Instead of flattering myself, I will just point to another example. Have you heard of DotA? Guess what? Done with a more primitive editor! Your argument about a small scale not requiring a designer may or may not be valid. I don't care to really go into it because the premise is false.
You have a tendency to ignore my points and just bring up new ones instead. I'll take that as an admission of defeat. There is one I can't let you off on though, why aren't the editor gods spewing blockbusters left and right? Why were the most talented modders of WC3 usually dwarfed by amateurs in terms of map success?
You claim the positions you could do in an afternoon are useless. Those being triggerer and terrainer. But, your terrain looks like shit. Your triggers are primitive because your map is just a generic TD. You fail at deduction. A team is required because no one person excels at all things, it just doesn't happen. Let me rephrase, a team is required if you want to produce the best game you possibly can.
Finally, I frequently mention your map because it is the only thing we have to point to. Who is Vexal? What is Vexal capable of creating? What makes Vexal someone to listen to on matters of game design or credit? From my point of view, nobody.
Everyone has ideas. No one here is placing value on the idea. It is the piecing together of ideas to form a coherent game that counts.
You do have to have some artistic and technical abilities in order to be a good designer. You don't have to be at the same level as the people doing the implementation. You just need to know enough not to ask for the impossible.
Very few games are made from scratch these days. I suppose the game industry has very few designers then?
Define "fucked up". I have autism. Maybe that is what you're referring to.
I didn't know that or intend to refer to that. Calling such a thing "fucked up" would be in quite bad taste. I was thinking more along the lines of you being an asshole and full of yourself. Can't blame autism for that.
I very often receive emails from players suggesting ideas for my TD...If an idea for a good inplmentation was suggested, I'd have to refuse. Id feel guilty otherwise.
You feel guilty if you implemented a good idea that has been suggested to you by someone? By suggesting you something this person already allows you to use his idea in your project, and he would be glad to see it done.
From experience most people don't care about credit for an idea or a suggestion. They just want to see the game improve so they have more fun in playing it (a reward in itself already).
I only ever gave credits when I'm using something which took a considerable amount of work to do. E.g. everything art related or complete systems.
Or if the idea was indeed new (e.g. someone came up with a tricky way to find the host in wc3 multiplayer.. that wasn't possible before).
Still, I had about 10-12 persons I gave credit to in my largest wc3 map.
Once again, you completely ignore the important points that I bring up. Instead, you choose to defend your terrain and the idea that I shouldn't be mentioning your map. You also demonstrated your lack of understanding of what a full game is. At least you provided a disclaimer!
Since you felt the need to defend it so strongly, I will discuss your terrain. Perhaps "shit" was the wrong word. It isn't terrible, there is far worse terrain out there. But, it isn't good either. I tend to consider "average" as bad. It is, as you said, boring. Boring does not just mean lack of clutter. Boring could be partially alleviated with simply tileset changes. You said you conducted tests and found clutter to be distracting, that isn't very useful information now is it? How much clutter? Where? What type of clutter? How distracting? Just you?
So, let's try this another way. For the purposes of getting something useful out of you, let's assume your terrain is awesome and that VTD is completely irrelevant. Care to address the real points?
Also, development should never be about yourself. This isn't an idea generating competition. The real talent is putting different ideas together to form a coherent whole. I don't care where the credit for specific ideas in my game go to. I've taken a couple things from DotA for instance, and back in WC3 that was obvious. In the end, the only credit I care for is whether the game is good or not.
The editor does not support small scale games only. DotA is the shining example of this, and from WC3. The tools are there. Whether people use them is a different story. Therefore, the whole designer is redundant idea is false.
Judging from both SC2 and WC3, editor aptitude does not translate into success. The most talented modders have consistently been outdone by amateurs. Therefore, the whole editor skill is god idea is false.
A team is greater than no team. It is not required, you're right about that. But, you also can't produce something optimal without it. There are areas where you are lacking. This shows itself more as the scale of the game grows. Therefore, a team is a good idea.
Starting from scratch is not what design is about. That's because design isn't limited to generating ideas. The game industry reuses ideas all the time. There are no designers left in the industry based on your definition.
Design is about putting the pieces together to complete the puzzle. It is not about making the pieces. A lot of times, the people making the pieces suck at completing the puzzle. So, stop mentioning sparkly new ideas as important. They aren't.
I may have attacked your credibility more than necessary. I don't recall contradicting you in Meph's thread though. I agree that the coding/data is irrelevant to success, and have held this view for a long time.
It's not like legos either. In legos, the pieces are only pre-made and the pieces you can use are fixed. This is much more of a constraint. In games, the pieces come in both pre-made and made varieties and the pieces you can use are virtually infinite (yes, there is some limit but it isn't realistic to hit it).
By scratch I mean a new concept. You seem to value ideas that are yours alone. You also said that because modding isn't making a game from scratch, a designer is not needed. I'm just saying that is setting the bar too high.
DotA is not a mini-game. There have been numerous "full" games based off of it that have fared worse!
For map making I don't see designer being a valid position unless you're managing a rather large team of people. Then you need somebody to keep everybody focused and working towards the same end goals. Otherwise you'll start to get conflicts in design. Even then you're impact on the overall project is minimal.
Convincing people to work for you would be nigh impossible if all you're capable of doing is saying "Wouldn't it be cool if..." I think if you're going to assume the role of designer/overlord of a project then you need the technical skills to contribute to the team, but also to know what is and isn't feasible (which takes intimate knowledge of using the editor.)
I don't see why you're still debating about this... The answer is pretty simple, EVERYONE implicated in a project has to be credited for his work. The only thing that will change is the title given to the guy, which depends on how much he was implicated in this project.
It's as simple as that, and it was actually stated in the first page. The guy who came up with the idea, and did nothing more, is the concept writer. The title he deserves changes with the tasks he does in the project, so the concept writer could also be the game designer, if he keeps improving the game and discuss with the team on what the project will become (or not). It's REALLY only a matter of role(s) you play in the creation process, but anyway EVERYONE deserves a title. That's why you can see the Marketing team credited in various retail games: they don't take part in the process of creating the game but they had their role anyway, so they are in the credits. That's also why you can read someone's name multiple times, if he had multiple roles. Really, it's as simple as that.
Seriously guys, there is no need to debate about this. Credits are due to anyone, period. If you use any level editor, you'll credit the authors. If you share your map on SC2Mapster, you'll credit the community. If someone gave you the main idea of your map, you'll credit him... And I personally also like to thank people who helped me when I got stuck, my maps wouldn't exist if they weren't here to help! ;)