I have to make this quick but... I have four different maps Ive been working on since about october. I keep running into road blocks. Mainly in the data editor, but a few triggers aswell.
So my question to you guys is...
If I were to design a map/game on paper, but have someone else implement it, who gets the credit? Id say 2 of my four ideas are GREAT map ideas. Ones that would just be epic. But I fail. lol. I would hope that if I had someone make it, I would still get credit for the idea, the ingenuity(sp?). But where does my credit end and the creators begin???
There are hundreds of good ideas that are come up with every day. The difficult part is managing to implement one and putting in the massive amount of time and effort to create a polished version.
I have to make this quick but... I have four different maps Ive been working on since about october. I keep running into road blocks. Mainly in the data editor, but a few triggers aswell.
Get some friends to help, recruit some people, post questions in the forums. Options to consider.
So my question to you guys is... If I were to design a map/game on paper, but have someone else implement it, who gets the credit? Id say 2 of my four ideas are GREAT map ideas. Ones that would just be epic. But I fail. lol.
Whoever implements the idea fully and perfectly gets all the credit. Simple as that. If, however, you took a more active participation in its development, then the credit would be split. You would be "Co-designer".
If you are able to manage a team effectively and personally see to it that the idea is developed from concept to completion, Then you`d be "Lead project/game designer". Still getting the most credit but, its definitely more challenging going this path.
Edit: Coming up with an idea does not make you a "designer" per se.
Quoted for truth. Actually, I could have quoted everything EternalWraith said because he's completely right. Everyone taking part in a project (including coming up with the concept of a map) is part of the team, therefore can be in the credits list. You just have to ask. The only thing that will change, depending on how much you were implied in the production process, is the title you deserve. If you just give the idea and let people do whatever they want out of it, the best title you'll have is "concept writer" or something very similar (as opposed to "concept artists", if you already built a few parts of the map)... It's only a matter of names and titles.
I would say the "implementor" deserves more credit generally, because the creation process is more tedious, time consuming and error-prone.
Ideas are quick to come by, but if someone manages to nurish an idea and turn it into a fully fledged (good) concept then he definitely deserves credit.
But there is more to a concept than "Ok this is how the story goes". It means designing everything from units/abilities and how they fit into the setting to the UI and controls.
I wouldn't give any credit to ideas; they are useless if you can't implement them. It's the implementation that counts and you get credit for how much you contribute to that.
For instance if you make an extensive draft of all your ideas and how they fit together to form the game + fleshed out story, then you get credit, because that assists your developers in moving forward with the project. I liken this akin to a design patent.
Depends on the credit. In its roots, 'credit' that is 'due' means 'reward' for 'work done' (or goods delivered, but that's something that doesn't really apply here). If payment isn't involved, then the 'credit' you should get is a mention of exactly what you did in the credits section of the map. If you came up with the idea, the credits section should say "thanks to BasicGear for coming up with the idea". If you came up with the idea and instructed everyone, the credits section should say "thanks to BasicGear for coming up with the idea and guiding everyone". That's really is all there is to 'credit'.
The whole problem with the word 'credit' is, that, similar to other words you see in the world of business ('manager', 'CEO'), its meaning has been made needlessly vague. By the people in those positions to hide the fact that they're doing shit all, I would personally say. Going back to the roots of such words is what you need to figure out exactly what it means, should mean, and what purpose it should serve for you.
Case in point is your example; Vexal is saying "the designer should get no credit", but what does 'credit' actually mean? All it means in this case is a mention that person X came up with the idea. If you actually came up with the idea, then why shouldn't whoever turns your idea into a map state in the credits that you came up with the idea? What does it truly matter?
The value of the 'credit' given shouldn't be decided by any of us, but by whoever reads it. If I'm a person that puts a LOT of weight by ideas, then I will 'praise' you specifically for that map, since you came up with the idea. If, like the majority of folks, I'm not too thrilled by the ideas but by the people who implemented it, then I probably won't remember your name.
Ideas are a dime a dozen. Implementing them well and making them fun is where the effort comes in, generally speaking.
Some ideas are quite good though, choosing to design something that's DOABLE, FUN, and UNIQUE (but not too crazy). That is the holy trinity of a good game design, sounds like you got 2 out of 3 if you can't quite crank it out yourself ;)
Also how involved would you be during the development? Feedback to designers is incredibly important, in this case you would be credited as a creative director i believe.
DotA with a twist: Probably not worth giving credit for the idea
Brand new concept that has never been seen before: Worth giving credit to the designer
Truer words have not been spoken. Ideas come up in all walks of life, and ideas themselves aren't worth anything. Implementation is what seperates and idea from reality, and what gives an idea strength. Anyone can sit around and think of ideas all day. Seeing a project through to completion is one of the hardest things anyone can do. It requires dedication and hard work. These are values that are worth something.
I think you'll find, too, that if you have someone else do the implementation, that those implementors have ideas of their own that may conflict with yours. Since they are in the position of power (being the people doing the real work), their ideas will almost always trump yours. That is unless you are a true designer.
There's a strong distinction between and idea man and a designer. An idea man thinks in the abstract. A designer thinks in the concrete. While the idea man is concerned with coming up with a really good idea, the designer is interested in solutions to very real problems. The designer is a step away from the implementor and will usually work hand-in-hand, with the implementor handing off certain problems or conceptual ideas to the designer. The really big difference is the the idea man's job is done when the idea is done. The designers job is done when the project is done. It's a big distinction.
The are other avenues you may wish to pursue, like perhaps the "story designer", "art director", or "creative director" as mentioned. It's important to be clear about what you contributions will be. The more you are willing to contribute, the more willing someone else will be to hop on board. Anyone who's going to work with/for you is going to want to see that you are as determined as they are.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pocket Warriors - A pokemon-style game with SC2 units and full banking. New demo coming soon!
"ideas are a dime a dozen bla"... or other = spoken by people who lack
ideas... or who don't even know what they are how they redefine
things...
as it has been said before all that defines "credit" here is a line on a
"credits" page or roll... and u guys brush it like someone was asking
for the use of your girlfriend for a night
i shouldn't go further, but such an attitude makes my aggro rise (gotta
go run with my kid on my shoulders, at least he'll have fun out of your
poor judgment getting a rise out of me):
galaxy is just a software, people who build the software deserve credit
(my maps have always said : done by Blizzard and me, not the other way
around) ...
ideas rule the world, of course you need people to make them happen,
however each time a dreamer looses his "credit" the world that could be
dies a little (and there's nothing much left by now) ... see the state
the world is in... that's cause people kill dreamers... they are too
scarry
Ideas go unrealized all the time. An idea by itself holds no weight. Without money or people backing an idea, the idea is meaningless. That's all there is to it. Did you miss the part about how if your only contribution is an idea, it will be subverted by those with the real power (the implementors)? You have to know that to be true.
I'm not saying you shouldn't give credit to someone for an idea. A line on the credits really doesn't mean much, but it can mean the world to the person recieving credit. It's an easy win. I'm saying that an idea by itself will most likely not gain followers. I'm saying that if you're thinking of entering a project with an idea as your only contribution, that you should consider what other contributions you could bring to the table if you actually want your idea realized. Otherwise, either nothing will happen at all, or the implementors will diverge heavily from the original idea.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pocket Warriors - A pokemon-style game with SC2 units and full banking. New demo coming soon!
The designer should get no credit. Most ideas already exist. The trick is finding innovative ways to use the editor to implement them.
If you dont use the editor yourself, you're not doing anything at all.
No, the trick is finding innovative ways of implementing them. Implementation of an idea is far more than just the technical aspect (editor work). I haven't done much in the editor, but I've done quite a lot. Your view is an ignorant one stemming from solo development.
I've got an idea, how about a game where you run around as a plumber and stomp on mushrooms? See where i'm going with this? This is a terrible pitch for a game but it ended up being one of the greatest of all time. The fact is fact Mario was never planned like this, decisions were made during development that if summed up all at once without their technical considerations wouldn't make any sense .You can move in made air? WTF? But this is necessary considering the restrictions of jumping in platformers. In fact the revolutionary jumping mechanics were one of the shining becons of game design at the time. It's incredible how well these mechanics still hold up today, and these were put together on an 8 bit nintendo cartridge. The devil truly is in the details when it comes to making a good game. Hone the core systems, make them run well and everything will fall into place.
Hey i've got an idea for a game. You cook. (cooking mama) (not to be confused with aeur chef, haha)
Hey I've got an idea for a game. You deliver newspapers (Paperboy)
Hey I've got an idea for a game. You stack blocks (Tetris)
None of these games sound fun as an idea. It's all in the implementation.
That's not to say you can't have good ideas about implementing new gameplay systems though ;).
With all due respect, did any of you actually read my post? This may be a futile attempt, but what I'm saying is that 'credit' should always be given and it should be up to whoever sees this 'credit' to assign worth to it. We cannot (or at least, should not, imo) assign worth to objects or services for other players. Yet everything I see people doing in this thread is judging judging judging judging. Usually I don't bother when my point is ignored, but... really? Are we this intent on force-feeding others our opinions?
(Yes, I see the spick of irony in that sentence =P)
I have to make this quick but... I have four different maps Ive been working on since about october. I keep running into road blocks. Mainly in the data editor, but a few triggers aswell.
So my question to you guys is... If I were to design a map/game on paper, but have someone else implement it, who gets the credit? Id say 2 of my four ideas are GREAT map ideas. Ones that would just be epic. But I fail. lol. I would hope that if I had someone make it, I would still get credit for the idea, the ingenuity(sp?). But where does my credit end and the creators begin???
thanks for the feedback
There are hundreds of good ideas that are come up with every day. The difficult part is managing to implement one and putting in the massive amount of time and effort to create a polished version.
My thoughts? Little to no credit.
Get some friends to help, recruit some people, post questions in the forums. Options to consider.
Whoever implements the idea fully and perfectly gets all the credit. Simple as that. If, however, you took a more active participation in its development, then the credit would be split. You would be "Co-designer".
If you are able to manage a team effectively and personally see to it that the idea is developed from concept to completion, Then you`d be "Lead project/game designer". Still getting the most credit but, its definitely more challenging going this path.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment ;p
Edit: Coming up with an idea does not make you a "designer" per se.
I would give you credit for the initial idea, the concept design, or whatever fits. Programmers have their department. Terrain artists, etc.
I even give credit to draft writers or artist. Even if I remake everything.
It's all we have, you know. It's the least we can do to our fellows.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
no no no
Quoted for truth. Actually, I could have quoted everything EternalWraith said because he's completely right. Everyone taking part in a project (including coming up with the concept of a map) is part of the team, therefore can be in the credits list. You just have to ask. The only thing that will change, depending on how much you were implied in the production process, is the title you deserve. If you just give the idea and let people do whatever they want out of it, the best title you'll have is "concept writer" or something very similar (as opposed to "concept artists", if you already built a few parts of the map)... It's only a matter of names and titles.
I would say the "implementor" deserves more credit generally, because the creation process is more tedious, time consuming and error-prone.
Ideas are quick to come by, but if someone manages to nurish an idea and turn it into a fully fledged (good) concept then he definitely deserves credit.
But there is more to a concept than "Ok this is how the story goes". It means designing everything from units/abilities and how they fit into the setting to the UI and controls.
Also, no credit for reinventing the wheel.
I wouldn't give any credit to ideas; they are useless if you can't implement them. It's the implementation that counts and you get credit for how much you contribute to that.
For instance if you make an extensive draft of all your ideas and how they fit together to form the game + fleshed out story, then you get credit, because that assists your developers in moving forward with the project. I liken this akin to a design patent.
Depends on the credit. In its roots, 'credit' that is 'due' means 'reward' for 'work done' (or goods delivered, but that's something that doesn't really apply here). If payment isn't involved, then the 'credit' you should get is a mention of exactly what you did in the credits section of the map. If you came up with the idea, the credits section should say "thanks to BasicGear for coming up with the idea". If you came up with the idea and instructed everyone, the credits section should say "thanks to BasicGear for coming up with the idea and guiding everyone". That's really is all there is to 'credit'.
The whole problem with the word 'credit' is, that, similar to other words you see in the world of business ('manager', 'CEO'), its meaning has been made needlessly vague. By the people in those positions to hide the fact that they're doing shit all, I would personally say. Going back to the roots of such words is what you need to figure out exactly what it means, should mean, and what purpose it should serve for you.
Case in point is your example; Vexal is saying "the designer should get no credit", but what does 'credit' actually mean? All it means in this case is a mention that person X came up with the idea. If you actually came up with the idea, then why shouldn't whoever turns your idea into a map state in the credits that you came up with the idea? What does it truly matter?
The value of the 'credit' given shouldn't be decided by any of us, but by whoever reads it. If I'm a person that puts a LOT of weight by ideas, then I will 'praise' you specifically for that map, since you came up with the idea. If, like the majority of folks, I'm not too thrilled by the ideas but by the people who implemented it, then I probably won't remember your name.
Amen.
Ideas are a dime a dozen. Implementing them well and making them fun is where the effort comes in, generally speaking.
Some ideas are quite good though, choosing to design something that's DOABLE, FUN, and UNIQUE (but not too crazy). That is the holy trinity of a good game design, sounds like you got 2 out of 3 if you can't quite crank it out yourself ;)
Also how involved would you be during the development? Feedback to designers is incredibly important, in this case you would be credited as a creative director i believe.
DotA with a twist: Probably not worth giving credit for the idea
Brand new concept that has never been seen before: Worth giving credit to the designer
Truer words have not been spoken. Ideas come up in all walks of life, and ideas themselves aren't worth anything. Implementation is what seperates and idea from reality, and what gives an idea strength. Anyone can sit around and think of ideas all day. Seeing a project through to completion is one of the hardest things anyone can do. It requires dedication and hard work. These are values that are worth something.
I think you'll find, too, that if you have someone else do the implementation, that those implementors have ideas of their own that may conflict with yours. Since they are in the position of power (being the people doing the real work), their ideas will almost always trump yours. That is unless you are a true designer.
There's a strong distinction between and idea man and a designer. An idea man thinks in the abstract. A designer thinks in the concrete. While the idea man is concerned with coming up with a really good idea, the designer is interested in solutions to very real problems. The designer is a step away from the implementor and will usually work hand-in-hand, with the implementor handing off certain problems or conceptual ideas to the designer. The really big difference is the the idea man's job is done when the idea is done. The designers job is done when the project is done. It's a big distinction.
The are other avenues you may wish to pursue, like perhaps the "story designer", "art director", or "creative director" as mentioned. It's important to be clear about what you contributions will be. The more you are willing to contribute, the more willing someone else will be to hop on board. Anyone who's going to work with/for you is going to want to see that you are as determined as they are.
@jaminv: Go
Well said.
no no no
Ideas go unrealized all the time. An idea by itself holds no weight. Without money or people backing an idea, the idea is meaningless. That's all there is to it. Did you miss the part about how if your only contribution is an idea, it will be subverted by those with the real power (the implementors)? You have to know that to be true.
I'm not saying you shouldn't give credit to someone for an idea. A line on the credits really doesn't mean much, but it can mean the world to the person recieving credit. It's an easy win. I'm saying that an idea by itself will most likely not gain followers. I'm saying that if you're thinking of entering a project with an idea as your only contribution, that you should consider what other contributions you could bring to the table if you actually want your idea realized. Otherwise, either nothing will happen at all, or the implementors will diverge heavily from the original idea.
no no no
No, the trick is finding innovative ways of implementing them. Implementation of an idea is far more than just the technical aspect (editor work). I haven't done much in the editor, but I've done quite a lot. Your view is an ignorant one stemming from solo development.
I've got an idea, how about a game where you run around as a plumber and stomp on mushrooms? See where i'm going with this? This is a terrible pitch for a game but it ended up being one of the greatest of all time. The fact is fact Mario was never planned like this, decisions were made during development that if summed up all at once without their technical considerations wouldn't make any sense .You can move in made air? WTF? But this is necessary considering the restrictions of jumping in platformers. In fact the revolutionary jumping mechanics were one of the shining becons of game design at the time. It's incredible how well these mechanics still hold up today, and these were put together on an 8 bit nintendo cartridge. The devil truly is in the details when it comes to making a good game. Hone the core systems, make them run well and everything will fall into place.
Hey i've got an idea for a game. You cook. (cooking mama) (not to be confused with aeur chef, haha) Hey I've got an idea for a game. You deliver newspapers (Paperboy) Hey I've got an idea for a game. You stack blocks (Tetris)
None of these games sound fun as an idea. It's all in the implementation.
That's not to say you can't have good ideas about implementing new gameplay systems though ;).
no no no
With all due respect, did any of you actually read my post? This may be a futile attempt, but what I'm saying is that 'credit' should always be given and it should be up to whoever sees this 'credit' to assign worth to it. We cannot (or at least, should not, imo) assign worth to objects or services for other players. Yet everything I see people doing in this thread is judging judging judging judging. Usually I don't bother when my point is ignored, but... really? Are we this intent on force-feeding others our opinions?
(Yes, I see the spick of irony in that sentence =P)