Had some free time today and figured i'd finally do one final last writeup summing up my anger with blizzard so i can sleep at night without any more pent up anger, but i don't just want other modders to see it I want others to so if you could post this in SC2 general, hell even WOW general chat, that'd be awesome. No need to credit anyone, i just want people to know what blizzard has done, and the ramifications of it. In fact if you want to touch this up, add to it whatever, feel free, make it your own. Thanks to anyone who can help! The post follows below with the title first.
Title:How Blizzard Created a massive mod community with Warcraft III, Killed it with SC2, and why you should care
Blizzard is big, VERY BIG. When they F*ck up, the entire gaming community suffers. They know this and have commented that as the carriers of the PC gaming torch, they should not abuse their dominant position for personal gain. When you're as big as blizzard it shouldn't always about the money, you have a responsibility to the medium for the “greater good”. I guess you could say they're “too big to fail”. But how does shoddily thrown together user made content relate to the broader scope of gaming or Blizzard in general?
Let's think back to Warcraft III for context. The game itself never really took off like Starcraft had. But it wasn't really Blizzard's fault. Much of Starcraft's success was a fluke, the Korean hysteria was an outside variable no one could have predicted would catapult the title to greatness. Warcraft III struggled to find this niche, waited in vain for some country to adopt it as its national sport. The core gameplay of Warcraft 3, though it had potential, didn't hit the blizzard level of shine. It was good, great even, but not “blizzard” great. A different, just as unpredictable variable would bring “craft” back to blizzard's level of success. The mod community.
Warcraft 3 was an experimental title and went through many revisions over years of development, the editor for the game became incredibly polished and powerful as a result, able to steer the gameplay in many directions and polished enough that most gamers could pick it up and do cool stuff with it without much hassle. The many years of fiddling with gameplay, failing to find the perfect combination of RPG systems and RTS mechanics bore the game's saving grace, the editor. Countless games and even entire game studios owe their existence to the fan made mods created in warcraft III. Plants vs. Zombies, Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends to name a few. Even World of Warcraft drew inspiration from the twich based hero control centered on crowd controls and consolidated core damage abilities that defined classes.
The fans had a blast making and playing maps, blizzard sold a ton of additional copies, and gaming as a whole blossomed. They were carrying the torch and things seemed good. In fact, the blizzard approach to game development centered around taking fresh gameplay concepts others couldn't fully polish and reinvisioning them. Though blizzard was quickly destroying all opposition in the RTS and RPG scene, they had created their own “spawning pool” of new game concepts, and for free! Certainly they would continue this support for user made content and encourage the fans to create new innovative gameplay with a robust editor and battle net... right?
Go ahead and log into starcraft 2 right now, you'll have to find out how to join the custom games on your own because you wont automatically join a chat channel, it's the button in the lower right after you click multiplayer. You'll notice bnet seems sorta stale and cold in comparison to the warcraft 3 days, just a lot less human, mechanized, communication and community are stripped away. The games that are staring you in the face haven't changed much in the past several months, go ahead and play one, any one.
The game you just played was a rehashed version of a tug of war map or some mass spawn map, or even more likely a dota clone, because that's a big reason you bought the game and you actually want to play that. Whatever you just played was a game rooted deeply in base RTS mechanics and simple economy. Very likely to be a “light” version of one of hundreds of far more robust Warcraft 3 maps. You probably didn't enjoy it too much and next time you load up SC2 will be for a round or two of the vanilla gameplay which is itself is wearing on you right now. There are a couple main reason for this.
SC 2 was rushed to completion. The tools simply weren't up to the standard they had established in warcraft III. Indeed starcraft 2 didn't get the same treatment Warcraft III had during its infancy. A decade ago, blizzard was carefully trying to bring back its core IP in innovative fashion, it was their main endevor, the game HAD to do well or they weren't Blizzard any more. It had to raise the bar like starcraft did. Sequels from blizzard not long ago weren't sequals, they were all new gameplay experiences, genera transforming titles.
They also needed money. It's easy to point fingers and decry how evil companies are for wanting money, but quite literally they needed it. Mid way through Starcraft's development WoW became the behemoth it is today and when one company makes that much money on one venture, things tend to change, it's the nature of the beast, there's no changing it and you can't really blame someone when that much money starts pouring in for trying to get more. As the “carrier of the torch” they sorta dropped the ball here. Monetizing Starcraft 2 to be a cash cow became a new priority during its already weakened development. They even taunted mapmakers with the idea, saying they would share profits made by very good user made mods. The community was incredibly excited for starcraft 2's editor at this point. Finally they might get something tangible back for their years of penniless toil.
Well its almost been a year since feedback given during beta and the custom mod scene for blizzard is all but dead. Their own sup par custom mods have dropped off into oblivion without artificially stickying them to the front page. Interviews with the developers tend to lean towards the fact that they never will launch the marketplace, and likely never bring their editor to a state that can truly support innovative new games. It's also at this time that they are adding additional functionality to battlnet to help players find obscure custom maps that are actually fun and innovative. Only now that they have absolutely no interest in selling their own mods, are they willing to let the community try to bring their game some additional success. Their interest in the mod making community and their faith in them to bring value to their brands was a lie from the beginning. What gets me the most is the total and utter lack of communication from blizzard. They strung us along the whole time, all the while knowing Starcraft 2 was a hollow shell of a blizzard game.
What happened here? I truly have no idea, maybe an anonymous reader could fill us in. I would love to know why the human capital responsible for making such strides in custom modding ranging from tower defenses to hero arenas never really found much of a home at blizzard. Why Valve is developing a DOTA 2. Why Starcraft 2 lacked innovation in its gameplay.
What I do know is they feared both the pirate AND the consumer. They shut themselves in, removed the outside factors of piracy and competition, but at the same time cut off who often times made them so great to begin with. The ones who created the gaming leagues that catapulted starcraft, the ones who created the DOTA mod selling countless millions of copies for warcraft 3 and bringing positive changes to the gaming landscape in ways we can't even fathom. It's dumbfounding that blizzard had the gal to think they would be better in solidarity, dictating themselves what would be best for PC gaming, suffocating the driving force of PC development, and it's scary to think of their power and influence being swayed in such a direction.
What Blizzard did to their community shows either a deliberate attack for outsider development and new ideas, or a reckless development cycle that is genera destroying and leading to excessive sequels and dumbed down FPS's.
I know this may be a little out of place, but this catastrophe hasn't been voiced much in public channels. The anguish and defeat of the RTS modder lies tucked away in a single categorized blizzard forum and on few modding websites no one frequents any more. There are untold thousands of potential game makers who opened up the starcraft 2 editor, got confused and closed it, never to open it again.
It infuriates me that blizzard can take something so amazing from gaming and just stomp it into the dirt, and no one really noticed. The death of this community is a terrible loss to modders, to gamers, to game developers, to everyone and i've been wanting to get this off my chest for some time in a place that isn't viewed purely by other soul crushed modders.
If you made it through all this, I solute you and thank your for your time. Not too many people actually give a damn about the true heart of gaming and game development these days.
This post is a winner, and you sir are winning. No, you're bi-winning as charlie would say.
Honestly on the inside I feel the same way as you, just not as extreme. There is a certain coldness... I think sc2 is just different tbh. Look at any forums or whatnot, it's all about melee (even though I find it terribly simpler than war3 without heroes). Even the custom game chat rooms on bnet are just people looking to play melee maps or melee knockoffs/tugs. Yes guys... people actually do want to play tugs... surprisingly.
I want to play dark deeds maps, LOAP maps, rpgs etc... while the editor can do it, people just aren't done with good projects as well as the fact that sc at its core is just not the same ><
Time will tell, 1.3 is a step in the right direction. Definitely wowed me :D But I feel your pain. Why couldn't Blizz have told us they were indeed adding a change to the custom game system instead of just saying "were aware" and then suddenly release a PTR that blew everyone away. As good as 1.3 looks, they still hurt a lot of their reputation with many customers that will now be wary over their next purchase.
Warcraft 3 spawned brilliant games that are now (like you say) the entire lifeblood of certain studios. Even Valve was smart enough to jump on the train.
Remember that modding in Warcraft 3 only began to pick up and expand into new territory after the expansion. Until then you needed to modify .slk files to add new abilities or change existing ones.
Modifying .slk files was something I only ever saw in the original DotA and in my opinion, it was the only decent (DotA) version. There were other maps around at the time, but none had as much exposure as DotA because it was fresh and innovative at the time. We actually have a few maps like that already, however the problem isn't so much the maps this time as it is the delivery system.
Custom co-op campaigns are nonexistent (and something I was interested in doing).
FPS is meh.
WASD is laggy when uploaded to their servers (the only way to play multi-player).
I bought Starcraft 2 for the modding. Not for the regular melee games. Hell not even for the campaign. I can't even really say I enjoyed the campaign that much, partly because of the achievements and that extra crap I didnt care for. A part of me holds some lingering hope that the next 2 expansions will bring some redemption to a game which is pretty mediocre.
Thanks onetwo, you've been really supportive of my whining over the past few months and i do appreciate it :)
I want to admit though that this post is a little selfish. At the end of the day Blizzard doesn't really owe us anything when you think about it and they're under tremendous pressure on multiple titles. I feel like a charity case sometimes, but i know in the back of my head a strong mod community is good for everyone. That said i like to think trying to bring more attention to the dying mod community on PC gaming is a good for the soul of gaming. And if blizzard is on the ball, about to get all this sorted out in the future with more awesome patches, i will be a very, very happy modder.
Edit:
@voidpotatoe
True, but the mod package wasn't a selling point of vanilla warcraft 3. Starcraft 2 on the other hand built it up to be this huge thing before beta even came out. The recent backpedalling on marketplace and custom games in general could spell disaster for potential growth of modding in the future. We just don't know their plans any more and if they even have the mod community as a priority, there is NO communication whatsoever and all past communication has been half truths and speculation about where SC2 COULD go.
11/10, I just cried.....out of my penis.
I'm from Europe, so I can't post in US and the EU is definitely to retarded to understand such a complex text in English...
+1 Crazyfingers61, you just won a free sex from me. Hope you are not a guy though.
I would have banned you too. You post contains absolutely nothing constructive in it. It's just a wall of text full of whine/rage, only it has paragraphs, proper spelling and no swearing (wow, that must have been a big effort for you). You also show some unnatural telepathic abilities, since you know exactly what blizzard is thinking and that they rushed their game (what a load of horse shit btw. They delay the game multiple times, spend 3 blizzcons talking about it, and you're calling it rushed?).
Why couldn't Blizz have told us they were indeed adding a change to the custom game system instead of just saying "were aware" and then suddenly release a PTR that blew everyone away.
Because then, people like Rodrigo and the OP would whine and rage about how they could do it better. Watch this video from blizzcon 2010 and how the guy behaves. It's what I'm talking about (also notice how the crowd reacts).
(it's at 2:55 in case it doesn't auto-skip to it)
A smartass troll who thinks he knows everything there is to know. I bet he could remake and improve WoW in 5 hours! 5 HOURS!
If you made it through all this, I solute you and thank your for your time...
Yea, I wasted 2 minutes of my life on that. Honestly, I think its a lot of unnecessary and uncalled for b1tching from your side. All your post proves is how undeserving a mapping community can be.
Blizzard, as can be seen from successive patches(including 1.3), is trying their best for the custom map/modding community. Do not forget that they really do not have to cater to the niche mapping scene of Starcraft 2!!. Try to understand that. Starcraft 2 is primarily an Esports game, everything else is secondary and they hardly benefit from satisfying your every need/whim for custom maps/GE/Popularity system. That aside, How many other RTS games out there have such powerful editors in comparison to GE?.
I think Blizzard is trying their best(and its good enough in my opinion). I also tire of the comparison between the Sc2 custom maps and Wc3 ones. Fact of the matter is, 90% of all you mappers are useless and without talent(Wc3 and Sc2). Time waits to produce the best maps. Case in point, We aren`t even at HOTS yet, Its a little early to declare end game on the mapping scene.
@tolfan
This post was a big effort for me, it took several months of fruitless modding to get to this point.
It's also fairly common knowledge that much of the SC2 team was brought on to work on WOW once it was determined to be a massive certified hit, hence the delays.
I don't want to argue too much though, this thread wasn't meant to create infighting here as we have plenty of that between the die hards and the people fed up with everything, it really just doesn't go anywhere at this point or do anyone any good.
P.S. I don't think i could make wow better with 5 minutes of development. I do think blizzard could have made SC2 and the editor better with years more of polish, which is what this thread is all about and what blizzard development used to be all about.
@eternalwraith
I explicitly stated in my replies everything you want me to "understand". And anyone who played custom games since early starcraft 2 will remember a very steady decline in quality of mapping. There WERE some very talented modders making innovative and fun maps who have since dropped ship. There was a time when modding on SC2 didn't seem so dismal, it's actually gotten WORSE, not better.
@h34dl4g
Glad i could make you cry out your d*ck. I will keep my gender and orientation a secret for your sake.
I totally agree. I am in a similar state of mind on this whole matter.
The lack of communication is not just annoying, its crippling to the community. Where is this so called Wiki they promised? There is a link to it when you open the editor. It's hard enough keeping the Starcraft 2 mod community going these days with people leaving out of frustration.
I was also really annoyed by some of the crap at Blizzcon, especially last year:
"We use the same tools as you" except we can bypass the editor's limitations.
The map contest had requirements which weren't mentioned and people who won the map contest broke some of the contest rules.
Starcraft 2 is primarily an Esports game, everything else is secondary ...
Only problem is the way they marketed it at Blizzcon with features they failed to deliver or aren't quite up to scratch as they lead on. 3rd person camera with WSAD... which lags in multi-player. I guess that must have slipped their mind.
It would have been nice to know ahead of time of the limitations with the publishing of the maps. Eg. banks weren't and still aren't secure, neither are locked maps.
I only bought this game for the mods, plenty of others did too. The mods are what made Warcraft 3 as successful as it is. Keeping a good level of communication with the mapping community would only improve the quality of the game. Only recently they have actually let us know what they are doing. Hope at last!
90% of all you mappers are useless and without talent.
I think I know what you meant to say, but that statement just doesn't sit well for me.
As of writing this, 7 people have posted in this thread. So, not even one of these people is a decent mapper? I am assuming when you say this you are in the 10%?
We could help the community improve or we could just insult them. Elitism isn't helping here and I am actually rather disappointed to see a mod of mapster openly say this to the other members of the community.
I know when I started off in Warcraft 3 my maps were terrible, but I was neither useless or untalented. Part of the reason I haven't released anything yet is because I still need to refine my ideas instead of beginning something I will get bored of (like I did in Warcraft 3) or something I finish which nobody would want to play.
@EternalWraith: Go
Only problem is the way they marketed it at Blizzcon with features they failed to deliver or aren't quite up to scratch as they lead on. 3rd person camera with WSAD... which lags in multi-player. I guess that must have slipped their mind.
Lets not have unrealistic expectations. The reasons for the lag in WASD play was clearly explained by them. The core game architecture at the moment can only do so much. Its built around RTS response times. There are tweaks and methods of eliminating most lag through WASD at the moment.
@EternalWraith: GoI only bought this game for the mods, plenty of others did too. The mods are what made Warcraft 3 as successful as it is. Keeping a good level of communication with the mapping community would only improve the quality of the game. Only recently they have actually let us know what they are doing. Hope at last!
I`d say a "few" others did too. Single player and Melee multiplayer are the largest and main player base.
The mods are what "kept" Warcraft 3 successful and going toward/and long after the end of its life cycle. It never "made" Warcraft 3 successful. A point you fail to realize.
I think I know what you meant to say, but that statement just doesn't sit well for me.
As of writing this, 7 people have posted in this thread. (1) So, not even one of these people is a decent mapper? (2)I am assuming when you say this you are in the 10%?
We could help the community improve or we could just insult them. (3)Elitism isn't helping here and I am actually rather disappointed to see a mod of mapster openly say this to the other members of the community.
(4)I know when I started off in Warcraft 3 my maps were terrible, but I was neither useless or untalented. Part of the reason I haven't released anything yet is because I still need to refine my ideas instead of beginning something I will get bored of (like I did in Warcraft 3) or something I finish which nobody would want to play.
1. How do you come to that conclusion?(rhetorical question). Read your statement again, and you`ll realize how easily you draw up false presumptions.
2. Irrelevant and besides the point. Again, you draw assumptions.
3. Not elitism. The only problem I see here is the same old whining and complaining. I Never said anything against members in specific of this community, get your facts straight before so readily calling out a mod or expect a possible warning. My job is to keep this place in order as best as possible. People make it difficult due to their ill-informed nature and attitude. I dont expect nor desire to be liked for what I have to do as a Mod.
4. Good for you.
Do not expect me to return reply anymore in this thread. Ive now stated all thats to be said.
P.S For the record. I consider many people from Sc2mapster to be in that upper 10% of talented people.
It never "made" Warcraft 3 successful. A point you fail to realize.
I never played the multi-player melee games much, but really enjoyed the campaign. I haven't failed to realize that at all. My point was that without the mods the game wouldn't have sold as many copies and had as much activity online as it did.
Without mods you would have no DotA. Without DotA, would it have been as successful? Definitely not.
(1) I don't think you can put numbers on a modder's ability to make a fun map. A fun map to someone may not be fun to another. I admit I could have taken a different approach to explaining it, but I didn't.
(2) Assumption FAIL and like you mentioned unnecessary. Sorry.
(3) I should have worded this better because I didn't mean any disrespect. However being a new member and seeing that comment made me somewhat defensive because I felt it was kind of harsh. It doesn't help that I have had a toothache all week. Once again I apologize.
P.S For the record. I consider many people from Sc2mapster to be in that upper 10% of talented people.
Fair enough. I probably should have clarified whether you were talking specifically about the mapmaking community (including those who don't visit this site) or just Sc2mapster.
I believe that most of those who do visit Sc2mapster will try and produce good maps and will seek advice and suggestions rather than release maps which just clog up the servers.
1/i thought the post was a good read ..bit on the aggro side, but when one feels cheated ...how do you remain 100% fair and/or focused?.
2/i don't understand when people fail to see what proper lobbying is?
How "not doing it right" has the reverse effect of what was lobbied for in the first place.
(ie: bad customer claims drown out good ones = easier for disclaimers to argue that they must further delay "future difficult/risky after purchase ventures".
Blizzard sells a product. We are customers.
In the case of buying a software, it's a lot like buying a car or a house... (i'll pm the analogy to anyone who asks):
They do not support the editor.
The editor is bound by blizznet platform, and said bnet IS SUPPORTED by blizz
i mean they cater as proficiently as they can for it...(in today's marketplace, not needing to do it, still not "abandoning mapmakers) gotto <3 blizz
But they lay their attention (where/when they add for customer service) to their target:
For now, and probably until Lov their target is not the mapmaking community, but the new influx of players on sc2.
----
BLIZZ WILL IMPLEMENT STUFF THAT THEY CAN.
(from here on, i'll be focusing solely on the issue from the mapmaking community's point of view)
An example: Barrin (a tl invested mapmaker) gained what he properly lobbied for: creep conundrum solved, to his taste
...because he did it in a respected customer fashion and was supported by a huge follow through on line everywhere (croos realms/sites anyone?) of other constructive customers.
(Bear in mind that i would have liked the spread to have remained random, while still support the purpose of the change).
This is but one example, on a minor issue?
DON'T ASK FOR SOMETHING UNREASONABLE OUTRIGHT , please prefer long steady lobbying for those core vital issues we really stand to loose from if not implemented/"opened", this method will amount to better bridge gaping with disclaimer.
blizz are going to do their "w0 w1 w2 sc1 w3 sc2" bit/bid... they will add dark archons in HoS and so on, who's to say where/when they'll stop...,
i'm personally rooting/hopping/hoping for "art tools" around release (i'd say beta release) of Lov...
... me needs to be there = need to be selectable by blizz = do what's necessary to get in = be nice to blizz = sell their product for them=never bash uselessly (although i ALSO support the need for such posts)
Their marketing and release strategies are bound by so many parameters tis mindboogling to the layman, juvenile posting DEMANDING stuff that is above even blizz's pay grade is counter productive as hell.
Just think about someone wanting his NA account change to KR for one...
AAAAA .. blizz is more powerful than obama! They got into KR clean!.. Just gotta supply them with a valid work permit for the country...
(blizz can/would/will do this change, but they do want to "tamper" these accesses' request preemptively... we're talking about gamers after all...?!).
Sorry for textbuilding, for quick read, www format:...
blizz no care about these posts...
you not get invited to Lov alpha, me sad (me know how it feels, was sad to be out of sc2beta)
blizz more "frightened" of mass customers concerted efficient lobbying
gotta unite not parse the community
have good day mapping, me like people (the op for one) who speak their mind and do so on great mapmakers' forums
I never played the multi-player melee games much, but really enjoyed the campaign. I haven't failed to realize that at all. My point was that without the mods the game wouldn't have sold as many copies and had as much activity online as it did.
Without mods you would have no DotA. Without DotA, would it have been as successful? Definitely not.
There was no DotA when the game released and therefore it had no affect on sales. People bought it for the continued awesomeness from WC2 and it was the next best thing from SC for SC fans. It had an awesome storyline and with the announcement of World of Warcraft shortly after, that's probably what gave it it's extra boost of sales, not DoTA.
Warcraft 3 had Tower Defense, and it's way bigger than DoTA I would say. It's in Apps for phones, websites, flash games, etc. If anything gave WC3 life, it was Tower Defenses which were there in beta and release. They were highly played before and even after DoTA. And it was probably the first decent thing that was made in SC2.
Just thought I would point out that DoTA or mods in general had nothing to do with sales for WC3, especially intial sales. And anyone who bought WC3 after initial sales, usually had no idea of DoTA until after already buying it, unless specifically refered from a friend. & They probably bought it for the story because of WoW.
Also, mods (custom maps) were a bonus, ever since WC2. It has been a bonus to be able to make custom maps. It's not something that comes with every game, an editor which allows anyone to easily learn and make a custom map/mod using their engine. I am not saying it didn't help sales, especially after SC1, it was expected to have an editor. But that's not the reason WC3 sold, I am sure it helped out but as for the main reason, no, that had nothing to do with it. People would of bought it anyways even without an editor.
Despite the failings of Blizzard and the (debatable) worse quality of their newer games over their older games, Blizzard still got a lot more right then some other companies do.
I think its a little premature to make too many declarations of doom about its failure. Its clear to me that it was "rushed to completion" as you say, to some extent - they themselves admit a lot of features they wanted to include didn't make it. I just think a lot of people have too high expectations. Blizzard games have always taken until their expansion to make them become the legacies that they are.
IMO, they've created a good foundation even if its currently lacking. I honestly think they can still succeed. You just didn't see the kind of changes they've put out in these patches in other games, so imagine what the expansions will be like?
There will always be some fundamental problems that will never be fixed, but no game is perfect and I don't see that as such a big deal.
Also, mods (custom maps) were a bonus, ever since WC2. It has been a bonus to be able to make custom maps. It's not something that comes with every game, an editor which allows anyone to easily learn and make a custom map/mod using their engine. I am not saying it didn't help sales, especially after SC1, it was expected to have an editor. But that's not the reason WC3 sold, I am sure it helped out but as for the main reason, no, that had nothing to do with it. People would of bought it anyways even without an editor.
Anyway's carry on.
I still haven't read the OP properly yet because hey, just look at it, but... Bronxsy does make an extremely valid point. The reason this whole site exists, the reason YOU are here is because Blizzard chooses to release editors for their games in such a fashion that they're easy to learn and work with. If you really think Blizz is 'letting the modding community down' by that, go play some stuff by EA. That's not to say you can't criticize what they're doing if you fear they might be taking some wrong directions in supporting us, but just as I've seen in WoW, people tend to overreact massively. You should be 'mildly annoyed' by things like that, and state that 'it might be better if they do X'. Not that THE COMMUNITY IS DEAD and BLIZZARD KILLED IT and KOTICK IS SATAN INCARNATE.
Also, mods (custom maps) were a bonus, ever since WC2. It has been a bonus to be able to make custom maps. It's not something that comes with every game, an editor which allows anyone to easily learn and make a custom map/mod using their engine. I am not saying it didn't help sales, especially after SC1, it was expected to have an editor. But that's not the reason WC3 sold, I am sure it helped out but as for the main reason, no, that had nothing to do with it. People would of bought it anyways even without an editor.
Well, gotta disagree with that. For Sc2 the Editor is no bonus anymore. They actively advertised the editor and it's features as a selling point. Makes it part of the package, imo.
Anyway, the OP basically re-states all the things which have been said a hundred times by a hundred different people.
And the only thing these posts are doing is stirr up heated discussions. Luckily we at mapster are somewhat civilized.
If you post controverse stuff on the battlenet forums it feels like a civil war breaks out everytime.
The only accuse I haven't heard of yet is that Blizzard hasn't made the DotA. And I'm sure if Blizzard actually did then people would magically foresee how Blizz will shutdown and ban all Dota-esque maps once they publish it!
Had some free time today and figured i'd finally do one final last writeup summing up my anger with blizzard so i can sleep at night without any more pent up anger, but i don't just want other modders to see it I want others to so if you could post this in SC2 general, hell even WOW general chat, that'd be awesome. No need to credit anyone, i just want people to know what blizzard has done, and the ramifications of it. In fact if you want to touch this up, add to it whatever, feel free, make it your own. Thanks to anyone who can help! The post follows below with the title first.
Title:How Blizzard Created a massive mod community with Warcraft III, Killed it with SC2, and why you should care
Blizzard is big, VERY BIG. When they F*ck up, the entire gaming community suffers. They know this and have commented that as the carriers of the PC gaming torch, they should not abuse their dominant position for personal gain. When you're as big as blizzard it shouldn't always about the money, you have a responsibility to the medium for the “greater good”. I guess you could say they're “too big to fail”. But how does shoddily thrown together user made content relate to the broader scope of gaming or Blizzard in general?
Let's think back to Warcraft III for context. The game itself never really took off like Starcraft had. But it wasn't really Blizzard's fault. Much of Starcraft's success was a fluke, the Korean hysteria was an outside variable no one could have predicted would catapult the title to greatness. Warcraft III struggled to find this niche, waited in vain for some country to adopt it as its national sport. The core gameplay of Warcraft 3, though it had potential, didn't hit the blizzard level of shine. It was good, great even, but not “blizzard” great. A different, just as unpredictable variable would bring “craft” back to blizzard's level of success. The mod community.
Warcraft 3 was an experimental title and went through many revisions over years of development, the editor for the game became incredibly polished and powerful as a result, able to steer the gameplay in many directions and polished enough that most gamers could pick it up and do cool stuff with it without much hassle. The many years of fiddling with gameplay, failing to find the perfect combination of RPG systems and RTS mechanics bore the game's saving grace, the editor. Countless games and even entire game studios owe their existence to the fan made mods created in warcraft III. Plants vs. Zombies, Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends to name a few. Even World of Warcraft drew inspiration from the twich based hero control centered on crowd controls and consolidated core damage abilities that defined classes.
The fans had a blast making and playing maps, blizzard sold a ton of additional copies, and gaming as a whole blossomed. They were carrying the torch and things seemed good. In fact, the blizzard approach to game development centered around taking fresh gameplay concepts others couldn't fully polish and reinvisioning them. Though blizzard was quickly destroying all opposition in the RTS and RPG scene, they had created their own “spawning pool” of new game concepts, and for free! Certainly they would continue this support for user made content and encourage the fans to create new innovative gameplay with a robust editor and battle net... right?
Go ahead and log into starcraft 2 right now, you'll have to find out how to join the custom games on your own because you wont automatically join a chat channel, it's the button in the lower right after you click multiplayer. You'll notice bnet seems sorta stale and cold in comparison to the warcraft 3 days, just a lot less human, mechanized, communication and community are stripped away. The games that are staring you in the face haven't changed much in the past several months, go ahead and play one, any one.
The game you just played was a rehashed version of a tug of war map or some mass spawn map, or even more likely a dota clone, because that's a big reason you bought the game and you actually want to play that. Whatever you just played was a game rooted deeply in base RTS mechanics and simple economy. Very likely to be a “light” version of one of hundreds of far more robust Warcraft 3 maps. You probably didn't enjoy it too much and next time you load up SC2 will be for a round or two of the vanilla gameplay which is itself is wearing on you right now. There are a couple main reason for this.
SC 2 was rushed to completion. The tools simply weren't up to the standard they had established in warcraft III. Indeed starcraft 2 didn't get the same treatment Warcraft III had during its infancy. A decade ago, blizzard was carefully trying to bring back its core IP in innovative fashion, it was their main endevor, the game HAD to do well or they weren't Blizzard any more. It had to raise the bar like starcraft did. Sequels from blizzard not long ago weren't sequals, they were all new gameplay experiences, genera transforming titles.
They also needed money. It's easy to point fingers and decry how evil companies are for wanting money, but quite literally they needed it. Mid way through Starcraft's development WoW became the behemoth it is today and when one company makes that much money on one venture, things tend to change, it's the nature of the beast, there's no changing it and you can't really blame someone when that much money starts pouring in for trying to get more. As the “carrier of the torch” they sorta dropped the ball here. Monetizing Starcraft 2 to be a cash cow became a new priority during its already weakened development. They even taunted mapmakers with the idea, saying they would share profits made by very good user made mods. The community was incredibly excited for starcraft 2's editor at this point. Finally they might get something tangible back for their years of penniless toil.
Well its almost been a year since feedback given during beta and the custom mod scene for blizzard is all but dead. Their own sup par custom mods have dropped off into oblivion without artificially stickying them to the front page. Interviews with the developers tend to lean towards the fact that they never will launch the marketplace, and likely never bring their editor to a state that can truly support innovative new games. It's also at this time that they are adding additional functionality to battlnet to help players find obscure custom maps that are actually fun and innovative. Only now that they have absolutely no interest in selling their own mods, are they willing to let the community try to bring their game some additional success. Their interest in the mod making community and their faith in them to bring value to their brands was a lie from the beginning. What gets me the most is the total and utter lack of communication from blizzard. They strung us along the whole time, all the while knowing Starcraft 2 was a hollow shell of a blizzard game.
What happened here? I truly have no idea, maybe an anonymous reader could fill us in. I would love to know why the human capital responsible for making such strides in custom modding ranging from tower defenses to hero arenas never really found much of a home at blizzard. Why Valve is developing a DOTA 2. Why Starcraft 2 lacked innovation in its gameplay.
What I do know is they feared both the pirate AND the consumer. They shut themselves in, removed the outside factors of piracy and competition, but at the same time cut off who often times made them so great to begin with. The ones who created the gaming leagues that catapulted starcraft, the ones who created the DOTA mod selling countless millions of copies for warcraft 3 and bringing positive changes to the gaming landscape in ways we can't even fathom. It's dumbfounding that blizzard had the gal to think they would be better in solidarity, dictating themselves what would be best for PC gaming, suffocating the driving force of PC development, and it's scary to think of their power and influence being swayed in such a direction.
What Blizzard did to their community shows either a deliberate attack for outsider development and new ideas, or a reckless development cycle that is genera destroying and leading to excessive sequels and dumbed down FPS's.
I know this may be a little out of place, but this catastrophe hasn't been voiced much in public channels. The anguish and defeat of the RTS modder lies tucked away in a single categorized blizzard forum and on few modding websites no one frequents any more. There are untold thousands of potential game makers who opened up the starcraft 2 editor, got confused and closed it, never to open it again.
It infuriates me that blizzard can take something so amazing from gaming and just stomp it into the dirt, and no one really noticed. The death of this community is a terrible loss to modders, to gamers, to game developers, to everyone and i've been wanting to get this off my chest for some time in a place that isn't viewed purely by other soul crushed modders.
If you made it through all this, I solute you and thank your for your time. Not too many people actually give a damn about the true heart of gaming and game development these days.
And oh yeah, Happy Birthday Blizzard
Oh and if you want to upvote it on /r/reddit (GREAT SITE) you can do so here:
http:www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/fx0kd/how_blizzard_created_a_massive_mod_community_with/
I am in my last warning. If I post that, I am perma-banned in the next day. :P
@crazyfingers619: Go
This post is a winner, and you sir are winning. No, you're bi-winning as charlie would say.
Honestly on the inside I feel the same way as you, just not as extreme. There is a certain coldness... I think sc2 is just different tbh. Look at any forums or whatnot, it's all about melee (even though I find it terribly simpler than war3 without heroes). Even the custom game chat rooms on bnet are just people looking to play melee maps or melee knockoffs/tugs. Yes guys... people actually do want to play tugs... surprisingly.
I want to play dark deeds maps, LOAP maps, rpgs etc... while the editor can do it, people just aren't done with good projects as well as the fact that sc at its core is just not the same ><
Time will tell, 1.3 is a step in the right direction. Definitely wowed me :D But I feel your pain. Why couldn't Blizz have told us they were indeed adding a change to the custom game system instead of just saying "were aware" and then suddenly release a PTR that blew everyone away. As good as 1.3 looks, they still hurt a lot of their reputation with many customers that will now be wary over their next purchase.
Warcraft 3 spawned brilliant games that are now (like you say) the entire lifeblood of certain studios. Even Valve was smart enough to jump on the train.
Remember that modding in Warcraft 3 only began to pick up and expand into new territory after the expansion. Until then you needed to modify .slk files to add new abilities or change existing ones.
Modifying .slk files was something I only ever saw in the original DotA and in my opinion, it was the only decent (DotA) version. There were other maps around at the time, but none had as much exposure as DotA because it was fresh and innovative at the time. We actually have a few maps like that already, however the problem isn't so much the maps this time as it is the delivery system.
Custom co-op campaigns are nonexistent (and something I was interested in doing).
FPS is meh.
WASD is laggy when uploaded to their servers (the only way to play multi-player).
I bought Starcraft 2 for the modding. Not for the regular melee games. Hell not even for the campaign. I can't even really say I enjoyed the campaign that much, partly because of the achievements and that extra crap I didnt care for. A part of me holds some lingering hope that the next 2 expansions will bring some redemption to a game which is pretty mediocre.
I miss the Warcraft 3 era.
Edit: Going to play the Warcraft 3 campaign :)
Thanks onetwo, you've been really supportive of my whining over the past few months and i do appreciate it :)
I want to admit though that this post is a little selfish. At the end of the day Blizzard doesn't really owe us anything when you think about it and they're under tremendous pressure on multiple titles. I feel like a charity case sometimes, but i know in the back of my head a strong mod community is good for everyone. That said i like to think trying to bring more attention to the dying mod community on PC gaming is a good for the soul of gaming. And if blizzard is on the ball, about to get all this sorted out in the future with more awesome patches, i will be a very, very happy modder.
Edit: @voidpotatoe True, but the mod package wasn't a selling point of vanilla warcraft 3. Starcraft 2 on the other hand built it up to be this huge thing before beta even came out. The recent backpedalling on marketplace and custom games in general could spell disaster for potential growth of modding in the future. We just don't know their plans any more and if they even have the mod community as a priority, there is NO communication whatsoever and all past communication has been half truths and speculation about where SC2 COULD go.
11/10, I just cried.....out of my penis.
I'm from Europe, so I can't post in US and the EU is definitely to retarded to understand such a complex text in English...
+1 Crazyfingers61, you just won a free sex from me. Hope you are not a guy though.
I would have banned you too. You post contains absolutely nothing constructive in it. It's just a wall of text full of whine/rage, only it has paragraphs, proper spelling and no swearing (wow, that must have been a big effort for you). You also show some unnatural telepathic abilities, since you know exactly what blizzard is thinking and that they rushed their game (what a load of horse shit btw. They delay the game multiple times, spend 3 blizzcons talking about it, and you're calling it rushed?).
For reference: this is how a good and constructive post looks like.
Because then, people like Rodrigo and the OP would whine and rage about how they could do it better. Watch this video from blizzcon 2010 and how the guy behaves. It's what I'm talking about (also notice how the crowd reacts).
(it's at 2:55 in case it doesn't auto-skip to it)
A smartass troll who thinks he knows everything there is to know. I bet he could remake and improve WoW in 5 hours! 5 HOURS!
Yea, I wasted 2 minutes of my life on that. Honestly, I think its a lot of unnecessary and uncalled for b1tching from your side. All your post proves is how undeserving a mapping community can be.
Blizzard, as can be seen from successive patches(including 1.3), is trying their best for the custom map/modding community. Do not forget that they really do not have to cater to the niche mapping scene of Starcraft 2!!. Try to understand that. Starcraft 2 is primarily an Esports game, everything else is secondary and they hardly benefit from satisfying your every need/whim for custom maps/GE/Popularity system. That aside, How many other RTS games out there have such powerful editors in comparison to GE?.
I think Blizzard is trying their best(and its good enough in my opinion). I also tire of the comparison between the Sc2 custom maps and Wc3 ones. Fact of the matter is, 90% of all you mappers are useless and without talent(Wc3 and Sc2). Time waits to produce the best maps. Case in point, We aren`t even at HOTS yet, Its a little early to declare end game on the mapping scene.
@tolfan This post was a big effort for me, it took several months of fruitless modding to get to this point.
It's also fairly common knowledge that much of the SC2 team was brought on to work on WOW once it was determined to be a massive certified hit, hence the delays.
I don't want to argue too much though, this thread wasn't meant to create infighting here as we have plenty of that between the die hards and the people fed up with everything, it really just doesn't go anywhere at this point or do anyone any good.
P.S. I don't think i could make wow better with 5 minutes of development. I do think blizzard could have made SC2 and the editor better with years more of polish, which is what this thread is all about and what blizzard development used to be all about.
@eternalwraith I explicitly stated in my replies everything you want me to "understand". And anyone who played custom games since early starcraft 2 will remember a very steady decline in quality of mapping. There WERE some very talented modders making innovative and fun maps who have since dropped ship. There was a time when modding on SC2 didn't seem so dismal, it's actually gotten WORSE, not better.
@h34dl4g Glad i could make you cry out your d*ck. I will keep my gender and orientation a secret for your sake.
@crazyfingers619: Go
I totally agree. I am in a similar state of mind on this whole matter.
The lack of communication is not just annoying, its crippling to the community. Where is this so called Wiki they promised? There is a link to it when you open the editor. It's hard enough keeping the Starcraft 2 mod community going these days with people leaving out of frustration.
I was also really annoyed by some of the crap at Blizzcon, especially last year:
Only problem is the way they marketed it at Blizzcon with features they failed to deliver or aren't quite up to scratch as they lead on. 3rd person camera with WSAD... which lags in multi-player. I guess that must have slipped their mind.
It would have been nice to know ahead of time of the limitations with the publishing of the maps. Eg. banks weren't and still aren't secure, neither are locked maps.
I only bought this game for the mods, plenty of others did too. The mods are what made Warcraft 3 as successful as it is. Keeping a good level of communication with the mapping community would only improve the quality of the game. Only recently they have actually let us know what they are doing. Hope at last!
I don't know, but I do not own any of them.
I think I know what you meant to say, but that statement just doesn't sit well for me.
As of writing this, 7 people have posted in this thread. So, not even one of these people is a decent mapper? I am assuming when you say this you are in the 10%?
We could help the community improve or we could just insult them. Elitism isn't helping here and I am actually rather disappointed to see a mod of mapster openly say this to the other members of the community.
I know when I started off in Warcraft 3 my maps were terrible, but I was neither useless or untalented. Part of the reason I haven't released anything yet is because I still need to refine my ideas instead of beginning something I will get bored of (like I did in Warcraft 3) or something I finish which nobody would want to play.
Lets not have unrealistic expectations. The reasons for the lag in WASD play was clearly explained by them. The core game architecture at the moment can only do so much. Its built around RTS response times. There are tweaks and methods of eliminating most lag through WASD at the moment.
I`d say a "few" others did too. Single player and Melee multiplayer are the largest and main player base.
The mods are what "kept" Warcraft 3 successful and going toward/and long after the end of its life cycle. It never "made" Warcraft 3 successful. A point you fail to realize.
1. How do you come to that conclusion?(rhetorical question). Read your statement again, and you`ll realize how easily you draw up false presumptions.
2. Irrelevant and besides the point. Again, you draw assumptions.
3. Not elitism. The only problem I see here is the same old whining and complaining. I Never said anything against members in specific of this community, get your facts straight before so readily calling out a mod or expect a possible warning. My job is to keep this place in order as best as possible. People make it difficult due to their ill-informed nature and attitude. I dont expect nor desire to be liked for what I have to do as a Mod.
4. Good for you.
Do not expect me to return reply anymore in this thread. Ive now stated all thats to be said.
P.S For the record. I consider many people from Sc2mapster to be in that upper 10% of talented people.
@EternalWraith: Go
I see I have made a few assumptions here and I apologize for some of the misconceptions I have responded about.
I never played the multi-player melee games much, but really enjoyed the campaign. I haven't failed to realize that at all. My point was that without the mods the game wouldn't have sold as many copies and had as much activity online as it did.
Without mods you would have no DotA. Without DotA, would it have been as successful? Definitely not.
(1) I don't think you can put numbers on a modder's ability to make a fun map. A fun map to someone may not be fun to another. I admit I could have taken a different approach to explaining it, but I didn't.
(2) Assumption FAIL and like you mentioned unnecessary. Sorry.
(3) I should have worded this better because I didn't mean any disrespect. However being a new member and seeing that comment made me somewhat defensive because I felt it was kind of harsh. It doesn't help that I have had a toothache all week. Once again I apologize.
(4) Yay!
Fair enough. I probably should have clarified whether you were talking specifically about the mapmaking community (including those who don't visit this site) or just Sc2mapster.
I believe that most of those who do visit Sc2mapster will try and produce good maps and will seek advice and suggestions rather than release maps which just clog up the servers.
comment, not reply:
1/i thought the post was a good read ..bit on the aggro side, but when one feels cheated ...how do you remain 100% fair and/or focused?.
2/i don't understand when people fail to see what proper lobbying is?
How "not doing it right" has the reverse effect of what was lobbied for in the first place.
(ie: bad customer claims drown out good ones = easier for disclaimers to argue that they must further delay "future difficult/risky after purchase ventures".
Blizzard sells a product. We are customers.
In the case of buying a software, it's a lot like buying a car or a house... (i'll pm the analogy to anyone who asks):
They do not support the editor.
The editor is bound by blizznet platform, and said bnet IS SUPPORTED by blizz
i mean they cater as proficiently as they can for it...(in today's marketplace, not needing to do it, still not "abandoning mapmakers) gotto <3 blizz
But they lay their attention (where/when they add for customer service) to their target:
For now, and probably until Lov their target is not the mapmaking community, but the new influx of players on sc2.
----BLIZZ WILL IMPLEMENT STUFF THAT THEY CAN.
(from here on, i'll be focusing solely on the issue from the mapmaking community's point of view)
An example: Barrin (a tl invested mapmaker) gained what he properly lobbied for: creep conundrum solved, to his taste
...because he did it in a respected customer fashion and was supported by a huge follow through on line everywhere (croos realms/sites anyone?) of other constructive customers.
(Bear in mind that i would have liked the spread to have remained random, while still support the purpose of the change).
This is but one example, on a minor issue?
DON'T ASK FOR SOMETHING UNREASONABLE OUTRIGHT , please prefer long steady lobbying for those core vital issues we really stand to loose from if not implemented/"opened", this method will amount to better bridge gaping with disclaimer.
blizz are going to do their "w0 w1 w2 sc1 w3 sc2" bit/bid... they will add dark archons in HoS and so on, who's to say where/when they'll stop...,
i'm personally rooting/hopping/hoping for "art tools" around release (i'd say beta release) of Lov...
... me needs to be there = need to be selectable by blizz = do what's necessary to get in = be nice to blizz = sell their product for them=never bash uselessly (although i ALSO support the need for such posts)
Their marketing and release strategies are bound by so many parameters tis mindboogling to the layman, juvenile posting DEMANDING stuff that is above even blizz's pay grade is counter productive as hell.
Just think about someone wanting his NA account change to KR for one...
AAAAA .. blizz is more powerful than obama! They got into KR clean!.. Just gotta supply them with a valid work permit for the country...
(blizz can/would/will do this change, but they do want to "tamper" these accesses' request preemptively... we're talking about gamers after all...?!).
Sorry for textbuilding, for quick read, www format:...
blizz no care about these posts...
you not get invited to Lov alpha, me sad (me know how it feels, was sad to be out of sc2beta)
blizz more "frightened" of mass customers concerted efficient lobbying
gotta unite not parse the community
have good day mapping, me like people (the op for one) who speak their mind and do so on great mapmakers' forums
There was no DotA when the game released and therefore it had no affect on sales. People bought it for the continued awesomeness from WC2 and it was the next best thing from SC for SC fans. It had an awesome storyline and with the announcement of World of Warcraft shortly after, that's probably what gave it it's extra boost of sales, not DoTA.
Warcraft 3 had Tower Defense, and it's way bigger than DoTA I would say. It's in Apps for phones, websites, flash games, etc. If anything gave WC3 life, it was Tower Defenses which were there in beta and release. They were highly played before and even after DoTA. And it was probably the first decent thing that was made in SC2.
Just thought I would point out that DoTA or mods in general had nothing to do with sales for WC3, especially intial sales. And anyone who bought WC3 after initial sales, usually had no idea of DoTA until after already buying it, unless specifically refered from a friend. & They probably bought it for the story because of WoW.
Also, mods (custom maps) were a bonus, ever since WC2. It has been a bonus to be able to make custom maps. It's not something that comes with every game, an editor which allows anyone to easily learn and make a custom map/mod using their engine. I am not saying it didn't help sales, especially after SC1, it was expected to have an editor. But that's not the reason WC3 sold, I am sure it helped out but as for the main reason, no, that had nothing to do with it. People would of bought it anyways even without an editor.
Anyway's carry on.
Edit: I agree
@QuantumMenace: Go
You may get your wish. I for one don't see the MM ever being launched. It should be obvious that it would be a dud at this point.
Despite the failings of Blizzard and the (debatable) worse quality of their newer games over their older games, Blizzard still got a lot more right then some other companies do.
I think its a little premature to make too many declarations of doom about its failure. Its clear to me that it was "rushed to completion" as you say, to some extent - they themselves admit a lot of features they wanted to include didn't make it. I just think a lot of people have too high expectations. Blizzard games have always taken until their expansion to make them become the legacies that they are.
IMO, they've created a good foundation even if its currently lacking. I honestly think they can still succeed. You just didn't see the kind of changes they've put out in these patches in other games, so imagine what the expansions will be like?
There will always be some fundamental problems that will never be fixed, but no game is perfect and I don't see that as such a big deal.
I still haven't read the OP properly yet because hey, just look at it, but... Bronxsy does make an extremely valid point. The reason this whole site exists, the reason YOU are here is because Blizzard chooses to release editors for their games in such a fashion that they're easy to learn and work with. If you really think Blizz is 'letting the modding community down' by that, go play some stuff by EA. That's not to say you can't criticize what they're doing if you fear they might be taking some wrong directions in supporting us, but just as I've seen in WoW, people tend to overreact massively. You should be 'mildly annoyed' by things like that, and state that 'it might be better if they do X'. Not that THE COMMUNITY IS DEAD and BLIZZARD KILLED IT and KOTICK IS SATAN INCARNATE.
Well, gotta disagree with that. For Sc2 the Editor is no bonus anymore. They actively advertised the editor and it's features as a selling point. Makes it part of the package, imo.
Anyway, the OP basically re-states all the things which have been said a hundred times by a hundred different people.
And the only thing these posts are doing is stirr up heated discussions. Luckily we at mapster are somewhat civilized.
If you post controverse stuff on the battlenet forums it feels like a civil war breaks out everytime.
The only accuse I haven't heard of yet is that Blizzard hasn't made the DotA. And I'm sure if Blizzard actually did then people would magically foresee how Blizz will shutdown and ban all Dota-esque maps once they publish it!