I know I never played a DOTA game or mod but I'll play Blizzard DOTA... seriously. Of course waht I really want to do is to search all those models and other assets to see what I can use in my own maps, but I'll take some time to play it too. Maybe I wont suck at it as much as I suck at SC2 :-)
I never played a single DotA game (don't like games where the only objective is to kill the other guy), the only interest I have in Blizzard Dota is how it will improve the editor... but I'd like to know what exactly "last hitting" is. It's sound like just another name for kill stealing... that's consdered a measure of skill? :S
Oh cmon... Last hitting require timing, and there's tons of depth around it. Example:
- I see my minion health is almost empty, I can anticipate and predict my enemy is going to attack that minion. I know that and I can use that opportunity to harrass him, he will lose 10% from this harassment.
- I will then continue doing this until he's 50% injured. Then I can start calling for teammate and gank him. If I have a teammate in my lane, that could result in a kill even faster.
- In DOTA All-star, they have deny mechanic. You know you see your minion is almost dead. Attack that minion so you deny gold and experience to enemy. But as an enemy you can predict your opponent is going to move close and deny, so you use that opportunity to harrass, etc. etc.
- Last hitting minion could also result in pushing your lane too hard, making you prone to ganks. I could pretend I don't last hit for couple of seconds, so that enemy is prone to gank, then call my teammare for a kill.
- Talking about ganking. You think ganking is simply 2 or more heroes ganking a lane? There's more. In DotA, they have wards as consumables which you can place for scouting. You see enemy is coming to your lane to gank. What do you do? Run to your tower for protection? That's noob because then the ganker will notice you placed a ward and he goes back farming to his lane...That's noob. Good player will take a gamble, and pretend he hasn't warded, making the ganker to wait and wait for the right time, the longer he waits the more that ganker wasted experience
- Want more depth? There are hero types that are very scalable/good for late game. Let's give that hero the last hit/ks so that he got the money. That's another simple but hard to execute strategy as everyone wants to be the superstar due to greed and arrogance.
- I can write never ending strategies to explain the depth even just for last hitting. But I'll stop here...
Agree that DotA genre is nowhere near in terms of complexity vs StarCraft RTS game. Nowhere near. But StarCraft game is for DemiGod, not for human like me or millions other. So there goes DotA!
I am sure you're going the be cold-headed and still not calling that skill/strategy/depth. I can understand that, especially considering you never even give that DOTA game a try... Sorry if you cannot enjoy so many games. Life is too good to be to cynic and critical you know. Enjoy little things, at least try it before declaring it's not fun, not skillful =)
Plus... The fact that DotA genre is so popular, even as eSport, with prize pool reaching $ Millions, with viewers surpassing StarCraft 2 of 300k simultanous viewers in an instance during the Dreamhack tournament, speaks for itself in terms of skill, fun, watchability, etc etc.
One can only speculate but the safest guess is one time purchase attached to bnet account, just like mobile app store, updates, add ins all free since it's one time purchase.
What you can do though is doing the Street Fighter strat if you want to reap more $$:
Sometimes I read the forum and many people with great mapping skills are bashing TD. Mephs from Smashcraft for example. In fact, #1 Most Popular is Squadron TD which is Tower Defense game and by huge huge margin 32k hours vs #2 Special Forces 18k hours. Star Battle maxed out at 7.5k hours back then. Smashcraft on the other hand, stuck at 30 hours.
Tower Defense is not dead. Just have to be good one. Vexal TD managed to stay top for a long time too. Element TD stamped at 3k hours.
I am absolutely dumfounded by your position. This is the kind of ignorant statement that can only be made by someone who has clearly never spent time playing maps past page one or is only trying to troll. I make it a point to play maps at page 10+ just to try things out and I have found numerous games that were really fun, but would never get to page 1 b/c it's not already there and people won't join...why because it's not on page one and people won't join. The entire system keeps the known popular and the unknown not. It has nothing to do with quality.
How can you say that you can't find good maps past page one? So you're telling me that if I just created a map and it's awesome, it will be on page 1 no matter what? I'm sorry that's not the case by any means. People have to play a map to get it on page one, it doesn't just start popular b/c it's good.
I'll give you one game that is wonderful and isn't on page one. It's called Flagship Battle. It's a great game, but hasn't got much play time. It's rising on the Up and Coming list and the popularity list b/c it is good. But it's not on page one. Why is that?
I would really love to understand why you think such a thing before I have to fly to Europe and slap some sense into you. I already want to go to meet this hot chick in Cork. It wouldn't be much of a detour and would be worth it.
Your statement is actually not true. If you really follow the custom map scene, Blizzard had stagnated the counter for the popular maps like Marine Arena, Star Battle, SotiS, etc etc. aka. sabotage the popular maps. During that day you see mid page maps like Debates, Smashcraft, Aiur Chef, StarJeweled to occupy page 2, Vexal TD, Left 2 Die to occupy top spots. However after Blizzard release the coup de tat on the counter of popular maps, after a certain period of time, they got back to top page.
That Blizzard experiment above concludes that no matter how you try to mix it, most players still look for SotiS, Marine Arena, Star Battle even if it's burried in page 56 or 89 or whatever. And those maps that have been given a chance to occupy top pages are still not performing well (in terms of popularity).
Having said that, I disagree that non popular maps = suck. Smashcraft is awesome! But it lacks element that makes it popular. Debates is genius, but not everyone loves to think. Well, let's say Canon in D is a great great song, but it will NEVER EVER beat Justin Bieber in terms of popularity... Heck take Rebecca's Black Friday song. It's so popular because it has the elements that make it popular.
I still think that fixing Fun or Not is the step that Blizzard has to make. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
Reposting again. Simple Fix imo is Fun or Not being not retarded. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
Simple Fix imo is Fun or Not being not retarded. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
Simple Fix imo is Fun or Not being not retarded.
Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
I think this is the simplest fix we could wish for...
...wahtever you say
but i'd rather reduce chances of getting sued, so maybe in an update
it's true that you should think through it to reduce chance getting sued. But all I am saying is stop thinking too much about getting sued that you stop making that project.
@DrSuperEvil: Go Also, most of those have American publishers now, so we can't because they might have an employee whos kid plays it and tells his parents who tell the head of the company who tell Blizzard who bans it
Stop thinking about lawsuit bs. Just do it first. If they starts to sue it means you have achieved success. And you should get flattered for being sued. It's as simple as that.
Oh here's more detailed advice. Learn from that guy giving online math course video. What's his name? Khan i think.
That's his video web:
http://www.khanacademy.org/#algebra
You want an advice? Learn pre-algebra yourself at home or from friends. Its super easy not worth learning at college. Trust me. Then challenge for placement test so they'll let you jump directly to Calculus.
That's what I did back then. you can save money for that credit, finish college quicker by skipping those pre-algebra and algebra. That's 2 coursework you can save. use the time to make amazing map!
All I am saying wingednosering, is that when I first go play Formation Defense, I have no clue... So it's not like StarBattle in which when I first play I get the grasp of it.
StarBattle will get more complex as you are talking about build type, etc. etc. strength and weakness of each build etc etc.
I am talking about the first 2-3 minutes... Honestly I have been in your situation. I have released a TD back in Nov 2010. Reached bottom page 2 I think. And those who played it simply loved it. No negative feedback. I got tons tons of praise saying the best TD they have ever played. I got bunch of emails too. Got pinged left and right at Bnet. Heck, I even got a great great fan poem for the lore of my TD... I still have the screenshots of some of the players Match History. Those fans... uhhhh... They play nothing but my TD during that 2 weeks.... But does it matter???
It doesn't matter... My TD has non-standard game mechanic. Fully custom tower units. Competitive and complex strategy... It needs more than 2-3 minutes to get the grasp of the game mechanic. But the fact is whenever people play 60-70% quit within the first 5 mins because they got confused.... Typical chat log would be: "what just happened?" "I have no idea just following the flow lol" ... Only those who were willing to spend time to understand the game will get addicted.
I have been trying to simplify the game since and I still haven't been able to do that up until today. So 2-3 months ago I kinda gave up... And since then I've gone back to the scratch book trying to make the game understandable in the first 2-3 minutes..
Think Civilization... Wonderful, great great game... But will never sell as well as StarCraft 2.
0
Oh exactly. SC2 is for DemiGod. Not for us.
0
Oh cmon... Last hitting require timing, and there's tons of depth around it. Example:
- I see my minion health is almost empty, I can anticipate and predict my enemy is going to attack that minion. I know that and I can use that opportunity to harrass him, he will lose 10% from this harassment.
- I will then continue doing this until he's 50% injured. Then I can start calling for teammate and gank him. If I have a teammate in my lane, that could result in a kill even faster.
- In DOTA All-star, they have deny mechanic. You know you see your minion is almost dead. Attack that minion so you deny gold and experience to enemy. But as an enemy you can predict your opponent is going to move close and deny, so you use that opportunity to harrass, etc. etc.
- Last hitting minion could also result in pushing your lane too hard, making you prone to ganks. I could pretend I don't last hit for couple of seconds, so that enemy is prone to gank, then call my teammare for a kill.
- Talking about ganking. You think ganking is simply 2 or more heroes ganking a lane? There's more. In DotA, they have wards as consumables which you can place for scouting. You see enemy is coming to your lane to gank. What do you do? Run to your tower for protection? That's noob because then the ganker will notice you placed a ward and he goes back farming to his lane...That's noob. Good player will take a gamble, and pretend he hasn't warded, making the ganker to wait and wait for the right time, the longer he waits the more that ganker wasted experience
- Want more depth? There are hero types that are very scalable/good for late game. Let's give that hero the last hit/ks so that he got the money. That's another simple but hard to execute strategy as everyone wants to be the superstar due to greed and arrogance.
- I can write never ending strategies to explain the depth even just for last hitting. But I'll stop here...
Agree that DotA genre is nowhere near in terms of complexity vs StarCraft RTS game. Nowhere near. But StarCraft game is for DemiGod, not for human like me or millions other. So there goes DotA!
I am sure you're going the be cold-headed and still not calling that skill/strategy/depth. I can understand that, especially considering you never even give that DOTA game a try... Sorry if you cannot enjoy so many games. Life is too good to be to cynic and critical you know. Enjoy little things, at least try it before declaring it's not fun, not skillful =)
Plus... The fact that DotA genre is so popular, even as eSport, with prize pool reaching $ Millions, with viewers surpassing StarCraft 2 of 300k simultanous viewers in an instance during the Dreamhack tournament, speaks for itself in terms of skill, fun, watchability, etc etc.
0
@jcraigk: Go
One can only speculate but the safest guess is one time purchase attached to bnet account, just like mobile app store, updates, add ins all free since it's one time purchase.
What you can do though is doing the Street Fighter strat if you want to reap more $$:
- Street Fighter
- Super Street Fighter
- Super Street Fighter Arcade
0
Yea show dark templar video!
0
Sometimes I read the forum and many people with great mapping skills are bashing TD. Mephs from Smashcraft for example. In fact, #1 Most Popular is Squadron TD which is Tower Defense game and by huge huge margin 32k hours vs #2 Special Forces 18k hours. Star Battle maxed out at 7.5k hours back then. Smashcraft on the other hand, stuck at 30 hours.
Tower Defense is not dead. Just have to be good one. Vexal TD managed to stay top for a long time too. Element TD stamped at 3k hours.
0
Your statement is actually not true. If you really follow the custom map scene, Blizzard had stagnated the counter for the popular maps like Marine Arena, Star Battle, SotiS, etc etc. aka. sabotage the popular maps. During that day you see mid page maps like Debates, Smashcraft, Aiur Chef, StarJeweled to occupy page 2, Vexal TD, Left 2 Die to occupy top spots. However after Blizzard release the coup de tat on the counter of popular maps, after a certain period of time, they got back to top page.
That Blizzard experiment above concludes that no matter how you try to mix it, most players still look for SotiS, Marine Arena, Star Battle even if it's burried in page 56 or 89 or whatever. And those maps that have been given a chance to occupy top pages are still not performing well (in terms of popularity).
Having said that, I disagree that non popular maps = suck. Smashcraft is awesome! But it lacks element that makes it popular. Debates is genius, but not everyone loves to think. Well, let's say Canon in D is a great great song, but it will NEVER EVER beat Justin Bieber in terms of popularity... Heck take Rebecca's Black Friday song. It's so popular because it has the elements that make it popular.
I still think that fixing Fun or Not is the step that Blizzard has to make. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
0
Reposting again. Simple Fix imo is Fun or Not being not retarded. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
0
Simple Fix imo is Fun or Not being not retarded. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
0
Simple Fix imo is Fun or Not being not retarded. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
I think this is the simplest fix we could wish for...
0
it's true that you should think through it to reduce chance getting sued. But all I am saying is stop thinking too much about getting sued that you stop making that project.
0
Stop thinking about lawsuit bs. Just do it first. If they starts to sue it means you have achieved success. And you should get flattered for being sued. It's as simple as that.
0
Oh and it's free too. Bill Gates even watch his videos to recall some of the memories!
0
Oh here's more detailed advice. Learn from that guy giving online math course video. What's his name? Khan i think. That's his video web: http://www.khanacademy.org/#algebra
0
@iSaintx: Go
You want an advice? Learn pre-algebra yourself at home or from friends. Its super easy not worth learning at college. Trust me. Then challenge for placement test so they'll let you jump directly to Calculus.
That's what I did back then. you can save money for that credit, finish college quicker by skipping those pre-algebra and algebra. That's 2 coursework you can save. use the time to make amazing map!
0
All I am saying wingednosering, is that when I first go play Formation Defense, I have no clue... So it's not like StarBattle in which when I first play I get the grasp of it.
StarBattle will get more complex as you are talking about build type, etc. etc. strength and weakness of each build etc etc.
I am talking about the first 2-3 minutes... Honestly I have been in your situation. I have released a TD back in Nov 2010. Reached bottom page 2 I think. And those who played it simply loved it. No negative feedback. I got tons tons of praise saying the best TD they have ever played. I got bunch of emails too. Got pinged left and right at Bnet. Heck, I even got a great great fan poem for the lore of my TD... I still have the screenshots of some of the players Match History. Those fans... uhhhh... They play nothing but my TD during that 2 weeks.... But does it matter???
It doesn't matter... My TD has non-standard game mechanic. Fully custom tower units. Competitive and complex strategy... It needs more than 2-3 minutes to get the grasp of the game mechanic. But the fact is whenever people play 60-70% quit within the first 5 mins because they got confused.... Typical chat log would be: "what just happened?" "I have no idea just following the flow lol" ... Only those who were willing to spend time to understand the game will get addicted.
I have been trying to simplify the game since and I still haven't been able to do that up until today. So 2-3 months ago I kinda gave up... And since then I've gone back to the scratch book trying to make the game understandable in the first 2-3 minutes..
Think Civilization... Wonderful, great great game... But will never sell as well as StarCraft 2.