So, with all the new features coming in Swarm, what features should they focus on next, for either Swarm patches or for Void? What would you like to see?
Here are some of the more popular features I've heard of (and also approve of):
Clan Wars
Automated Tournaments
Map Marketplace
Art Tools for 3DS Max/Maya
Custom Campaign support (like with WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne)
Fansite/E-Sports Support (news from SCLegacy, TeamLiquid, and e-Sports teams and events)
Telestrating (Drawing on screen in matches)
Mass Observing/Live Casting/In-Game Match Streaming (Twitch.tv integration, C&C's Battlecast feature)
Art tools are already in beta testing, and Clan Wars are most likely the first feature to be worked on after the release of Swarm, but what would you guys like to see next?
I think there was a similar thread a couple of months ago.
The only thing I personally want asap is offline latency for Singleplayer maps. I think the campaign already has that (does anyone know if that statement is true? It should be, right?) and there is literally no reason for Blizzard to deny it for Arcade 1 Player maps.
Yes, + 1 for offline latency on single player maps. The responsiveness would most likely mess up players feel of controls for other maps, but It's a reasonable price for amazing single player content that can utilize tight controls for it's benefits.
Map marketplace is garbage, We are not an apple product.... This is a hobby not a business... if you wish to make money go to the UDK or Unity... as they are more suited for it.
Dont try to change what others enjoy just so some greedy kid can make a quick buck.
I still don't get your issue with the map marketplace. Tbf, I don't think I ever will. 'Cause making money out of a hobby is bad, right? Someone could actually get rewarded for work he considers fun to do - such an abberation!
I still don't get your issue with the map marketplace. Tbf, I don't think I ever will. 'Cause making money out of a hobby is bad, right? Someone could actually get rewarded for work he considers fun to do - such an abberation!
Okay I have explained this a dozen times but why not...
When you weigh the pros and cons of it its just not going to work. there's no way, a few simple reasons.
1. Starcraft Community is too Small and Too Large, We cannot benefit by becoming a marketplace. People will Buy a multiplayer games, and then when there isnt enough people to play them with they will be mad. Hell I would, I pay for a damn game, and then theres no one to play it with because the marketplace will be over-saturated by the top games instantly OR there will be TOO Many maps and not enough People. Remember when searching on a marketplace you search, for example, "Youtube App" or "FlashLight" or "PhotoEditing" No one says... Oh lets go to Tower Defense and then scroll 100 pages to find one... and you know anytime Quality control is brought up it just means it has to have a loading screen and be an actual game...
OKay here are some pros and cons.
1. you COULD make money.
2. The Mapping community would grow.
Here are the Cons.
1. Any Money you made would be less than or Equal to if there was just a donate button.
2. The Community would be filled with greedy POS who wont help anyone you can say it isnt true, But I have been through this shit twice theres a reason I dont try creating games for XBLA or UDK Its not that I haven't tried its that they have greedy communities...
3. A majority of Mapping Veterans will quit, I know I will the second it happens, and I know of at least 6 others who have told me the second it happens they are no longer supporting blizzard games.
4. Map Quality Would only Lower, and creativity would cease to exist, People would push out shit maps that meet the minimum requirements. Its easy its quick, Whoever advertises their shit map the best wins, you get 1 win map and then you just advertise the rest of your shit maps there you go.
5. There will be no long lasting Map support, Remember Great maps arent made because you can make money, projects like dota, Bunker wars, legion td, dbz tribute, Civ wars, gem td, were all made simply because the creator had a good idea, but NONE of these maps were good when they started actually for the most part they were all garbarge, but improved and became the best over time. in any kind of business situation once you have someones money the vast majority of creators quit supporting their product and move onto their newest thing. Windows, apply, warcraft 2, its just business.
6. Legality - Do we REALLY wanna deal with this. and you know blizz isnt going to take any of the liability for it.
7. Everytime blizzard has tried to monetize anything its been screwed up, badly... DO I have to mention D3 or the fact that People are STILL paying 15$ for a badly outdated game...
There are many more but its 7:30 am im tired, I slept for 4 hours but woke up at around 3 so I am sleepy again. Hope this opens your eyes a bit.
2. The Community would be filled with greedy POS who wont help anyone you can say it isnt true, But I have been through this shit twice theres a reason I dont try creating games for XBLA or UDK Its not that I haven't tried its that they have greedy communities...
If you ask me this is far-fetched as hell, but alright, I'll give that you have a point here - it is indeed possible that the sharing of editor knowledge will lessen when maps enter a market system.
3. A majority of Mapping Veterans will quit, I know I will the second it happens, and I know of at least 6 others who have told me the second it happens they are no longer supporting blizzard games.
4. Map Quality Would only Lower, and creativity would cease to exist, People would push out shit maps that meet the minimum requirements. Its easy its quick, Whoever advertises their shit map the best wins, you get 1 win map and then you just advertise the rest of your shit maps there you go.
Because we have a market system in the real world and literally EVERY company out there is shit, right?
5. There will be no long lasting Map support, Remember Great maps arent made because you can make money, projects like dota, Bunker wars, legion td, dbz tribute, Civ wars, gem td, were all made simply because the creator had a good idea, but NONE of these maps were good when they started actually for the most part they were all garbarge, but improved and became the best over time. in any kind of business situation once you have someones money the vast majority of creators quit supporting their product and move onto their newest thing. Windows, apply, warcraft 2, its just business.
6. Legality - Do we REALLY wanna deal with this. and you know blizz isnt going to take any of the liability for it.
Doesn't need to be complicated. Insert some clear rules about who owns what, done. Worst case scenario a couple of specific mappers will have to bother with these issues against Blizzard. Really not a con.
7. Everytime blizzard has tried to monetize anything its been screwed up, badly... DO I have to mention D3 or the fact that People are STILL paying 15$ for a badly outdated game...
'Diablo 3' isn't an argument or con either. Or 'do I have to mention WoW'?
There are many more but its 7:30 am im tired, I slept for 4 hours but woke up at around 3 so I am sleepy again. Hope this opens your eyes a bit.
My eyes are open. All I see is a secondary system in place next to the one we already have, thus opening up MORE options that can simply not be used by anyone who wishes to keep mapping for free. What I'm seeing is basically us getting free stuff and you complaining about it.
It's worse than that, in fact. Some of te most succesful companies in the world have been companies consisting of people who found a way to make money out of their hobby or passion. Microsoft, Blizzard, Google, Subway, Ikea, etc. If there is one hope for mankind to ensure people live fulfilling lives it's encouraging this system rather than forcing people to work in boring 9 to 5 jobs that they don't like. It's one of the reasons I'm glad entrepreneurship has been on the rise in the western world as of late. You are literally opposing this idea which pretty much stokes with my entire life's philosophy because you do not want people to make money off their hobby.
I'm not sure why you have such a doomsday vision of the system. You're acting as if Blizzard is going to put custom maps into an 1800s assembly line. That's not the idea of the system, and the community is indeed way too small for that. They're just trying to allow people like everyone here to receive some actual money for the hard work they put in. Heck, look at E-sports and streams; it's not like EVERY stream out there is some scrub trying to make money through a monetized gaming system? It's simply the pros who love gaming anyway making some money of their hobby.
I wouldn't mind people getting paid for their efforts, it's just I'd rather it was old style, meaning rare, strong projects get picked up and become official, rather than every single map becoming business - which is what will certainly happen.
Expect people to become a lot more fake as they feel the appeal of money is greater than that of just mingling with the community .
That's just it though. How many people do you know that would try to 'make a quick buck' of the STARCRAFT 2 CUSTOM MAPPING SCENE? I mean... those are the same people who would try to 'make a quick buck' out of Dungeons and Dragons tabletop dungeon master conventions or something. If you're a 'con artist' trying to make quick money, there are WAY better ways to go about it than something like this. Hence why I'm not that worried. It's just not worth it.
Additionally, for as much as Wisp complained about quality control, you can be sure that there is some. Either that or more map transparency (i.e. you can play 5 minutes in every map before having to buy it or such). They are definitely not going to allow people to ask money for Hatchery Wars if there is no way to check for players what is in the actual map.
That's just it though. How many people do you know that would try to 'make a quick buck' of the STARCRAFT 2 CUSTOM MAPPING SCENE? I mean... those are the same people who would try to 'make a quick buck' out of Dungeons and Dragons tabletop dungeon master conventions or something. If you're a 'con artist' trying to make quick money, there are WAY better ways to go about it than something like this. Hence why I'm not that worried. It's just not worth it.
That's just it though, there are better ways but that isn't necessarily transparent to most people, hence why it could still happen. Overall I know my input doesn't really change whether the map marketplace will happen.
I have a hunch Blizz is actually just waiting to see more DOTA-quality projects before it moves its ass, I don't think it's very impressed yet, which is a bit funny since they control the modding tools.
That's just it though, there are better ways but that isn't necessarily transparent to most people, hence why it could still happen. Overall I know my input doesn't really change whether the map marketplace will happen.
I have a hunch Blizz is actually just waiting to see more DOTA-quality projects before it moves its ass, I don't think it's very impressed yet, which is a bit funny since they control the modding tools.
This makes sense I'd guess. The three most high profile projects I know of haven't been released yet. And right now we have Mafia, Nexus Wars and SOTIS. I just feel sorry for campaign makes. I love me the fuck out of some campaigns.
Greed is not the only factor when something like a map marketplace is being presented here. You're not getting money for free, you're still putting in the work to create content. Paying for optional content is not something that is new to the gaming scene at all, you have a variety of DLC options in most any other game, some of which are required by games to keep up to date (map packs for FPS for example). This system doesn't do anything to intrude on your current experience of SC2.
The Map Marketplace will change the landscape. It will cause some mappers to leave, undoubtedly. It could also draw in people who aren't from the SC2 community. Look at DOTA 2 and how many custom models are being created for it, how many items are in circulation for a game that's in beta. No one's being paid for it yet either, but the potential is what draws modders to the scene. The potential for higher quality maps and mods is what the ultimate goal is.
Cons to the marketplace will exist, but they shouldn't deter the greater potential that it would bring.
That being said, the NASL commentators talked about the idea of user-created Custom Avatars, and I would really like it Blizzard took up the idea and implemented it. More avatar options and customization options is what I'd want, moreso than buying maps. Even personal 'skins' for units in multiplay would be fine for me, given they have proper systems in place to allow you to see or turn off other people's skins.
Now that would be something that would be cool, But they just don't need to be map specific, and if a mapper wants to stop them on his map he should be able to.
No one's being paid for it yet either, but the potential is what draws modders to the scene. The potential for higher quality maps and mods is what the ultimate goal is.
Really? That's interesting, I play a lot of Dota and my assumption was that they get a small (0.01-5% whatever makes sense, I have no clue about stuff like that) percentage of money from the sales of their particular items. But then, if that was the case there would be probably be a lot more competition about high quality sets and items.
Is Valve planning on doing that in the future? How is the monetization model for the artists in TF2?
I personally think a working Map Marketplace has as lot of obstacles and you risk to destroy the whole custom map scene if you aren't careful with what you are doing, because people are very proud of their work and they spend a lot of time into their projects, so naturally if they see other people earning money with their maps they want it too, so they put a small price on their map. But that could lead to a large number of maps being unavailable for free, so you risk to lose the majority of your playerbase because the majority of good maps isn't available unless you pay money. And the problem is that right now the playerbase for custom maps is pretty small to begin with.
I think people should just realize that custom mapping is nothing you do to earn money right now. Sure it would be nice in an ideal world and maybe Starcraft 2 will provide that at some point in the future, but my personal opinion is that right now neither the mapping community nor the Starcraft 2 custom map players are ready for a Map Marketplace, unless it is executed very carefully with a handful of handselected high quality maps/assets that you can purchase.
Tf2 is F2P... :P, not to mention its on steam so I am sure it has WELL over 20x the users not to mention, that buying a universal item is completely different then buying a single scenario game-type(meaning a map in general). Thats like saying the Collectors Edition Thor is the same as Squad TD. :P the thor is used everywhere, whereas the map is just played in 1 place.
Edit: i'm not saying its completely irrelevant, I am just saying its a VERY poor example, and doesn't really relate much to the proposed Map-Marketplace.
Yes, I realize that while it is not exactly the same situation the point still stands that it was a similar idea to the map marketplace, and while people may not make as much money it still is quite a bit, especially for some of the more "popular" ones like SQTD and others.
its not similar... its a totally different buisness model :P, selling something superficial, and selling a multiplayer game-type are two entirely different things.
For example if you payed 5$ for the new CoD map pack thats only available through multiplayer and with people who have the same pack bought, BUT there are 100s of other map packs out there. so therefore the one you bought has a very low chance of ever being played. whereas a hat can be seen and used anywhere.
So, with all the new features coming in Swarm, what features should they focus on next, for either Swarm patches or for Void? What would you like to see?
Here are some of the more popular features I've heard of (and also approve of):
Art tools are already in beta testing, and Clan Wars are most likely the first feature to be worked on after the release of Swarm, but what would you guys like to see next?
I think there was a similar thread a couple of months ago.
The only thing I personally want asap is offline latency for Singleplayer maps. I think the campaign already has that (does anyone know if that statement is true? It should be, right?) and there is literally no reason for Blizzard to deny it for Arcade 1 Player maps.
Yes, + 1 for offline latency on single player maps. The responsiveness would most likely mess up players feel of controls for other maps, but It's a reasonable price for amazing single player content that can utilize tight controls for it's benefits.
Blizzard pls.
@AlexO6: Go
Map marketplace is garbage, We are not an apple product.... This is a hobby not a business... if you wish to make money go to the UDK or Unity... as they are more suited for it.
Dont try to change what others enjoy just so some greedy kid can make a quick buck.
@Taintedwisp: Go
I still don't get your issue with the map marketplace. Tbf, I don't think I ever will. 'Cause making money out of a hobby is bad, right? Someone could actually get rewarded for work he considers fun to do - such an abberation!
Okay I have explained this a dozen times but why not... When you weigh the pros and cons of it its just not going to work. there's no way, a few simple reasons.
1. Starcraft Community is too Small and Too Large, We cannot benefit by becoming a marketplace. People will Buy a multiplayer games, and then when there isnt enough people to play them with they will be mad. Hell I would, I pay for a damn game, and then theres no one to play it with because the marketplace will be over-saturated by the top games instantly OR there will be TOO Many maps and not enough People. Remember when searching on a marketplace you search, for example, "Youtube App" or "FlashLight" or "PhotoEditing" No one says... Oh lets go to Tower Defense and then scroll 100 pages to find one... and you know anytime Quality control is brought up it just means it has to have a loading screen and be an actual game...
OKay here are some pros and cons.
1. you COULD make money.
2. The Mapping community would grow.
Here are the Cons.
1. Any Money you made would be less than or Equal to if there was just a donate button.
2. The Community would be filled with greedy POS who wont help anyone you can say it isnt true, But I have been through this shit twice theres a reason I dont try creating games for XBLA or UDK Its not that I haven't tried its that they have greedy communities...
3. A majority of Mapping Veterans will quit, I know I will the second it happens, and I know of at least 6 others who have told me the second it happens they are no longer supporting blizzard games.
4. Map Quality Would only Lower, and creativity would cease to exist, People would push out shit maps that meet the minimum requirements. Its easy its quick, Whoever advertises their shit map the best wins, you get 1 win map and then you just advertise the rest of your shit maps there you go.
5. There will be no long lasting Map support, Remember Great maps arent made because you can make money, projects like dota, Bunker wars, legion td, dbz tribute, Civ wars, gem td, were all made simply because the creator had a good idea, but NONE of these maps were good when they started actually for the most part they were all garbarge, but improved and became the best over time. in any kind of business situation once you have someones money the vast majority of creators quit supporting their product and move onto their newest thing. Windows, apply, warcraft 2, its just business.
6. Legality - Do we REALLY wanna deal with this. and you know blizz isnt going to take any of the liability for it.
7. Everytime blizzard has tried to monetize anything its been screwed up, badly... DO I have to mention D3 or the fact that People are STILL paying 15$ for a badly outdated game...
There are many more but its 7:30 am im tired, I slept for 4 hours but woke up at around 3 so I am sleepy again. Hope this opens your eyes a bit.
That's not a con, just an observation.
If you ask me this is far-fetched as hell, but alright, I'll give that you have a point here - it is indeed possible that the sharing of editor knowledge will lessen when maps enter a market system.
You're the only one I've heard saying this.
Because we have a market system in the real world and literally EVERY company out there is shit, right?
... what?
Doesn't need to be complicated. Insert some clear rules about who owns what, done. Worst case scenario a couple of specific mappers will have to bother with these issues against Blizzard. Really not a con.
'Diablo 3' isn't an argument or con either. Or 'do I have to mention WoW'?
My eyes are open. All I see is a secondary system in place next to the one we already have, thus opening up MORE options that can simply not be used by anyone who wishes to keep mapping for free. What I'm seeing is basically us getting free stuff and you complaining about it.
It's worse than that, in fact. Some of te most succesful companies in the world have been companies consisting of people who found a way to make money out of their hobby or passion. Microsoft, Blizzard, Google, Subway, Ikea, etc. If there is one hope for mankind to ensure people live fulfilling lives it's encouraging this system rather than forcing people to work in boring 9 to 5 jobs that they don't like. It's one of the reasons I'm glad entrepreneurship has been on the rise in the western world as of late. You are literally opposing this idea which pretty much stokes with my entire life's philosophy because you do not want people to make money off their hobby.
I'm not sure why you have such a doomsday vision of the system. You're acting as if Blizzard is going to put custom maps into an 1800s assembly line. That's not the idea of the system, and the community is indeed way too small for that. They're just trying to allow people like everyone here to receive some actual money for the hard work they put in. Heck, look at E-sports and streams; it's not like EVERY stream out there is some scrub trying to make money through a monetized gaming system? It's simply the pros who love gaming anyway making some money of their hobby.
I wouldn't mind people getting paid for their efforts, it's just I'd rather it was old style, meaning rare, strong projects get picked up and become official, rather than every single map becoming business - which is what will certainly happen.
Expect people to become a lot more fake as they feel the appeal of money is greater than that of just mingling with the community .
@zorbotron: Go
That's just it though. How many people do you know that would try to 'make a quick buck' of the STARCRAFT 2 CUSTOM MAPPING SCENE? I mean... those are the same people who would try to 'make a quick buck' out of Dungeons and Dragons tabletop dungeon master conventions or something. If you're a 'con artist' trying to make quick money, there are WAY better ways to go about it than something like this. Hence why I'm not that worried. It's just not worth it.
Additionally, for as much as Wisp complained about quality control, you can be sure that there is some. Either that or more map transparency (i.e. you can play 5 minutes in every map before having to buy it or such). They are definitely not going to allow people to ask money for Hatchery Wars if there is no way to check for players what is in the actual map.
That's just it though, there are better ways but that isn't necessarily transparent to most people, hence why it could still happen. Overall I know my input doesn't really change whether the map marketplace will happen.
I have a hunch Blizz is actually just waiting to see more DOTA-quality projects before it moves its ass, I don't think it's very impressed yet, which is a bit funny since they control the modding tools.
This makes sense I'd guess. The three most high profile projects I know of haven't been released yet. And right now we have Mafia, Nexus Wars and SOTIS. I just feel sorry for campaign makes. I love me the fuck out of some campaigns.
Greed is not the only factor when something like a map marketplace is being presented here. You're not getting money for free, you're still putting in the work to create content. Paying for optional content is not something that is new to the gaming scene at all, you have a variety of DLC options in most any other game, some of which are required by games to keep up to date (map packs for FPS for example). This system doesn't do anything to intrude on your current experience of SC2.
The Map Marketplace will change the landscape. It will cause some mappers to leave, undoubtedly. It could also draw in people who aren't from the SC2 community. Look at DOTA 2 and how many custom models are being created for it, how many items are in circulation for a game that's in beta. No one's being paid for it yet either, but the potential is what draws modders to the scene. The potential for higher quality maps and mods is what the ultimate goal is.
Cons to the marketplace will exist, but they shouldn't deter the greater potential that it would bring.
That being said, the NASL commentators talked about the idea of user-created Custom Avatars, and I would really like it Blizzard took up the idea and implemented it. More avatar options and customization options is what I'd want, moreso than buying maps. Even personal 'skins' for units in multiplay would be fine for me, given they have proper systems in place to allow you to see or turn off other people's skins.
@Triceron: Go
Now that would be something that would be cool, But they just don't need to be map specific, and if a mapper wants to stop them on his map he should be able to.
Really? That's interesting, I play a lot of Dota and my assumption was that they get a small (0.01-5% whatever makes sense, I have no clue about stuff like that) percentage of money from the sales of their particular items. But then, if that was the case there would be probably be a lot more competition about high quality sets and items.
Is Valve planning on doing that in the future? How is the monetization model for the artists in TF2?
I personally think a working Map Marketplace has as lot of obstacles and you risk to destroy the whole custom map scene if you aren't careful with what you are doing, because people are very proud of their work and they spend a lot of time into their projects, so naturally if they see other people earning money with their maps they want it too, so they put a small price on their map. But that could lead to a large number of maps being unavailable for free, so you risk to lose the majority of your playerbase because the majority of good maps isn't available unless you pay money. And the problem is that right now the playerbase for custom maps is pretty small to begin with.
I think people should just realize that custom mapping is nothing you do to earn money right now. Sure it would be nice in an ideal world and maybe Starcraft 2 will provide that at some point in the future, but my personal opinion is that right now neither the mapping community nor the Starcraft 2 custom map players are ready for a Map Marketplace, unless it is executed very carefully with a handful of handselected high quality maps/assets that you can purchase.
Here this is pretty relevant to the conversation. http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/off-topic/48424-tf2-item-profits-revealed-not-so-off-topic/#p1
Still alive and kicking, just busy.
My guide to the trigger editor (still a work in progress)
@willuwontu: Go
Tf2 is F2P... :P, not to mention its on steam so I am sure it has WELL over 20x the users not to mention, that buying a universal item is completely different then buying a single scenario game-type(meaning a map in general). Thats like saying the Collectors Edition Thor is the same as Squad TD. :P the thor is used everywhere, whereas the map is just played in 1 place.
Edit: i'm not saying its completely irrelevant, I am just saying its a VERY poor example, and doesn't really relate much to the proposed Map-Marketplace.
@Taintedwisp: Go
Yes, I realize that while it is not exactly the same situation the point still stands that it was a similar idea to the map marketplace, and while people may not make as much money it still is quite a bit, especially for some of the more "popular" ones like SQTD and others.
Still alive and kicking, just busy.
My guide to the trigger editor (still a work in progress)
@willuwontu: Go
its not similar... its a totally different buisness model :P, selling something superficial, and selling a multiplayer game-type are two entirely different things.
For example if you payed 5$ for the new CoD map pack thats only available through multiplayer and with people who have the same pack bought, BUT there are 100s of other map packs out there. so therefore the one you bought has a very low chance of ever being played. whereas a hat can be seen and used anywhere.
@Taintedwisp: Go
True True, I was referring mostly to the custom avatar talk earlier, because it seems like that would be the most bought. Not maps themselves.
Still alive and kicking, just busy.
My guide to the trigger editor (still a work in progress)