Sorry if this has already been asked. I searched the forum and could only find this thread which was related to my question but not quite what I was looking for.
I was talking to some friends today about modding and the game industry and was blatantly told that modding does not help someone get into the game industry and getting a degree in a games development course is better.
Neither of these friends have made modded games in the past to my knowledge, at least not enough to fully understand it.
Maybe I am delusional, but I always thought a decent portfolio (which may or may not include mods) would be the better way to enter the industry (art, programming, design, etc).
For clarification, the modding I am talking about in this scenario is more like polished projects with custom made assets (but not excluding those without them). For example, The Spider Queen / Return of the Dragons Campaign from Warcraft 3 (iirc it was made by the old owner of wc3sear.ch).
Also, I don't mean to restrict modding to to Blizzard games either. For example, Counter Strike (which I have not played, but I am aware of).
Anyway, this thread ultimately boils down to the title of the thread:
Modding/ Portfolio vs Education? What will be most beneficial on your resume to get into the games industry?
Edit: Also note that the games development scene where I live (Australia) isn't very big.
I say yes. Being a gamer may also score you points. I have a friend who went down that line and one of the reasons to which he was hired is that he is a gamer. Thus from a design perspective, he is able to criticise more during the developmental stages of the game. Plus, think of Ryanwin as well. The fella who got noticed because of world of starcraft? He got an offer from riotgames because of that if I recall correctly.
Education IMO is merely there to set a standard. Diplomas/Degrees are merely certifications on what knowledge you have acquired. Its very possible to have someone that educates themself through pure technical experience, rather than one who studies all the theory during education, but has limited practice when it comes down to the technical work.
In the end I would say both elements, portfolio and education are equally important, with portfolio having more weightage as it counts as experience. Many employers seem to prefer taking in people with experience rather that someone that just knows everything in theory but without practice.
Source:
I myself am trying to get into the web-app development scene but I've seen many job req's asking for X years experience with Y program. I believe it to be similar with trying to get into game development.
Basically what Fuzzy said. Really the only thing a degree will do is get you started higher up and better pay than if you were in the same position without one. At least that's what I've seen happen to people in other jobs where they worked up the ladder and get paid lower than people who have a degree at the same level. Also depending on where you want to go specifically in the gaming industry mods might not help. Fallout 3 and Oblivion mods from what I heard aren't that hard if you know how to use GECK or the oblivion tool(name escaped me right now). So the only reason to make mods for that is to show off 3d modeling skills or other art skills which would get you in as an artist or modeller but not as a programmer.
Programming would probably be best with actual proof of concept games in your portfolio compared to mods since majority of the engine is set up. But there are special cases like Ryanwin where it will look so damn different then the original engine that it can help you.
I agree that both a portfolio and education are both pretty important, but I always looked at a portfolio being superior to education. Your future employer would want to see what kind of work you produce as well. Having just a piece of paper would leave too much to their imagination!
I guess I like to think that self motivation counts a bit more than having education to push you to learn something and create things. For example, if someone learned how to use a modelling program by themselves and produced a portfolio of equal quality to someone with a degree in that field.
The programming side of things makes a lot of sense. Using tools like that isn't going to land you a job, but at least the Blizzard editors involve some kind of scripting. In fact, part of the reason I got into programming was the WC3 editor.
I actually mentioned to the friends of mine that Riot were employing modders from this scene and they hadn't heard of Riot before. I explained who they were but they didn't seem to believe me that it would ever happen. I did a bit of searching when I got home and found that a fair few modders have been hired by Valve as well, even ones who have been banned for some of their creations.
For the record, I am not really interested in getting into the games industry myself, but I know at least one of these friends would like to.
I'd say you're correct that actual demonstrable work is far more valuable than any education. A piece of paper that says you took some classes just doesn't carry the same weight. Not that it doesn't help, but it's far from the most important thing you can be doing.
"Game Development" degrees haven't even been around for all that long, and from what I've heard most of them offer little over what you could learn in a normal school or on your own time. I mean, where do your friends think developers hired people from before "game dev" courses existed?
The one big benefit of those courses/degrees (over, say, a BA in Underwater Basketweaving) is that you have a higher chance of making connections with like-minded people. That could pay off later, but there are probably less expensive ways to make those connections.
Here's a tip. If you're really looking into becoming a game designer like me, one of the biggest tips is not experience or education, but a person connected with the company you want to get into. For example, you make a nice map and it gets to page...say...1-5 and one of the game developers in Blizzard sees this and it gets well known, then you go into wanting to join Blizzard and it just so happens you met the guy and he talked to you, so you ask him a favor of helping you get in. From then on I have no idea, since I haven't gotten that far yet. XD And for education vs portfolio, education, you can't acquire through gaming companies usually until you learn it in school. A portfolio is also nice because it shows them that you've actually done something similar on your own time. Education I think is a little more important, but if you can, make a portfolio with all your work in it. Both aren't necessities, but they help a lot.
First, let's just be clear about one thing: No matter what path you follow, you need to get a degree in something. You'd have to have some prodigy-level modding skills if you were to get a job in the industry without any degree.
With that aside, if you go the path of modding I think you need some good mods to have a portfolio that stands out. There are so many people modding these games, but a lot of the work is just awful. If you can't stand out from those people then you've got nothing.
I think the path of getting a degree might be more useful for actually landing a job at an established company or studio. I think some schools have programs that help their game dev graduates find work, and that could make a huge difference. On the other hand, real modding experience will probably help you get a job at an indy studio or even start your own up.
Either way, if I was an employer and I had some kid who had a game dev degree but wasn't able to show any drive or self motivation to make games, I wouldn't hire them. A degree will help you with your skills, modding will help you with your talent. There are huge game studios that have room for talentless yet skilled game developers to help build a game. But consider that a game dev position will generally earn much less money, and also consider the overwhelming multitude of cheap and horrible games. I would absolutely not take a position at a game dev studio unless my job went beyond my skillset and allowed me to tap into my talent, and vis-a-vis, do some modding.
Finding a job through connections is rather ideal I would say. Realistically speaking, unless the connection is with a HR or the hiring manager, chances are you'd still have to go through an interview to get the job. If I were in the shoes of a manager, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't hire someone off the bat just because one of my colleagues recommended him. I'd want to interview the fellow to see if he's qualified first or not. Plus, all this would be subjected to whether or not the department is willing to allocate the extra budget to hire the said person. TBH, even if it were a friend/relative, and the person is not qualified, I wouldn't give any mercy either. Because at the end of the day, I'd want a team that can get the job done.
I would absolutely not take a position at a game dev studio unless my job went beyond my skillset and allowed me to tap into my talent, and vis-a-vis, do some modding.
True at that. What's a job if you don't get to learn new things and raise your personal bar right?
That doesn't mean that you should not get a degree though. You should absolutely get at least a bachelor's degree in something. At the least, it's a fallback while you work on getting into the industry.
Pro tips:
1. If you want to be a designer, get a degree in something that expands your horizons (core sciences, anthropology, psychology, etc.) and mod on the side. It will give you a far better set of knowledge to work off of than having a degree in a still developing program of study.
2. Go to conventions and try to meet developers.
3. If you can't afford to go to conventions, join LinkedIn and contribute to the various game developers groups.
Bottom line: get yourself noticed. Stand out (in a good way).
All a degree is good for is showing you went to class. It says nothing about whether or not you actually know what you're doing; there are plenty of people graduating that are still very poor programmers. It would be much more useful to have a decent portfolio, which even with a degree you would need to have.
Education will mean nothing if you can't create good work.
An impressive portfolio and knowledge of the software is what developers look for, with the degrees being more of a side-note. This is the impression I got from hearing from various game development studios.
They will give you an edge if you're competing against people of similar skill who don't have a degree, however. Also they will allow you to get paid more, which is always good. Education is beneficial, but is not essential or even significant when they're looking at your application...what you are capable of creating is what matters.
Personally I am pursuing a degree since it will help me get paid more as well as help me learn the software along the way. Afterwards I'll simply be expanding upon my portfolio, making indie games with friends and such.
Having a good personality and social skills helps too. Never be cocky.
The easiest way to think about Modding vs Education is to translate it into your typical tournament format.
Developers with Education would be the "seeded" players that start higher up in the bracket and have an easier time entering the tournament.
Developers with Modding experience would be the unseeded players that work their way through open tournaments to end up in the brackets. They must work harder, but they often receive a lot of support if they make it to the brackets.
Thus if you do well in the tournament as an Educated Dev it's expected of you, but if you do well in the tournament as a Modding Dev it's a surprise and you turn heads more easily.
At the end of the day it really boils down to experience. If you have 6 years of experience doing amateur modding in school, it is easily trumped by 2 years of experience doing professional standard 3rd party modding.
Wow, look at that, just make 1-2 really good mods or maps that are close to perfect or are heavily polished. Then get maybe 1-2 games without the editor. Then if you want something a little extra, get a degree. That's the ticket. ;)
You could do what I did and start an indie studio... your entire life will feel like when you're in elementary school and you're mom is going "Did you finish your homework yet?"
Why would it be like that? You said you started an indie studio which means you would be a founder or cofounder which would mean your time spent is up to you and not some big corporation breathing down your neck.
Why would it be like that? You said you started an indie studio which means you would be a founder or cofounder which would mean your time spent is up to you and not some big corporation breathing down your neck.
----
Because there is a lot to do and when I don't work on it (like today) I get really stressed, or days I do work on it I don't have a lot of time for much else. We have three game projects going, and three of us on them (me programming, a concept artist, someone who is technically an architect), only one of which is remotely near release (the others are in pre-production, we do work on them sometimes when we get bored with the current game; mostly we're trying to decide how we want to do it), but still needs mass amount of art done. At one point we had a couple of 3D artists, but they have stopped talking to me for whatever reason (I really have no idea, one day they just stopped responding), who did like half the work and now we can't use any of it. Throw onto that the fact that we have no where near the money supply we'd have if we had publisher support, meaning we can't do what it is we want because we can't afford servers or anything right now, and all of us working full time jobs on the side of it that don't cover what we need it to. Typically I run on about four to six hours of sleep, which is fine because I have DSPS, but then there are times where I'm right in the middle of my day job and am borderline passing out for the day.
It's not like you're going to make enough to live on right off the bat; we're guessing that next year we MIGHT be in alpha if we get enough done, then it'll probably be another six months of art work. And I also know that pretty much all of the money, if not more, that comes from this game will be accounted for as soon as it comes in. Likewise, the money from that game will likely all be going to getting and maintaining the server system I need for the game engine thing I'm working on, and the list goes on and on. And we might be getting sued for one of the games... which altogether isn't that big of a deal because we haven't done anything wrong, but still, the US legal system can be an absolute joke.
Maybe you should focus on one game and if that is successful develop the other games. If there are only 3 people in your company (you and your buddies) it's going to take ages if your ping ponging inbetween multiple projects. You need to focus. Perfect a project and when it comes time to set up your servers get a business loan to start up. I don't know what type of game your creating but good luck.
We are well aware of what we're doing; there is a purpose for working on multiple projects (and if you would like to know part of why that is, go spend ten hours a day working on the same thing for weeks on end, and then stop for a bit and see if you care anymore. The other part is timing their releases for when we need them to be and they're heavily interconnected).
Sorry if this has already been asked. I searched the forum and could only find this thread which was related to my question but not quite what I was looking for.
I was talking to some friends today about modding and the game industry and was blatantly told that modding does not help someone get into the game industry and getting a degree in a games development course is better.
Neither of these friends have made modded games in the past to my knowledge, at least not enough to fully understand it.
Maybe I am delusional, but I always thought a decent portfolio (which may or may not include mods) would be the better way to enter the industry (art, programming, design, etc).
For clarification, the modding I am talking about in this scenario is more like polished projects with custom made assets (but not excluding those without them). For example, The Spider Queen / Return of the Dragons Campaign from Warcraft 3 (iirc it was made by the old owner of wc3sear.ch).
Also, I don't mean to restrict modding to to Blizzard games either. For example, Counter Strike (which I have not played, but I am aware of).
Anyway, this thread ultimately boils down to the title of the thread:
Modding/ Portfolio vs Education? What will be most beneficial on your resume to get into the games industry?
Edit: Also note that the games development scene where I live (Australia) isn't very big.
@VoidPotato: Go
I say yes. Being a gamer may also score you points. I have a friend who went down that line and one of the reasons to which he was hired is that he is a gamer. Thus from a design perspective, he is able to criticise more during the developmental stages of the game. Plus, think of Ryanwin as well. The fella who got noticed because of world of starcraft? He got an offer from riotgames because of that if I recall correctly.
Education IMO is merely there to set a standard. Diplomas/Degrees are merely certifications on what knowledge you have acquired. Its very possible to have someone that educates themself through pure technical experience, rather than one who studies all the theory during education, but has limited practice when it comes down to the technical work.
In the end I would say both elements, portfolio and education are equally important, with portfolio having more weightage as it counts as experience. Many employers seem to prefer taking in people with experience rather that someone that just knows everything in theory but without practice.
Source: I myself am trying to get into the web-app development scene but I've seen many job req's asking for X years experience with Y program. I believe it to be similar with trying to get into game development.
Basically what Fuzzy said. Really the only thing a degree will do is get you started higher up and better pay than if you were in the same position without one. At least that's what I've seen happen to people in other jobs where they worked up the ladder and get paid lower than people who have a degree at the same level. Also depending on where you want to go specifically in the gaming industry mods might not help. Fallout 3 and Oblivion mods from what I heard aren't that hard if you know how to use GECK or the oblivion tool(name escaped me right now). So the only reason to make mods for that is to show off 3d modeling skills or other art skills which would get you in as an artist or modeller but not as a programmer.
Programming would probably be best with actual proof of concept games in your portfolio compared to mods since majority of the engine is set up. But there are special cases like Ryanwin where it will look so damn different then the original engine that it can help you.
I agree that both a portfolio and education are both pretty important, but I always looked at a portfolio being superior to education. Your future employer would want to see what kind of work you produce as well. Having just a piece of paper would leave too much to their imagination!
I guess I like to think that self motivation counts a bit more than having education to push you to learn something and create things. For example, if someone learned how to use a modelling program by themselves and produced a portfolio of equal quality to someone with a degree in that field.
The programming side of things makes a lot of sense. Using tools like that isn't going to land you a job, but at least the Blizzard editors involve some kind of scripting. In fact, part of the reason I got into programming was the WC3 editor.
I actually mentioned to the friends of mine that Riot were employing modders from this scene and they hadn't heard of Riot before. I explained who they were but they didn't seem to believe me that it would ever happen. I did a bit of searching when I got home and found that a fair few modders have been hired by Valve as well, even ones who have been banned for some of their creations.
For the record, I am not really interested in getting into the games industry myself, but I know at least one of these friends would like to.
@VoidPotato: Go
I'd say you're correct that actual demonstrable work is far more valuable than any education. A piece of paper that says you took some classes just doesn't carry the same weight. Not that it doesn't help, but it's far from the most important thing you can be doing.
"Game Development" degrees haven't even been around for all that long, and from what I've heard most of them offer little over what you could learn in a normal school or on your own time. I mean, where do your friends think developers hired people from before "game dev" courses existed?
The one big benefit of those courses/degrees (over, say, a BA in Underwater Basketweaving) is that you have a higher chance of making connections with like-minded people. That could pay off later, but there are probably less expensive ways to make those connections.
Here's a tip. If you're really looking into becoming a game designer like me, one of the biggest tips is not experience or education, but a person connected with the company you want to get into. For example, you make a nice map and it gets to page...say...1-5 and one of the game developers in Blizzard sees this and it gets well known, then you go into wanting to join Blizzard and it just so happens you met the guy and he talked to you, so you ask him a favor of helping you get in. From then on I have no idea, since I haven't gotten that far yet. XD And for education vs portfolio, education, you can't acquire through gaming companies usually until you learn it in school. A portfolio is also nice because it shows them that you've actually done something similar on your own time. Education I think is a little more important, but if you can, make a portfolio with all your work in it. Both aren't necessities, but they help a lot.
@VoidPotato: Go
First, let's just be clear about one thing: No matter what path you follow, you need to get a degree in something. You'd have to have some prodigy-level modding skills if you were to get a job in the industry without any degree.
With that aside, if you go the path of modding I think you need some good mods to have a portfolio that stands out. There are so many people modding these games, but a lot of the work is just awful. If you can't stand out from those people then you've got nothing.
I think the path of getting a degree might be more useful for actually landing a job at an established company or studio. I think some schools have programs that help their game dev graduates find work, and that could make a huge difference. On the other hand, real modding experience will probably help you get a job at an indy studio or even start your own up.
Either way, if I was an employer and I had some kid who had a game dev degree but wasn't able to show any drive or self motivation to make games, I wouldn't hire them. A degree will help you with your skills, modding will help you with your talent. There are huge game studios that have room for talentless yet skilled game developers to help build a game. But consider that a game dev position will generally earn much less money, and also consider the overwhelming multitude of cheap and horrible games. I would absolutely not take a position at a game dev studio unless my job went beyond my skillset and allowed me to tap into my talent, and vis-a-vis, do some modding.
@yukaboy: Go
Finding a job through connections is rather ideal I would say. Realistically speaking, unless the connection is with a HR or the hiring manager, chances are you'd still have to go through an interview to get the job. If I were in the shoes of a manager, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't hire someone off the bat just because one of my colleagues recommended him. I'd want to interview the fellow to see if he's qualified first or not. Plus, all this would be subjected to whether or not the department is willing to allocate the extra budget to hire the said person. TBH, even if it were a friend/relative, and the person is not qualified, I wouldn't give any mercy either. Because at the end of the day, I'd want a team that can get the job done.
@SkrowFunk: Go
I would absolutely not take a position at a game dev studio unless my job went beyond my skillset and allowed me to tap into my talent, and vis-a-vis, do some modding.
True at that. What's a job if you don't get to learn new things and raise your personal bar right?
Modding < Education < Excellent Polished Modding
That doesn't mean that you should not get a degree though. You should absolutely get at least a bachelor's degree in something. At the least, it's a fallback while you work on getting into the industry.
Pro tips:
1. If you want to be a designer, get a degree in something that expands your horizons (core sciences, anthropology, psychology, etc.) and mod on the side. It will give you a far better set of knowledge to work off of than having a degree in a still developing program of study.
2. Go to conventions and try to meet developers.
3. If you can't afford to go to conventions, join LinkedIn and contribute to the various game developers groups.
Bottom line: get yourself noticed. Stand out (in a good way).
All a degree is good for is showing you went to class. It says nothing about whether or not you actually know what you're doing; there are plenty of people graduating that are still very poor programmers. It would be much more useful to have a decent portfolio, which even with a degree you would need to have.
Education will mean nothing if you can't create good work. An impressive portfolio and knowledge of the software is what developers look for, with the degrees being more of a side-note. This is the impression I got from hearing from various game development studios.
They will give you an edge if you're competing against people of similar skill who don't have a degree, however. Also they will allow you to get paid more, which is always good. Education is beneficial, but is not essential or even significant when they're looking at your application...what you are capable of creating is what matters. Personally I am pursuing a degree since it will help me get paid more as well as help me learn the software along the way. Afterwards I'll simply be expanding upon my portfolio, making indie games with friends and such.
Having a good personality and social skills helps too. Never be cocky.
The easiest way to think about Modding vs Education is to translate it into your typical tournament format.
Developers with Education would be the "seeded" players that start higher up in the bracket and have an easier time entering the tournament.
Developers with Modding experience would be the unseeded players that work their way through open tournaments to end up in the brackets. They must work harder, but they often receive a lot of support if they make it to the brackets.
Thus if you do well in the tournament as an Educated Dev it's expected of you, but if you do well in the tournament as a Modding Dev it's a surprise and you turn heads more easily.
At the end of the day it really boils down to experience. If you have 6 years of experience doing amateur modding in school, it is easily trumped by 2 years of experience doing professional standard 3rd party modding.
I'm pretty sure this is the opinion of a lot of the developers.
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/716233/professor-mike-capps-from-epic-games-tells-you-how-to-break-into-the-game-industry-g4u/
Wow, look at that, just make 1-2 really good mods or maps that are close to perfect or are heavily polished. Then get maybe 1-2 games without the editor. Then if you want something a little extra, get a degree. That's the ticket. ;)
You could do what I did and start an indie studio... your entire life will feel like when you're in elementary school and you're mom is going "Did you finish your homework yet?"
@Varine: Go
Why would it be like that? You said you started an indie studio which means you would be a founder or cofounder which would mean your time spent is up to you and not some big corporation breathing down your neck.
Quote from Keyeszx:
@Varine: Go
Why would it be like that? You said you started an indie studio which means you would be a founder or cofounder which would mean your time spent is up to you and not some big corporation breathing down your neck.
----
Because there is a lot to do and when I don't work on it (like today) I get really stressed, or days I do work on it I don't have a lot of time for much else. We have three game projects going, and three of us on them (me programming, a concept artist, someone who is technically an architect), only one of which is remotely near release (the others are in pre-production, we do work on them sometimes when we get bored with the current game; mostly we're trying to decide how we want to do it), but still needs mass amount of art done. At one point we had a couple of 3D artists, but they have stopped talking to me for whatever reason (I really have no idea, one day they just stopped responding), who did like half the work and now we can't use any of it. Throw onto that the fact that we have no where near the money supply we'd have if we had publisher support, meaning we can't do what it is we want because we can't afford servers or anything right now, and all of us working full time jobs on the side of it that don't cover what we need it to. Typically I run on about four to six hours of sleep, which is fine because I have DSPS, but then there are times where I'm right in the middle of my day job and am borderline passing out for the day.
It's not like you're going to make enough to live on right off the bat; we're guessing that next year we MIGHT be in alpha if we get enough done, then it'll probably be another six months of art work. And I also know that pretty much all of the money, if not more, that comes from this game will be accounted for as soon as it comes in. Likewise, the money from that game will likely all be going to getting and maintaining the server system I need for the game engine thing I'm working on, and the list goes on and on. And we might be getting sued for one of the games... which altogether isn't that big of a deal because we haven't done anything wrong, but still, the US legal system can be an absolute joke.
@Varine: Go
Maybe you should focus on one game and if that is successful develop the other games. If there are only 3 people in your company (you and your buddies) it's going to take ages if your ping ponging inbetween multiple projects. You need to focus. Perfect a project and when it comes time to set up your servers get a business loan to start up. I don't know what type of game your creating but good luck.
We are well aware of what we're doing; there is a purpose for working on multiple projects (and if you would like to know part of why that is, go spend ten hours a day working on the same thing for weeks on end, and then stop for a bit and see if you care anymore. The other part is timing their releases for when we need them to be and they're heavily interconnected).
Get both. Simple as that. Education to learn the ropes and basics behind design, portfolio to show you actually can do the stuff you talk about ;)