No, I fully agree with you here. I haven't played enough BW to say anything meaningful about it, but from what I've seen part of the reason it was so succesful was because of a better balance of micro vs macro. That balance, I think, is one of the core issues StarCraft 2 suffers from.
I'm sure you've seen that picture before of the yin-yang symbol with the white side being labelled 'macro' and the black 'micro' (edit: this one). While this 50/50 ratio would be ideal, you're completely right in that in SC2 it is more of a 80/20 or perhaps even 90/10 ratio rather than 50/50. Training workers, building expansions and building unit-producing buildings is the vast majority of the game and simply perfecting this - relatively boring playstyle - can get you up to the highest level of play. It is only there that real micro starts mattering and even then it only really does so in a few cases; there really isn't a lot beyond baneling micro/marine splits and blink stalker micro.
The issue with this is not only that it makes the game less accessible (which is something that goes directly against what Blizzard has been trying to achieve, as established earlier in the thread), but also less interesting for spectators to watch. When someone watches pro SC-2 player, he wants to see the cool engagements and sick control of units, not one player winning because he A-moves in the largest army.
The challenge is in fixing this balance. It was a lot better in both Brood War and WarCraft 3 and the question is if StarCraft 2 can ever be brought back to that level. While doing so might not make the game harder, it will definitely make it more fun for all involved.
No, I fully agree with you here. I haven't played enough BW to say anything meaningful about it, but from what I've seen part of the reason it was so succesful was because of a better balance of micro vs macro. That balance, I think, is one of the core issues StarCraft 2 suffers from.
I'm sure you've seen that picture before of the yin-yang symbol with the white side being labelled 'macro' and the black 'micro' (edit: this one). While this 50/50 ratio would be ideal, you're completely right in that in SC2 it is more of a 80/20 or perhaps even 90/10 ratio rather than 50/50. Training workers, building expansions and building unit-producing buildings is the vast majority of the game and simply perfecting this - relatively boring playstyle - can get you up to the highest level of play. It is only there that real micro starts mattering and even then it only really does so in a few cases; there really isn't a lot beyond baneling micro/marine splits and blink stalker micro.
I think their is more than 10-20% micro in SCII. I mean if you are an ultra good zerg you can actually play with tons of smaller groups of units. Infestors, swarmhosts, zeglings, your main army. Same goes for Terran, doing drops simultaneous while attacking with your main. For protoss there is not that much micro I must agree in the late game.
But like you said. I havent played BW to say something useful about the difference between the two.
The wrong thing about sc2 is that some units help you too much on making Megaball vs Megaball... Colossi,Void Rays,Marauder Mass, 4M, MMGV deathballs, are all stuffs that doesn't require much skill...
SC1 didn't have deathballs. The pathing was different and the units didn't naturally clump. That's why micro was more important. The pros pointed this out during the beta.
The sheer amount of flaws could fit into a book. And I don't understand why people think HoTS was worse. At least in HoTS Mengsk actually did things to hamstring us, unlike WoL where Raynor steamrolls everybody in the sector from his single battlecruiser. Everyone just rolls over and dies in the wake of Metzen's favorite character.
I think their is more than 10-20% micro in SCII. I mean if you are an ultra good zerg you can actually play with tons of smaller groups of units. Infestors, swarmhosts, zeglings, your main army. Same goes for Terran, doing drops simultaneous while attacking with your main. For protoss there is not that much micro I must agree in the late game.
But like you said. I havent played BW to say something useful about the difference between the two.
These are fringe cases depending on how one defines micro and macro, I guess. Doing a drop while attacking with your main army certainly requires multitasking, but it's arguable as to whether you can call it micro. For micro I'm thinking more about the clear cut cases where units battle others units and one player wins purely due to better unit control (such as marine splits vs banelings). Check out a match of WarCraft 3 pro play for the clearest example: in that game the food limit was less than half of what it is in SC2 and as such individual units were way more important in battle; it wasn't uncommon to see a battle lasting for a full minute with individual low-health units being pulled back and re-engaging in the same fight.
I would agree Starcraft 2 is too strategic, and consequently people have issues with it. Historically, superior strategy trumped superior tactics, but that is highly unentertaining to watch, since you KNOW who will win long before the final battle. Also it favors theory crafting and meta gaming, which doesn't impress people as much since you can plan it all out ahead of time, less thinking on your feet required.
I would say this is exemplified most in Mobas where people are entertained/enjoy the constant combat, and in Dota 2, when the Rat Dota meta rolled around, people DESPISED it. For those who have not played dota 2 much, rat dota is a strategic choice to focus solely on crushing the enemy base, especially through divide and conquer (some of your team fights their entire team while 1 or 2 of your team focuses the enemy base down), and avoiding team combat as much as possible.
I would argue that people are basically looking for a team based, time delayed FPS style game, and mobas deliver that. Combat takes time since the environment makes everyone weak and limited at start, so you must build up, but you can almost never build to total invincibility without the enemy making colossal or repeated mistakes. Starcraft 2 has no such tactical/fps element since the build up is the deciding factor, not the use of it. Doesn't matter how well you micro your hydra army, that Skyterran fleet of Viking/Raven/BC's still going to crush you.
To reduce this, Blizzard will have to basically either A) Raise the tactical capabilities of units across the board or B) Kneecap every race strategic power. The former... I have no idea how they would go about that. The latter is quite possible, but would be a major change (Things like gutting the resource harvest of every race, either slow down, or reduce number of resources of each base, make every unit more expensive, increase build times, etc.).
From my point of view, pure strategic games are not liked because they favor intellectual capability, the smarter you are, the more likely you are to win. Tactical games reward instinct, reaction times, etc. Which tend to be more popular since frankly, not everyone is born with large intellectual capability, but we all are born with muscle memory capability and pattern recognition (Flight or Flight responses, etc.). I would probably say a perfect blend of Macro/Micro would be more towards 40/60.
From my point of view, pure strategic games are not liked because they favor intellectual capability, the smarter you are, the more likely you are to win. Tactical games reward instinct, reaction times, etc. Which tend to be more popular since frankly, not everyone is born with large intellectual capability, but we all are born with muscle memory capability and pattern recognition (Flight or Flight responses, etc.). I would probably say a perfect blend of Macro/Micro would be more towards 40/60.
Just to reply to this and specify a bit; I wouldn't say 'strategy is intellect, tactics is reflexes'. Perhaps in real-life this is (to an extent) the case, but the issue particularly with StarCraft 2 is that there's very little intellect required for its strategy. The possible build options are so obvious that all pros know what strategically counters what - that isn't as much what's at stake here. The issue is that the game's most interesting feat is in fact tactics (both for spectators but also in raw gameplay), but it is the least important of the two.
It's extremely hard to properly blend the two, though I would say a couple of games have done a decent job - WarCraft 3 was one of them.
Another issue with SC2, in my opinion, is that Strategy is mostly about memorizing. Following a build and pulling it off at the exact specific time(s) seems to get desired results, from what I've seen/played. It always felt like there was a wider range of options to work with in WC3, for example, and a build would still work efficiently even if you followed it loosely than step-by-step. That made watching matches more exciting (for me, at least), since you didn't -definitely- know if a player would go for X or Y.
@Gradius12: Go That was aninteresting read, wonder how I didn't even notice/think of most of the things mentioned there while playing WoL. Guess gameplay was good enough for my brain to ignore (most of) them. Any similar review for HotS?
Oh man... Come on! A merciless Aliens' story based on a story love is better of a cow boy story?? You kidding ? What Mengsk contrasted us? With a silly electro/psyonic lame wave ?? HotS ending is pure teenager love story, they want to attract 12 years old people, so welcome retarded story love and fuck you adult storyline of BW... Is sad but is so... Like AvPs stories and predator/alien stories ...
@Gradius12: Go That was aninteresting read, wonder how I didn't even notice/think of most of the things mentioned there while playing WoL. Guess gameplay was good enough for my brain to ignore (most of) them. Any similar review for HotS?
Oh man... Come on! A merciless Aliens' story based on a story love is better of a cow boy story?? You kidding ?
WoL was the love story. Raynor spends all game looking at Sarah's picture instead of finding ways to kill her. He shoots his best friend in the face to get the love of his life back. At what point exactly do you think the love story was injected into StarCraft? <_<
What Mengsk contrasted us? With a silly electro/psyonic lame wave ??
1) Blackmailed us with Raynor (even though he failed to resocialize him or actually blow up the ship when Kerrigan entered).
2) Psi Destroyer. Yeah, terrible plot device, like the Ion Cannon, but still.
3) Had a secret hybrid lab. The hybrids might have destroyed us had Stukov not warned us.
4) Orbital defenses and massive military production (which didn't seem to exist when Raynor invaded Korhal in WoL, but still).
5) Nearly wiped out the zerg using Warfield on Char.
6) Nearly killed us when we were vulnerable at the beginning of the game.
7) Would have killed Kerrigan using the artifact at the end, if Raynor didn't come in to save her. When you have contingencies upon contingencies like this, he almost starts to look like a decent villain.
What does Mengsk do in Wings of Liberty? When you invade his homeplanet he can do nothing but sputter empty threats as he flails around like a deranged crane while you embarrass him in front of the entire galaxy. He's a cartoon villain. All he had to do was deny the recording's validity. Christ, we've been able to reproduce peoples' voices since the 80s.
In HoTS he nearly stopped the entire zerg swarm (even though he's still one of the biggest morons in video games and should never have been a threat to begin with). In WoL he was embarrassed and defeated by a cowboy who only has one capital ship. Tell me, what sounds more impressive?
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HotS ending is pure teenager love story, they want to attract 12 years old people, so welcome retarded story love and fuck you adult storyline of BW... Is sad but is so... Like AvPs stories and predator/alien stories ...
Again, what did you think the ending of WoL was, with Raynor carrying a naked Kerrigan into the sunset to find happiness forever? That to me was an even bigger fail than ME3's ending. An insult to everyone who might have enjoyed SC or BW. Or has a double digit IQ.
Also, I'm pretty sure that HoTS's ending put a nail in the coffin as far as the love story is concerned. Kerrigan says that she had to forsake Raynor to go fight Amon. Not to mention that the very idea of them actually being "in love" borders precariously on either xenophilia or bestiality, but that's just me. -_-
1) Blackmailing with Raynor would be as typical cliché as doubtlessly pointless if Mengsk wouldn't carry out his threat, and he didn't even had to blow up the WHOLE Moros ship for that. There are multiple options he could've used to kill Raynor, from a single bullet to poison gas, which would make Kerrigan feel his death even more, but he had to be alive for the sake of the plot. And, even if he were to be alive, he could still be deeply injured, not just physically, but mentally as well, breaking him through psionics. Here, he's safe and sound, even with everything he's done against Mengsk.
2) The Psi Destroyer was the least of terrible plot device problems, compared to the rest of stuff on HotS. It was effective in itself, just the typical 'didn't account for that', which were the (argh) Primal Zerg. Still, there was so much more Mengsk could do, like Psi Disruptors based on what the UED did on BW, psionic shockwaves that'd burn like the artifact in WoL or even turn all Zerg on the planet against her.
3) The secret hybrid lab was just a device to introduce hybrids when she could be surprised and fighting them in Korhal all along! Besides, it's a wonder Mengsk, being willing to sacrifice thousands of millions, didn't even had a single lab in the undergrounds of Augustgrad. It was also a plot device to get rid of Narud, since he wasn't useful to the plot, anymore.
4) Gradius, you're forgetting what Metzen described in a BlizzCon interview, that what happened on Korhal was just a RAID, and that the Dominion was caught off guard! First, the Raiders *sneaked* the Odin with Tychus inside to Korhal through every favor they had, and probably did the same to most of their personnel while the defenses were off. Dominion security no doubt doesn't have the same airport security paranoia the US has today. While indeed it's absurd that Raynor's Raiders could just enter Korhal unchecked, just like that, remember that there are too many factors to consider. Dominion officials may have been bribed, the Raiders might've been masked as a Dominion engineering division... It's just difficult to explain, that's it.
5) You're kidding, right? Even with Warfield working overtime, he couldn't EVER manage to purge Char completely, because of the millions of eggs spread across the planet, and those in Za'gara's lair were just a mere minuscule fraction. I like to think the purge thing was just a punishment for Warfield disobeying Mengsk and following Valerian and Raynor. Besides, they didn't EVEN get Warfield's character right, he could've just tried and reason with Kerrigan, as she could've with him, instead of just charging at him like the Queen Bitch we came to love in BW.
6) Yeah, Mengsk did sure try, but this could've been done in a much better way. First, surround the whole facility with whatever remainder of the Dominion fleet there still was. Nova could've intercepted both, making it an interesting mini-boss game instead of a lame Super Viking. The Dominion forces could be flooding the facility instead of smaller waves through hilarious drop pod crashes. The only thing that was worth of that was Raynor and Kerrigan getting cut off. Like in Korhal, that's just difficult to elaborate, but not impossible.
7) That was a typical plot device, using the old 'cocky villain' cliché when he could've just ran off. He'd only stay unless he was absolutely sure or powerful enough to face Kerrigan. Just like it was with Narud. That was one of the major flaws of HotS, when villains whom could've just ran off didn't. They knew the time to fight and the time to run back in WoL. Here, they just sound like a typical super thug.
This is no attempt at propaganda, but I'd suggest that you'd read what I've been doing in my midst time while I took my breaks on map-making, and how things could and should have been done in some critical parts. There are a part or two that are simple cliché, but even these clichés are a hundred times better than what Metzen came up with.
DeltaCadimus - I have been arguing exactly what you mention above for ages now, I just don't think the level of failure compares to Wings of Liberty. Yes, Mengsk is an idiot through and through. Nobody ever denied that. My only point is that in HoTS he actually appears to be doing something, whereas in WoL he just sits on his hands like the incompetent dictator that he is. The plot structure of HoTS is only slightly superior. The entire trilogy is still based on logical fallacies and cliches though. This didn't exactly change in HoTS.
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4) Gradius, you're forgetting what Metzen described in a BlizzCon interview, that what happened on Korhal was just a RAID, and that the Dominion was caught off guard! First, the Raiders *sneaked* the Odin with Tychus inside to Korhal through every favor they had, and probably did the same to most of their personnel while the defenses were off. Dominion security no doubt doesn't have the same airport security paranoia the US has today. While indeed it's absurd that Raynor's Raiders could just enter Korhal unchecked, just like that, remember that there are too many factors to consider. Dominion officials may have been bribed, the Raiders might've been masked as a Dominion engineering division... It's just difficult to explain, that's it.
Metzen and the Blizzard writers frequently give asspull answers that contradict what actually happened in the game that was shipped. There are several signposts in the game that indicate that it was a full-blown military confrontation, not a raid.
1) Raynor snuck Thors and a Command Center onto the ground. This is not gameplay-story segregation; all were mentioned in dialog and cutscenes. One does not launch a "raid" with giant Thors. And how exactly does one sneak them into Augustgrad unnoticed?
2) We see battlecruisers flying over Augustgrad in the mission intro cinematic. We then go on to fight the battlecruisers in-game.
3) Warfield is stationed there with a military contingent.
I've always hated the "it's just a raid" cop-out. Basically, Raynor can steamroll whoever he wants despite being disproportionately weaker, because "it's just a raid". It's not a raid, everything points to the fact that it's a full-blown military engagement.
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While indeed it's absurd that Raynor's Raiders could just enter Korhal unchecked
Entering is the easy part. What's a miracle is that they were allowed to leave Korhal. All traffic to & from Korhal should have been cut off the moment the attack began, and any attempt at leaving should have shot down their craft via the orbital defenses that didn't exist back then.
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The secret hybrid lab was just a device to introduce hybrids when she could be surprised and fighting them in Korhal all along!
Every single narrative development could potentially be called a "device", especially in an RTS, where you need things to fight.
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You're kidding, right? Even with Warfield working overtime, he couldn't EVER manage to purge Char completely
Right. It was hyperbole. The point is that this time Warfield was given a shred of an illusion of competence, with Zagara telling us exactly how he defeated her. Of course, he reverts to being an incompetent General yet again when the player-character faces off against him, but still.
Compare this to Wings of Liberty, where he brags about his achievements and proceeds to singlehandedly screw up the invasion of Char by making the rookie mistake of doing a frontal assault. He spends the rest of the game deferring to Raynor's genius and military prowess, because years of experience as a General pale in comparison to Raynor's "resourcefulness". -_-
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Yeah, Mengsk did sure try, but this could've been done in a much better way.
Everything about SC2's story could have been done in a better way. :P
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This is no attempt at propaganda, but I'd suggest that you'd read what I've been doing in my midst time while I took my breaks on map-making, and how things could and should have been done in some critical parts. There are a part or two that are simple cliché, but even these clichés are a hundred times better than what Metzen came up with.
DeltaCadimus - I have been arguing exactly what you mention above for ages now, I just don't think the level of failure compares to Wings of Liberty. Yes, Mengsk is an idiot through and through. Nobody ever denied that. My only point is that in HoTS he actually appears to be doing something, whereas in WoL he just sits on his hands like the incompetent dictator that he is. The plot structure of HoTS is only slightly superior. The entire trilogy is still based on logical fallacies and cliches though. This didn't exactly change in HoTS.
I rest my case on this one. It's far true that Mengsk did absolutely nothing in WoL. But, in HotS, he could've done far much and better to compensate. Just saying.
Guys retarded-friendly campaigns need retarded enemies and stories (the difficulty on WoL was a bit superior to the one of BW, but hots was even easier of sc vanilla). I mean it's possible do this: "i am writing WoL story... But i write a concept also for the one of hots and LotV..." So they have immediately a complete story to be EDITED for gAmeplay questions...
A great story on sc2 is present on custom campaigns like "proditor campaign" "subjection (i enjoyed the fenix fan immortal also if it was a bit unoriginal)" "crimson moon" "amber Sun (for now)" and i don't remember others... Ah yeah "prime resurgence terran campaign (also if it's on alpha)"
I read your piece on WoL, and it was interesting. I guess it boils down to the obvious; the characters mostly sucked. I'll agree with you there, though I think you missed out on some bits. There are a lot of things you mention that actually make sense or work relatively well in the light of the whole microscopic lens applied by being a poor chopped-out Raynor on a single ship that has to set up a revolution against a huge fascist empire. At one point at the start you even complained about the disparity of goals, which I in fact thing was a good thing for the story: it set the player up feeling as if there was a lot to be done to even get this revolution started.
Also, your comparison of Valerian owning Moebius to Bin Laden seems a bit off - I'll give you that it's a bit of a cheap reveal, but it would be more like... George Bush junior's son funding an international arms dealer for combat data who ends up receiving most of his arms from Bin Laden. It isn't as humongously far-fetched as you portray it when you keep in mind that it makes sense for the Dominion to hire third parties to discover news about anything that can help against the Zerg.
On another note, call me stupid but I originally picked Nova's side in the campaign. Yes, Tosh hasn't betrayed me yet, but he's mentioned to be a shady figure by multiple people and so far all of what I've done has been primarily to his benefit - and he doesn't want to tell me anything about his goals (other than a "I want to kill Mengsk" with so little backstory it's very believable as a lie). Nova, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have much reason to lie to me and initially came across as a relatively competent Dominion lieutenant who was more concerned with keeping a possibly dangerous and (indeed quite) creepy ex-prisoner voodoo assassin without any backup. I figured out I took the wrong option quite quickly (I'll admit I also made the choice in part because I preferred Ghosts over Spectres), but I don't think the choice is as obvious as you leave it. Then again, maybe I was expecting better characters and could easily see him screwing me over.
If you want to do me a favour, re-try the campaign's first 10 levels or so and all the time make sure to hold a mindset that you are completely alone in the depths of space with a humongous task in front of you that requires multiple stepping stones of progress before you can even begin solving it. Pay more attention to the environments you're in and the feeling of the situation than the specific characters. I think WoL captured that feeling very well and that was exactly what I liked about it.
For some reason I feel like a kid/low IQ person that actually enjoyed the storyline so far. It might be because I only read the summaries of the storyline up to BW (haven't played BW and befor, or read any novels). I liked the love story between Kerrigan and Raynor. I felt happy for him that our sad protagonist got something to be happy about. It also showed some true colors of our dear Raynor "Ho's before Bro's". Because of this love story I think them teaming up against mengks was pretty cool aswell, despite all the things you could sum up against it.
Though I still hope for some hardcore fantasy novel ending like we are used from, for example Marcus Heitz or Raymond Feist. Great characters always die in those kind of fantasy stories.
Though I still hope for some hardcore fantasy novel ending like we are used from, for example Marcus Heitz or Raymond Feist. Great characters always die in those kind of fantasy stories.
@Mozared: Go I chose to stay with Tosh. Even though he kept his secrets, he always gave interesting information in the Cantina. He tipped that Hanson was trouble, that someone in the Hyperion was working for Mengsk, that Tychus was keeping his secrets as well. And Hanson said Nova's claim that Spectres were crazy psychopaths wasn't true, so why should I side with a Dominion Ghost? Because my current ally keeps his secrets? Because he won't give me cookies? Raynor works with mercs, pirates, and all kinds of people and he knows he can't trust them 100%, so I think Tosh is not an exception.
To me the main difference between SC/BW and SC2 is that one looked like a line of decisions and consequences, not always for the best, while the later looks too much like a movie script where things step aside for the main character. I guess that's the problem of focusing on one character.
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@Eimtr: Go
No, I fully agree with you here. I haven't played enough BW to say anything meaningful about it, but from what I've seen part of the reason it was so succesful was because of a better balance of micro vs macro. That balance, I think, is one of the core issues StarCraft 2 suffers from.
I'm sure you've seen that picture before of the yin-yang symbol with the white side being labelled 'macro' and the black 'micro' (edit: this one). While this 50/50 ratio would be ideal, you're completely right in that in SC2 it is more of a 80/20 or perhaps even 90/10 ratio rather than 50/50. Training workers, building expansions and building unit-producing buildings is the vast majority of the game and simply perfecting this - relatively boring playstyle - can get you up to the highest level of play. It is only there that real micro starts mattering and even then it only really does so in a few cases; there really isn't a lot beyond baneling micro/marine splits and blink stalker micro.
The issue with this is not only that it makes the game less accessible (which is something that goes directly against what Blizzard has been trying to achieve, as established earlier in the thread), but also less interesting for spectators to watch. When someone watches pro SC-2 player, he wants to see the cool engagements and sick control of units, not one player winning because he A-moves in the largest army.
The challenge is in fixing this balance. It was a lot better in both Brood War and WarCraft 3 and the question is if StarCraft 2 can ever be brought back to that level. While doing so might not make the game harder, it will definitely make it more fun for all involved.
I think their is more than 10-20% micro in SCII. I mean if you are an ultra good zerg you can actually play with tons of smaller groups of units. Infestors, swarmhosts, zeglings, your main army. Same goes for Terran, doing drops simultaneous while attacking with your main. For protoss there is not that much micro I must agree in the late game.
But like you said. I havent played BW to say something useful about the difference between the two.
The wrong thing about sc2 is that some units help you too much on making Megaball vs Megaball... Colossi,Void Rays,Marauder Mass, 4M, MMGV deathballs, are all stuffs that doesn't require much skill...
SC1 didn't have deathballs. The pathing was different and the units didn't naturally clump. That's why micro was more important. The pros pointed this out during the beta.
The WoL story was one of the worst-conceived stories in video games: http://sclegacy.com/editorials/7-reviews/1134-scl-reviews-wings-of-liberty
The sheer amount of flaws could fit into a book. And I don't understand why people think HoTS was worse. At least in HoTS Mengsk actually did things to hamstring us, unlike WoL where Raynor steamrolls everybody in the sector from his single battlecruiser. Everyone just rolls over and dies in the wake of Metzen's favorite character.
These are fringe cases depending on how one defines micro and macro, I guess. Doing a drop while attacking with your main army certainly requires multitasking, but it's arguable as to whether you can call it micro. For micro I'm thinking more about the clear cut cases where units battle others units and one player wins purely due to better unit control (such as marine splits vs banelings). Check out a match of WarCraft 3 pro play for the clearest example: in that game the food limit was less than half of what it is in SC2 and as such individual units were way more important in battle; it wasn't uncommon to see a battle lasting for a full minute with individual low-health units being pulled back and re-engaging in the same fight.
I would agree Starcraft 2 is too strategic, and consequently people have issues with it. Historically, superior strategy trumped superior tactics, but that is highly unentertaining to watch, since you KNOW who will win long before the final battle. Also it favors theory crafting and meta gaming, which doesn't impress people as much since you can plan it all out ahead of time, less thinking on your feet required.
I would say this is exemplified most in Mobas where people are entertained/enjoy the constant combat, and in Dota 2, when the Rat Dota meta rolled around, people DESPISED it. For those who have not played dota 2 much, rat dota is a strategic choice to focus solely on crushing the enemy base, especially through divide and conquer (some of your team fights their entire team while 1 or 2 of your team focuses the enemy base down), and avoiding team combat as much as possible.
I would argue that people are basically looking for a team based, time delayed FPS style game, and mobas deliver that. Combat takes time since the environment makes everyone weak and limited at start, so you must build up, but you can almost never build to total invincibility without the enemy making colossal or repeated mistakes. Starcraft 2 has no such tactical/fps element since the build up is the deciding factor, not the use of it. Doesn't matter how well you micro your hydra army, that Skyterran fleet of Viking/Raven/BC's still going to crush you.
To reduce this, Blizzard will have to basically either A) Raise the tactical capabilities of units across the board or B) Kneecap every race strategic power. The former... I have no idea how they would go about that. The latter is quite possible, but would be a major change (Things like gutting the resource harvest of every race, either slow down, or reduce number of resources of each base, make every unit more expensive, increase build times, etc.).
From my point of view, pure strategic games are not liked because they favor intellectual capability, the smarter you are, the more likely you are to win. Tactical games reward instinct, reaction times, etc. Which tend to be more popular since frankly, not everyone is born with large intellectual capability, but we all are born with muscle memory capability and pattern recognition (Flight or Flight responses, etc.). I would probably say a perfect blend of Macro/Micro would be more towards 40/60.
Just to reply to this and specify a bit; I wouldn't say 'strategy is intellect, tactics is reflexes'. Perhaps in real-life this is (to an extent) the case, but the issue particularly with StarCraft 2 is that there's very little intellect required for its strategy. The possible build options are so obvious that all pros know what strategically counters what - that isn't as much what's at stake here. The issue is that the game's most interesting feat is in fact tactics (both for spectators but also in raw gameplay), but it is the least important of the two.
It's extremely hard to properly blend the two, though I would say a couple of games have done a decent job - WarCraft 3 was one of them.
Another issue with SC2, in my opinion, is that Strategy is mostly about memorizing. Following a build and pulling it off at the exact specific time(s) seems to get desired results, from what I've seen/played. It always felt like there was a wider range of options to work with in WC3, for example, and a build would still work efficiently even if you followed it loosely than step-by-step. That made watching matches more exciting (for me, at least), since you didn't -definitely- know if a player would go for X or Y.
@Gradius12: Go That was aninteresting read, wonder how I didn't even notice/think of most of the things mentioned there while playing WoL. Guess gameplay was good enough for my brain to ignore (most of) them. Any similar review for HotS?
@Gradius12: Go
Oh man... Come on! A merciless Aliens' story based on a story love is better of a cow boy story?? You kidding ? What Mengsk contrasted us? With a silly electro/psyonic lame wave ?? HotS ending is pure teenager love story, they want to attract 12 years old people, so welcome retarded story love and fuck you adult storyline of BW... Is sad but is so... Like AvPs stories and predator/alien stories ...
@DEFILERRULEZ: Go
Also, let's not forget that he tried blackmailing Kerrigan using Raynor, like if she'd just listen to the villain and not try a rescue. Lame.
For a resumed experience, my opinions on the works:
WarCraft III - Typical, but forgiveable.
WoL - Man, they got mediocre, what the...
Diablo 3 - OMG, Blizzard, what have you done!? Your own jewel!?
HotS - I swear, the next person whom bad talks WoL, I swear, I'LL KILL!!!
About the short and long of it.
Here's mine: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?15543-Gradius-s-HoTS-Story-Review
And I like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=404043
But yeah, that's my attitude to. The gameplay was so good, it made up for the terrible storytelling.
WoL was the love story. Raynor spends all game looking at Sarah's picture instead of finding ways to kill her. He shoots his best friend in the face to get the love of his life back. At what point exactly do you think the love story was injected into StarCraft? <_<
1) Blackmailed us with Raynor (even though he failed to resocialize him or actually blow up the ship when Kerrigan entered).
2) Psi Destroyer. Yeah, terrible plot device, like the Ion Cannon, but still.
3) Had a secret hybrid lab. The hybrids might have destroyed us had Stukov not warned us.
4) Orbital defenses and massive military production (which didn't seem to exist when Raynor invaded Korhal in WoL, but still).
5) Nearly wiped out the zerg using Warfield on Char.
6) Nearly killed us when we were vulnerable at the beginning of the game.
7) Would have killed Kerrigan using the artifact at the end, if Raynor didn't come in to save her. When you have contingencies upon contingencies like this, he almost starts to look like a decent villain.
What does Mengsk do in Wings of Liberty? When you invade his homeplanet he can do nothing but sputter empty threats as he flails around like a deranged crane while you embarrass him in front of the entire galaxy. He's a cartoon villain. All he had to do was deny the recording's validity. Christ, we've been able to reproduce peoples' voices since the 80s.
In HoTS he nearly stopped the entire zerg swarm (even though he's still one of the biggest morons in video games and should never have been a threat to begin with). In WoL he was embarrassed and defeated by a cowboy who only has one capital ship. Tell me, what sounds more impressive?
Again, what did you think the ending of WoL was, with Raynor carrying a naked Kerrigan into the sunset to find happiness forever? That to me was an even bigger fail than ME3's ending. An insult to everyone who might have enjoyed SC or BW. Or has a double digit IQ.
Also, I'm pretty sure that HoTS's ending put a nail in the coffin as far as the love story is concerned. Kerrigan says that she had to forsake Raynor to go fight Amon. Not to mention that the very idea of them actually being "in love" borders precariously on either xenophilia or bestiality, but that's just me. -_-
I would still do her... even with her fangs, wings, claws and w/e. Call me a romantic... But I like love stories. ^^
@Gradius12: Go
Okay, Gradius, let's get to it.
1) Blackmailing with Raynor would be as typical cliché as doubtlessly pointless if Mengsk wouldn't carry out his threat, and he didn't even had to blow up the WHOLE Moros ship for that. There are multiple options he could've used to kill Raynor, from a single bullet to poison gas, which would make Kerrigan feel his death even more, but he had to be alive for the sake of the plot. And, even if he were to be alive, he could still be deeply injured, not just physically, but mentally as well, breaking him through psionics. Here, he's safe and sound, even with everything he's done against Mengsk.
2) The Psi Destroyer was the least of terrible plot device problems, compared to the rest of stuff on HotS. It was effective in itself, just the typical 'didn't account for that', which were the (argh) Primal Zerg. Still, there was so much more Mengsk could do, like Psi Disruptors based on what the UED did on BW, psionic shockwaves that'd burn like the artifact in WoL or even turn all Zerg on the planet against her.
3) The secret hybrid lab was just a device to introduce hybrids when she could be surprised and fighting them in Korhal all along! Besides, it's a wonder Mengsk, being willing to sacrifice thousands of millions, didn't even had a single lab in the undergrounds of Augustgrad. It was also a plot device to get rid of Narud, since he wasn't useful to the plot, anymore.
4) Gradius, you're forgetting what Metzen described in a BlizzCon interview, that what happened on Korhal was just a RAID, and that the Dominion was caught off guard! First, the Raiders *sneaked* the Odin with Tychus inside to Korhal through every favor they had, and probably did the same to most of their personnel while the defenses were off. Dominion security no doubt doesn't have the same airport security paranoia the US has today. While indeed it's absurd that Raynor's Raiders could just enter Korhal unchecked, just like that, remember that there are too many factors to consider. Dominion officials may have been bribed, the Raiders might've been masked as a Dominion engineering division... It's just difficult to explain, that's it.
5) You're kidding, right? Even with Warfield working overtime, he couldn't EVER manage to purge Char completely, because of the millions of eggs spread across the planet, and those in Za'gara's lair were just a mere minuscule fraction. I like to think the purge thing was just a punishment for Warfield disobeying Mengsk and following Valerian and Raynor. Besides, they didn't EVEN get Warfield's character right, he could've just tried and reason with Kerrigan, as she could've with him, instead of just charging at him like the Queen Bitch we came to love in BW.
6) Yeah, Mengsk did sure try, but this could've been done in a much better way. First, surround the whole facility with whatever remainder of the Dominion fleet there still was. Nova could've intercepted both, making it an interesting mini-boss game instead of a lame Super Viking. The Dominion forces could be flooding the facility instead of smaller waves through hilarious drop pod crashes. The only thing that was worth of that was Raynor and Kerrigan getting cut off. Like in Korhal, that's just difficult to elaborate, but not impossible.
7) That was a typical plot device, using the old 'cocky villain' cliché when he could've just ran off. He'd only stay unless he was absolutely sure or powerful enough to face Kerrigan. Just like it was with Narud. That was one of the major flaws of HotS, when villains whom could've just ran off didn't. They knew the time to fight and the time to run back in WoL. Here, they just sound like a typical super thug.
This is no attempt at propaganda, but I'd suggest that you'd read what I've been doing in my midst time while I took my breaks on map-making, and how things could and should have been done in some critical parts. There are a part or two that are simple cliché, but even these clichés are a hundred times better than what Metzen came up with.
https:www.fanfiction.net/s/9199859/1/Heart-of-the-Swarm-Alternate
P.S: The ripped off movie line was intentional. If you don't get it now, you will.
DeltaCadimus - I have been arguing exactly what you mention above for ages now, I just don't think the level of failure compares to Wings of Liberty. Yes, Mengsk is an idiot through and through. Nobody ever denied that. My only point is that in HoTS he actually appears to be doing something, whereas in WoL he just sits on his hands like the incompetent dictator that he is. The plot structure of HoTS is only slightly superior. The entire trilogy is still based on logical fallacies and cliches though. This didn't exactly change in HoTS.
Metzen and the Blizzard writers frequently give asspull answers that contradict what actually happened in the game that was shipped. There are several signposts in the game that indicate that it was a full-blown military confrontation, not a raid.
1) Raynor snuck Thors and a Command Center onto the ground. This is not gameplay-story segregation; all were mentioned in dialog and cutscenes. One does not launch a "raid" with giant Thors. And how exactly does one sneak them into Augustgrad unnoticed?
2) We see battlecruisers flying over Augustgrad in the mission intro cinematic. We then go on to fight the battlecruisers in-game.
3) Warfield is stationed there with a military contingent.
I've always hated the "it's just a raid" cop-out. Basically, Raynor can steamroll whoever he wants despite being disproportionately weaker, because "it's just a raid". It's not a raid, everything points to the fact that it's a full-blown military engagement.
Entering is the easy part. What's a miracle is that they were allowed to leave Korhal. All traffic to & from Korhal should have been cut off the moment the attack began, and any attempt at leaving should have shot down their craft via the orbital defenses that didn't exist back then.
Every single narrative development could potentially be called a "device", especially in an RTS, where you need things to fight.
Right. It was hyperbole. The point is that this time Warfield was given a shred of an illusion of competence, with Zagara telling us exactly how he defeated her. Of course, he reverts to being an incompetent General yet again when the player-character faces off against him, but still.
Compare this to Wings of Liberty, where he brags about his achievements and proceeds to singlehandedly screw up the invasion of Char by making the rookie mistake of doing a frontal assault. He spends the rest of the game deferring to Raynor's genius and military prowess, because years of experience as a General pale in comparison to Raynor's "resourcefulness". -_-
Everything about SC2's story could have been done in a better way. :P
I'll check it out. In the meantime, here is a rewrite of Wings of Liberty that attempts to maintain the same story, yet restructures it in a way that it doesn't suck so much: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?8818-The-Wings-of-Liberty-Project
I rest my case on this one. It's far true that Mengsk did absolutely nothing in WoL. But, in HotS, he could've done far much and better to compensate. Just saying.
Guys retarded-friendly campaigns need retarded enemies and stories (the difficulty on WoL was a bit superior to the one of BW, but hots was even easier of sc vanilla). I mean it's possible do this: "i am writing WoL story... But i write a concept also for the one of hots and LotV..." So they have immediately a complete story to be EDITED for gAmeplay questions...
@Gradius12: Go
I read your piece on WoL, and it was interesting. I guess it boils down to the obvious; the characters mostly sucked. I'll agree with you there, though I think you missed out on some bits. There are a lot of things you mention that actually make sense or work relatively well in the light of the whole microscopic lens applied by being a poor chopped-out Raynor on a single ship that has to set up a revolution against a huge fascist empire. At one point at the start you even complained about the disparity of goals, which I in fact thing was a good thing for the story: it set the player up feeling as if there was a lot to be done to even get this revolution started.
Also, your comparison of Valerian owning Moebius to Bin Laden seems a bit off - I'll give you that it's a bit of a cheap reveal, but it would be more like... George Bush junior's son funding an international arms dealer for combat data who ends up receiving most of his arms from Bin Laden. It isn't as humongously far-fetched as you portray it when you keep in mind that it makes sense for the Dominion to hire third parties to discover news about anything that can help against the Zerg.
On another note, call me stupid but I originally picked Nova's side in the campaign. Yes, Tosh hasn't betrayed me yet, but he's mentioned to be a shady figure by multiple people and so far all of what I've done has been primarily to his benefit - and he doesn't want to tell me anything about his goals (other than a "I want to kill Mengsk" with so little backstory it's very believable as a lie). Nova, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have much reason to lie to me and initially came across as a relatively competent Dominion lieutenant who was more concerned with keeping a possibly dangerous and (indeed quite) creepy ex-prisoner voodoo assassin without any backup. I figured out I took the wrong option quite quickly (I'll admit I also made the choice in part because I preferred Ghosts over Spectres), but I don't think the choice is as obvious as you leave it. Then again, maybe I was expecting better characters and could easily see him screwing me over.
If you want to do me a favour, re-try the campaign's first 10 levels or so and all the time make sure to hold a mindset that you are completely alone in the depths of space with a humongous task in front of you that requires multiple stepping stones of progress before you can even begin solving it. Pay more attention to the environments you're in and the feeling of the situation than the specific characters. I think WoL captured that feeling very well and that was exactly what I liked about it.
I'll read your HotS review tomorrow.
For some reason I feel like a kid/low IQ person that actually enjoyed the storyline so far. It might be because I only read the summaries of the storyline up to BW (haven't played BW and befor, or read any novels). I liked the love story between Kerrigan and Raynor. I felt happy for him that our sad protagonist got something to be happy about. It also showed some true colors of our dear Raynor "Ho's before Bro's". Because of this love story I think them teaming up against mengks was pretty cool aswell, despite all the things you could sum up against it.
Though I still hope for some hardcore fantasy novel ending like we are used from, for example Marcus Heitz or Raymond Feist. Great characters always die in those kind of fantasy stories.
@Crazio: Go
Funny, I always thought of this guy:
@Mozared: Go I chose to stay with Tosh. Even though he kept his secrets, he always gave interesting information in the Cantina. He tipped that Hanson was trouble, that someone in the Hyperion was working for Mengsk, that Tychus was keeping his secrets as well. And Hanson said Nova's claim that Spectres were crazy psychopaths wasn't true, so why should I side with a Dominion Ghost? Because my current ally keeps his secrets? Because he won't give me cookies? Raynor works with mercs, pirates, and all kinds of people and he knows he can't trust them 100%, so I think Tosh is not an exception.
To me the main difference between SC/BW and SC2 is that one looked like a line of decisions and consequences, not always for the best, while the later looks too much like a movie script where things step aside for the main character. I guess that's the problem of focusing on one character.