It's funny you say that. Perhaps it is you guys who have the incorrect perspective? What I'm getting at is this whole you think we're wrong and you're right argument. That is so childish. The truth is we both can be right. This isn't science bro.
I agree... I have been through too many arguments about this subject. I really don't feel like going through the paces again because it goes nowhere and just stirs drama. But at least try to see the OP from that perspective, as it will help understand a lot of the subject matter a lot easier I think.
In most games the lines are very clearly drawn. In SoaSE for example, the developers officially support both modding and mapping. Hell..
.. But with wc3 and sc2 the lines have been blurred, because Blizzard does not officially support their editors, and in sc2 the functionality we as modders depended on to make our content are now rendered illegal. But the environments are still there. What ultimately matters is that people are able to create their custom content and deliver it in a meaningful manner that reaches its original goals. With sc2 that is still possible, just not viable.
I apologize if I come off elitist or aggressive or anything like that.
The only advantage I'm seeing is the possibility of muliplayer maps without the 10MB limit, and I'm not convinced that Blizzard's Warden would just allow you to connect and play with a client that's had extensive MPQ edits. Who's going to play a mod that says "well, you might get banned for doing this"? And there'd still be no way to switch maps in multiplayer, mod or no mod.
Everything else is perfectly doable inside the editor. The only exception is "modifying elements outside of the map", but what are those exactly? The battle.net menus? What would be the point in modding them? The whole campaign is contained in a very large map file that opens other maps files on command.
All this seems like modding for the sake of modding...
And here we touch on the big problem with modding sc2 - Blizzard monitors the mpqs and RAM usage, and this is why it's not viable. And yes, I personally would love to take a crack at modifying the menus of battle.net and the main screen if I were making a conversion for sc2. It completes the feel and polish of the project. The no size limit and not being restricted to individual maps are really that inviting when you make a huge amount of assets for your project, and you'd like the freedom to play it on a variety of maps without fooling around with them before hand.
And here we touch on the big problem with modding sc2 - Blizzard monitors the mpqs and RAM usage, and this is why it's not viable. And yes, I personally would love to take a crack at modifying the menus of battle.net and the main screen if I were making a conversion for sc2. It completes the feel and polish of the project. The no size limit and not being restricted to individual maps are really that inviting when you make a huge amount of assets for your project, and you'd like the freedom to play it on a variety of maps without fooling around with them before hand.
Modifying battle.net menus is rather pointless, since they're only for multiplayer stuff. The method I mentioned earlier will bypass all that nonsense with logging into battle.net and just load your own custom UI. The only thing that would remain of vanilla SC2 is Raynor's sweaty face on the initial loading screen.
I think this is the method that people were discussing to load campaigns, wasn't it? Someone suggested this to me before, or something similar, to load a lobby map that then linked to a bunch of maps locally hosted on the person's computer, thus bypassing battle.net's limitations/censorship. Yeah, this is does work and I really like it. It doesn't let you load a mod globally across the game but it basically opens the way to making full-fledged campaigns.
As for his sweaty face.... mmmm.
It's possible you could create a lobby map that links to a variety of melee maps, all linked to a locally-hosted mod file that would otherwise exceed the battle.net limitations. A workaround that has some merit indeed. It wouldn't work for multiplayer though, as you said. Which is unfortunate because almost every mod I can immediately think of is based around multiplayer play. But it's certainly a step forward.
If there was LAN none of this would ever be a problem.
Perhapds I should have included SERIOUS AND MATURE DISCUSSION before Karawasa started calling me and IskatuMesk elitist assholes.
I certainly didn't want to start an argument on mapping > modding and start a whole flame war on the topic, I really, really, really, really thought people on SC2Mapster would act a little bit more like... grown ups? unlike other communities.
I'll quote a few stuff post by post relevant to the discussion.
"Yes, illegal. No surprise there, though."
Nope, none at all, in fact, I merely proposed the questions and tried to make everyone else think about them and answer them and discuss, I myself do know how to mod, do know it's illegal and do know what really defines a mod.
"What is the advantage of modifying MPQs instead of using the editor?"
To start with, you'll cut off the retarded 10MB limit. That is an absolutely ridiculous file size, even "minor conversions" for SC1 were bigger than 10MB.
As to your link, that just loads a map. When you stop playing it it will be gone, a mod should stay, and remain in a cross-map environment, a mod's like completely changing a SC2 game type, for example melee becomes something else, melee could become anything and you could play many melee maps, from Kulas Ravine to Lost Temple and you'd have the same gameplay, the mod's one.
"Let's not forget some people also come from SC1 in the 90s through war3 for the last 7 years and now SC2 to know what modding is or what you mean. Most of what refers to as 'Mod' is hacked. For instance, Diablo 2 Eastern Sun was a mod - hacked Diablo2, there was hacked broodwar that used war2 images they are not models right? "
No no, modding should never be confused with hacking. In reality, yeah, a mod could be classified as a hack, in terms that it usually involves editing hardcoded engine functions, or completely recreates a different game with an engine, though, a mod would never, should never and it's impossible to take it to your advantage.
The functionality of mods (and not even in SC2) forbids it. A user with a mod on cannot play with a user without it, cause they'd just desync. If it can be used to take advantage,say in melee league, and somehow someone connects to another user without the mod and uses a mod to their advantage then that's hacking. Evil hacking. I do not like it (personally) and do not support it in anyway.
"Almost any modification you think need to be done via modding file now can be done via the map system."
"Maybe the dictatorship of the map publication changed your perspective a bit."
Yes, everything is "possible" to some point with the editor which is why I asked the question "where does mapping end?" And yes, the map publication dictatorship redefines the concept we used to have on modding.
" It sounds quite elitist honestly to distinguish between mapping and modding like you (OP) do."
You're misinterpreting the information I posted. I was merely starting a discussion on MODDING and modding only, not if modding is superior and every modder is to be considered god and thus making me an elitist asshole. Is it elisit to make a difference between TDs and RPGs? No, right? Why? Because they both achieve different things and have different objectives. Same goes with modding and mapping.
keyeszx +1
"A mod can be run on battle.net in Starcraft 2, and I was running mods as early as a week into beta."
Yep, same here.
"You should have just asked me, bro. Almost no one here even knows what a mod even is. To make a mod in sc2 you just add files to the patch mpq with the directory having the highest number. Bingo, instant mod."
Mesk +1, and yeah I know that is the dark art of modding ;o
OusiderXE +9001, That's basically it.
:Insert posts talking about nuclear reactors, elitist assholes, ignorant fools, ponies and nude natalie portman here:
lol.
"Everything else is perfectly doable inside the editor. The only exception is "modifying elements outside of the map", but what are those exactly? The battle.net menus? What would be the point in modding them? The whole campaign is contained in a very large map file that opens other maps files on command."
That's the real beauty in a total conversion/modification, how far can you actually go with it. Imagine you're making a pony mod. You're going to want your battle.net menus all pinky and butterfly-y and not... tychus...
Though, let's go out of the box and think this "elements outside of the map" do not extend to just battle.net menus.
"If there was LAN none of this would ever be a problem."
Amen.
Perhapds I should have included SERIOUS AND MATURE DISCUSSION before Karawasa started calling me and IskatuMesk elitist assholes.
I certainly didn't want to start an argument on mapping > modding and start a whole flame war on the topic, I really, really, really, really thought people on SC2Mapster would act a little bit more like... grown ups? unlike other communities.
First of all, I lol'd.
Funny that I find it just as immature to bring up an issue that was already settled. Calling someone out directly after the fact is a recipe for continued derailment, surely you in your infinite maturity know this. Also, I encourage you to practice reading comprehension in an effort to be less biased. I don't recall mentioning you at any point? This sounds to me like personalization, in which case it's your own damn problem. Finally, maybe you should read what IskatuMesk actually posted that prompted such reaction.
" It sounds quite elitist honestly to distinguish between mapping and modding like you (OP) do."
:/
Dunno man, maybe you're right and I can't practice reading comprehension. Maybe you shoul also actually read the rest of the post so you could have actually contributed to the topic since, so far, you haven't.
Please, please, if you have nothing to say about the topic refrain from posting on it, I never wanted it to turn into a flame wars and unlike what I'm feeling from you I actually want to have this discussion with expertise people on the subject thus I don't want it derailed and have it closed.
And mesk asked you if you were for real, you could've just ignored it or replied "yes" to clear him out of his doubt.
" It sounds quite elitist honestly to distinguish between mapping and modding like you (OP) do."
:/
In my book, there is a big difference between elitist and elitist asshole. Mainly, the asshole part. But, I'll spare the thread for you and leave it at that. Surely you realize by now, that the real topic at hand is a dead end. It's already been established that what you want to do is squarely against the ToS and would definitely get you banned. So, what is there to discuss?
Your entire post is basically a single string of fecal matter. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all, sir. I recommend you stop and walk away.
Oh really? Have you ever seen Diablo 2 Eastern Sun and SC1 with warcraft 2 buildings? I believe this is right mod according to your definitions, and as for legality I Wouldn't say so.
I always consider mapping is making melee map that use the rules or sc2 or just drawing nice terrain, while modding involves those tasks and any other changes to the gameplay/visual. Maybe the dictatorship of the map publication changed your perspective a bit.
+1
Mapping = making maps (for which you don't need to open the data or trigger editor)
Modding = making modifications to gameplay, modifications to artwork etc. I.e making modifications.
Just because you have an interface that makes it easier, doesn't mean it's not modding. Modding is not some 'elite' thing that only kiddies that think they are hackers can do because they are editing MPQ files directly.
Hell I used to have to put in way more effort editing LUA and writing mod files for Supreme Commander, to do less complex things that you can do directly in the SC2 Editor.
Modding is not directly related to complexity if you ask me, it really just comes down to what you consider modifications are. Do you consider new gameplay elements modifications? New models, sounds, assets?
The difference with mapping is you are not adding anything new, not modifying anything, you are just displaying the terrain and existing assets in a different way.
Mapping and Modding are two different things in general, but Blizzard has done a good (albeit confusing!) job of blurring the lines between the two.
When it comes down to it, Mapping is the creation of maps. You usually have access to proprietary assets and using a level editing program (the editor) you can create an environment. Sometimes, tools are provided to add scripts or triggered events to the maps.
Modding is the modification of a game. This has always been a hazy subject when trying to define exactly what is considered a mod, as it covers a very broad range. At its simplest concept, Modding usually refers to something that changes the core gameplay of a game. Even this definition covers a broad range, as it could be something simple like 'big head mode' or it could mean a complete total conversion. There aren't any hard rules regarding what a Mod is, other than that it is a modification of a game.
So where do maps like DOTA fit into the overall scheme? Is it a Map? Is it a Mod? Well, it can be both. I see DOTA as being interchangable as a map or a mod. I don't think Blizzard has used a specific term for it either, usually addressing it as it is, DOTA. I think it is folly to put a hard line separating Maps and Mods. Unless Blizzard comes out and says specifically what the guidelines are, I don't think it's going to be a big issue determining one from another. We're past the point where that matters, and it's easier to refer to a map or mod by its name rather than its intended format.
PS - What's with all the egos in this thread? Leave it at the door!
Thank you for this post (and thank you to people who actually engaged in the discussion).
i felt so alone, no one ever discusses real topics (on any site).
We should all be sorry that "some" people don't know what discussing stuff is about...("against Terms of usage' to discuss things too?) (this has been discussed already... useless counterproductive blablabla)
Mods were illegal from the start, they had to be tolerated because of lan.
The editors were "given" to the players because the publishers wanted more exposure, wanted their game to outdo the other games etc..
i for one felt so happy/surprised when blizz outed the galaxy editor (in our day and age, i would not have bet on it, i was thrilled to be proven wrong).
However, the artificial limitations mostly, the lack of "catering" to the modding community and the lack of lan has spelled a curious "intermediate" fall out.
All of these things are due to strategic decisions from the publisher.. nothing has changed there from 25 years ago,
but discussing the matter is really still allowed. :)
i'm not on par with most of the mapmakers (mappers modders.. don't really care about the distinction), just because i have a life and i'm not in a hurry.. i bought it (feeling all exited) thinking: in 4 years i'll be able to do "any" game with this editor :) .
However, i am very astonished by the lack of discussion on sc2m.. or indeed any site.
Mapmakers are all really defensive or arrogant... they feel condescending one liners are what forums should be filled with.. i don't.
The terms of services, the no lan, the "outside" of the editor (what i'd call the "immersion"), the single vs the multiplayer... those are among myriads of subjects that have infinite discussion potential, and this for everyone's benefit...
Anyway, i said i was gone and i'll keep to it.
The general "conservatism" " fanboyism" "useless condescending and aggressive behavior " "no noobs need even try" ..etc, are really too boring and useless to bear, for such a low reward/effort ratio.
But the op (and brief and scarce ensuing discussion) made me feel good, so i had to thank you guys for it.
ps: This used to be a community of makers, it's now much less than that :(
Oh really? Have you ever seen Diablo 2 Eastern Sun and SC1 with warcraft 2 buildings? I believe this is right mod according to your definitions, and as for legality I Wouldn't say so.
Yes, I was a diablo 2 modder, I know well of Eastern Sun. I also did more to Brood War than just change the graphics of buildings. I entirely overhauled the game in over a dozen total conversions. Comparing them to hacks is unfair and I find that remark extremely offensive.
Dota is just a map because its elements are confined to a single map. A mod, or a conversion if you prefer, applies to every map so long as it is active.
So what would we call a project that is loaded and change all of the elements of the game on every map if not a mod? A conversion? I have no attachment to the name, I just want to avoid confusion. I think defining lines is extremely important.
/edit
Let's say I load a mod in warcraft 3 with mpqdraft that changes the Paladin's voice acting. This will be effective in both dota and a melee map, say Echo Isles. However, the elements of Dota, like its triggers, items, ect. won't be effective in Echo Isles because they are contained in just the map. Even though Echo Isles plays entirely different than, say, an island map, and completely changes the gameplay as a result, they are both still just maps. Castle Fight and Dota are entirely different maps that totally change the gameplay, but they're still just maps because the elements are restricted to the individual maps.
But that mod that changes the unit's voice acting, or graphics, or whatever else, will be active on all of those maps so long as the mod is active.
Most games that have these kinds of custom content very clearly define the boundaries between them by providing a means to load the mods globally. In that screenshot I posted above, Sins of a Solar Empire has a mod loader that basically looks into a directory and sees folders in it with content listed in them not unlike the import menu of a map in GalaxyEdit. However, unlike a map in GalaxyEdit that contains triggers and data only for that map, when you load one of those mods in SoaSE it changes the entire game on every single map you play on until you deactivate it. Similar loaders exist for games like Age of Wonders 2: Shadow Magic, Dawn of War, Supreme Commander... but not Starcraft 2, Warcraft 3, or Brood War. Thus the necessity for third party programs.
But because Starcraft 2 is entirely built around Battle.net and has no such interface to globally load the data, mods fall under blizzard's moderation against any nature of mpq changes, and Warden monitors your RAM usage so mpqdraft would be seen. Blizzard is so detached from the custom community they wouldn't give half a damn what you're doing if they see that, you're just banned.
A simple interface like the one for SoaSE I showed above would cause pretty much every issue related to this subject to evaporate. Buuut... good luck seeing that ever.
I realize that if you aren't familiar with the concept it probably doesn't seem like a big deal to you. But I've spent the last 11 years modding games... so yeah. I feel pretty strongly about it. Though, to be honest, I wouldn't mod starcraft 2 even if the power was there. I'm not fond of the engine. I'm just attempting to clarify the subject.
I think there is still so much so explore inside the editor before we go and modify the game on the outside. People have barely created the RPGs, Shooters, Minigames and WHatnots they have dreamed about, and most don't think to find it necessary to modify the game on the outside. The only thing I've seen so far are the Custom UI Layouts.
(Let's just respect the OP's definition of modding and go by it for now :P. It's just a word).
Dota is just a map because its elements are confined to a single map. A mod, or a conversion if you prefer, applies to every map so long as it is active.
I don't really agree with this, and you could easily take DoTA across multiple different maps (hell, people do). The fact that the concept has be made in to standalone games should be enough evidence to warrant calling it a mod.
At the end of the day it purely comes down to which definition of modding you want to use.
Mods are made by the general public or a developer, and can be entirely new games in themselves, but mods are not standalone software and require the user to have the original release in order to run. They can include new items, weapons, characters, enemies, models, textures, levels, story lines, music, and game modes.
Mods that add new content to the underlying game are often called partial conversions, while mods that create an entirely new game are called total conversions and mods that fix bugs are called unofficial patches.
At the very least, most custom maps should be considered partial conversion mods. The fact that we have tools to create these modes (SC2 editor) is irrelevant.
Coming from RA3 modding, my opinions of modding are these:
The lowest level of modding is creating a simple melee map. It doesn't change anything about the game.
The second level is creating a map with some triggers, trying to change something. No real unit modification, a lot more of ''Unit goes here, spawn unit here''. In SC2 however, this also includes unit modification and anything we can do in the editor.
Then it's total conversion mods. Mods that completely change the game. These should be compatible with all melee maps (Even if I create a CnC mod that doesn't use minerals, I should still be able to load up Metalopolis and use the mod in it). They should be loaded up at game start and continue until you reload the game. You can also only play with people who are also using that mod.
I would personally like to see full support of TCMs from blizzard. This will allow player A to create a great RTS mod (Perhaps a CnC style one) and a single map for it. Then other people to create a map for that mod, upload it and use it. Preferably we should also be able to add in a ladder system where we can use matchmaking to find players (Shouldn't be too hard. Just use the coding for the ladder that we already have and add a seperate league for it, with a different MMR).
I don't really agree with this, and you could easily take DoTA across multiple different maps (hell, people do). The fact that the concept has be made in to standalone games should be enough evidence to warrant calling it a mod.
Well, the thing is, calling it a map is calling the environment a map. It doesn't really matter how "big" the map is in its content, if the content is still limited to a map it's still just a map. The fact that there are a billion copycats don't really impact that original map. Dota is a really popular map, popular enough for all these clones, but in itself it's still an individual map that isn't totally changing every other map you play on. You can take the elements and make something more out of it, but on its own that's what it is.
Man, I didn't think it would be that complicated to explain. There's not really much else I can say... I give up. :\
Well, the thing is, calling it a map is calling the environment a map. It doesn't really matter how "big" the map is in its content, if the content is still limited to a map it's still just a map.
Your missing the point, there is much more to DoTA than the map. In fact you can not create a DoTA map with just mapping. I never said anything about how big the map is, but DoTA involves heavy trigger work and lots of data editor modifications.
Whether it's 1 map or more is irrelevant, a mod doesn't HAVE to be a total conversion that works with multiple maps.
Even if you think it does, you could easily take DoTA, modify the map and have the same game mechanics. I.e. It's a mod even by your own definition.
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I agree... I have been through too many arguments about this subject. I really don't feel like going through the paces again because it goes nowhere and just stirs drama. But at least try to see the OP from that perspective, as it will help understand a lot of the subject matter a lot easier I think.
In most games the lines are very clearly drawn. In SoaSE for example, the developers officially support both modding and mapping. Hell..
.. But with wc3 and sc2 the lines have been blurred, because Blizzard does not officially support their editors, and in sc2 the functionality we as modders depended on to make our content are now rendered illegal. But the environments are still there. What ultimately matters is that people are able to create their custom content and deliver it in a meaningful manner that reaches its original goals. With sc2 that is still possible, just not viable.
I apologize if I come off elitist or aggressive or anything like that.
And here we touch on the big problem with modding sc2 - Blizzard monitors the mpqs and RAM usage, and this is why it's not viable. And yes, I personally would love to take a crack at modifying the menus of battle.net and the main screen if I were making a conversion for sc2. It completes the feel and polish of the project. The no size limit and not being restricted to individual maps are really that inviting when you make a huge amount of assets for your project, and you'd like the freedom to play it on a variety of maps without fooling around with them before hand.
@IskatuMesk: Go
Fair enough. Let's leave it at that. I should apologize too as I'm certain I came off as an asshole.
Modifying battle.net menus is rather pointless, since they're only for multiplayer stuff. The method I mentioned earlier will bypass all that nonsense with logging into battle.net and just load your own custom UI. The only thing that would remain of vanilla SC2 is Raynor's sweaty face on the initial loading screen.
@Tolkfan: Go
I think this is the method that people were discussing to load campaigns, wasn't it? Someone suggested this to me before, or something similar, to load a lobby map that then linked to a bunch of maps locally hosted on the person's computer, thus bypassing battle.net's limitations/censorship. Yeah, this is does work and I really like it. It doesn't let you load a mod globally across the game but it basically opens the way to making full-fledged campaigns.
As for his sweaty face.... mmmm.
It's possible you could create a lobby map that links to a variety of melee maps, all linked to a locally-hosted mod file that would otherwise exceed the battle.net limitations. A workaround that has some merit indeed. It wouldn't work for multiplayer though, as you said. Which is unfortunate because almost every mod I can immediately think of is based around multiplayer play. But it's certainly a step forward.
If there was LAN none of this would ever be a problem.
First of all, I lol'd.
Perhapds I should have included SERIOUS AND MATURE DISCUSSION before Karawasa started calling me and IskatuMesk elitist assholes.
I certainly didn't want to start an argument on mapping > modding and start a whole flame war on the topic, I really, really, really, really thought people on SC2Mapster would act a little bit more like... grown ups? unlike other communities.
I'll quote a few stuff post by post relevant to the discussion.
"Yes, illegal. No surprise there, though." Nope, none at all, in fact, I merely proposed the questions and tried to make everyone else think about them and answer them and discuss, I myself do know how to mod, do know it's illegal and do know what really defines a mod.
"What is the advantage of modifying MPQs instead of using the editor?" To start with, you'll cut off the retarded 10MB limit. That is an absolutely ridiculous file size, even "minor conversions" for SC1 were bigger than 10MB. As to your link, that just loads a map. When you stop playing it it will be gone, a mod should stay, and remain in a cross-map environment, a mod's like completely changing a SC2 game type, for example melee becomes something else, melee could become anything and you could play many melee maps, from Kulas Ravine to Lost Temple and you'd have the same gameplay, the mod's one.
"Let's not forget some people also come from SC1 in the 90s through war3 for the last 7 years and now SC2 to know what modding is or what you mean. Most of what refers to as 'Mod' is hacked. For instance, Diablo 2 Eastern Sun was a mod - hacked Diablo2, there was hacked broodwar that used war2 images they are not models right? " No no, modding should never be confused with hacking. In reality, yeah, a mod could be classified as a hack, in terms that it usually involves editing hardcoded engine functions, or completely recreates a different game with an engine, though, a mod would never, should never and it's impossible to take it to your advantage. The functionality of mods (and not even in SC2) forbids it. A user with a mod on cannot play with a user without it, cause they'd just desync. If it can be used to take advantage,say in melee league, and somehow someone connects to another user without the mod and uses a mod to their advantage then that's hacking. Evil hacking. I do not like it (personally) and do not support it in anyway.
"Almost any modification you think need to be done via modding file now can be done via the map system." "Maybe the dictatorship of the map publication changed your perspective a bit." Yes, everything is "possible" to some point with the editor which is why I asked the question "where does mapping end?" And yes, the map publication dictatorship redefines the concept we used to have on modding.
" It sounds quite elitist honestly to distinguish between mapping and modding like you (OP) do." You're misinterpreting the information I posted. I was merely starting a discussion on MODDING and modding only, not if modding is superior and every modder is to be considered god and thus making me an elitist asshole. Is it elisit to make a difference between TDs and RPGs? No, right? Why? Because they both achieve different things and have different objectives. Same goes with modding and mapping.
keyeszx +1
"A mod can be run on battle.net in Starcraft 2, and I was running mods as early as a week into beta." Yep, same here.
"You should have just asked me, bro. Almost no one here even knows what a mod even is. To make a mod in sc2 you just add files to the patch mpq with the directory having the highest number. Bingo, instant mod." Mesk +1, and yeah I know that is the dark art of modding ;o
OusiderXE +9001, That's basically it.
:
Insert posts talking about nuclear reactors, elitist assholes, ignorant fools, ponies and nude natalie portman here: lol."Everything else is perfectly doable inside the editor. The only exception is "modifying elements outside of the map", but what are those exactly? The battle.net menus? What would be the point in modding them? The whole campaign is contained in a very large map file that opens other maps files on command."
That's the real beauty in a total conversion/modification, how far can you actually go with it. Imagine you're making a pony mod. You're going to want your battle.net menus all pinky and butterfly-y and not... tychus... Though, let's go out of the box and think this "elements outside of the map" do not extend to just battle.net menus.
"If there was LAN none of this would ever be a problem." Amen.
First of all, I lol'd.
Funny that I find it just as immature to bring up an issue that was already settled. Calling someone out directly after the fact is a recipe for continued derailment, surely you in your infinite maturity know this. Also, I encourage you to practice reading comprehension in an effort to be less biased. I don't recall mentioning you at any point? This sounds to me like personalization, in which case it's your own damn problem. Finally, maybe you should read what IskatuMesk actually posted that prompted such reaction.
" It sounds quite elitist honestly to distinguish between mapping and modding like you (OP) do."
:/
Dunno man, maybe you're right and I can't practice reading comprehension. Maybe you shoul also actually read the rest of the post so you could have actually contributed to the topic since, so far, you haven't. Please, please, if you have nothing to say about the topic refrain from posting on it, I never wanted it to turn into a flame wars and unlike what I'm feeling from you I actually want to have this discussion with expertise people on the subject thus I don't want it derailed and have it closed. And mesk asked you if you were for real, you could've just ignored it or replied "yes" to clear him out of his doubt.
In my book, there is a big difference between elitist and elitist asshole. Mainly, the asshole part. But, I'll spare the thread for you and leave it at that. Surely you realize by now, that the real topic at hand is a dead end. It's already been established that what you want to do is squarely against the ToS and would definitely get you banned. So, what is there to discuss?
You must admit the way he posted it was condescending. But, I'll concede the point that it would have been better to just ignore it.
I am kind of a dick. Most people would probably tell you that.
You're not alone.
Oh really? Have you ever seen Diablo 2 Eastern Sun and SC1 with warcraft 2 buildings? I believe this is right mod according to your definitions, and as for legality I Wouldn't say so.
+1
Mapping = making maps (for which you don't need to open the data or trigger editor)
Modding = making modifications to gameplay, modifications to artwork etc. I.e making modifications.
Just because you have an interface that makes it easier, doesn't mean it's not modding. Modding is not some 'elite' thing that only kiddies that think they are hackers can do because they are editing MPQ files directly.
Hell I used to have to put in way more effort editing LUA and writing mod files for Supreme Commander, to do less complex things that you can do directly in the SC2 Editor.
Modding is not directly related to complexity if you ask me, it really just comes down to what you consider modifications are. Do you consider new gameplay elements modifications? New models, sounds, assets?
The difference with mapping is you are not adding anything new, not modifying anything, you are just displaying the terrain and existing assets in a different way.
Mapping and Modding are two different things in general, but Blizzard has done a good (albeit confusing!) job of blurring the lines between the two.
When it comes down to it, Mapping is the creation of maps. You usually have access to proprietary assets and using a level editing program (the editor) you can create an environment. Sometimes, tools are provided to add scripts or triggered events to the maps.
Modding is the modification of a game. This has always been a hazy subject when trying to define exactly what is considered a mod, as it covers a very broad range. At its simplest concept, Modding usually refers to something that changes the core gameplay of a game. Even this definition covers a broad range, as it could be something simple like 'big head mode' or it could mean a complete total conversion. There aren't any hard rules regarding what a Mod is, other than that it is a modification of a game.
So where do maps like DOTA fit into the overall scheme? Is it a Map? Is it a Mod? Well, it can be both. I see DOTA as being interchangable as a map or a mod. I don't think Blizzard has used a specific term for it either, usually addressing it as it is, DOTA. I think it is folly to put a hard line separating Maps and Mods. Unless Blizzard comes out and says specifically what the guidelines are, I don't think it's going to be a big issue determining one from another. We're past the point where that matters, and it's easier to refer to a map or mod by its name rather than its intended format.
PS - What's with all the egos in this thread? Leave it at the door!
Thank you for this post (and thank you to people who actually engaged in the discussion).
i felt so alone, no one ever discusses real topics (on any site).
We should all be sorry that "some" people don't know what discussing stuff is about...("against Terms of usage' to discuss things too?) (this has been discussed already... useless counterproductive blablabla)
Mods were illegal from the start, they had to be tolerated because of lan.
The editors were "given" to the players because the publishers wanted more exposure, wanted their game to outdo the other games etc..
i for one felt so happy/surprised when blizz outed the galaxy editor (in our day and age, i would not have bet on it, i was thrilled to be proven wrong).
However, the artificial limitations mostly, the lack of "catering" to the modding community and the lack of lan has spelled a curious "intermediate" fall out.
All of these things are due to strategic decisions from the publisher.. nothing has changed there from 25 years ago,
but discussing the matter is really still allowed. :)
i'm not on par with most of the mapmakers (mappers modders.. don't really care about the distinction), just because i have a life and i'm not in a hurry.. i bought it (feeling all exited) thinking: in 4 years i'll be able to do "any" game with this editor :) .
However, i am very astonished by the lack of discussion on sc2m.. or indeed any site.
Mapmakers are all really defensive or arrogant... they feel condescending one liners are what forums should be filled with.. i don't.
The terms of services, the no lan, the "outside" of the editor (what i'd call the "immersion"), the single vs the multiplayer... those are among myriads of subjects that have infinite discussion potential, and this for everyone's benefit...
Anyway, i said i was gone and i'll keep to it.
The general "conservatism" " fanboyism" "useless condescending and aggressive behavior " "no noobs need even try" ..etc, are really too boring and useless to bear, for such a low reward/effort ratio.
But the op (and brief and scarce ensuing discussion) made me feel good, so i had to thank you guys for it.
ps: This used to be a community of makers, it's now much less than that :(
ohh.. and f.ck no lan
Yes, I was a diablo 2 modder, I know well of Eastern Sun. I also did more to Brood War than just change the graphics of buildings. I entirely overhauled the game in over a dozen total conversions. Comparing them to hacks is unfair and I find that remark extremely offensive.
@Triceron: Go
Dota is just a map because its elements are confined to a single map. A mod, or a conversion if you prefer, applies to every map so long as it is active.
So what would we call a project that is loaded and change all of the elements of the game on every map if not a mod? A conversion? I have no attachment to the name, I just want to avoid confusion. I think defining lines is extremely important.
/edit
Let's say I load a mod in warcraft 3 with mpqdraft that changes the Paladin's voice acting. This will be effective in both dota and a melee map, say Echo Isles. However, the elements of Dota, like its triggers, items, ect. won't be effective in Echo Isles because they are contained in just the map. Even though Echo Isles plays entirely different than, say, an island map, and completely changes the gameplay as a result, they are both still just maps. Castle Fight and Dota are entirely different maps that totally change the gameplay, but they're still just maps because the elements are restricted to the individual maps.
But that mod that changes the unit's voice acting, or graphics, or whatever else, will be active on all of those maps so long as the mod is active.
Most games that have these kinds of custom content very clearly define the boundaries between them by providing a means to load the mods globally. In that screenshot I posted above, Sins of a Solar Empire has a mod loader that basically looks into a directory and sees folders in it with content listed in them not unlike the import menu of a map in GalaxyEdit. However, unlike a map in GalaxyEdit that contains triggers and data only for that map, when you load one of those mods in SoaSE it changes the entire game on every single map you play on until you deactivate it. Similar loaders exist for games like Age of Wonders 2: Shadow Magic, Dawn of War, Supreme Commander... but not Starcraft 2, Warcraft 3, or Brood War. Thus the necessity for third party programs.
But because Starcraft 2 is entirely built around Battle.net and has no such interface to globally load the data, mods fall under blizzard's moderation against any nature of mpq changes, and Warden monitors your RAM usage so mpqdraft would be seen. Blizzard is so detached from the custom community they wouldn't give half a damn what you're doing if they see that, you're just banned.
A simple interface like the one for SoaSE I showed above would cause pretty much every issue related to this subject to evaporate. Buuut... good luck seeing that ever.
I realize that if you aren't familiar with the concept it probably doesn't seem like a big deal to you. But I've spent the last 11 years modding games... so yeah. I feel pretty strongly about it. Though, to be honest, I wouldn't mod starcraft 2 even if the power was there. I'm not fond of the engine. I'm just attempting to clarify the subject.
I think there is still so much so explore inside the editor before we go and modify the game on the outside. People have barely created the RPGs, Shooters, Minigames and WHatnots they have dreamed about, and most don't think to find it necessary to modify the game on the outside. The only thing I've seen so far are the Custom UI Layouts.
(Let's just respect the OP's definition of modding and go by it for now :P. It's just a word).
I don't really agree with this, and you could easily take DoTA across multiple different maps (hell, people do). The fact that the concept has be made in to standalone games should be enough evidence to warrant calling it a mod.
At the end of the day it purely comes down to which definition of modding you want to use.
I mostly agree with the wiki definition of a mod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_%28video_gaming%29
At the very least, most custom maps should be considered partial conversion mods. The fact that we have tools to create these modes (SC2 editor) is irrelevant.
Coming from RA3 modding, my opinions of modding are these:
I would personally like to see full support of TCMs from blizzard. This will allow player A to create a great RTS mod (Perhaps a CnC style one) and a single map for it. Then other people to create a map for that mod, upload it and use it. Preferably we should also be able to add in a ladder system where we can use matchmaking to find players (Shouldn't be too hard. Just use the coding for the ladder that we already have and add a seperate league for it, with a different MMR).
Well, the thing is, calling it a map is calling the environment a map. It doesn't really matter how "big" the map is in its content, if the content is still limited to a map it's still just a map. The fact that there are a billion copycats don't really impact that original map. Dota is a really popular map, popular enough for all these clones, but in itself it's still an individual map that isn't totally changing every other map you play on. You can take the elements and make something more out of it, but on its own that's what it is.
Man, I didn't think it would be that complicated to explain. There's not really much else I can say... I give up. :\
@wOlfLisK: Go
You'd be lucky to see Blizzard even recognize any difference at all, much less support large projects, much less support custom ladders and all that.
Your missing the point, there is much more to DoTA than the map. In fact you can not create a DoTA map with just mapping. I never said anything about how big the map is, but DoTA involves heavy trigger work and lots of data editor modifications.
Whether it's 1 map or more is irrelevant, a mod doesn't HAVE to be a total conversion that works with multiple maps.
Even if you think it does, you could easily take DoTA, modify the map and have the same game mechanics. I.e. It's a mod even by your own definition.