Yeah. The thing is, at this point I think I have to let those things go. Given the tech you have available now, I can't prevent every single cheesy strategy.
I'll just repost what our benevolent mapmaker has already said about this. Implementing some bizarre mechanic just isn't worth the time in many cases. If you want to bypass the challenge and intent of the map, no one really cares unless it is clearly a widespread exploit. If you can build a crap ton of Banshees or Battlecruisers, then you probably could have won with another strategy anyway.
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Exactly. I don't think I would go so far to add complicated mechanics just to force people to enter a base directly instead of finding an easier path. I'll do what I can to prevent huge exploits of the map, but minor things may still be possible given the tech you have.
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StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
I bet that Dudki's house is flooded by cheese right now... Map 17 RTS doesn't need these changes btw, even with cannon/energy drain I can alwais spam nukes... Can i say that your campaign is probably the best (probably because is still to be finished), i like that most maps have multiple phases and are lengthy, there's a lot of stuff to do, especially on the L E N G H T Y ones, and even if ton of stuff to do, They are stil la action packed, you rarely have time to breath (except the defensive section of map 17 [do you even attack bro?] and very few others). Can't wait to play the final mission on 2020 :D
You can cheese some of the Blizzard maps too with Drop Pods and shit. The point is if people are determined to cheese a map with some lame strategy and deprive themselves of the fun, no one is standing over their shoulder and saying "stop it". I used to make 20 Scouts and kill Aldaris in Brood War up the side of the map. Temper expectations.
An exploit would be like Mission 15 when I was able to bypass sections that were meant to be unpassable by invulnerable rocks until a specific criteria was met. An exploit is not making flying units and blitzing to the objective - a strategy you can use on many official maps too when the tech becomes available.
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
The best macro maps allow the player to choose from multiple strategies to complete. Dudki has done a great job with that in the entire campaign, but especially with the last few maps with the amount of unit and upgrade choices available. If he tries to eliminate cheese or exploits entirely, I feel like that just limits the player on options to beat a map. Adding detection to the enemy base to avoid the player from getting a free path to the objective is one thing, but if the player wants to 1 base and rush a map, why not? If they want to mass nuke, let them.
You guys get the point - limiting possible exploits and cheese is limiting the player's creativity. In the end, all of these campaigns are meant to bring the player enjoyment through gameplay and possibly a story that leaves a lasting impact. This is not multiplayer where balance is the goal and competition is key. The only prize in beating a map is personal satisfaction. If cheesing maps helps you attain satisfaction, then cheese the hell out of it.
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Just finished M17. Definitely the most difficult mission overall so far, at least for me. The macro section and the boss battle are very challenging, but like you said, the difficulty makes sense for what's at stake. I did read through the changes you made to the boss encounter, and I just have to say I'm happy I waited to play this now instead of earlier. My only suggestion would to be to beef up the Iduran's defenses up a bit - the attacks against your base are frequent enough that I don't think you should have to worry about protecting your allies as well. Or at least have a notification saying that you must prevent their Nexus from being destroyed, as I learned the hard way.
I hope we get a bit of a breather in the next mission though!
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Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
I'm glad you were able to complete it! Hope the boss didn't take you too many tries :)
After the Idu'ran base is revealed and Khaduros tells you that they're preparing their attacks, I did create an objective that said you had to keep the allied Nexus alive. I suppose you musn't have noticed?
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StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
Oops yep I just didn't notice the objective. It should've been intuitive anyways though, so my bad.
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Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Just finished Map 17 - the Protoss and Zerg bases being beefed up the way they are makes it sort of irritating. I get why they are that way, but there's no indication you shouldn't try to wipe them out to stop the attacks until you lose an army trying to do it - it seemed intuitive to try to destroy their bases. The Idu'ran also frequently threw their attacking units away into those bases more often than not so they were pretty much unhelpful the whole time.
The attacks being non-stop with no way to eliminate the enemy production makes sense to uphold the challenge, but maybe you should remove the bases entirely and spawn the attack waves offscreen instead. Breaking into the front of the RSSI base even just on Hard difficulty was very rough as the Idu'ran never got remotely close because they walked into the super bases pretty much every time and I couldn't get any reinforcements up there in time to continue the assault.
I think this is on the cusp of being one of the best macro maps I've played, but there are minor things that added up to that made the first section bothersome to me personally.
On the other hand, I found the boss to be uniquely intense and probably the most enjoyable I've played since Col Kovac in Aureolin Eclipse :)
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
That's funny. I think there's quite a bit of luck involved with the way the allied AI works. I personally found that they reached the base pretty often. I designed the Idu'ran to help you push, so I can understand that may be annoying! I'll have to see if I can tweak the AI to prevent it from suciding into the bases, or perhaps find some other solution.
On the other hand, I found the boss to be uniquely intense and probably the most enjoyable I've played since Col Kovac in Aureolin Eclipse :)
I am very pleased to hear that!
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StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
Looking back on my recording now, you're definitely right. They made it down there often pretty early, it was later on when I needed them that they weren't making it and I was sort of salty at that point so my view was clouded, haha.
Edit: I didn't mention mission 16 - you are absolutely killing it with awesome boss fights in both 16 and 17. Someone should bundle all yours up like that Epic Boss Battles map that won Rock the Cabinet a few years back as people obviously like that map style and I bet it would perform well on the Arcade!
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
Same thing happened when I played M17. Ally would make it to the main enemy base early on, but later kept attacking the side bases. I get a little frustrated in my playthrough - but that's mostly due to my heroes continuously dying in inopportune times. Thank god for quick-saving though.
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Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
@DudkiSC2: Go
Edit: I didn't mention mission 16 - you are absolutely killing it with awesome boss fights in both 16 and 17. Someone should bundle all yours up like that Epic Boss Battles map that won Rock the Cabinet a few years back as people obviously like that map style and I bet it would perform well on the Arcade!
I love making boss fights. They are just so rewarding to finish and allows my creativity to go wild like nothing else!
@JayborinoPlays: Go
Ally would make it to the main enemy base early on, but later kept attacking the side bases.
Yeah, for this reason I might need to make some changes. It might be a good idea to allow the player to destroy the bases, as their positions, particularly the Zerg bases, do make them slightly hard to avoid.
StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
Yeah, for this reason I might need to make some changes. It might be a good idea to allow the player to destroy the bases, as their positions, particularly the Zerg bases, do make them slightly hard to avoid.
This is definitely up to you entirely - I think the charm of the macro section is that those bases never let up and can't be stopped, hence never ending pressure as opposed to downhill ease as you start rolling over them, removing their ability to attack you. I just view it as a very mild terrain issue where, if the lanes were widened a bit, your allies would be much less likely to get accidentally pulled into them due to the high sight ranges of their Void Rays, Collosi, and Carriers. Only other thing is the layout of the first expansion - not much room to lay defenses behind the minerals and I had hunter banelings jump up and kill all my workers :) What about flipping the geysers and the mineral patch placements?
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Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
Double damage on bases was a nice denial for cleaning up the map, but on the end useless when you have nukes, or mass bc (the greatest problem with zerg bases were vipers that pulled my BCs, nothing else... For the protoss bases, they have so few units that you can clean them with ease with heroes and the main army, not even the nuke is needed)... Maybe placing that disruption field from the BC mission of WoL could work? Or put more swarm hosts/brood lord and khaydarin towers on the bases to deny early attacks (this option seems more effective imho)... They are vulnerable to nukes on the same way, but at least are not a kind of cheap trick like double damage and serves the same function of attack denial... And remember, i can cheese everything (I find fun on analyzing exploits/ weak points of maps, but i also love not cheese tactics btw, if i have to test something, i do it the hard way, not that i am a super expert on sc2 btw), you CANNOT STOP ME Mwahahahahaha
Right, at this point I probably have to officially put this campaign on hold. I didn't want to for a while, because I figured, "Oh, a couple weeks and it will be fixed" but now it's been 4 weeks, and the Mac editor is still broken from the Patch. 3.8 Nova update. I've already sent in a ticket to customer support last week and got an answer saying they'll work on it, and several others have posted this on the StarCraft II forums as well, so I really can't do anything other than wait - but honestly, it seems the Mac editor is so far down on their priority list so I really don't know how long I'll be waiting.
Anyway, for now, and for the past 4 weeks, this has unfortunately been put on hold.
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StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
I really hope this gets fixed soon... I miss my Annihilation fix.
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Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
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I'll just repost what our benevolent mapmaker has already said about this. Implementing some bizarre mechanic just isn't worth the time in many cases. If you want to bypass the challenge and intent of the map, no one really cares unless it is clearly a widespread exploit. If you can build a crap ton of Banshees or Battlecruisers, then you probably could have won with another strategy anyway.
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
I understood global abilities, short range drain and cannon would make sense btw
@JayborinoPlays: Go
Exactly. I don't think I would go so far to add complicated mechanics just to force people to enter a base directly instead of finding an easier path. I'll do what I can to prevent huge exploits of the map, but minor things may still be possible given the tech you have.
StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
Starcraft II: A War Story Campaign - A multi-act campaign with custom factions. Follow my discord for updates: https://discord.gg/Ztu44gZ
If you want to see a list of other awesome campaigns, go to: Custom Campaign Initiative
I bet that Dudki's house is flooded by cheese right now... Map 17 RTS doesn't need these changes btw, even with cannon/energy drain I can alwais spam nukes... Can i say that your campaign is probably the best (probably because is still to be finished), i like that most maps have multiple phases and are lengthy, there's a lot of stuff to do, especially on the L E N G H T Y ones, and even if ton of stuff to do, They are stil la action packed, you rarely have time to breath (except the defensive section of map 17 [do you even attack bro?] and very few others). Can't wait to play the final mission on 2020 :D
@DudkiSC2: Go
I'm curious, would destroying the objective on 1 base be considered an "exploit"?
The condensed Custom Campaign Initiative is on this Google Sheet!
List of my Custom campaign text reviews (warning: only the first half of each is serious)
@TChosenOne: Go
You can cheese some of the Blizzard maps too with Drop Pods and shit. The point is if people are determined to cheese a map with some lame strategy and deprive themselves of the fun, no one is standing over their shoulder and saying "stop it". I used to make 20 Scouts and kill Aldaris in Brood War up the side of the map. Temper expectations.
An exploit would be like Mission 15 when I was able to bypass sections that were meant to be unpassable by invulnerable rocks until a specific criteria was met. An exploit is not making flying units and blitzing to the objective - a strategy you can use on many official maps too when the tech becomes available.
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
The best macro maps allow the player to choose from multiple strategies to complete. Dudki has done a great job with that in the entire campaign, but especially with the last few maps with the amount of unit and upgrade choices available. If he tries to eliminate cheese or exploits entirely, I feel like that just limits the player on options to beat a map. Adding detection to the enemy base to avoid the player from getting a free path to the objective is one thing, but if the player wants to 1 base and rush a map, why not? If they want to mass nuke, let them.
You guys get the point - limiting possible exploits and cheese is limiting the player's creativity. In the end, all of these campaigns are meant to bring the player enjoyment through gameplay and possibly a story that leaves a lasting impact. This is not multiplayer where balance is the goal and competition is key. The only prize in beating a map is personal satisfaction. If cheesing maps helps you attain satisfaction, then cheese the hell out of it.
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Just finished M17. Definitely the most difficult mission overall so far, at least for me. The macro section and the boss battle are very challenging, but like you said, the difficulty makes sense for what's at stake. I did read through the changes you made to the boss encounter, and I just have to say I'm happy I waited to play this now instead of earlier. My only suggestion would to be to beef up the Iduran's defenses up a bit - the attacks against your base are frequent enough that I don't think you should have to worry about protecting your allies as well. Or at least have a notification saying that you must prevent their Nexus from being destroyed, as I learned the hard way.
I hope we get a bit of a breather in the next mission though!
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
@deltronLive: Go
I'm glad you were able to complete it! Hope the boss didn't take you too many tries :)
After the Idu'ran base is revealed and Khaduros tells you that they're preparing their attacks, I did create an objective that said you had to keep the allied Nexus alive. I suppose you musn't have noticed?
StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
Starcraft II: A War Story Campaign - A multi-act campaign with custom factions. Follow my discord for updates: https://discord.gg/Ztu44gZ
If you want to see a list of other awesome campaigns, go to: Custom Campaign Initiative
@DudkiSC2: Go
Oops yep I just didn't notice the objective. It should've been intuitive anyways though, so my bad.
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Strange, i didn't have problems with the Idurans, i had to help them only two times
Just finished Map 17 - the Protoss and Zerg bases being beefed up the way they are makes it sort of irritating. I get why they are that way, but there's no indication you shouldn't try to wipe them out to stop the attacks until you lose an army trying to do it - it seemed intuitive to try to destroy their bases. The Idu'ran also frequently threw their attacking units away into those bases more often than not so they were pretty much unhelpful the whole time.
The attacks being non-stop with no way to eliminate the enemy production makes sense to uphold the challenge, but maybe you should remove the bases entirely and spawn the attack waves offscreen instead. Breaking into the front of the RSSI base even just on Hard difficulty was very rough as the Idu'ran never got remotely close because they walked into the super bases pretty much every time and I couldn't get any reinforcements up there in time to continue the assault.
I think this is on the cusp of being one of the best macro maps I've played, but there are minor things that added up to that made the first section bothersome to me personally.
On the other hand, I found the boss to be uniquely intense and probably the most enjoyable I've played since Col Kovac in Aureolin Eclipse :)
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
@JayborinoPlays: Go
That's funny. I think there's quite a bit of luck involved with the way the allied AI works. I personally found that they reached the base pretty often. I designed the Idu'ran to help you push, so I can understand that may be annoying! I'll have to see if I can tweak the AI to prevent it from suciding into the bases, or perhaps find some other solution.
I am very pleased to hear that!
StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
Starcraft II: A War Story Campaign - A multi-act campaign with custom factions. Follow my discord for updates: https://discord.gg/Ztu44gZ
If you want to see a list of other awesome campaigns, go to: Custom Campaign Initiative
@DudkiSC2: Go
Looking back on my recording now, you're definitely right. They made it down there often pretty early, it was later on when I needed them that they weren't making it and I was sort of salty at that point so my view was clouded, haha.
Edit: I didn't mention mission 16 - you are absolutely killing it with awesome boss fights in both 16 and 17. Someone should bundle all yours up like that Epic Boss Battles map that won Rock the Cabinet a few years back as people obviously like that map style and I bet it would perform well on the Arcade!
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
@JayborinoPlays: Go
Same thing happened when I played M17. Ally would make it to the main enemy base early on, but later kept attacking the side bases. I get a little frustrated in my playthrough - but that's mostly due to my heroes continuously dying in inopportune times. Thank god for quick-saving though.
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
I love making boss fights. They are just so rewarding to finish and allows my creativity to go wild like nothing else!
Yeah, for this reason I might need to make some changes. It might be a good idea to allow the player to destroy the bases, as their positions, particularly the Zerg bases, do make them slightly hard to avoid.
StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
Starcraft II: A War Story Campaign - A multi-act campaign with custom factions. Follow my discord for updates: https://discord.gg/Ztu44gZ
If you want to see a list of other awesome campaigns, go to: Custom Campaign Initiative
@DudkiSC2: Go
This is definitely up to you entirely - I think the charm of the macro section is that those bases never let up and can't be stopped, hence never ending pressure as opposed to downhill ease as you start rolling over them, removing their ability to attack you. I just view it as a very mild terrain issue where, if the lanes were widened a bit, your allies would be much less likely to get accidentally pulled into them due to the high sight ranges of their Void Rays, Collosi, and Carriers. Only other thing is the layout of the first expansion - not much room to lay defenses behind the minerals and I had hunter banelings jump up and kill all my workers :) What about flipping the geysers and the mineral patch placements?
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
Double damage on bases was a nice denial for cleaning up the map, but on the end useless when you have nukes, or mass bc (the greatest problem with zerg bases were vipers that pulled my BCs, nothing else... For the protoss bases, they have so few units that you can clean them with ease with heroes and the main army, not even the nuke is needed)... Maybe placing that disruption field from the BC mission of WoL could work? Or put more swarm hosts/brood lord and khaydarin towers on the bases to deny early attacks (this option seems more effective imho)... They are vulnerable to nukes on the same way, but at least are not a kind of cheap trick like double damage and serves the same function of attack denial... And remember, i can cheese everything (I find fun on analyzing exploits/ weak points of maps, but i also love not cheese tactics btw, if i have to test something, i do it the hard way, not that i am a super expert on sc2 btw), you CANNOT STOP ME Mwahahahahaha
Right, at this point I probably have to officially put this campaign on hold. I didn't want to for a while, because I figured, "Oh, a couple weeks and it will be fixed" but now it's been 4 weeks, and the Mac editor is still broken from the Patch. 3.8 Nova update. I've already sent in a ticket to customer support last week and got an answer saying they'll work on it, and several others have posted this on the StarCraft II forums as well, so I really can't do anything other than wait - but honestly, it seems the Mac editor is so far down on their priority list so I really don't know how long I'll be waiting.
Anyway, for now, and for the past 4 weeks, this has unfortunately been put on hold.
StarCraft II: Annihilation Campaign - A 24 mission single-player campaign featuring unique heroes, custom tracks, boss battles, a varied set of mission scenarios and three intersecting storylines.
Starcraft II: A War Story Campaign - A multi-act campaign with custom factions. Follow my discord for updates: https://discord.gg/Ztu44gZ
If you want to see a list of other awesome campaigns, go to: Custom Campaign Initiative
I really hope this gets fixed soon... I miss my Annihilation fix.
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.