To a large extent, it's even more powerful than SC2 editor. And more hard to use of course.
I like it's script environment, and it's huge asset library (all easy to convert), these are things that make it better than the sc2 one.
But I can see the biggest issue is: it was tooooooooo later. 1 year after the retail game? And still in alpha phrase? Seriously?
Think about it: Most games can't survive for more than 3 months after their release day. And after 1 year? Your user group is fixed. It is just like you expect the ladder players would all come to play your custom map all of a sudden.
Plus, the map makers still need months to learn the editor, and even more months/years to give birth a GREAT map. Just how long would all these take? You can guarantee your game still survive by that day, and the community sill in benign increasement by that day?
Of course, Dota 2 has much better player community than sc2, and the magic theme is more recived than sci-fi theme. So they have better chance to success on the cusom map scene.
Though by doing so (delay the editor), they selflessly degraded their best card to beat LoL. (And Heroes seems want to follow dota 2 pattern)
I've been somewhat closely following the dota 2 mod support for a while so I can help you with some misunderstandings.
What they've released right now isn't just any mod support. They've released their Source 2 engine. This is an entirely new engine which they've been working on for years. That's why it took them so long to release official mod support. And they've converted dota2 to be used by this new engine. What this basically means is that there are a whole lot of possibilities right now. It really looks like a true successor for the W3 custom games scene.
Most games can't survive for more than 3 months? SC2 is still around, isn't it? Although the custom game community is pretty much dead (There're like 8 people viewing this forum right now). Dota has been around since w3 days. Team Fortress 2 has been out for 7 years and has 50k players playing it right now! (Taken from steam stats site. And it's a weekday. In the morning.) And right now Dota2 has 500k players. LoL claims to have more players. However, do they have such modding tools? You're talking as if LoL already has full fledged mod support out.
Hopefully now you'll understand why the map editor for dota2 came out now.
But overall, every map maker should be keeping an eye on this. If this works out as expected, then it might be time to jump ship. I really really yearn to be able to play custom games like I did back in the day.
PS: I haven't been in sc2 for almost 2 years. When I logged back in to look at the custom games.... well the front page was almost entirely the same. I'm just popping by sc2mapster after seeing the news about dota2 and decided to see the reactions from here.
Well, there is no 'misunderstanding' as you claimed. And I highly doubt if you can possibly understand the dota 2 editor or the sc2 editor better than me.
Engine or not doesn't matter if you can't grow up enough skilled mod makers to do mods for you, in time. That, is the issue I'm talking about. I'm not saying this tool is failed or can't be successful, but the decision of release it so later is obviously wrong.(Not necessary leading to its downfall though).
And if there is any 'misunderstanding', that's how you comprehend my words. 'Most games' can't live that long, and SC2, lol, dota aren't 'most games', they lives longer, but generally, the industry is more cruel than 12 years ago. That's why time is so mattered.
And no, I never said anything like 'LoL has a mod tool'. What I said is, 'This Mod Tool is Dota 2's best card to beat LoL, and Valve degraded it themseleves'. It's the best card beacuse lol doesn't have one. And you misunderstanded my words.
To be honest, dota 2 has 0 chance to beat lol on the gameplay part. That's how the mod tool be the best card.
To be honest, dota 2 has 0 chance to beat lol on the gameplay part.
loled. Don't take it like smack attack but that's horse shit. I spent freaking amount of time with dota 1 and few month in dota 2 (didn't like graphic design) as a hardcore dota player, started playing with first DTS team's first line-up members (with Travka and ArtStyle, there wasn't Navi team yet) when they just started to learn heroes and item builds in computer club, I often took 2nd place in Darer, and i must say with all the respect to Guinsoo and Eul that LoL is a no-skill shit for plebs. Gameplay-wise it's just like comparing corn sticks with bacon flavor enhancer with delicious top-notch dishes in expensive restaurant. It's just not stand a chance. The balance that developers of dota nurtured for years is near-perfection. What amazes me most in dota is when i enter the game i know that it's almost all up to me if i win this game or not, everyone has same chances. Even if my team will pick 5 late heroes, like Troll, Mort, Void, Riki, Sniper there is still a chance to win even crazy pushers with nukes spam (and i won many of such games with my HS friends). That's the beauty of dota's game design. It feels rly rewarding to gang under towers, wining fights with worse items, playing by-beauty. The dota allows me to show skill, to make some absurd item builds and still wining the game just because i have crazy experience and seeing the map even without maphack like if i have one cuz i just reading the intentions of the opponent team's players. I like to humiliate people with dagon 5 and dager on gondar (on 18-22 min of the game) or riki for example, while reading from my team how bad i am (while having 28-0 stat) and roam-killing anything that moves. The LoL simply doesn't give any freedom for player's creativity and individuality.
LoL and unfortunately, Blizzard's Heroes are just about: oh guys, let's get together and go gang their team then everyone starts to click on every skill available and see how it goes (while not understanding what's going on clearly).
So let's get it straight: for hardcore players the Dota is supreme and far beyond any of this moba-for-kids games, which started to grew like a mushrooms after the rain lately. Ofcourse it doesn't mean at all that it will have greater player base that other mobas. Comparing game quality by it's player base is more or less stupid. Every product will find it's own customer, and probably even more players will come to LoL, HotS and whatever else especialy after being eliminating by my dagon gondar while playing magina with tarasque. (yes that kind of bullshit happens when i enter the games)
@abvdzh I understand where you come from when comparing a game which is intended for high-tiered players, vs a game intended for weekend warriors and their kids to play. Your point is valid, in my opinion. I would like to point out though that the fact that your point is valid helps to support Renee's point as well. A very hardcore based game community is going to stick to the game they have practiced and studied. Hardcore players are generally a different breed of player. It is (as stated above) like suggesting that hundreds of thousands of ladder players will start playing your custom map. Not likely for a hardcore game. In my opinion, the "weekend warrior" based game, would do much better to allow for custom gaming mods.
It is (as stated above) like suggesting that hundreds of thousands of ladder players will start playing your custom map. Not likely for a hardcore game. In my opinion, the "weekend warrior" based game, would do much better to allow for custom gaming mods.
That's exactly extends the thinking going in my head after reading this topic's title.
Also want to add that gameplay as any possible thing in the world can be done "Fast" or "Right" just simple as that.
I'd be interested in hearing more about the DotA2 editor. Do you have any tips you think are worth sharing? Not 100% sure that I'll be switching to the DotA2 editor, but it seems silly to not try it out!
This looks very interesting, I wonder to what extent the game can be modified using the tools. Hammer looks pretty awesome too, seems like it gives more freedom than SC2's Editor does in the terrain department, and kinda reminds me of FPS editors...then again, that's what it was initially made for.
Oh well, I'll be trying it out whenever I can! (that being when it supports x32 bits :P) Anyone here tried it out yet?
I cant quite yet tell how hard is it to even make abilities. Im kinda thinking would be sweet to get just cool tutorials that would make learning quicker before jumping in (if I ever manage that).
But atleast Ill keep an eye for this stuff. I wonder how they handle heroes, I never liked sc2:s way of doing it atleast....mmm....so many questions...
@Renee2islga: Go
I don't doubt your experience with either of the editors. In fact, I'm sure that you know them pretty well.
But suddenly what you're saying right now is that LoL and dota2 can't exist together and that one has to go. You're saying that dota2 will 'lose' and LoL will 'win' because Valve failed to push out the map editor earlier. Indeed, if Valve had completed their Source 2 engine earlier or even released it earlier, then it might have gathered a lot more attention. However, Valve likes to make sure that what they release isn't a buggy mess (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here), so they make sure that things are mostly good to go before releasing things. Instead, why don't we just take what we have and go with it instead of complaining? Dota2 map editor is out, for better or worse, but let's find out what it can do.
Yes, time is crucial. Many games just flop within a few months. Luckily for us, sc2, lol, dota2 have not flopped... yet. Instead, lol and dota2 are still growing strong. Now that dota2 has an alpha map editor out, it should be able to stay firm for a while longer. There's no sign of its popularity decreasing, so giving the devs a few months or so to slowly play around with the editor before releasing games shouldn't be that much of a problem. In fact, if we look back to w3, it wasn't until TFT came out that the custom games scene really exploded.
By the way, regarding what people say about dota2 and lol being hardcore vs weekend warrior:
Just because someone plays dota2 doesn't mean that they're hardcore. The same goes for LoL. Just because they play LoL doesn't mean that they're simply weekend warriors. Many people I know (And I'm also talking about a community-sized population) play dota2 simply because it's more similar to dota. And they're not hardcore players at all. In fact, we would regularly go back and play some good ol w3 custom games now and then. For them, they just play to have fun. Obviously not the entire playerbase of dota2 is like this. But don't forget that this will also attract people who would just want to play custom games (People like me) to dota2, further boosting their numbers.
For now I think that everyone is still messing around. Some people would jump straight into trying to get a game out but they'll most likely hit some roadblocks along the way when they find out they don't know how to do X or Y. Given some time, good, concise tutorials should start coming out.
edit:
Actually, I want to talk about this a little
Engine or not doesn't matter if you can't grow up enough skilled mod makers to do mods for you, in time. That, is the issue I'm talking about. I'm not saying this tool is failed or can't be successful, but the decision of release it so later is obviously wrong.(Not necessary leading to its downfall though).
Yeah, for something as community-driven as custom games, Valve is relying on talented people to make stuff for them. Ideally, it's obvious that the best thing to do is to give a great map editor right from the start. But I doubt that Valve had already finished the Source 2 engine at that time. So, there were basically several options for them:
1. Release a buggy, non-tested dota2 on the unfinished Source 2 engine 1 year ago, complete with buggy map editor
2. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 with a buggy and limited map editor 1 year ago
3. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 with a good map editor, but the release needs to be delayed by 6 months or so
4. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 1 year ago, while working on the Source 2 engine behind the scenes then releasing the alpha map editor now.
The problems with options #1 and #2 is that a bad map editor greatly limits and frustrates the map makers. I've seen quite a few map makers become quite annoyed with the limitations of the sc2 map editor after they had been using the w3 editor. Option #3 is pretty good but that would mean delaying the release of dota2. During that period of time, all the potential players would most likely be moving to LoL, then at that time it would be harder to get them to play dota2 instead. Also, they would then be constrained by the limitations of the current Source1 engine.
With Option #4 however, by releasing the full game as promised, they have been able to build up an established playerbase. They then slowly work on their Source2 engine, which brings us to the present. Now, they have a great number of players, then they suddenly release an alpha map editor, which people eventually find out is being run on the new Souce2 engine. If you look at things from such a viewpoint, it should be fair to say that this wasn't a bad decision. Would you rather get your hands on a buggy, limited map editor which gets fixed ever so slowly, or would you rather wait a while longer and get your hands on a polished and fully fleshed out map editor? The bad editor would force you to spend hours on fiddly methods just to achieve a basic function. Eventually people would just get fed up with everything and leave. This is what happened with sc2. At release, the map editor had many limitations. Even though people made workarounds, the trouble wasn't really worth it.
You seem to have used the dota2 map editor a little and seem to be pleased with the scripting. What's your take on the current map editor? Does it have potential?
I have to say that everything except one in DOTA2 art assets I can do it in Starcraft2, so to me I believe the two engines have similar potential on art representability. And I have very high evaluation on m3 format, it's very very powerful and smart, Blizzard did make a very nice tool for 3d and FX artists.
To DOTA2 tool, I doubt that for now, of course that people will make models for DOTA2 custom games too, but I don't think it can be as free as m3 is.
But all I said above are meaningless. Don't argue with Renee too please, no matter which of you win the discussion won't change anything.
The real thing will help B team or V team win this "editor war" is their policies and strategy. The age that leaves all fishes in the ocean and every week you harvest some has gone. The winner has to talk to fishes, solve the fishes' requests, be a friend of fishes or even become a fish. The point is when the both tools have similar quality, the advantage will come from the service you can give the mapsters. Other wise fishes will move to the other ocean.
Blizzard doesn't do this part well, it pays little at least not enough attentions to the community and has no will to share their power to build a better environment. If they did pay attention to the community, they won't ask these stupid questions in private, and there won't be so few skilled mapsters left.
Renee said that usually a new mapster can't survive/keep active a year, and in the trench I lost 2 partners already and saw many good people came and left. I still think there will be a better tomorrow on SC2, but more and more friends are leaving, how can you win a war (if Blizzard really wants to) with plenty guns but no soldiers.
R.I.P deal zolden, we finally still lose you in the SC2 community, and that's one of the biggest lost of sc2mapster too.
Once you've created your mod and put it online, how do players choose lobby / match making with dota2 custom?
I'd be interested to see how the gameplay programming / scripting works for dota 2 tools. I couldn't stand the lack of good documentation and non-breaking API for the Starcraft 2 actor system.
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Its slowly happeneings
https://fat.gfycat.com/YearlyDismalHuemul.webm
Im excited. Ill probly take a closer look into it once I get new PC (which might take a while, just cause im lazy to build one)
@zenx1: Go
the video is a bit short and all we can see is terrain edititing. googling hammer editor is more satisfing.
Competition can only be good for everyone involved. Pretty happy to see this happening.
I will like to see another video with longer time and a voice talking about it will be nice.
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Spread the love join DISCORD
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@wargirlwargirl: Go
There has been several streams online showcasing the editor today. I am sure some are still around, if you want to have a look at it in action.
sucks...
I'm really excited for these...
To a large extent, it's even more powerful than SC2 editor. And more hard to use of course.
I like it's script environment, and it's huge asset library (all easy to convert), these are things that make it better than the sc2 one.
But I can see the biggest issue is: it was tooooooooo later. 1 year after the retail game? And still in alpha phrase? Seriously?
Think about it: Most games can't survive for more than 3 months after their release day. And after 1 year? Your user group is fixed. It is just like you expect the ladder players would all come to play your custom map all of a sudden.
Plus, the map makers still need months to learn the editor, and even more months/years to give birth a GREAT map. Just how long would all these take? You can guarantee your game still survive by that day, and the community sill in benign increasement by that day?
Of course, Dota 2 has much better player community than sc2, and the magic theme is more recived than sci-fi theme. So they have better chance to success on the cusom map scene.
Though by doing so (delay the editor), they selflessly degraded their best card to beat LoL. (And Heroes seems want to follow dota 2 pattern)
@Renee2islga: Go
I've been somewhat closely following the dota 2 mod support for a while so I can help you with some misunderstandings.
What they've released right now isn't just any mod support. They've released their Source 2 engine. This is an entirely new engine which they've been working on for years. That's why it took them so long to release official mod support. And they've converted dota2 to be used by this new engine. What this basically means is that there are a whole lot of possibilities right now. It really looks like a true successor for the W3 custom games scene.
Most games can't survive for more than 3 months? SC2 is still around, isn't it? Although the custom game community is pretty much dead (There're like 8 people viewing this forum right now). Dota has been around since w3 days. Team Fortress 2 has been out for 7 years and has 50k players playing it right now! (Taken from steam stats site. And it's a weekday. In the morning.) And right now Dota2 has 500k players. LoL claims to have more players. However, do they have such modding tools? You're talking as if LoL already has full fledged mod support out.
Hopefully now you'll understand why the map editor for dota2 came out now.
But overall, every map maker should be keeping an eye on this. If this works out as expected, then it might be time to jump ship. I really really yearn to be able to play custom games like I did back in the day.
PS: I haven't been in sc2 for almost 2 years. When I logged back in to look at the custom games.... well the front page was almost entirely the same. I'm just popping by sc2mapster after seeing the news about dota2 and decided to see the reactions from here.
Well, there is no 'misunderstanding' as you claimed. And I highly doubt if you can possibly understand the dota 2 editor or the sc2 editor better than me.
Engine or not doesn't matter if you can't grow up enough skilled mod makers to do mods for you, in time. That, is the issue I'm talking about. I'm not saying this tool is failed or can't be successful, but the decision of release it so later is obviously wrong.(Not necessary leading to its downfall though).
And if there is any 'misunderstanding', that's how you comprehend my words. 'Most games' can't live that long, and SC2, lol, dota aren't 'most games', they lives longer, but generally, the industry is more cruel than 12 years ago. That's why time is so mattered.
And no, I never said anything like 'LoL has a mod tool'. What I said is, 'This Mod Tool is Dota 2's best card to beat LoL, and Valve degraded it themseleves'. It's the best card beacuse lol doesn't have one. And you misunderstanded my words.
To be honest, dota 2 has 0 chance to beat lol on the gameplay part. That's how the mod tool be the best card.
loled. Don't take it like smack attack but that's horse shit. I spent freaking amount of time with dota 1 and few month in dota 2 (didn't like graphic design) as a hardcore dota player, started playing with first DTS team's first line-up members (with Travka and ArtStyle, there wasn't Navi team yet) when they just started to learn heroes and item builds in computer club, I often took 2nd place in Darer, and i must say with all the respect to Guinsoo and Eul that LoL is a no-skill shit for plebs. Gameplay-wise it's just like comparing corn sticks with bacon flavor enhancer with delicious top-notch dishes in expensive restaurant. It's just not stand a chance. The balance that developers of dota nurtured for years is near-perfection. What amazes me most in dota is when i enter the game i know that it's almost all up to me if i win this game or not, everyone has same chances. Even if my team will pick 5 late heroes, like Troll, Mort, Void, Riki, Sniper there is still a chance to win even crazy pushers with nukes spam (and i won many of such games with my HS friends). That's the beauty of dota's game design. It feels rly rewarding to gang under towers, wining fights with worse items, playing by-beauty. The dota allows me to show skill, to make some absurd item builds and still wining the game just because i have crazy experience and seeing the map even without maphack like if i have one cuz i just reading the intentions of the opponent team's players. I like to humiliate people with dagon 5 and dager on gondar (on 18-22 min of the game) or riki for example, while reading from my team how bad i am (while having 28-0 stat) and roam-killing anything that moves. The LoL simply doesn't give any freedom for player's creativity and individuality.
LoL and unfortunately, Blizzard's Heroes are just about: oh guys, let's get together and go gang their team then everyone starts to click on every skill available and see how it goes (while not understanding what's going on clearly).
So let's get it straight: for hardcore players the Dota is supreme and far beyond any of this moba-for-kids games, which started to grew like a mushrooms after the rain lately. Ofcourse it doesn't mean at all that it will have greater player base that other mobas. Comparing game quality by it's player base is more or less stupid. Every product will find it's own customer, and probably even more players will come to LoL, HotS and whatever else especialy after being eliminating by my dagon gondar while playing magina with tarasque. (yes that kind of bullshit happens when i enter the games)
@abvdzh I understand where you come from when comparing a game which is intended for high-tiered players, vs a game intended for weekend warriors and their kids to play. Your point is valid, in my opinion. I would like to point out though that the fact that your point is valid helps to support Renee's point as well. A very hardcore based game community is going to stick to the game they have practiced and studied. Hardcore players are generally a different breed of player. It is (as stated above) like suggesting that hundreds of thousands of ladder players will start playing your custom map. Not likely for a hardcore game. In my opinion, the "weekend warrior" based game, would do much better to allow for custom gaming mods.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
@GlornII: Go
That's exactly extends the thinking going in my head after reading this topic's title.
Also want to add that gameplay as any possible thing in the world can be done "Fast" or "Right" just simple as that.
@Renee2islga: Go
I'd be interested in hearing more about the DotA2 editor. Do you have any tips you think are worth sharing? Not 100% sure that I'll be switching to the DotA2 editor, but it seems silly to not try it out!
This looks very interesting, I wonder to what extent the game can be modified using the tools. Hammer looks pretty awesome too, seems like it gives more freedom than SC2's Editor does in the terrain department, and kinda reminds me of FPS editors...then again, that's what it was initially made for.
Oh well, I'll be trying it out whenever I can! (that being when it supports x32 bits :P) Anyone here tried it out yet?
Can I make DOTA 2 into a TPS with it?
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Workshop_Tools
I cant quite yet tell how hard is it to even make abilities. Im kinda thinking would be sweet to get just cool tutorials that would make learning quicker before jumping in (if I ever manage that).
But atleast Ill keep an eye for this stuff. I wonder how they handle heroes, I never liked sc2:s way of doing it atleast....mmm....so many questions...
@Renee2islga: Go I don't doubt your experience with either of the editors. In fact, I'm sure that you know them pretty well.
But suddenly what you're saying right now is that LoL and dota2 can't exist together and that one has to go. You're saying that dota2 will 'lose' and LoL will 'win' because Valve failed to push out the map editor earlier. Indeed, if Valve had completed their Source 2 engine earlier or even released it earlier, then it might have gathered a lot more attention. However, Valve likes to make sure that what they release isn't a buggy mess (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here), so they make sure that things are mostly good to go before releasing things. Instead, why don't we just take what we have and go with it instead of complaining? Dota2 map editor is out, for better or worse, but let's find out what it can do.
Yes, time is crucial. Many games just flop within a few months. Luckily for us, sc2, lol, dota2 have not flopped... yet. Instead, lol and dota2 are still growing strong. Now that dota2 has an alpha map editor out, it should be able to stay firm for a while longer. There's no sign of its popularity decreasing, so giving the devs a few months or so to slowly play around with the editor before releasing games shouldn't be that much of a problem. In fact, if we look back to w3, it wasn't until TFT came out that the custom games scene really exploded.
By the way, regarding what people say about dota2 and lol being hardcore vs weekend warrior: Just because someone plays dota2 doesn't mean that they're hardcore. The same goes for LoL. Just because they play LoL doesn't mean that they're simply weekend warriors. Many people I know (And I'm also talking about a community-sized population) play dota2 simply because it's more similar to dota. And they're not hardcore players at all. In fact, we would regularly go back and play some good ol w3 custom games now and then. For them, they just play to have fun. Obviously not the entire playerbase of dota2 is like this. But don't forget that this will also attract people who would just want to play custom games (People like me) to dota2, further boosting their numbers.
For now I think that everyone is still messing around. Some people would jump straight into trying to get a game out but they'll most likely hit some roadblocks along the way when they find out they don't know how to do X or Y. Given some time, good, concise tutorials should start coming out.
edit: Actually, I want to talk about this a little
Yeah, for something as community-driven as custom games, Valve is relying on talented people to make stuff for them. Ideally, it's obvious that the best thing to do is to give a great map editor right from the start. But I doubt that Valve had already finished the Source 2 engine at that time. So, there were basically several options for them:
1. Release a buggy, non-tested dota2 on the unfinished Source 2 engine 1 year ago, complete with buggy map editor
2. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 with a buggy and limited map editor 1 year ago
3. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 with a good map editor, but the release needs to be delayed by 6 months or so
4. Release the Source 1 engine dota2 1 year ago, while working on the Source 2 engine behind the scenes then releasing the alpha map editor now.
The problems with options #1 and #2 is that a bad map editor greatly limits and frustrates the map makers. I've seen quite a few map makers become quite annoyed with the limitations of the sc2 map editor after they had been using the w3 editor. Option #3 is pretty good but that would mean delaying the release of dota2. During that period of time, all the potential players would most likely be moving to LoL, then at that time it would be harder to get them to play dota2 instead. Also, they would then be constrained by the limitations of the current Source1 engine.
With Option #4 however, by releasing the full game as promised, they have been able to build up an established playerbase. They then slowly work on their Source2 engine, which brings us to the present. Now, they have a great number of players, then they suddenly release an alpha map editor, which people eventually find out is being run on the new Souce2 engine. If you look at things from such a viewpoint, it should be fair to say that this wasn't a bad decision. Would you rather get your hands on a buggy, limited map editor which gets fixed ever so slowly, or would you rather wait a while longer and get your hands on a polished and fully fleshed out map editor? The bad editor would force you to spend hours on fiddly methods just to achieve a basic function. Eventually people would just get fed up with everything and leave. This is what happened with sc2. At release, the map editor had many limitations. Even though people made workarounds, the trouble wasn't really worth it.
You seem to have used the dota2 map editor a little and seem to be pleased with the scripting. What's your take on the current map editor? Does it have potential?
@Shad0wsEdge: Go
I have to say that everything except one in DOTA2 art assets I can do it in Starcraft2, so to me I believe the two engines have similar potential on art representability. And I have very high evaluation on m3 format, it's very very powerful and smart, Blizzard did make a very nice tool for 3d and FX artists.
To DOTA2 tool, I doubt that for now, of course that people will make models for DOTA2 custom games too, but I don't think it can be as free as m3 is.
But all I said above are meaningless. Don't argue with Renee too please, no matter which of you win the discussion won't change anything.
The real thing will help B team or V team win this "editor war" is their policies and strategy. The age that leaves all fishes in the ocean and every week you harvest some has gone. The winner has to talk to fishes, solve the fishes' requests, be a friend of fishes or even become a fish. The point is when the both tools have similar quality, the advantage will come from the service you can give the mapsters. Other wise fishes will move to the other ocean.
Blizzard doesn't do this part well, it pays little at least not enough attentions to the community and has no will to share their power to build a better environment. If they did pay attention to the community, they won't ask these stupid questions in private, and there won't be so few skilled mapsters left.
Renee said that usually a new mapster can't survive/keep active a year, and in the trench I lost 2 partners already and saw many good people came and left. I still think there will be a better tomorrow on SC2, but more and more friends are leaving, how can you win a war (if Blizzard really wants to) with plenty guns but no soldiers.
R.I.P deal zolden, we finally still lose you in the SC2 community, and that's one of the biggest lost of sc2mapster too.
So fishes, get ready.
Once you've created your mod and put it online, how do players choose lobby / match making with dota2 custom?
I'd be interested to see how the gameplay programming / scripting works for dota 2 tools. I couldn't stand the lack of good documentation and non-breaking API for the Starcraft 2 actor system.