Units/Heroes can dynamically change abilities inside a game.
Panorama to create GUI, it's CSS based language and very easy to handle. Below basic examples of GUI.
Minuses
No Editor for scripting and modifing abilities/units. There is Worldsmith which is created by community, but it's in active development.
Programming environment is Sublimte with packages.
You can check all tools for dota 2 modding here.
Bad map protection. All maps can be easily stolen. All maps are saved on your disk Steam\steamapps\workshop\content\570, you can open map archive with GCFScape and extract all scripts/units. You can't open map with terrain, but some guys already written Source 2 Decompiler. Don't know how it works but in any case your map will be stolen on 100%. May be some devs invented scripts protection, but i have not found it.
Dota 2 Workshop Tools just 2 years old and in active development. With comparison to Starcraft 2 it's alpha version, but people already created Vampirism, Gem TD, Angel Arena and many others RPG maps.
Notes
Most popular maps in Dota 2 are maps with heroes. There are small amount of Tug of War and Tower Defence maps.
Here is the list of the most popular maps in Dota 2.
Conclusion
Dota 2 Workshop Tools minuses are nothing vs it's advantages. Valve always encourages modding community. Look at epic success of Garry's mod, it's still one of the most popular game on Steam since 2004. It will be the same with Dota 2, believe me. Blizzard failed 7 years ago with IceFrog and Dota brand and it's continues failing more and more each year. When Valve makes things better, Blizzard does not care about players and it's community. Even if it's care, changes are very, very slow...
Respect to Gabe Newell.
there is more to add, but just some things from me.
i dont think client side hosting is an advantage over server side hosting. one of the very few things that were better by design in sc2 than wc3.
i didnt use the dota2 tools much yet but from what i see there the development will take even longer than in sc2. if i had to make a scale with effort to create something i would put it so: unity > dota 2 > sc2 > wc3
i don't know if it makes sense to give a community such powerful tools without a possibility to easily do things, because most ppl have no programming background.
i dont want to say sc2 is perfect, in my opinion they did well with the editor but way worse with bnet0.2 compared to wc3. the arcade could have been so much more.
Oh yea, Dota 2. I usually browse it every few months for happy feelings. The public aspects are so nice. The "Description - Discussions - Comments - Change Notes" thing is just ages ahead of what blizz does with sc2. Tho I thought there were some issues with pathfinding when having many units?
Anyway, I'm glad it seems to be doing good. Competition is always a good thing.
So what is the deal with advertising dota 2 workshop ,which is a moba engine with limited editing abilities, against Starcraft 2 which is an RTS engine with a powerful editor that basically allow you to do everything you can do in dota2 + much more. For example I love rts games and mostly hate mobas except Hots which is really different than the average mobas.
The local vs server storage is indeed a hard debate. But the main issues of the current storage system is the file size limit and the lack of campaign support.
We all know blizzard should do more to help promote maps (and those kind of things could be implemented from dota 2) but it is the issue of the community also. When i see all the TD, Moba, Thug of War etc lazy clones played 1000000 times and get 5/5 by 100000 person and ambitious projects get like 15 ratings i loose my fate in humanity. Seriously, there is a map that do nothing else than allowing you to spam one random unit from the lotv tech-tree. And it is 4.5 star/5, constantly played. People love to spawn one ..... unit.
Other thing is that i see modding community start replace fun with gib me monee, which is extremely poisonous. I know its not tightly part of the thread but i must talk about it. Ever since Blizzard hinted the map market everyone is zealously wait for said market and can't think about anything else than money. The more and more i see threads here about looking for paid mod positions... There are great stuffs rejected to be released because they wait for market or other ways to get money. People refuse to participate in projects if its not for money. Why? It ruins the modding experience. Where is the old good days when mods were about fun instead of money.
Conclusion:
-different engine, different possibilities
-Blizz should add similar features as you mentioned in the community advantages.
-server storage needs campaign support and even more increase in file size
- Community should stop vomiting up the same stuff all the time. Quality and more complex stuff should be embraced more.
modding for dota 2 is a time waste in my opinion. Because if you are about programming you'd better grab Unity and make money from google market, doing at least live walpapers and whatnot.
I dont see any good reason for programmer to use dota 2 instead of direct tool for commercial products. The assets which dota 2 offers worth much less than sc2. Mediocre freelance modeller will be able to make similiar quality stuff on demand whenever needed.
Blizz may have made a crap ton of mistakes in the past (the idiots which make the previous arcade designs should be fired) but with the join list now sc2 is
pretty much the best tool for non professionals due to the massive amount of already available assets and if blizz releases a hots mod pack that will also equal
hero wise). Also i heard from alot of friends that play dota the games usually dont compare to already existing arcade games and that its a pain to download
each map, lots of bugs with lobby etc. The only reasons to use dota editor imo are if u are a fan of dota, want to use the extra popularity or u want to make a
moba game in the dota engine.
I see only 4 options for sc2 modders to move on: Unity (widespread, easy to use if you're willing to learn programming), Unreal (like Unity but more complex), WC4 (expected in 2025...), or programming in general. This is if they want to step up their game and not be stuck doing the same type of modding all over again.
Although my hope is that people choose a toolkit because the base game is fun (I wouldn't be here if I didn't like SC2). I can't see anyone move over to Dota2 if they don't prefer it in general.
The main question of the whole "I'm not happy anymore with the current dev tool" issue is not "if I should switch to another high level tool", no. Not at all. The only question is "If I'm ready to go lower level tools". It's the only current of devs that exist between the dev environments. (Actually there's one more current, the extreme low level game devs, like "raw Cpp and openGL" ones go higher to unity).
So, I agree with those here, who put Unity above. We make games, we want lots of players, we have imagination. Dev environments linked to the main game limit player base, and high level ones create tech limits, so they are simply incomparable to lower level things like Unity or Unreal. The only vital argument for sc2 or dota2 mapmaking is "it's faster to implement an idea in a high level environment". But this is only true for 5% of ideas, which are (in case of sc2 editor) strategies or rpg's and close to the tool's mechanics. Arguments like "higher levels tools are easier to learn for noobs" can be demolished easily by anyone, who tried both.
Also in sc2 you can add maps to favourites and there masterpieces that dota 2 will never master like our custom campaigns or the Viacre or the marauder campaign (yes is a masterpiece, don't dare to say it isn't)
and what about the giant amount of blizzard assets and custom assets?
when i see the amount of players that play mods over there vs how much that play starcraft 2.. Its a complete joke and its utterly clear to anyone that Blizzard dropped the ball pretty hard with starcraft 2 in regards to the custom map scene. (which is what the vast majority of players would dabble in)
Legacy of the void is a step in the right direction for the arcade scene, and ( finally we should say).. But these years have been long to reach such a state and most have already given up on sc2 . Anytime i try to get some of my old buddies from war3 to play sc2 they always seem very uninterested in it. When they hear sc2, They dont think arcade scene. They think Ultra competitive 1v1 game that mostly asains play. Anytime i try to get new people to play sc2 and mention stuff like, You know the editor allows heroes and stuff right. They don't care... The some that did care got a really bad taste in their mouth from WOL. HOTS was a complete shit in the face for the arcade scene. Blizzard is the only people to blame for this mess and why sc2 doesn't have anywhere the player base as a valve multiplayer game.
Again, legacy of the void was just to late . For those of us that have given blizzard a chance again with legacy.. We are pretty satisfied with the changes, But most will not give sc2 another chance .
At this rate, i think blizzard should tie the arcade into DIABLO/HEROES OF THE STORM as well. If they combined Heroes of the storm and sc2 to have the same arcade and with these recent changes, then i think we might be on a path to recovery.
I much prefer the blizzard tools and starcraft 2/ Heroes of the storm has better grahics than dOTA 2. I find dota 2 looks awful and the map making tools are terrible.
Dont forget there is also engine limitations over there. Some guys tried to make a proper footmen frenzy with 12 players and couldnt do it , They got stuck with just 8 players. Hence never could they create a true footmen frenzy like experience.
My hope is that blizzard starts marking the Arcade scene its own seperate client that is completely free to play. You should not need sc2 or Heroes of the storm but it can be tied into both clients for ease of access for people that already have those games installed. That will foster a blizzard modding community like never seen before as anybody will have access to starcraft 2 powerfull editor and tools.
If you copy some of the valve stuff like forums for your map and youtube's and naming lobbies .. then hell yea.
But if they dont do any of what i mentioned. Its only a matter of time till people move onto better things. Put it this way, Legacy of the void has already seen its peak player base. From hear on out, we all fighting for a small amount of people that play sc2 when we make a custom mod. its only going to get worse.
It can't even bear a 12 players footman frenzy, lol what a great modding tool for dota 2 Ahahaha XD
I think that dota 2 mod song scene will soon have more players because the Game has more players, is more retarded friendly
Blizzard fixed too late the Arcade... Better late then ever... In thing i don't understand is why wc3 player (notorious toxic and elitist community that created the cancerous ones of lol and DotA) hates sc2 so much ...
My hope is that blizzard starts marking the Arcade scene its own seperate client that is completely free to play. You should not need sc2 or Heroes of the storm but it can be tied into both clients for ease of access for people that already have those games installed. That will foster a blizzard modding community like never seen before as anybody will have access to starcraft 2 powerfull editor and tools.
Even if Blizzard wasn't a bunch of old conservative perfectionists, who can spend years on betatesting; even if they ever considered making a separate arcade client; even if they had resources for a separate editor improving team, to make it a greater tool; even if they knew a smart marketing strategy to attract masses into this thing... even if all those weren't the issues, they'd still be too late.
Does it allow me to create a third person open world RPG with competent mechanics where my creativity is only limited by my ability to use the trigger editor? No? Then Im not interested. If it does... then Im probably still not interested cause I got SC2 for that already.
Oh and this is something that has always pissed me off alot, and these comparisons are even still beeing to nice to the MOBAs. Both LoL and DOTA 2 (especially LoL, imo), are complete graphical ripoffs from WC3. Not inspired. Not creatively similar. Ripoffs. They basically have the exact same graphics, the exact same heroes, with the exact same animations and silhouettes. In every sense that matter, the graphics and assets of LoL (and DOTA 2, in a different way) are identical with WC3 and by all means STOLEN from Blizzard. Such a blatant copy really pisses me the fuck off.
Some of advantages and minuses of Dota 2 Workshop Tools vs Starcraft 2 Editor:
Community Advantages
Multiplayer Advantages
Engine Advantages
Minuses
Notes
Most popular maps in Dota 2 are maps with heroes. There are small amount of Tug of War and Tower Defence maps. Here is the list of the most popular maps in Dota 2.
Conclusion
Dota 2 Workshop Tools minuses are nothing vs it's advantages. Valve always encourages modding community. Look at epic success of Garry's mod, it's still one of the most popular game on Steam since 2004. It will be the same with Dota 2, believe me. Blizzard failed 7 years ago with IceFrog and Dota brand and it's continues failing more and more each year. When Valve makes things better, Blizzard does not care about players and it's community. Even if it's care, changes are very, very slow... Respect to Gabe Newell.
Please add more information if you have.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RussianMapster
I don't think dota needs help with advertising, really. Good luck over there though.
there is more to add, but just some things from me.
i dont think client side hosting is an advantage over server side hosting. one of the very few things that were better by design in sc2 than wc3.
i didnt use the dota2 tools much yet but from what i see there the development will take even longer than in sc2. if i had to make a scale with effort to create something i would put it so: unity > dota 2 > sc2 > wc3
i don't know if it makes sense to give a community such powerful tools without a possibility to easily do things, because most ppl have no programming background.
i dont want to say sc2 is perfect, in my opinion they did well with the editor but way worse with bnet0.2 compared to wc3. the arcade could have been so much more.
Oh yea, Dota 2. I usually browse it every few months for happy feelings. The public aspects are so nice. The "Description - Discussions - Comments - Change Notes" thing is just ages ahead of what blizz does with sc2. Tho I thought there were some issues with pathfinding when having many units?
Anyway, I'm glad it seems to be doing good. Competition is always a good thing.
So what is the deal with advertising dota 2 workshop ,which is a moba engine with limited editing abilities, against Starcraft 2 which is an RTS engine with a powerful editor that basically allow you to do everything you can do in dota2 + much more. For example I love rts games and mostly hate mobas except Hots which is really different than the average mobas.
The local vs server storage is indeed a hard debate. But the main issues of the current storage system is the file size limit and the lack of campaign support.
We all know blizzard should do more to help promote maps (and those kind of things could be implemented from dota 2) but it is the issue of the community also. When i see all the TD, Moba, Thug of War etc lazy clones played 1000000 times and get 5/5 by 100000 person and ambitious projects get like 15 ratings i loose my fate in humanity. Seriously, there is a map that do nothing else than allowing you to spam one random unit from the lotv tech-tree. And it is 4.5 star/5, constantly played. People love to spawn one ..... unit.
Other thing is that i see modding community start replace fun with gib me monee, which is extremely poisonous. I know its not tightly part of the thread but i must talk about it. Ever since Blizzard hinted the map market everyone is zealously wait for said market and can't think about anything else than money. The more and more i see threads here about looking for paid mod positions... There are great stuffs rejected to be released because they wait for market or other ways to get money. People refuse to participate in projects if its not for money. Why? It ruins the modding experience. Where is the old good days when mods were about fun instead of money.
Conclusion: -different engine, different possibilities
-Blizz should add similar features as you mentioned in the community advantages.
-server storage needs campaign support and even more increase in file size
- Community should stop vomiting up the same stuff all the time. Quality and more complex stuff should be embraced more.
- mod for fun not for gib me monee.
modding for dota 2 is a time waste in my opinion. Because if you are about programming you'd better grab Unity and make money from google market, doing at least live walpapers and whatnot.
I dont see any good reason for programmer to use dota 2 instead of direct tool for commercial products. The assets which dota 2 offers worth much less than sc2. Mediocre freelance modeller will be able to make similiar quality stuff on demand whenever needed.
Blizz may have made a crap ton of mistakes in the past (the idiots which make the previous arcade designs should be fired) but with the join list now sc2 is pretty much the best tool for non professionals due to the massive amount of already available assets and if blizz releases a hots mod pack that will also equal hero wise). Also i heard from alot of friends that play dota the games usually dont compare to already existing arcade games and that its a pain to download each map, lots of bugs with lobby etc. The only reasons to use dota editor imo are if u are a fan of dota, want to use the extra popularity or u want to make a moba game in the dota engine.
I see only 4 options for sc2 modders to move on: Unity (widespread, easy to use if you're willing to learn programming), Unreal (like Unity but more complex), WC4 (expected in 2025...), or programming in general. This is if they want to step up their game and not be stuck doing the same type of modding all over again.
Although my hope is that people choose a toolkit because the base game is fun (I wouldn't be here if I didn't like SC2). I can't see anyone move over to Dota2 if they don't prefer it in general.
The main question of the whole "I'm not happy anymore with the current dev tool" issue is not "if I should switch to another high level tool", no. Not at all. The only question is "If I'm ready to go lower level tools". It's the only current of devs that exist between the dev environments. (Actually there's one more current, the extreme low level game devs, like "raw Cpp and openGL" ones go higher to unity).
So, I agree with those here, who put Unity above. We make games, we want lots of players, we have imagination. Dev environments linked to the main game limit player base, and high level ones create tech limits, so they are simply incomparable to lower level things like Unity or Unreal. The only vital argument for sc2 or dota2 mapmaking is "it's faster to implement an idea in a high level environment". But this is only true for 5% of ideas, which are (in case of sc2 editor) strategies or rpg's and close to the tool's mechanics. Arguments like "higher levels tools are easier to learn for noobs" can be demolished easily by anyone, who tried both.
nailed it
Minus are nothing compared to the advantages... Are you serious ? 100% changes of getting your maps stealed is nothing ? Russian Dota 2 Fan Boy ... What a cliché ... That's the Classic BS Post "blizzard is crap and they don't care about players", If your dota Mods are so better why they are all wc3 Mods clones on a game that is a clone of a wc3 mod and is a crappy rip off of wc3 itself with shitty TF2 graphics with mods that uses wc3 models??? And whith no RTS Engine ? How is it better if he cant handle RTS maps, campaign RTS maps like Gradius' "subjection" or great tug of war- tower defense - rpg maps with thousands or hundreds of units ? If you hate blizzard so much piss off already to your dota 2, yeah this game or this http://defilerrulez91.deviantart.com/art/WarCraft3-DotA-Heroes-of-the-Storm-vs-LoL-Dota-2-534338849
The Marauder campaign isn't a masterpiece ;) ;)
@OutsiderXE: Go
"Sends an armed Punisher Grenade to OutsiderXE's house"
when i see the amount of players that play mods over there vs how much that play starcraft 2.. Its a complete joke and its utterly clear to anyone that Blizzard dropped the ball pretty hard with starcraft 2 in regards to the custom map scene. (which is what the vast majority of players would dabble in)
Legacy of the void is a step in the right direction for the arcade scene, and ( finally we should say).. But these years have been long to reach such a state and most have already given up on sc2 . Anytime i try to get some of my old buddies from war3 to play sc2 they always seem very uninterested in it. When they hear sc2, They dont think arcade scene. They think Ultra competitive 1v1 game that mostly asains play. Anytime i try to get new people to play sc2 and mention stuff like, You know the editor allows heroes and stuff right. They don't care... The some that did care got a really bad taste in their mouth from WOL. HOTS was a complete shit in the face for the arcade scene. Blizzard is the only people to blame for this mess and why sc2 doesn't have anywhere the player base as a valve multiplayer game.
Again, legacy of the void was just to late . For those of us that have given blizzard a chance again with legacy.. We are pretty satisfied with the changes, But most will not give sc2 another chance .
At this rate, i think blizzard should tie the arcade into DIABLO/HEROES OF THE STORM as well. If they combined Heroes of the storm and sc2 to have the same arcade and with these recent changes, then i think we might be on a path to recovery.
I much prefer the blizzard tools and starcraft 2/ Heroes of the storm has better grahics than dOTA 2. I find dota 2 looks awful and the map making tools are terrible. Dont forget there is also engine limitations over there. Some guys tried to make a proper footmen frenzy with 12 players and couldnt do it , They got stuck with just 8 players. Hence never could they create a true footmen frenzy like experience.
My hope is that blizzard starts marking the Arcade scene its own seperate client that is completely free to play. You should not need sc2 or Heroes of the storm but it can be tied into both clients for ease of access for people that already have those games installed. That will foster a blizzard modding community like never seen before as anybody will have access to starcraft 2 powerfull editor and tools.
If you copy some of the valve stuff like forums for your map and youtube's and naming lobbies .. then hell yea.
But if they dont do any of what i mentioned. Its only a matter of time till people move onto better things. Put it this way, Legacy of the void has already seen its peak player base. From hear on out, we all fighting for a small amount of people that play sc2 when we make a custom mod. its only going to get worse.
It can't even bear a 12 players footman frenzy, lol what a great modding tool for dota 2 Ahahaha XD
Even if Blizzard wasn't a bunch of old conservative perfectionists, who can spend years on betatesting; even if they ever considered making a separate arcade client; even if they had resources for a separate editor improving team, to make it a greater tool; even if they knew a smart marketing strategy to attract masses into this thing... even if all those weren't the issues, they'd still be too late.
Does it allow me to create a third person open world RPG with competent mechanics where my creativity is only limited by my ability to use the trigger editor? No? Then Im not interested. If it does... then Im probably still not interested cause I got SC2 for that already.
Oh and this is something that has always pissed me off alot, and these comparisons are even still beeing to nice to the MOBAs. Both LoL and DOTA 2 (especially LoL, imo), are complete graphical ripoffs from WC3. Not inspired. Not creatively similar. Ripoffs. They basically have the exact same graphics, the exact same heroes, with the exact same animations and silhouettes. In every sense that matter, the graphics and assets of LoL (and DOTA 2, in a different way) are identical with WC3 and by all means STOLEN from Blizzard. Such a blatant copy really pisses me the fuck off.
ITT: Apples are better than pears.
@Crainy: Go
You're welcome