with.)
When i read the topic title, i expected people to post some "positive" arguments, and thought of reading this to encourage me to continue my map (which im not giving up on only cause of popularity, but also cause the editor is starting to piss me off, i have to publish 30 times to actually succeed, then one trigger doesnt work for some reason (locally it did) and the whole game becomes unplayabale. Then theres actors just screwing with me)
But yeah, i more or less agree with everything that was written up to now... i know when i check the popularity list "Nexus wars, income wars, colonial line wars, this TD, that TD, other TD, fourth TD, some new TD, an ancient TD, TD that changed color, Something that doesnt have TD anywhere but is definitely a TD, Footmen, Zealot Wars, Marine arena, Ooooh Catalyst, SotIS, another DotA remake, something that looks strange" *log out, pester friends over skype to play melee 3v3/2v2, fail at that, open editor, get pissed, close editor, get on mapster, Eiviyn quits Catalyst, get pissed, destroy comp*
i wonder whether we can break the system simply by getting most ppl here on mapster to help make a few short fun maps that last 5-10 minutes for around 5 players, and then continually boost those, and flame the pop system in them. Would fail, but be fun. I already regret proposing this.
If you want to give up because of the current pop system..... GOOD RIDDENS SC2 would be better off with out you making your crappy maps anyways.
Wow, and this comes from someone who failed with a turret defense map?
Pathetic.
Please try creating a map that needs a set amount of players to start, lasts longer on average, or requires any brain for that matter (we could name them "niche maps" at this point) and come back to tell us how fun it is to be on page 10, we will have a nice chat then.
Hey! Be nice... What you say is certainly true for a lot of people; but your map might have died for reasons you might not know... well in my case, my TD made it's own way up to the top of page 2 after I hosted 10 games only. GREAT! Except the Tuesday reset happened and it died... never again surfacing on the US.
There are a lot of us that are good mappers and are facing the same problem too. Sure I know my RPG will be popular (not being cocky, the few that have privately played it have loved it... but they played it straight for over 2 hours... so gg 5 min interval LOL), but I don't know for how long or if a weekly reset will kill it amongst the boosted maps... or maybe I'll have to hire a full-time boost for $25/hour.
Also, public testing > private testing IMO. Private testing you just get people's opinions on what they want in your map. Public testing means someone tells you 'hey you know this exploit to your antiblock?' Several drop-ins to public games did fix a lot of exploits/bugs that no one told me about.
The other discouraging thing is that a lot of the maps that are popular look like they are in beta; however I guess they are just fun in their worsened state haha. People LOVE broken things that they can exploit in maps. It's a fact!
Well, personally, my custom game playing is WAY down than what it was in war3. I don't think I've actively wanted to replay any custom map on the list that I've played once, aside from maybe risk and a few others I can't remember now. Is it the system or the mappers?
The worst part, is that after wasting pmuch all of my summer evenings on it, it's almost finished. All it needs is some items added and spells cooldown to be balanced.
But, I just don't feel like wasting more time for something that I know won't even be played. I personally think if the system was different right now it could be successful, but by the time their supposed fix/update of the custom map system goes live, most of good mappers with big projects will have their maps playable... and I just can't keep up with their skills :l
Every map style/type whether its an AoS, RPG, TD, Hero Defense, or completly new style of game, will have followers that love the game and will want to play it.
The problem is for the maps that have a smaller following, it is making it harder for them to be played and on that get noticed by other people that may be interested in the game.
With the popularity system only handful of maps will be popular and making it EXTREMLY difficult for the people that like the other games to get quick games going.
Could you guys give it up on the popularity system... Jesus christ you can only beat a dead horse so much..
And the blizzcon answer was correct. Build a private place where you and your testers can communicate.
Theres a couple 1000 people making thier own maps. Even if the game list only new games.. Half of you people crying wouldnt get anybody to join anyways.
Im gonna be a negative nancy here and beat you with your reality stick. If people are not playing your map. Its prolly because its not fun to play.
Ive had my map up towards the top of the list a couple time. I gotta test it with friends till it gets to about 20 plays. People start playing it ... it goes way up on list... 2 days later is at the bottom again with no plays.
I will admit this is because its not much fun.
If you need testers theres a ton of people right here willing to help you test.
You really shouldnt be testing on bnet unless your at a beta stage where the game is playable. Yes it might be hard to get random people. But make use of this community. Make use of your wow /sc2/wc3 friends.
QUIT BEATING A DEAD HORSE.. Im sure we will see changes in the future.
If you want to give up because of the current pop system..... GOOD RIDDENS SC2 would be better off with out you making your crappy maps anyways.
I love you. Oh and people. MAPS HAVE MADE IT FROM THE BOTTEM TO THE TOP. QUIT QQ. There is a game that I have legit watched go from page 9 to page 5 followed by THE TOP of page 1. its the tank defence remake from sc1. Honestly, its what THE MAJORITY WANTS.
I ENJOY strategy maps, learning curve maps, etc.
THE MAJORITY DOESNT.
tbh, (no dis on you rodrigo) I'm still surprised debates has made it back to the 1-3 pages; because I'm surprised that the majority enjoys the game. Make games that the majority will like, and you will get on page 1.
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This honestly. If somebody could hack SC2 to connect players through a portal website with BASIC sort/search/filter capability it would be all you need. Categories, keywords, simple game lobby.
W2B: bnet v1.0
The popularity system isn't designed for a few maps to fill up fast, it's designed so that a few maps will stay at the top, regardless if they're good or bad. in SC and WC3, if you hosted a good and popular map, it'd be full in less then a minute. I mean christ if you went and hosted DOTA, it was full before you even got into the lobby.
I mean this popularity system simply doesn't have a single redeeming quality. Anything it can do, the old way did a thousand times better. The only reason the tug games remain at the top, is because there's nothing else to play. If you decided "fuck these, I'ma play something else", you can enjoy sitting in an empty lobby for three hours. So it's either play the shitty tug maps, or play nothing at all. Only way to get rid of them would require a MASSIVE organizational effort to get every player on bnet to boycott it, and even if everyone wanted to do that, we couldn't possibly organize such an under-taking.
And even then, if every player did that, the bots would just keep boosting the map to the top anyways. The popularity system really is the worst fucking thing I have seen in any game, ever, in the history of gaming. I dare anyone to name a worst hosting system then the popularity system. And the fact that blizzard refuses to fix it, refuses to go back to the way that worked for twelve goddamned years, proves just how little they actually care for the players.
I haven't had any motivation lately to work on any of my projects because of the same reasons the OP states. Hell I haven't even released my finished RPG I made for the blizz contest...
Thing is, the regular player base you're talking about are not mapmakers.
@Colt556: Go
Cod 4 Modern Warfare 2... no dedicated servers = mega fail = Bnet 2.0
well no dedicated servers fails for everyone with internet behind americas. cause no matter what you end up with a high ping making the game unenjoyable(for the likes of us in australia/nz and probably a lot more countries)
Yeah but no dedicated servers didn't render the game unplayable, it's nowhere near as big a failure as Bnet 2.0. Sure it may be an annoyance, but only for those outside the US, and even then the game's still playable (unless you're from a third-world country and can't get anything beyond 56k). This popularity system makes custom gaming all but impossible. If you want a better example, imagine MW2 without dedicated servers, AND a limit to 5 games at any given time, and you get banned if you have a good ping. That system would rival the popularity system.
"No matter how much people complain, the regular player base is very happy with the popularity system."
I disagree with the myth that most regular players don't care about custom map content or that they are happy playing the same tug games over and over again. Many custom map players have simply stop playing custom maps because they are bored of playing the same maps over and over again. The only players that remain are the ones who like repetitive tug games or tower defences that took less than a week to make. If blizzard had a half decent way to let players play custom games then there would probably be 10x as many people playing custom games as there are now. Do you think DOTA would have been anywhere near as popular if it were the only WC3 game? No, because the fact that there were so many games for WC3 attracted players to play WC3 custom games, which meant there were far more people playing custom games, some of which tried DOTA out and found that it was fun.
I seriously doubt any maps, even the ones at the top of the list, benefit from the popularity system. Sure the maps of the top have a larger share of games played under the popularity system then they would otherwise. But at the same time those maps have a share of a much smaller player base because people like variety and don't want to play 5 minute tug games all the time.
"The popularity system really is the worst fucking thing I have seen in any game, ever, in the history of gaming."
That is so true.
What you people are calling bots are nothing more than FREE, LEGAL, shareware mouse recorders you can instantly find and have working with 2 seconds of work on Google. I honestly don't blame the people that do it anymore, no one wants to boost for hours manually, so why not automate it while you're sleeping or at school.
This system deserves "botters".
Why sentry scramble is getting botted however, seems wierd. Why would you bot a map that is featured and won't move it's position anyway?
i dunno why they dont make it liek SC1
You make a map and then have a small Window showing yout he maps available and updating every 10 sec for new created maps
Evan for the players and not just the map makers <sub>, i hate going on B-net wanting to play a game that is on the last page and having to wait 5hours for some to join it.</sub>
id like browsi the active games and go , oh yeah this could be fun.
It did for people out of the US the only gameplay mode we could ever play was Team Deathmatch... cause that was the only chance we had of having a decent connection to someone closer to us. Ie someone in AUS. there were never enough people to play outside that 1 game mode with a decent enough connection. so 95% of the online gameplay was unplayable. This may not be for everyone but this is definetly how it stands for me.
much like Bnet 2.0 95% of the custom games are unplayable because of the popularity system. I'm all with you I think popularity is crap I have slowed down on map making and lost interest because in the 2 months of working on my map the same maps are still at the top, you occasional see some dodgy 2 player 5 minute made map rise up stay there overnight and fall again because it is just plain boring and has no replayability after 3 games.
I wonder is it possible to start a petition on blizzard forums regarding a change and getting people to sign it, I'm sure you will see a lot of interest and depending on how you word the petition, blizzard won't remove it and POSSIBLY may apply changes, fact is they will stick to bnet 2.0 but it could be modified to be a little bit more friendly towards the map making community
I think this might be a common misconception. Blizzard needs to have a poll about "Do you like the popularity system?" so we can truly know.
I honestly think that even the regular public is getting tired of it. They want to play awesome and beautiful maps... not repetitive tugs that could have easily been made in sc1. <- Keep in mind I'm making this comment having not played custom games in a few weeks...
Whether or not you have fun making a map, the ultimate feeling is knowing people want to and love to play it... and that's something a lot of mappers might miss out on because of a certain system.
But Blizzard is Blizzard, so we'll get exactly what we dream of, it'll just take time :D
Looks like map making morale is at a new low. Stick to your gut on what you think is fun and make it the best you can. Don't give up :]
Could you guys give it up on the popularity system... Jesus christ you can only beat a dead horse so much..
And the blizzcon answer was correct. Build a private place where you and your testers can communicate.
Theres a couple 1000 people making thier own maps. Even if the game list only new games.. Half of you people crying wouldnt get anybody to join anyways.
Im gonna be a negative nancy here and beat you with your reality stick. If people are not playing your map. Its prolly because its not fun to play.
Ive had my map up towards the top of the list a couple time. I gotta test it with friends till it gets to about 20 plays. People start playing it ... it goes way up on list... 2 days later is at the bottom again with no plays.
I will admit this is because its not much fun.
If you need testers theres a ton of people right here willing to help you test.
You really shouldnt be testing on bnet unless your at a beta stage where the game is playable. Yes it might be hard to get random people. But make use of this community. Make use of your wow /sc2/wc3 friends.
QUIT BEATING A DEAD HORSE.. Im sure we will see changes in the future.
If you want to give up because of the current pop system..... GOOD RIDDENS SC2 would be better off with out you making your crappy maps anyways.
( I mean this in the nicest of ways. But i garentee Ive been playing on Bnet for longer then alot of you is my guess. Its not really that bad.. most of ya are mad nobody joins your map. Understandable. But quit complaining and find people on SC2mapster to test your maps with.)
When i read the topic title, i expected people to post some "positive" arguments, and thought of reading this to encourage me to continue my map (which im not giving up on only cause of popularity, but also cause the editor is starting to piss me off, i have to publish 30 times to actually succeed, then one trigger doesnt work for some reason (locally it did) and the whole game becomes unplayabale. Then theres actors just screwing with me)
But yeah, i more or less agree with everything that was written up to now... i know when i check the popularity list "Nexus wars, income wars, colonial line wars, this TD, that TD, other TD, fourth TD, some new TD, an ancient TD, TD that changed color, Something that doesnt have TD anywhere but is definitely a TD, Footmen, Zealot Wars, Marine arena, Ooooh Catalyst, SotIS, another DotA remake, something that looks strange" *log out, pester friends over skype to play melee 3v3/2v2, fail at that, open editor, get pissed, close editor, get on mapster, Eiviyn quits Catalyst, get pissed, destroy comp*
i wonder whether we can break the system simply by getting most ppl here on mapster to help make a few short fun maps that last 5-10 minutes for around 5 players, and then continually boost those, and flame the pop system in them. Would fail, but be fun. I already regret proposing this.
Wow, and this comes from someone who failed with a turret defense map?
Pathetic.
Please try creating a map that needs a set amount of players to start, lasts longer on average, or requires any brain for that matter (we could name them "niche maps" at this point) and come back to tell us how fun it is to be on page 10, we will have a nice chat then.
Some people just abandon their project, some abuse the crap out of it. I myself just hang around have fun making maps/concept/library :)
(check out all links under my signature to have fun :P)
@SouLCarveRR: Go
Hey! Be nice... What you say is certainly true for a lot of people; but your map might have died for reasons you might not know... well in my case, my TD made it's own way up to the top of page 2 after I hosted 10 games only. GREAT! Except the Tuesday reset happened and it died... never again surfacing on the US.
There are a lot of us that are good mappers and are facing the same problem too. Sure I know my RPG will be popular (not being cocky, the few that have privately played it have loved it... but they played it straight for over 2 hours... so gg 5 min interval LOL), but I don't know for how long or if a weekly reset will kill it amongst the boosted maps... or maybe I'll have to hire a full-time boost for $25/hour.
Also, public testing > private testing IMO. Private testing you just get people's opinions on what they want in your map. Public testing means someone tells you 'hey you know this exploit to your antiblock?' Several drop-ins to public games did fix a lot of exploits/bugs that no one told me about.
The other discouraging thing is that a lot of the maps that are popular look like they are in beta; however I guess they are just fun in their worsened state haha. People LOVE broken things that they can exploit in maps. It's a fact!
Well, personally, my custom game playing is WAY down than what it was in war3. I don't think I've actively wanted to replay any custom map on the list that I've played once, aside from maybe risk and a few others I can't remember now. Is it the system or the mappers?
And yeah, I look forward to changes too :D
Gave up a long time ago with my map.
The worst part, is that after wasting pmuch all of my summer evenings on it, it's almost finished. All it needs is some items added and spells cooldown to be balanced.
But, I just don't feel like wasting more time for something that I know won't even be played. I personally think if the system was different right now it could be successful, but by the time their supposed fix/update of the custom map system goes live, most of good mappers with big projects will have their maps playable... and I just can't keep up with their skills :l
Put it this way:
Every map style/type whether its an AoS, RPG, TD, Hero Defense, or completly new style of game, will have followers that love the game and will want to play it.
The problem is for the maps that have a smaller following, it is making it harder for them to be played and on that get noticed by other people that may be interested in the game.
With the popularity system only handful of maps will be popular and making it EXTREMLY difficult for the people that like the other games to get quick games going.
I love you. Oh and people. MAPS HAVE MADE IT FROM THE BOTTEM TO THE TOP. QUIT QQ. There is a game that I have legit watched go from page 9 to page 5 followed by THE TOP of page 1. its the tank defence remake from sc1. Honestly, its what THE MAJORITY WANTS.
I ENJOY strategy maps, learning curve maps, etc.
THE MAJORITY DOESNT.
tbh, (no dis on you rodrigo) I'm still surprised debates has made it back to the 1-3 pages; because I'm surprised that the majority enjoys the game. Make games that the majority will like, and you will get on page 1.