This thread is aimed at helping you find a partner or complete team to work with, the pitfalls and highlights of such endeavours, and to help you determine realistic expectations.
The number one basic rule to finding a team.
You must bring something to the table other than ideas or concepts.
The Big Two
Triggering / Scripting
Data Editing
The Small Two
Custom Art (Photoshop)
Custom Models (3DMax)
The Rest that don't really count
Terraining
Concepts / Ideas
Balancing
Leadership Skills
The Reasoning
You might be QQ right now screaming "but noes, I have ideazor!", well that is good, but unless you can do one of the big two why should anyone do the work for you so you can put your name on it and take the credit? "but waits, I share credit", then your name wouldn't be on there because you didn't do anything, hence it would not be your map.
I personally was a Terrainer before I took up scripting, I have been terraining different games for a good 16/17 years. Yes, Terraining is a big part of map polish, but not really map creation. As you can see, 90% of the Popularity List has horrendous terrain, seriously, like burn it with fire Terrain. If you want to be a Terrainer and nothing else, then join Teams already created, or offer your services to maps already made. Do not be trying to Lead a team on Terraining skills alone.
Compare me and Dryeyece and see what skills we bring to the table.
Dogmai
Advanced Scripting
Custom UI Design Art (10+ Yrs experience in Commercial Graphic Design)
Custom Art (Items/Abilities/Loading Screen in Photoshop)
Terraining
Ideas + Concepts
Leadership Skills
Dryeyece
Advanced Data Editing
Balancing (Bachelors of Science, Majoring in Video Game Art and Design - An actual Degree)
Spell Animations (Eyecandy)
Terraining
Ideas + Concepts
Leadership Skills
So we are actually pretty much even, we both have design skills (Making things look good), I control the UI + Custom Art side of things, he controls the Hero + Balancing side of things. We are nearly equal in what we bring to the table in terms of skill level and commitment.
Commitment
We spend a good 10 hours a day on Skype while working on Tofu, 5 days a week, and this is at the moment the project is nearly finished. During the peak load we were communicating for 16 hours a day 7 days a week. It is hard to have someone with you all the time, ask anyone with a girlfriend, there have to be compromises sometimes, and you do not always get what you want.
Delays will happen, and you will have to learn to work around other people's abilities or lack thereof. People have real lives outside of Map Making, both Dryeyece and I made Tofu our goal, so we had to sacrifice other things in our lives to make it happen. Do not expect to be able to make an amazing map whilst going to school and/or working a full time job in a very short amount of time.
Broth
Too many cooks spoil the broth, etc etc. The more people you have in your team the more things can and will go wrong, the more inhouse bickering there will be, and the more likely the chance that the map will never ever be finished. My advice? Keep it to the bare minimum of two people, one for Data, one for Scripting, and get the rest involved (Terrain/Art etc) when the map is in Beta stage.
Showcasing your Concepts/Ideas
Never underestimate the value of showing people your work, even if it is unfinished, rough etc. It shows people you are serious, and where your skill level is at. When I first met Dryeyece, he wanted someone to help him with a Trigger problem, I went into his map and was blown away by his skill level. I showed him screenshots of my work and he wanted to click things and actually play it. Tofu at that stage was no where near finished, it was merely a working concept which I showed to him and he was like a fatman at a candy factory.
There is a difference between telling people your ideas and actually showing them a working concept regardless of how unfinished it is. You should have a very basic working concept if you are looking to recruit high-skill-level mappers and not your average nooblet.
Summary
You must either do Trigger Editing or Data Editing before asking people to join your team. Otherwise, you do not bring anything more to the table than Ideas/Concepts and should be posting in the Map Request forum and not Team Recruitment.
QQ Moar
If you are offended by what I have said, it is a fact of life that you must be offering something for other people to take you seriously. Nobody wants to carry another person, do all the work for them only to have them put their name on the finished product, what if the shoe was on the other foot?
If you cannot do one of the big two
Pick one and LEARN.
If you think its too hard to learn
We all started with Zero knowledge at one point in time.
If you do not have enough time to learn
Then you do not have enough time to make a map and thus, should post in the Map Request forum.
TL;DR
Read it all.
Suggestions / Agreements / Disagreements
Spam me below and I will update this post if appliciable.
I have only worked quite shallow on maps and mods to games (in starcraft 2 I have done only one map, but I've done all my things in my map alone, almost anyway) but I agree with you on most of these points. However you seem to underestimate the potential of "casual workers" (most likely in the category you call the rest that really don’t matter), not everything has to neither be perfect nor even that great when release is due. A casual worker or a friend or something like that can bring much to the table even if they lack experience as they can be testers and give critics (VERY important, although listening to critics is an "art", never follow it blindly). However you might not consider a tester or “small task”-doer to be a part of the “team” but finding these people can be a real pain in the ass and just because you have friends who own starcraft 2 it doesn’t mean you have free testers. The popularity system doesn’t really let you test your map either if it’s not a front pager.
Otherwise very good text ;)
In other notes, if you are a terrainer and want some work I would like to hire you for my map ;). PM me if you’re interested or want details on the map.
I like what you wrote mate, but this thread was directed at the thread creators, the people wanting to create a team, not at the people wanting to join :)
You bought up very valid points, and yes, for people wanting to join a team there are no big two or small two, every role is unique and important.
Terrain for most custom maps is crap because most custom maps are just pimped up minigames that last 5 minutes. Still, I would argue that terraining shouldn't be in the "doesn't matter" category. I've always seen it as the trinity of triggers, terrain, data (in order of importance and/or possibly my personal hatred towards some of them). Assuming of course that terraining means actual level design/creation (like blizzard does it) and not just creating a pretty postcard in some dark environment with craploads of bloom and lights.
If a project requires some serious level design, then I'd say that a terrainer has every right to be the leader of a team. Examples or (fictional!) recruitment posts:
Quote:
I made some terrain with two textures total (using fill texture brush), sparkled it with randomly picked doodads and set up some default units around the map. Need suckers to do the data and triggers for my brilliant TD ideas.
I'd leave it to rot on page 29.
Quote:
I'm planning a full co-op campaign. I've already designed and built five levels. Need scripter to implement it and data specialist to mod some of the units/abilites.
[attaches screenshots/maps of the levels and a complete design doc/image]
The Rest that don't really count
Terraining
Concepts / Ideas
Balancing
Leadership Skills
....................................................................... ARE YOU KIDDING ?
You know I'm the bitch no-one likes, but seriously.
Goodluck making a awesome UI / Hero and play on a plain grass map ?
Concepts/Ideas, ok so you think a LOTR fanboy should work with a StarWars fanboy ?
Balancing, Ok so just make 1 unit own all
Leadership Skills, Well not sure on this one. But hell, you do need to stand up for your own ideas and communicate wisely.
And on the whole post.
Never underestimate showing off project..
Yeah, and make another thread about some random junk bragging what you two can do + knowing that you both showed off way too early..
I'm not mad, and I'm the Dresnia that has the friendly conversations with you on mIRC aswell. But seriously man, as good as you may be your communication skills towards the forums/community are a bit wacked :P
Best of luck nonetheless, and hopefully someone is helped by this ! ♥
If im NA and i want a team mate on EU can he still open my map in the editor im having problems right now with the lack of being able to open somemaps . is this possible?
You can open maps from any region as long as the map file has been localized for all regions (otherwise text values will be invalid). That is how you can have someone from another region host a map for you in that region.
You can get a very simple localizer right here at sc2mapster:
You can open maps from any region as long as the map file has been localized for all regions (otherwise text values will be invalid). That is how you can have someone from another region host a map for you in that region.
You can get a very simple localizer right here at sc2mapster:
Coming from a coder, I'm not surprised at that list that's going to incite butthurt, tbh. To be fair, I respect your opinion, but you're wrong.
If you really want a perfect map, what you need is the visionaries (ideas/concepts+leadership skills) to pick up the rough workers (data editors+coders) and the artists (UI editors+terrainers) to turn their vision to life. The reason you, as a coder, put artists and visionairies out of the league, is because you're the scientist who thinks art is pointless. You're the caveman who knows he will survive if he gathers food. In a sense I can understand that idea, as artists have a really obscure role in society and visionairies are actually workers/artists with a plan (and anyone will play that role at least once in his life). It's true that short-term, workers can survive alone while the other two can't, but that doesn't make the other two worthless.
Long story short: Workers and artists work for visionairies. Visionairies are workers or artists cast in a different role. Just two workers can make a good map, while just two visionairies or just two artists can't. Two workers can never make a great map without visionairies and artists, though.
Coming from a coder, I'm not surprised at that list that's going to incite butthurt, tbh. To be fair, I respect your opinion, but you're wrong.
If you really want a perfect map, what you need is the visionaries (ideas/concepts+leadership skills) to pick up the rough workers (data editors+coders) and the artists (UI editors+terrainers) to turn their vision to life. The reason you, as a coder, put artists and visionairies out of the league, is because you're the scientist who thinks art is pointless. You're the caveman who knows he will survive if he gathers food. In a sense I can understand that idea, as artists have a really obscure role in society and visionairies are actually workers/artists with a plan (and anyone will play that role at least once in his life). It's true that short-term, workers can survive alone while the other two can't, but that doesn't make the other two worthless.
Long story short: Workers and artists work for visionairies. Visionairies are workers or artists cast in a different role. Just two workers can make a good map, while just two visionairies or just two artists can't. Two workers can never make a great map without visionairies and artists, though.
Long story short: Workers and artists work for visionairies. Visionairies are workers or artists cast in a different role. Just two workers can make a good map, while just two visionairies or just two artists can't. Two workers can never make a great map without visionairies and artists, though.
Did you fail to read the entirety of what I wrote Mozza? You know very well that I am an artist first, that not only was I a terrainer before a scripter, but also that I am a corporate graphic designer by trade. That being said, even though I am an artist first, I cannot lead a team on concepts alone. To lead a team you need to do one of the big two, because those big two are what takes up the most man hours of map creation.
I did, but I still disagree. You might not be able to lead a team on concepts alone, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. What I'd say is far more than being able to deliver work yourself is having general knowledge of all areas of expertise, so you have a better idea of what is possible and what not - which ultimately leads to you having better insight as to how your vision could be realized. I could name some obvious examples like how car designers and architects aren't the same people who actually build the houses/cars, but I'll just stick to stating that you cut the curve a little shortly in your OP. Just because having a vision and leading a team to put that vision to life isn't generally measured as "putting in hours" in the way that it is for raw coding/editing, it doesn't mean that it isn't worth anything.
Claiming that you shouldn't lead a team if you're only a terrainer is somewhat pointless too. You should lead a team if you have a vision you want to realize and can find people who appreciate, like and agree with that vision. You could be a garbage man for all I care. I understand your point in that a map with just terrain isn't a custom map (it's a melee map), and that there's way too many people around who can't really do anything well and just 'stick to terraining because of that' (because terraining, while probably hardest to make perfect, is easiest to get into), but that doesn't mean that someone who'se just a really good terrainer can't lead a project to realize a vision.
The reason terraining is so lowly rated on the 'GE ladder of skills' is because in usual game creation it comes hand in hand with modeling and basically creating the entire world, which is something it's been stripped off in the GE - still though, that doesn't make it as 'redundant' as people are putting it forth from time to time.
My first impression during the read was your bossy tone during the Commitment section. It sounds like you are discouraging students like myself from having fun with map making. Yes, I haven't made any great maps and only have one published publicly but I still enjoy bringing some of my ideas to life with the GE when I find the time. If putting down map making students was not your main point then why mentioned them at all, especially in a negative deliver.
I contend that the Big Two are necessary to lead a project. I know of projects ongoing right now that are being led by people who do not do either, and are still in progress. And these are projects that are going surely and steadily.
Managing and leading a project is not mutually exclusive to bringing the baseline work to the table. You can be any role and accomplish things as long as everyone in the team is on the same level and understand the ultimate goal of the project. I would say it is EASIER if you are starting a new project to have knowledge of either trigger editing or data editing and have something to show and draw attention to your project, but it's far from being the definitive source.
You can be a terrainer/level designer with no knowledge of data editing or scripting and lead. Being a sole concept guy is a lot less reliable as a leader, since there are few applicable mapping skills, but even then it is still possible.
I also contend custom art and models being the 'small two'. Most projects may not have this luxury, as it's a process that takes people with external knowledge of these programs who may not be readily available. It might not even be a factor in a large project at all.
Hmmm, I disagree with everyone lol. In order to lead a project, you need to bring something to the table. It doesn't have to be Data or Triggers! For me, all I need is cupcakes, and you've got yourself a worker! (That was half a joke. I REALLY like cupcakes. More than tacos even.)
Anyways, to be a leader, you need to know at least a little about everything. If your terrainer shows you the terrain, and you say "It looks good, but I don't know anything about terrain.", then that is bad. You should be able to say "Maybe lower the water a bit." and then when your trigger person comes up to you and says "How should I make the units spawn? Should I, or should the data guy do it?" The response shouldn't be "Ummm, what's a trigger?"
Get the point? You don't need to be a wizz at everything, but you need to know what does what, how it works, and what it should be used for. Especially combining triggers and data, as you can accomplish a lot of the same goals with both. Could a terrainer lead a project by himself? No, but neither could a person who only does data.
This guide isn't really accurate. In fact, It's like reading one of the Twilight books - fictional and shitty. I don't bash tutorials, and try to give good and constructive feedback whenever I like something and want to help the creator improve it.
I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but first off - let's start with the title.
"Common sense"?
There's no common sense about it. The factors are:
Luck: If someone likes your theory, and happens to view the forum subsection while your post is still on the front page, THEY WILL JOIN.
Description: Providing a decent description.
"The Big Two" - Rename it to "The Big Four".
-Code
-Data Editing (This one seems fair enough)
-Lore
-Level Design
This is the MOST, MOST, MOST important part of any single game. How the hell did you put it under something that doesn't matter?
Google these games:
Oblivion
Morrowind
Neverwinter Nights
Counter-Strike
Rest of the TES series
Fallout series
Halo series
Fable series
Zelda series (Although, arguably, this one is based on the Lore, a component you put under "The rest that don't really count")
These are just from the top of my head!
Do you really think that unless these games could have been so successful without beautiful level design and lore?
The scripting plays an equal part in these games, but according to you, it's 3x as important as Lore and Level Design.
"The Small Two" is also almost completely incorrect.
In general games: Games would be nothing without art, so these two are equal to Lore, Code, "Data Editing" (More accurately stated as game balancing), and Level Design.
In SC2, however, those are almost not important, since the game has its' own custom art assets.
The thing is, you put art above Lore and Level Design, which is ridiculous.
I have no idea who stickied it. It was obviously a mod, but what does that say about the professionalism of this site?
Yes, I read the whole thing, but honestly it would be faster to rewrite this myself then show and explain each mistake.
I recommend taking this down from a sticky - people may actually follow this guide.
Also - I am an indie developer working with several friends on a java game. Each of us is specialized in one aspect (Which seems to be the only information this "guide" managed to get correct), so I'm not drawing straws here - It wasn't easy to find other people who were as interested in the project as me.
This post certainly seems like a hammer to the head, but It's not. If Dogmai actually fixes the above, I'll go through the whole "guide".
personally i don't really think the title reflects what half of the guide is even about, and secondly, it really should be re-worded to include the phrase 'in my opinion' as you come off sounding pretty condescending and as if every sentence you write is a fact, which frankly, it isn't =)
in regards to the guide not reflecting the title i do mean that in a positive way though, it has many good points for someone starting out map creating. e.g. trying to not get bogged down in creating terrain when really it's more about the mechanics and gameplay etc and i do generally agree with the point about only bringing ideas to the table. however, it does heavily depend on the situation. i think the poster above me (obliviron) has missed the point in all fairness, you are talking more about a team of like-minded _unpaid_ individuals coming together, he is talking more about a paid situation, for example, saying level design matters, he clearly hasn't seen a few of the high pop maps haha :D
to make this guide a little more rounded i would probably include:
good tips for starting out in general, team or no team!
try to start small
plan some ideas out before loading the editor
points to re-word
the rest that 'dont really count' are actually a great place to start, but once you have a basic concept, leave it at that, once you've then completed a beta version of your game through triggers and data you can come back and 'polish' the map by looking at these points, because, they do count!
too many cooks dont spoil the broth necessarily, but the more you have, the more you DO need someone purely to lead, and in general, this person doesn't need data/trigger experience. he/she just needs to be very organised, which is why i don't always agree with your big two point. i do however think it is generally true as teams start out best smaller, and grow. so initially the project leader will need some skills in triggers or data editing
commitment is almost irrelevant in terms of hours per day. everyone is different, your main commitment is to how long it takes overall. if you dont think the hours needed divided by how many hours a week works out then try something smaller or tone down the idea into something more manageable - again, this is more a point about general game making as opposed to making a team.
on a more negative note though, you really must tone down some of the stuff you say as it does just come off with you sounding like an ass. i mean the part where you compare you and your mates 'skills', it sounds like one of those cv's i sometimes get on my desk and almost die laughing at the utter bollocks people write on them to try and sound good. 'advanced' scripting, 'advanced' data editing, 10+ years experience - you really need to learn what modesty is.
I happen to think that leadership skills are the most important aspect of team recruitment. If you can't lead people you certainly can't create a team. . .
I don't really agree with the skillset weightings either. In any team, being able to communicate and work efficiently with others takes precedence over the actual skills of the members given that if you can't work together your skills are worthless. It's like pairing the best German whatever with the best Chinese whatever. Nothing happens because they don't understand each other.
I would have gone with "Doodoo Head", but dummyhead works too I guess. (Don't take that in a bad way mephs, you might be a troll but ur livestreams helped me a ton :)
Anyways, back to the point of this, Dogmai is a douche, and I have made this point in a bunch of different threads already. However, it seems that the douches always seem to come out on top somehow, so maybe from a development standpoint this isn't such a bad idea. Also, in his defense, he did say that if you have an idea but can't follow through, that you should but the idea in the "ideas" thread. Well, that makes sense, doesn't it? I mean just because you have a pretty good idea shouldn't mean that you get all the credit, if you do nothing.
A leader needs to be like a coach. A coach needs (or at least should have) played the sport at some point in their life, and have been good. In this case, they don't need to be old and not good anymore, they just need to be well rounded and know what they are talking about.
The ACTUAL big 3, IMO
Leadership Skills
Well-Rounded Skillset (Don't need to be a master, just need to know what you are talking about)
A lot of time, and a lot of personality. Time is important, but being able to say "No, you are wrong, do it this way" is important too, if things are ever going to get done in a large team. There is a difference between being assertive and bossy, however. Telling people what to do and suggesting to people what to do without leaving an alternative are two different things, if you now what I mean ;P
So that is my opinion, feel free to call me stupid or whatever.
Also Dogmai, I have noticed that you are very passive aggressive. Naming this thread "Common Sense 101" is just insulting. You attitude is insulting, and you frankly sound like a cocky jerk in all of your posts. I would fix that if I were you.
Common Sense 101 (Team Recruitment Edition)
This thread is aimed at helping you find a partner or complete team to work with, the pitfalls and highlights of such endeavours, and to help you determine realistic expectations.
The number one basic rule to finding a team.
You must bring something to the table other than ideas or concepts.
The Big Two
The Small Two
The Rest that don't really count
The Reasoning
You might be QQ right now screaming "but noes, I have ideazor!", well that is good, but unless you can do one of the big two why should anyone do the work for you so you can put your name on it and take the credit? "but waits, I share credit", then your name wouldn't be on there because you didn't do anything, hence it would not be your map.
I personally was a Terrainer before I took up scripting, I have been terraining different games for a good 16/17 years. Yes, Terraining is a big part of map polish, but not really map creation. As you can see, 90% of the Popularity List has horrendous terrain, seriously, like burn it with fire Terrain. If you want to be a Terrainer and nothing else, then join Teams already created, or offer your services to maps already made. Do not be trying to Lead a team on Terraining skills alone.
Compare me and Dryeyece and see what skills we bring to the table.
Dogmai
Dryeyece
So we are actually pretty much even, we both have design skills (Making things look good), I control the UI + Custom Art side of things, he controls the Hero + Balancing side of things. We are nearly equal in what we bring to the table in terms of skill level and commitment.
Commitment
We spend a good 10 hours a day on Skype while working on Tofu, 5 days a week, and this is at the moment the project is nearly finished. During the peak load we were communicating for 16 hours a day 7 days a week. It is hard to have someone with you all the time, ask anyone with a girlfriend, there have to be compromises sometimes, and you do not always get what you want.
Delays will happen, and you will have to learn to work around other people's abilities or lack thereof. People have real lives outside of Map Making, both Dryeyece and I made Tofu our goal, so we had to sacrifice other things in our lives to make it happen. Do not expect to be able to make an amazing map whilst going to school and/or working a full time job in a very short amount of time.
Broth
Too many cooks spoil the broth, etc etc. The more people you have in your team the more things can and will go wrong, the more inhouse bickering there will be, and the more likely the chance that the map will never ever be finished. My advice? Keep it to the bare minimum of two people, one for Data, one for Scripting, and get the rest involved (Terrain/Art etc) when the map is in Beta stage.
Showcasing your Concepts/Ideas
Never underestimate the value of showing people your work, even if it is unfinished, rough etc. It shows people you are serious, and where your skill level is at. When I first met Dryeyece, he wanted someone to help him with a Trigger problem, I went into his map and was blown away by his skill level. I showed him screenshots of my work and he wanted to click things and actually play it. Tofu at that stage was no where near finished, it was merely a working concept which I showed to him and he was like a fatman at a candy factory.
There is a difference between telling people your ideas and actually showing them a working concept regardless of how unfinished it is. You should have a very basic working concept if you are looking to recruit high-skill-level mappers and not your average nooblet.
Summary
You must either do Trigger Editing or Data Editing before asking people to join your team. Otherwise, you do not bring anything more to the table than Ideas/Concepts and should be posting in the Map Request forum and not Team Recruitment.
QQ Moar
If you are offended by what I have said, it is a fact of life that you must be offering something for other people to take you seriously. Nobody wants to carry another person, do all the work for them only to have them put their name on the finished product, what if the shoe was on the other foot?
If you cannot do one of the big two
Pick one and LEARN.
If you think its too hard to learn
We all started with Zero knowledge at one point in time.
If you do not have enough time to learn
Then you do not have enough time to make a map and thus, should post in the Map Request forum.
TL;DR
Read it all.
Suggestions / Agreements / Disagreements
Spam me below and I will update this post if appliciable.
I have only worked quite shallow on maps and mods to games (in starcraft 2 I have done only one map, but I've done all my things in my map alone, almost anyway) but I agree with you on most of these points. However you seem to underestimate the potential of "casual workers" (most likely in the category you call the rest that really don’t matter), not everything has to neither be perfect nor even that great when release is due. A casual worker or a friend or something like that can bring much to the table even if they lack experience as they can be testers and give critics (VERY important, although listening to critics is an "art", never follow it blindly). However you might not consider a tester or “small task”-doer to be a part of the “team” but finding these people can be a real pain in the ass and just because you have friends who own starcraft 2 it doesn’t mean you have free testers. The popularity system doesn’t really let you test your map either if it’s not a front pager.
Otherwise very good text ;)
In other notes, if you are a terrainer and want some work I would like to hire you for my map ;). PM me if you’re interested or want details on the map.
I like what you wrote mate, but this thread was directed at the thread creators, the people wanting to create a team, not at the people wanting to join :)
You bought up very valid points, and yes, for people wanting to join a team there are no big two or small two, every role is unique and important.
Terrain for most custom maps is crap because most custom maps are just pimped up minigames that last 5 minutes. Still, I would argue that terraining shouldn't be in the "doesn't matter" category. I've always seen it as the trinity of triggers, terrain, data (in order of importance and/or possibly my personal hatred towards some of them). Assuming of course that terraining means actual level design/creation (like blizzard does it) and not just creating a pretty postcard in some dark environment with craploads of bloom and lights.
If a project requires some serious level design, then I'd say that a terrainer has every right to be the leader of a team. Examples or (fictional!) recruitment posts:
I'd leave it to rot on page 29.
I would at least be intrigued :P
@DogmaiSEA: Go
The Rest that don't really count Terraining Concepts / Ideas Balancing Leadership Skills
....................................................................... ARE YOU KIDDING ?
You know I'm the bitch no-one likes, but seriously. Goodluck making a awesome UI / Hero and play on a plain grass map ? Concepts/Ideas, ok so you think a LOTR fanboy should work with a StarWars fanboy ? Balancing, Ok so just make 1 unit own all Leadership Skills, Well not sure on this one. But hell, you do need to stand up for your own ideas and communicate wisely.
And on the whole post. Never underestimate showing off project.. Yeah, and make another thread about some random junk bragging what you two can do + knowing that you both showed off way too early..
I'm not mad, and I'm the Dresnia that has the friendly conversations with you on mIRC aswell. But seriously man, as good as you may be your communication skills towards the forums/community are a bit wacked :P
Best of luck nonetheless, and hopefully someone is helped by this ! ♥
here is a question for this:
If im NA and i want a team mate on EU can he still open my map in the editor im having problems right now with the lack of being able to open somemaps . is this possible?
You can open maps from any region as long as the map file has been localized for all regions (otherwise text values will be invalid). That is how you can have someone from another region host a map for you in that region.
You can get a very simple localizer right here at sc2mapster:
http://forums.sc2mapster.com/resources/third-party-tools/2613-sc2-localizer/
thank you
Coming from a coder, I'm not surprised at that list that's going to incite butthurt, tbh. To be fair, I respect your opinion, but you're wrong.
If you really want a perfect map, what you need is the visionaries (ideas/concepts+leadership skills) to pick up the rough workers (data editors+coders) and the artists (UI editors+terrainers) to turn their vision to life. The reason you, as a coder, put artists and visionairies out of the league, is because you're the scientist who thinks art is pointless. You're the caveman who knows he will survive if he gathers food. In a sense I can understand that idea, as artists have a really obscure role in society and visionairies are actually workers/artists with a plan (and anyone will play that role at least once in his life). It's true that short-term, workers can survive alone while the other two can't, but that doesn't make the other two worthless.
Long story short: Workers and artists work for visionairies. Visionairies are workers or artists cast in a different role. Just two workers can make a good map, while just two visionairies or just two artists can't. Two workers can never make a great map without visionairies and artists, though.
BOOM! :P *thumbs up*
Fail.
Did you fail to read the entirety of what I wrote Mozza? You know very well that I am an artist first, that not only was I a terrainer before a scripter, but also that I am a corporate graphic designer by trade. That being said, even though I am an artist first, I cannot lead a team on concepts alone. To lead a team you need to do one of the big two, because those big two are what takes up the most man hours of map creation.
@DogmaiSEA: Go
I did, but I still disagree. You might not be able to lead a team on concepts alone, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. What I'd say is far more than being able to deliver work yourself is having general knowledge of all areas of expertise, so you have a better idea of what is possible and what not - which ultimately leads to you having better insight as to how your vision could be realized. I could name some obvious examples like how car designers and architects aren't the same people who actually build the houses/cars, but I'll just stick to stating that you cut the curve a little shortly in your OP. Just because having a vision and leading a team to put that vision to life isn't generally measured as "putting in hours" in the way that it is for raw coding/editing, it doesn't mean that it isn't worth anything.
Claiming that you shouldn't lead a team if you're only a terrainer is somewhat pointless too. You should lead a team if you have a vision you want to realize and can find people who appreciate, like and agree with that vision. You could be a garbage man for all I care. I understand your point in that a map with just terrain isn't a custom map (it's a melee map), and that there's way too many people around who can't really do anything well and just 'stick to terraining because of that' (because terraining, while probably hardest to make perfect, is easiest to get into), but that doesn't mean that someone who'se just a really good terrainer can't lead a project to realize a vision.
The reason terraining is so lowly rated on the 'GE ladder of skills' is because in usual game creation it comes hand in hand with modeling and basically creating the entire world, which is something it's been stripped off in the GE - still though, that doesn't make it as 'redundant' as people are putting it forth from time to time.
My first impression during the read was your bossy tone during the Commitment section. It sounds like you are discouraging students like myself from having fun with map making. Yes, I haven't made any great maps and only have one published publicly but I still enjoy bringing some of my ideas to life with the GE when I find the time. If putting down map making students was not your main point then why mentioned them at all, especially in a negative deliver.
I contend that the Big Two are necessary to lead a project. I know of projects ongoing right now that are being led by people who do not do either, and are still in progress. And these are projects that are going surely and steadily.
Managing and leading a project is not mutually exclusive to bringing the baseline work to the table. You can be any role and accomplish things as long as everyone in the team is on the same level and understand the ultimate goal of the project. I would say it is EASIER if you are starting a new project to have knowledge of either trigger editing or data editing and have something to show and draw attention to your project, but it's far from being the definitive source.
You can be a terrainer/level designer with no knowledge of data editing or scripting and lead. Being a sole concept guy is a lot less reliable as a leader, since there are few applicable mapping skills, but even then it is still possible.
I also contend custom art and models being the 'small two'. Most projects may not have this luxury, as it's a process that takes people with external knowledge of these programs who may not be readily available. It might not even be a factor in a large project at all.
this post is on point. if you dont do data or triggering you're useless on a project.
terraining is borderline.
Hmmm, I disagree with everyone lol. In order to lead a project, you need to bring something to the table. It doesn't have to be Data or Triggers! For me, all I need is cupcakes, and you've got yourself a worker! (That was half a joke. I REALLY like cupcakes. More than tacos even.)
Anyways, to be a leader, you need to know at least a little about everything. If your terrainer shows you the terrain, and you say "It looks good, but I don't know anything about terrain.", then that is bad. You should be able to say "Maybe lower the water a bit." and then when your trigger person comes up to you and says "How should I make the units spawn? Should I, or should the data guy do it?" The response shouldn't be "Ummm, what's a trigger?"
Get the point? You don't need to be a wizz at everything, but you need to know what does what, how it works, and what it should be used for. Especially combining triggers and data, as you can accomplish a lot of the same goals with both. Could a terrainer lead a project by himself? No, but neither could a person who only does data.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
This guide isn't really accurate. In fact, It's like reading one of the Twilight books - fictional and shitty. I don't bash tutorials, and try to give good and constructive feedback whenever I like something and want to help the creator improve it.
I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but first off - let's start with the title.
"Common sense"?
There's no common sense about it. The factors are:
Luck: If someone likes your theory, and happens to view the forum subsection while your post is still on the front page, THEY WILL JOIN.
Description: Providing a decent description.
"The Big Two" - Rename it to "The Big Four".
-Code
-Data Editing (This one seems fair enough)
-Lore
-Level Design
This is the MOST, MOST, MOST important part of any single game. How the hell did you put it under something that doesn't matter?
Google these games:
Oblivion
Morrowind
Neverwinter Nights
Counter-Strike
Rest of the TES series
Fallout series
Halo series
Fable series
Zelda series (Although, arguably, this one is based on the Lore, a component you put under "The rest that don't really count")
These are just from the top of my head!
Do you really think that unless these games could have been so successful without beautiful level design and lore?
The scripting plays an equal part in these games, but according to you, it's 3x as important as Lore and Level Design.
"The Small Two" is also almost completely incorrect.
In general games: Games would be nothing without art, so these two are equal to Lore, Code, "Data Editing" (More accurately stated as game balancing), and Level Design.
In SC2, however, those are almost not important, since the game has its' own custom art assets.
The thing is, you put art above Lore and Level Design, which is ridiculous.
I have no idea who stickied it. It was obviously a mod, but what does that say about the professionalism of this site?
Yes, I read the whole thing, but honestly it would be faster to rewrite this myself then show and explain each mistake.
I recommend taking this down from a sticky - people may actually follow this guide.
Also - I am an indie developer working with several friends on a java game. Each of us is specialized in one aspect (Which seems to be the only information this "guide" managed to get correct), so I'm not drawing straws here - It wasn't easy to find other people who were as interested in the project as me.
This post certainly seems like a hammer to the head, but It's not. If Dogmai actually fixes the above, I'll go through the whole "guide".
personally i don't really think the title reflects what half of the guide is even about, and secondly, it really should be re-worded to include the phrase 'in my opinion' as you come off sounding pretty condescending and as if every sentence you write is a fact, which frankly, it isn't =)
in regards to the guide not reflecting the title i do mean that in a positive way though, it has many good points for someone starting out map creating. e.g. trying to not get bogged down in creating terrain when really it's more about the mechanics and gameplay etc and i do generally agree with the point about only bringing ideas to the table. however, it does heavily depend on the situation. i think the poster above me (obliviron) has missed the point in all fairness, you are talking more about a team of like-minded _unpaid_ individuals coming together, he is talking more about a paid situation, for example, saying level design matters, he clearly hasn't seen a few of the high pop maps haha :D
to make this guide a little more rounded i would probably include:
good tips for starting out in general, team or no team!
points to re-word
on a more negative note though, you really must tone down some of the stuff you say as it does just come off with you sounding like an ass. i mean the part where you compare you and your mates 'skills', it sounds like one of those cv's i sometimes get on my desk and almost die laughing at the utter bollocks people write on them to try and sound good. 'advanced' scripting, 'advanced' data editing, 10+ years experience - you really need to learn what modesty is.
I happen to think that leadership skills are the most important aspect of team recruitment. If you can't lead people you certainly can't create a team. . .
I don't really agree with the skillset weightings either. In any team, being able to communicate and work efficiently with others takes precedence over the actual skills of the members given that if you can't work together your skills are worthless. It's like pairing the best German whatever with the best Chinese whatever. Nothing happens because they don't understand each other.
Also, Mephs is a dummyhead.
I would have gone with "Doodoo Head", but dummyhead works too I guess. (Don't take that in a bad way mephs, you might be a troll but ur livestreams helped me a ton :)
Anyways, back to the point of this, Dogmai is a douche, and I have made this point in a bunch of different threads already. However, it seems that the douches always seem to come out on top somehow, so maybe from a development standpoint this isn't such a bad idea. Also, in his defense, he did say that if you have an idea but can't follow through, that you should but the idea in the "ideas" thread. Well, that makes sense, doesn't it? I mean just because you have a pretty good idea shouldn't mean that you get all the credit, if you do nothing.
A leader needs to be like a coach. A coach needs (or at least should have) played the sport at some point in their life, and have been good. In this case, they don't need to be old and not good anymore, they just need to be well rounded and know what they are talking about.
The ACTUAL big 3, IMO
So that is my opinion, feel free to call me stupid or whatever.
Also Dogmai, I have noticed that you are very passive aggressive. Naming this thread "Common Sense 101" is just insulting. You attitude is insulting, and you frankly sound like a cocky jerk in all of your posts. I would fix that if I were you.
Great to be back and part of the community again!