I really dislike the "this class owns this class". It puts down so many restrictions.
First off all the obvious is you can't play 1v1, you just pick a class that has bonus damage to the other class. I assume obviously neither of you (the projects) are bothered about this as you want to emphasize team games always.
But then expanding on it, even 2v2 there are many limitations. If a team goes 2 rock heroes, the opposing team just goes 2 paper heroes. You are forced to pick a hero you might like because your ally went a certain hero or to prevent a counter hero pick.
Games like Streetfighter, imagine if I pick Ken or on Mortal Combat I pick Johny Cage and the opponent just laughs and picks 'the counter do that'. Why not give every hero a fighting chance against any hero.
I don't see the logic, as naturally Heroes would automatically fall into categories with advantages and disadvantages just based on their stats and abilities.
Obviously, I don't know TMA (Nope, no revelation of me being their terrainer =P), but in most cases every hero does have a 'fighting chance' against any other hero. Some just have an easier time against others. In most games, every class can take on every other class but there are definitely classes that the player will have an easier time against.
I really dislike the "this class owns this class". It puts down so many restrictions.
...
I don't see the logic
It's a self-balancing mechanic. While I personally like the idea too, it is a lazy approach, but it works. One hero can never become too powerful with this method. This is because if the "op" hero becomes popular, it's counter hero gains relative power because there's more of the "op" hero for it to farm.
SC2 uses this mechanism too. Think of Terran vs Zerg, for example. Say marines are slightly overtuned. The terran still can't overproduce marines to take advantage of that overtunedness, since the zerg will just produce more banelings. Likewise if banelings become overtuned, the terran will just produce less marines and their relative power diminishes.
This kind of deliberate imbalance keeps a game in motion, and while it can make 1v1 combat somewhat frustrating, having a game stagnate is much worse.
Let me explain. The one hero owns another one does not exist in TMA, yes there is an intrinsic rock, paper, scissors, counter system between the heroes but, their abilities and how they work, along with how the player uses them, and in general plays his/her hero are just as big of a factor. Myself and my partner have 1v1 matches constantly for internal testing and balancing as each hero is created etc... and I can tell you I have stomped his arse with a Light hero such as Morbius even when he had an Armored hero such as Moomba. This raises the obvious that ok that Light hero was IMBA so we swap and I get on Moomba and he gets on Morbius and I kick his ass again, clearly demonstrating not only are the two classes balanced but also that how you play it, what dps rotation you use, what items you have, and so much more are just as important as what type of hero you chose. This same occurence has happened in reverse as well where he was the one kicking my ass, its about 50/50 when the two of us fight regardless of hero choice. Now items come into play and can drastically change the playing field. Think of items like a build order, will you make this unit or that unit first, or get this upgrade or that upgrade first, It will all come into play when you meet your opponent on the battlefield.
The Starcraft example, that's more to stop just 1 unit being over mass produced as you said. It would only really apply here if teams constantly all went the same Hero. Like say 6 Pyro's per team every game. Assuming heroes cannot be picked more once per team that's already impossible thou?
But I see all your points, I would say you're leaning towards Dota as an example. Where in real competitive tournament level games only a certain few Heroes were actually picked, half of them never saw a game. However as you're making this map from scratch and with 'just' 18 heroes. Making every Hero awesome and balancing without rock/paper/scissors should be very possible? It might take a few patches/updates but you'd get there.
Let me re-emphasize my point a little bit.
Team 1 goes, Rock / Rock / Scissors
Team 2 looks at this and just counters with Paper / Paper / Rock
Mathematically Team 2 has a big advantage before the game has even started. I know someone will jump in say hey look the Scissors can take out both Papers, but if both teams play to an equal, odds are team 2 will always win?
I don't want to go on and on and on, just hope you consider it. Best of luck with the project.
If its like in Smashcraft, the rock-paper-scissors isn't there to make it impossible for one to beat another at all. In fact, it actually is to keep those heroes viable against all others.
Basically for my game, Guardians do bonus damage against Assaults because otherwise Assaults would be overpowered because they would always win against the lower damage Guardians.
The point is this: Guardians do typically lower dps overall, but have twice the HP. Vs Psions their damage is fine because psions have low HP.
Assaults typically do sustainable dps but nowhere near the burst of psions, and have moderate HP (somehwere in the middle).
Psions have the least HP but the most burst, so thus they do fine against assaults 1v1 but guardians would shit on them without it.
Its actually the perfect balance to maintain in this case. There is no such thing as hard counters. I can beat Assaults as a Psion in my game, and I can beat Psions as a Guardian. But without those bonuses against other class types, they would then stand no chance.
I agree with Mephs on the rock paper scissors mechanic. It's not that it's giving an imba towards one side it's evening it out. That means that without these rock paper scissors that the rocks would be too weak against the papers and the papers would be weak against the scissors, same for scissors with rock.
You are assuming that when you are picking your hero you can in real time see what the other guy is picking but that is not the case if it were then yes there would be a major flaw there, but like in regular old rock paper scissors you dont know what your opponent has chosen until its too late to change. So in TMA you cannot see what the other team has chosen until you have chosen yours and they have chosen theirs. During Beta testing we are going to see what kind of impact being able to change your hero will have for example in between rounds during Team Deathmatch it may be possible to change your hero, however if we allow this then you must know the other guy can do the same thing and you still will not know what he/she has chosen until the round begins, it embodies the essence of Rock Paper Scissors beautifully I think. Do not bank on the hero change being possible though as we need to test that part
Please stay on topic about discussing Project TMA instead of just trying to get in the beta. I find it that some people who want in the beta just because it's new and it's underwraps and it seems cool means they won't be good beta testers. Beta testers are supposed to do everything to find bugs and imbalances. That's why I like closed beta tests better because not every yahoo and his mother are testing it and just wasting time not reporting what they find out.
EDIT: Got a PM from Dryeyece and I'll retract my comment about asking for beta invites. But please keep it to a minimum so we can stay on topic. If you want a beta invite why not talk about the map as well :)
Relax mate, theoritically the way it is written, if it works for 1v1 it should work for a full house game, I highly doubt there will be any major bugs with the code, more so just testing for balance purposes. :)
I have a question about your interface that I'm really curious about, and I really hope you answer this.
In your video you never select any enemies. Is this because your interface is giving the stats of whoever the player has selected (in this case, your hero)? or did you create another UI to show the abilities and health of your hero, and then selecting an enemy would be in a separate area of the interface? (though obviously you would lose the ability to issue orders if your hero is not selected). Curious how this all works.
Lovely on every other front, however.
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Sounds interesting. I hope all the hard work you put into this, Dryeyece, was worth it.
Sounds awesome, look forward to playing it.
@ This project and Smashcraft
I really dislike the "this class owns this class". It puts down so many restrictions.
First off all the obvious is you can't play 1v1, you just pick a class that has bonus damage to the other class. I assume obviously neither of you (the projects) are bothered about this as you want to emphasize team games always.
But then expanding on it, even 2v2 there are many limitations. If a team goes 2 rock heroes, the opposing team just goes 2 paper heroes. You are forced to pick a hero you might like because your ally went a certain hero or to prevent a counter hero pick.
Games like Streetfighter, imagine if I pick Ken or on Mortal Combat I pick Johny Cage and the opponent just laughs and picks 'the counter do that'. Why not give every hero a fighting chance against any hero.
I don't see the logic, as naturally Heroes would automatically fall into categories with advantages and disadvantages just based on their stats and abilities.
Of course just my opinion :)
@Fullachain: Go
Obviously, I don't know TMA (Nope, no revelation of me being their terrainer =P), but in most cases every hero does have a 'fighting chance' against any other hero. Some just have an easier time against others. In most games, every class can take on every other class but there are definitely classes that the player will have an easier time against.
It's a self-balancing mechanic. While I personally like the idea too, it is a lazy approach, but it works. One hero can never become too powerful with this method. This is because if the "op" hero becomes popular, it's counter hero gains relative power because there's more of the "op" hero for it to farm.
SC2 uses this mechanism too. Think of Terran vs Zerg, for example. Say marines are slightly overtuned. The terran still can't overproduce marines to take advantage of that overtunedness, since the zerg will just produce more banelings. Likewise if banelings become overtuned, the terran will just produce less marines and their relative power diminishes.
This kind of deliberate imbalance keeps a game in motion, and while it can make 1v1 combat somewhat frustrating, having a game stagnate is much worse.
@Fullachain: Go
Mozarzed is exactly right.
Let me explain. The one hero owns another one does not exist in TMA, yes there is an intrinsic rock, paper, scissors, counter system between the heroes but, their abilities and how they work, along with how the player uses them, and in general plays his/her hero are just as big of a factor. Myself and my partner have 1v1 matches constantly for internal testing and balancing as each hero is created etc... and I can tell you I have stomped his arse with a Light hero such as Morbius even when he had an Armored hero such as Moomba. This raises the obvious that ok that Light hero was IMBA so we swap and I get on Moomba and he gets on Morbius and I kick his ass again, clearly demonstrating not only are the two classes balanced but also that how you play it, what dps rotation you use, what items you have, and so much more are just as important as what type of hero you chose. This same occurence has happened in reverse as well where he was the one kicking my ass, its about 50/50 when the two of us fight regardless of hero choice. Now items come into play and can drastically change the playing field. Think of items like a build order, will you make this unit or that unit first, or get this upgrade or that upgrade first, It will all come into play when you meet your opponent on the battlefield.
The Starcraft example, that's more to stop just 1 unit being over mass produced as you said. It would only really apply here if teams constantly all went the same Hero. Like say 6 Pyro's per team every game. Assuming heroes cannot be picked more once per team that's already impossible thou?
But I see all your points, I would say you're leaning towards Dota as an example. Where in real competitive tournament level games only a certain few Heroes were actually picked, half of them never saw a game. However as you're making this map from scratch and with 'just' 18 heroes. Making every Hero awesome and balancing without rock/paper/scissors should be very possible? It might take a few patches/updates but you'd get there.
Let me re-emphasize my point a little bit.
Team 1 goes, Rock / Rock / Scissors
Team 2 looks at this and just counters with Paper / Paper / Rock
Mathematically Team 2 has a big advantage before the game has even started. I know someone will jump in say hey look the Scissors can take out both Papers, but if both teams play to an equal, odds are team 2 will always win?
I don't want to go on and on and on, just hope you consider it. Best of luck with the project.
If its like in Smashcraft, the rock-paper-scissors isn't there to make it impossible for one to beat another at all. In fact, it actually is to keep those heroes viable against all others.
Basically for my game, Guardians do bonus damage against Assaults because otherwise Assaults would be overpowered because they would always win against the lower damage Guardians.
The point is this: Guardians do typically lower dps overall, but have twice the HP. Vs Psions their damage is fine because psions have low HP. Assaults typically do sustainable dps but nowhere near the burst of psions, and have moderate HP (somehwere in the middle). Psions have the least HP but the most burst, so thus they do fine against assaults 1v1 but guardians would shit on them without it.
Its actually the perfect balance to maintain in this case. There is no such thing as hard counters. I can beat Assaults as a Psion in my game, and I can beat Psions as a Guardian. But without those bonuses against other class types, they would then stand no chance.
I agree with Mephs on the rock paper scissors mechanic. It's not that it's giving an imba towards one side it's evening it out. That means that without these rock paper scissors that the rocks would be too weak against the papers and the papers would be weak against the scissors, same for scissors with rock.
@Fullachain: Go
You are assuming that when you are picking your hero you can in real time see what the other guy is picking but that is not the case if it were then yes there would be a major flaw there, but like in regular old rock paper scissors you dont know what your opponent has chosen until its too late to change. So in TMA you cannot see what the other team has chosen until you have chosen yours and they have chosen theirs. During Beta testing we are going to see what kind of impact being able to change your hero will have for example in between rounds during Team Deathmatch it may be possible to change your hero, however if we allow this then you must know the other guy can do the same thing and you still will not know what he/she has chosen until the round begins, it embodies the essence of Rock Paper Scissors beautifully I think. Do not bank on the hero change being possible though as we need to test that part
I'd like to volunteer for beta if you guys need more testers. This sounds like an exciting map, and I'm a big fan of custom interfaces.
Please stay on topic about discussing Project TMA instead of just trying to get in the beta. I find it that some people who want in the beta just because it's new and it's underwraps and it seems cool means they won't be good beta testers. Beta testers are supposed to do everything to find bugs and imbalances. That's why I like closed beta tests better because not every yahoo and his mother are testing it and just wasting time not reporting what they find out.
EDIT: Got a PM from Dryeyece and I'll retract my comment about asking for beta invites. But please keep it to a minimum so we can stay on topic. If you want a beta invite why not talk about the map as well :)
Relax mate, theoritically the way it is written, if it works for 1v1 it should work for a full house game, I highly doubt there will be any major bugs with the code, more so just testing for balance purposes. :)
Someone always picks I don't know. Anyways use the official thread to talk about Tofu now.
Looks very interesting, definitely going to be giving this a test in the future. Keep up the good work guys!
Why is this suddenly 'tofu discussion'?
I don't like tofu. I don't like vegetarians.
@Mozared: Go
TMA = Tofu my Assimilator?
Looks pretty and flashy, don't really have a clue about what is going on so I'll save any real comment for later!
LOL!
OT: I approve of the UI, and I'm interested to see more of the terrain, when do you think we'll get some screenies of that?
I have a question about your interface that I'm really curious about, and I really hope you answer this. In your video you never select any enemies. Is this because your interface is giving the stats of whoever the player has selected (in this case, your hero)? or did you create another UI to show the abilities and health of your hero, and then selecting an enemy would be in a separate area of the interface? (though obviously you would lose the ability to issue orders if your hero is not selected). Curious how this all works.
Lovely on every other front, however.