Thoughts? Wishes? Disappointments? Death threats? Here are mine.
The Data Editor Sucks. I could have gotten over my disgust and, instead of whining for months, learn by trial & error what most of those unintuitive, complicated, undocumented flags and options do. But I didn't, it's ideological now! Never compromise, even in the face of.. looking like a very stubborn idiot :[
The Editor overall is not as unlimited in it's possibilities as it was marketed as. It's one of the best (or THE best?) map editors, i.e. editors attached to a game that help you make maps/games similar to that game. The more you stray from the isometric perspective and RTS controls, the more you have to cheat, hack and... generally write ugly workarounds. You won't make an FPS out of it.
Seriously, stop trying to make those damned FPS, they look like crap from 1999. Stupid, stupid Blizzard for showing that ghost shooter map at blizzcon and getting everyone hyped about FPS.
Wish it wasn't so time consuming\difficult particularly the Data Editor. Takes too much time for me, I don't have enough time to make a map in it. My primary disappointment.
the fps for instance is a campaign feature (but that's still great..).. but since campaigns are not available (multiplayer campaigns mmmm :) .. well .. no multiplayer campaigns asof 1.13.3 grrr with the patching ):
it's still a good general editor/engine, but the non user friendliness and mostly the FUCK NO LAN makes it really less than it could be
lets pray for decent lobbying (lol)
or
blizz Legagy purchase (i've officially folded my tent, will not buy an extra copy) :)
The more you stray from the isometric perspective and RTS controls, the more you have to cheat, hack and... generally write ugly workarounds.
Quote:
You won't make an FPS out of it.
Quote:
Seriously, stop trying to make those damned FPS, they look like crap from 1999. Stupid, stupid Blizzard for showing that ghost shooter map at blizzcon and getting everyone hyped about FPS.
For that matter stop trying to make any game that uses non-default input until they offer a way to process user input off the network.
I only have two real regrets, coming from the War3 editor;
1) Endless layers of cliffs. If a game like Warcraft 3 supports it, then why in the hell can't Starcraft 2?
2) Why can't I roll doodads along their pitch to basically turn them on their sides? This simple option in the War3 editor allowed for HUGE, HUGE amounts of creativity - one could take a simple table doodad, pitch it on its side, copy it 20 times, and make a wooden hut out of it - with the table legs sticking out on the inside, no-one would notice. I'm disappointed with the fact that, again, something relatively simple, is not possible in the Galaxy Editor.
That said, I like most of it. It's mostly clear and it has a lot of options, moreso than the War3 editor.
Mostly dissapointments. I still can only BARELY do more stuff than I could do in wc3 editor, maybe I jsut dont know how to do mapping?
Movers are big pile of shit. I have tried couple of times to work with them, but its just a big mess. I know you can do a lot of stuff with them but they are so hard to use and sometimes you have to make several movers for different ranges!!! witch sux so hard.....I hate movers....other than that I have more or less come to accept editor as for what it is...complex, hard to use, can do many things....
According to ProzaicMuze, it's possible, but he's disappeared and nobody else has figured it out :[
Obviously I'm not a data editor, but I've played with that site operations option he mentions. I don't think it works. Afaik, it's meant for flying units to make them arch over when they take sharp turns - it doesn't work in-editor and it certainly isn't a reliable "I will turn this object 90 degrees on its side" option.
The rotation needs to be allowed (toggled) in the data editor, for any given object (some have it toggled by default, sorry don't remember the exact field name)
of course that rotation is limited :(
Not implementing the "w3 infinite cliffs" is a lag barrier issue.. it's like (mostly) every issue...
blizz stuck us online, but for it to work they have barred every lag inducing feature
so many players is a double edge sword
):
I might be mistaken, but if you want to rotate something don't you just need to use a Site Operations (rotation) actor? I think I've done this before, granted its been a while and I don't remember much so I might be wrong. It does require a decent knowledge of the data editor though.
I might be mistaken, but if you want to rotate something don't you just need to use a Site Operations (rotation) actor? I think I've done this before, granted its been a while and I don't remember much so I might be wrong. It does require a decent knowledge of the data editor though.
Works for units, doesn't work for doodads.
If anyone else wants to talk about rotating/flipping doodads, how about you use the topic I linked before? No offtopic here and the flip problem will be more visible to people only interested in data stuff :]
The editor is overwhelming as far as complexity is concerned, yet underwhelming as far as it's limitations (compared to Warcraft 3 and the hype from Blizzcon's BS).
To make a "simple" chain lightning ability, you'll need about 6 effects, 2 behaviours and validatiors and 1 button, ability and actor.
This is a single level ability. Now imagine that in an RPG environment where you have 10+ levels and you have to remake it for every level. Now multiply that by however many abilities and heroes you are making. It's better to use triggers to save time.
Re-usability: Great!
Excessive Re-usability: Time consuming.
It is also very slow. I don't know if others experience this issue, but it occurs mostly with some parts of the trigger editor and the texture browser window (especially when filtering results). Learning Galaxy might be a workaround to avoid lag, but I don't have the time to learn it at the moment.
However, it has only been around for 1 year, so I am hoping things improve in the expansion, just as it did in Warcraft 3.
Yeah, the data editor is AWFUL. I mean, with W3, even if you were a complete noob, you could get an idea by simply reading stuff around, but here? I find most of the subactors and elements inutile at most, excessively complicated and labyrinthic. Even more, trying to create a new unit or duplicating an existing one is apocalyptic. I could try try+error, but it's so huge I would need months, and I don't have that much free time. I don't think I'll try to do anything decent until I get to read some good guide.
I only have two real regrets, coming from the War3 editor;
1) Endless layers of cliffs. If a game like Warcraft 3 supports it, then
why in the hell can't Starcraft 2?
2) Why can't I roll doodads along their pitch to basically turn them on
their sides? This simple option in the War3 editor allowed for HUGE,
HUGE amounts of creativity - one could take a simple table doodad, pitch
it on its side, copy it 20 times, and make a wooden hut out of it - with
the table legs sticking out on the inside, no-one would notice. I'm
disappointed with the fact that, again, something relatively simple, is
not possible in the Galaxy Editor.
For 1), I have a "solution" that might work. It's an extended version of the already posted solution using the "hills" tool. Will probably release its map soon, and I'm already trying a second better version.
However, 2) is a pain in the ass, and makes "cheating" 1) even harder, since you can't use bridges to connect different levels using them as some sort of ramps.
1) should be customizable (there's even some raw cliff editor, which doesn't work) and 2) should be available since the very beginning :S.
In general, I prefer W3, not only because there were more models (not counting the imported ones) and a lot of races with creeps. That helped design-wise. Also, you had much more freedom (publishing sucks, btw) and the experience was generally better. It's a pity most of the people that stayed and played for all these years leaved when that 1.24b or c patch killed half of the maps that, with their authors gone since long, never got fixed.
Shall the community be back to W3, I would abandon SC2 at the speed of light.
Edit:
Also, the water. It's simply terrible. I mean, why are the water squares that big? and why can't I put 2 different waters over each other? (for example, make water evaporate to raise lava from under it).
Galaxy Editor is a testament to the level of crap Blizzard is willing to shovel onto their player base these days. In their fervor to please professional game developers they left their casual mapping community in the dust (the community that supported Starcraft and Warcraft III I might add). As a result we have a couple of well-made maps that don't last more than 20 minutes before the authors gave up on them and a whole slew of garbage (so much that there is actually a tug of war genre because nobody know how to make anything else).
- Data Editor is incoherent and overly complicated
- Making new actors is an exercise in frustration; even duplicating an existing actor completely breaks it and requires revising every model and effect for it.
- Time to make a hero in Warcraft III: about 20 minutes. Time to make a hero in Starcraft II? Hope you don't have any weekend plans.
- No non-linear upgrade paths for abilities (+1 damage at level 1, +20 damage at level 5)
- Hardly any models for players to make anything creative with.
- Custom abilities are nearly impossible to make for casual mappers.
The only nice thing I can really say about Galaxy Editor is that the trigger editor is much improved over World Editor's.
Actually the Galaxy Editor is incredibly powerful, and surprisingly easy to use once you get the hang of it. You can make a much more customized hero in SC2 in 50 minutes, then in WC3, where it would take 20 minutes, but much less customized.
I personally do not know much about WC3, but I have messed around with the editor and know that the SC2 Galaxy Editor is MUCH better.
Actually the Galaxy Editor is incredibly powerful, and surprisingly easy to use once you get the hang of it. You can make a much more customized hero in SC2 in 50 minutes, then in WC3, where it would take 20 minutes, but much less customized.
I personally do not know much about WC3, but I have messed around with the editor and know that the SC2 Galaxy Editor is MUCH better.
I don't disagree that it is capable of more. My belief is that the level of unnecessary complications tossed into Galaxy Editor has made it more of a chore to use than a joy.
In Warcraft III you could duplicate a unit and then change all of its stats (weapon graphics, damage, abilities, missiles, models, etc.) from a single pane. While you can potentially make more complex units in Starcraft II, actually creating them is such a drag that I don't believe most sane people have the drive to actually finish a big project.
If Galaxy Editor had an Ability, Upgrade, and Unit wizard we might see some really interesting content on battle.net again.
Well, it's not technically it's birthday, since we don't know when Blizzard... gave birth to it.
Anyway, It's been a year since the beta patch that included the editor came out.
Thoughts? Wishes? Disappointments? Death threats? Here are mine.
The Data Editor Sucks. I could have gotten over my disgust and, instead of whining for months, learn by trial & error what most of those unintuitive, complicated, undocumented flags and options do. But I didn't, it's ideological now! Never compromise, even in the face of.. looking like a very stubborn idiot :[
The Editor overall is not as unlimited in it's possibilities as it was marketed as. It's one of the best (or THE best?) map editors, i.e. editors attached to a game that help you make maps/games similar to that game. The more you stray from the isometric perspective and RTS controls, the more you have to cheat, hack and... generally write ugly workarounds. You won't make an FPS out of it.
Seriously, stop trying to make those damned FPS, they look like crap from 1999. Stupid, stupid Blizzard for showing that ghost shooter map at blizzcon and getting everyone hyped about FPS.
P.S. GATEWAY_DOWN, FU!
P.P.S. Where's this documentation?!
Wish it wasn't so time consuming\difficult particularly the Data Editor. Takes too much time for me, I don't have enough time to make a map in it. My primary disappointment.
i agree with you Tolkfan
the fps for instance is a campaign feature (but that's still great..).. but since campaigns are not available (multiplayer campaigns mmmm :) .. well .. no multiplayer campaigns asof 1.13.3 grrr with the patching ):
it's still a good general editor/engine, but the non user friendliness and mostly the FUCK NO LAN makes it really less than it could be
lets pray for decent lobbying (lol)
or
blizz Legagy purchase (i've officially folded my tent, will not buy an extra copy) :)
cheer up
For that matter stop trying to make any game that uses non-default input until they offer a way to process user input off the network.
I only have two real regrets, coming from the War3 editor;
1) Endless layers of cliffs. If a game like Warcraft 3 supports it, then why in the hell can't Starcraft 2?
2) Why can't I roll doodads along their pitch to basically turn them on their sides? This simple option in the War3 editor allowed for HUGE, HUGE amounts of creativity - one could take a simple table doodad, pitch it on its side, copy it 20 times, and make a wooden hut out of it - with the table legs sticking out on the inside, no-one would notice. I'm disappointed with the fact that, again, something relatively simple, is not possible in the Galaxy Editor.
That said, I like most of it. It's mostly clear and it has a lot of options, moreso than the War3 editor.
According to ProzaicMuze, it's possible, but he's disappeared and nobody else has figured it out :[
Already one year? I want my time back >.>
Mostly dissapointments. I still can only BARELY do more stuff than I could do in wc3 editor, maybe I jsut dont know how to do mapping?
Movers are big pile of shit. I have tried couple of times to work with them, but its just a big mess. I know you can do a lot of stuff with them but they are so hard to use and sometimes you have to make several movers for different ranges!!! witch sux so hard.....I hate movers....other than that I have more or less come to accept editor as for what it is...complex, hard to use, can do many things....
Obviously I'm not a data editor, but I've played with that site operations option he mentions. I don't think it works. Afaik, it's meant for flying units to make them arch over when they take sharp turns - it doesn't work in-editor and it certainly isn't a reliable "I will turn this object 90 degrees on its side" option.
Everyday since the beta editors launch has just taken away more hope.
The rotation needs to be allowed (toggled) in the data editor, for any given object (some have it toggled by default, sorry don't remember the exact field name)
of course that rotation is limited :(
Not implementing the "w3 infinite cliffs" is a lag barrier issue.. it's like (mostly) every issue...
blizz stuck us online, but for it to work they have barred every lag inducing feature
so many players is a double edge sword
):
I might be mistaken, but if you want to rotate something don't you just need to use a Site Operations (rotation) actor? I think I've done this before, granted its been a while and I don't remember much so I might be wrong. It does require a decent knowledge of the data editor though.
Works for units, doesn't work for doodads.
If anyone else wants to talk about rotating/flipping doodads, how about you use the topic I linked before? No offtopic here and the flip problem will be more visible to people only interested in data stuff :]
The editor is overwhelming as far as complexity is concerned, yet underwhelming as far as it's limitations (compared to Warcraft 3 and the hype from Blizzcon's BS).
To make a "simple" chain lightning ability, you'll need about 6 effects, 2 behaviours and validatiors and 1 button, ability and actor.
This is a single level ability. Now imagine that in an RPG environment where you have 10+ levels and you have to remake it for every level. Now multiply that by however many abilities and heroes you are making. It's better to use triggers to save time.
Re-usability: Great!
Excessive Re-usability: Time consuming.
It is also very slow. I don't know if others experience this issue, but it occurs mostly with some parts of the trigger editor and the texture browser window (especially when filtering results). Learning Galaxy might be a workaround to avoid lag, but I don't have the time to learn it at the moment.
However, it has only been around for 1 year, so I am hoping things improve in the expansion, just as it did in Warcraft 3.
Happy birthday dear editor! May you yet grow into a tool of great usefulness!
Yeah, the data editor is AWFUL. I mean, with W3, even if you were a complete noob, you could get an idea by simply reading stuff around, but here? I find most of the subactors and elements inutile at most, excessively complicated and labyrinthic. Even more, trying to create a new unit or duplicating an existing one is apocalyptic. I could try try+error, but it's so huge I would need months, and I don't have that much free time. I don't think I'll try to do anything decent until I get to read some good guide.
For 1), I have a "solution" that might work. It's an extended version of the already posted solution using the "hills" tool. Will probably release its map soon, and I'm already trying a second better version.
However, 2) is a pain in the ass, and makes "cheating" 1) even harder, since you can't use bridges to connect different levels using them as some sort of ramps.
1) should be customizable (there's even some raw cliff editor, which doesn't work) and 2) should be available since the very beginning :S.
In general, I prefer W3, not only because there were more models (not counting the imported ones) and a lot of races with creeps. That helped design-wise. Also, you had much more freedom (publishing sucks, btw) and the experience was generally better. It's a pity most of the people that stayed and played for all these years leaved when that 1.24b or c patch killed half of the maps that, with their authors gone since long, never got fixed.
Shall the community be back to W3, I would abandon SC2 at the speed of light.
Edit:
Also, the water. It's simply terrible. I mean, why are the water squares that big? and why can't I put 2 different waters over each other? (for example, make water evaporate to raise lava from under it).
Yay, happy bday to the editor. I don't know if you guys remember, but I actually was the first person to have the Editor, ever, :).
Galaxy Editor is a testament to the level of crap Blizzard is willing to shovel onto their player base these days. In their fervor to please professional game developers they left their casual mapping community in the dust (the community that supported Starcraft and Warcraft III I might add). As a result we have a couple of well-made maps that don't last more than 20 minutes before the authors gave up on them and a whole slew of garbage (so much that there is actually a tug of war genre because nobody know how to make anything else).
- Data Editor is incoherent and overly complicated
- Making new actors is an exercise in frustration; even duplicating an existing actor completely breaks it and requires revising every model and effect for it.
- Time to make a hero in Warcraft III: about 20 minutes. Time to make a hero in Starcraft II? Hope you don't have any weekend plans.
- No non-linear upgrade paths for abilities (+1 damage at level 1, +20 damage at level 5)
- Hardly any models for players to make anything creative with.
- Custom abilities are nearly impossible to make for casual mappers.
The only nice thing I can really say about Galaxy Editor is that the trigger editor is much improved over World Editor's.
@Lucavious: Go
Actually the Galaxy Editor is incredibly powerful, and surprisingly easy to use once you get the hang of it. You can make a much more customized hero in SC2 in 50 minutes, then in WC3, where it would take 20 minutes, but much less customized.
I personally do not know much about WC3, but I have messed around with the editor and know that the SC2 Galaxy Editor is MUCH better.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
I don't disagree that it is capable of more. My belief is that the level of unnecessary complications tossed into Galaxy Editor has made it more of a chore to use than a joy.
In Warcraft III you could duplicate a unit and then change all of its stats (weapon graphics, damage, abilities, missiles, models, etc.) from a single pane. While you can potentially make more complex units in Starcraft II, actually creating them is such a drag that I don't believe most sane people have the drive to actually finish a big project.
If Galaxy Editor had an Ability, Upgrade, and Unit wizard we might see some really interesting content on battle.net again.