On a serious note, Blizzard is the ones with the knowledge here, you guys don't know jackshit compared to them. All this talk about 'casualizing' the game. They know exactly what we want at Blizzard. They've got the game covered, and everything they've done, they've done for a reason.
On a serious note, Blizzard is the ones with the knowledge here, you guys don't know jackshit compared to them. All this talk about 'casualizing' the game. They know exactly what we want at Blizzard. They've got the game covered, and everything they've done, they've done for a reason.
While I agree with your sentiment, I don't necessarily agree with your argument. Following this logic every game that exists is good and we shouldn't ever doubt developers, since they know what we want better than we do.
I mean that none of us has played through the whole game, and that we don't know everything about how the game is possibly going to change in the later difficulties. Of course they can have made wrong decisions, but I'm sure that they've seen this game from all possible angles and that they've considered a lot of possible choices and THEN they've made the decisions. And I was talking specifically about Blizz, not other developers.I have faith in them :)
They work hard to anticipate what we want and work on that. Sadly sometimes they go in the wrong direction, and sometimes they don't think of something at all. That's what a beta is for, along with bug fixing.
Of course, nothing is truly tested until the masses get their hands on it. That is the test. Is it ripped to shreds....or does it stand up to expectations?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warning: Inquisitive mind at work.
Warning: Insanity is on the horizon.
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
Having played the D3 beta since the beginning, I've gotta say the game really isn't ready for release based on what they've shown us. There is a distinct lack of polish across all aspects of the game. The only exception being the environments which outshine the player/monster models. A telling sign being that they spent more time removing innovative features than they did refining the remaining features.
While I will inevitably receive D3 due to the annual pass, I honestly think Torchlight 2 is going to be more enjoyable to play than D3.
I would have preferred if they took another half a year getting it right than releasing it to a horde of careless, rabid fans. This is a time where "until it's finished" really would do the game a service.
So far well the skill system before was a mess...but they fixed it and I think its perfectly fine now. The game is enjoyable, even though I feel like monk fails to be as cool as it should have been (the combo system could be a bit better)
The concept of white items as being "loot confetti"
The awkward UI (has become progressively worse)
The change of runes from well polished orbs to tacky looking marble-esque stones (that you can see the white cutout borders of)
The change of the entire skill system from one that was compact and intuitive to a mess of tabs
The change of stat and weapon based abilities to pure weapon based abilities (2-Handed weapons on Wizards. . .huh?)
The removal of auto-attack as a viable alternative (why have auto-attack at all if they don't want us to use it?
The odd decision to not use normal maps on models (player models look like D2 and GW models)
There are numerous issues like this that, while not inherently bad on their own, haven't been given enough focus to iron out the drawback of the decision.
To me, the best version of D3 was released at the start of the Beta and they have diminished the quality of the product since then. They had a very solid product early on (with exception to the awkwardness with class resources) that should have been refined rather than revamped wholesale.
Every man is entitled to his own opionion. I just got to playing the beta in the last betakey-wave, and I think it's perfectly fine atm. But I didn't experience the beta in it's early stages though.
The auction house was added with the primary intent of preventing 3rd parties, and I pretty much like it.
I couldn't agree more. It also may make people more likely to purchase premium SC2 maps. People are more likely to have Blizzard money lying around in their account with D3, making it easier for someone to purchase SC2 maps.
If I haven't had to use money from my bank account and made the money through D3 instead, I would have no hesitation purchasing (good) SC2 custom maps.
For Stash restriction, is to force user to trade and buy stuff, via both kind of auction house, force items regulating though the economy and ultimately raise profit for blizzard. (there's nothing wrong with this)
Hopefully the stash will help in preventing a single person from gaining a monopoly over certain items on the auction house. It my even prevent the need to create a bank character for things like gems if it keeps the market under control and not inflated because people can hoard things.
The change of runes from well polished orbs to tacky looking marble-esque stones (that you can see the white cutout borders of)
Do you mean just the artwork or underlying skill system? Using random item drops that limit how you learn the different variations on abilities was kind of terrible, especially with auction houses. If it was obtained through quest/ story progression or from vendors it would have been better. While I haven't played the beta, I like the newer system.
Every man is entitled to his own opionion. I just got to playing the beta in the last betakey-wave, and I think it's perfectly fine atm. But I didn't experience the beta in it's early stages though.
I've found that to be a fairly common remark. Anyone who played the early beta is typically not happy with the current form, while late arrivals find it satisfactory. D3 isn't a horrible game as is, it's simply that we've seen a version that is superior to what we have now and many are left wondering "why didn't you keep it that way?"
Do you mean just the artwork or underlying skill system? Using random item drops that limit how you learn the different variations on abilities was kind of terrible, especially with auction houses. If it was obtained through quest/ story progression or from vendors it would have been better. While I haven't played the beta, I like the newer system.
Both. The artwork for the previous runes were much better looking than the new runes. As a result of drastically changing the system, the art quality diminished. This can be seen in many other areas where they had a solid system that they changed for one reason or another resulting it a brand new interface that wasn't as visually polished as older elements.
I feel that given the considerable amount of changes they rolled out recently, it's too early to be trying to release a polished game. They're going to drop the ball somewhere and have to fix it later anyways. I'd have preferred they take the time to get it right the first time is all.
I still haven't decided if I should buy it or not. It really seems like the kind of game that will just get me bored and won't replay it... But we'll see.
I have criticism on both games, D3 and path of exile with regards of the artistic style. I didn't get into D3 beta but the graphics for it are just "meh" but really, that's how blizzard games are so I don't see why people are complaining about this. POE's supposed to be "better" and have a better artistic direction but it doesn't really. Although I have really enjoyed the beta so far the graphics are too plastic EVERYWHERE. There's no single place where there's no reflection. I mean, look at real life man, rocks don't reflect light like that...
Tru that, I think PoE still has a ways to go before the art is something I'm happy with but considering they're an indie studio and they're iteratively improving the graphics from patch to patch, I'd say in a year it'll have excellent graphics.
Quote:
Both games seem to be really easy so far or "casual'd" like Jack said. The thing I've hated the most about PoE that D3 does offer is an actual real MMO "feel", For example in PoE you kill stuff in "instances" (which are the maps) and no one but you can join that instance so you're pretty much alone in every place other than cities.
Other people can play with you in your instance :O
Quote:
Thing that in D3 you can. So I'd bet it'd be easier to grow a community that relies entirely in the game and not in the forums or the "global" chat and for god's sake, sometimes I just want people to SHUT THE HELL UP in poe's global chat. Seriously wtf, every hour there's a D3 vs PoE discussion that NO ONE WANTS TO LISTEN TO.
afaik you can turn off global chat ;o
<<quote>> Also don't know if it's just because of it being a beta but PoE seems to have no storyline other than the one that you were exiled from a land and just randomly start doing quests, and not that randomly since they seem to take you on a very linear path.
Still wish I had gotten into the D3 beta and could've played it so I could judge D3 more fairly too.
<</quote>>
Yeah that's cos PoE is beta, they've got a proper storyline planned to the best of my knowledge.
I know other people can join your intances, if you're on a party, but quite honestly it's hard to find some and who cares about them when you can easily clear any instance in probably under 2 minutes. You'd be wiping out every single instance in less than 30 seconds in a party :P
TL;DR too easy :P
And I know you can turn global chat ;o
And I sure hope they have a storyline planned... other than "ohi you're exiled. kill stuff for no reason whatsoever."
And also, not sure why are you adressing my PoE comments. This IS a D3 topic, I merely mentioned it because I wanted to give my opinion on the so called savior game of all time that people brought up :P
Blizzard has been running awfully late with the release schedule and really had to get it out the door. I'm surprised it looks as solid as it does now, all things considered. They made lots of drastic changes for the beta (which I did participate in from the early-middle up until now) and, quite frankly, it has gotten better. Some of the old gameplay decisions made no sense, and the artwork looks pretty solid to me. The fidelity is nowhere near cutting edge but the game still looks pretty good, and it has some amazing art direction. The game really looks like a moving painting.
Some of the interface is a little less polished than it used to be, but it's not that big of a deal. It's the kind of thing that can be patched out. The only thing I'm actually worried about is the uselessness of whites. I hope it's just part of the first act that the whites are useless to sell because I'd like to see some nonmagical items that are worth keeping to sell or in rare cases equip. It's like they were originally intended to be part of the Mystic's enchantment stuff, but when the Mystic was removed the purpose of the whites were lost.
On a serious note, Blizzard is the ones with the knowledge here, you guys don't know jackshit compared to them. All this talk about 'casualizing' the game. They know exactly what we want at Blizzard. They've got the game covered, and everything they've done, they've done for a reason.
They work hard to "casualize" the game. And a lot of people sure do put "blind faith" into Blizzard. On that note, fan cries have been heard for things like character names showing everywhere and "normal" being substantially harder now (we actually take damage now!). I don't know, if people just accepted Blizz's decision, do you think normal would be improved to the point it is now?
Having played the D3 beta since the beginning, I've gotta say the game really isn't ready for release based on what they've shown us. There is a distinct lack of polish across all aspects of the game. The only exception being the environments which outshine the player/monster models. A telling sign being that they spent more time removing innovative features than they did refining the remaining features.
While I will inevitably receive D3 due to the annual pass, I honestly think Torchlight 2 is going to be more enjoyable to play than D3.
I would have preferred if they took another half a year getting it right than releasing it to a horde of careless, rabid fans. This is a time where "until it's finished" really would do the game a service.
I have not been in the beta since the beginning, but I still find myself agreeing with you. But not for all of the same reasons. Mine pertain to Bnet and the recent skills UI mostly, which both have been almost unanimously criticized.
What's really improved though is the difficulty, loot explosions, and AH interface.
Quote:
The concept of white items as being "loot confetti"
Personally, not a huge issue for me. But white items have become really annoying now since they have no use and get in the way of picking up good stuff. My final point for this is that in D2 I had enough MF that at higher levels almost every drop is blue or greater.
Quote:
The awkward UI (has become progressively worse)
Agreed.
Quote:
The change of runes from well polished orbs to tacky looking marble-esque stones (that you can see the white cutout borders of)
I agree, the art change was strange.
Quote:
The change of the entire skill system from one that was compact and intuitive to a mess of tabs
Totally agree. Just look at the Wizard as an example. The groupings are now completely arbitrary and make you waste time just to look at and browse for skills.
Quote:
The change of stat and weapon based abilities to pure weapon based abilities (2-Handed weapons on Wizards. . .huh?)
I agree about it being weird in some cases, but I think because of the +intellect stats or w/e else on wands (not to mention that wands have about the same dps as comparable axes/swords etc), it will still be more worth it to use your standard weapon-types. I also think it's really cool that casters now scale with weapon-damage like meleers do, so they can't just stack 180MF on a crappy gemmable weapon.
Quote:
The removal of auto-attack as a viable alternative (why have auto-attack at all if they don't want us to use it?
I think this issue goes more into the new resource systems. The classes almost never have to wait anymore, as you had to in D2 and WoW with typical mana systems. Everyone can now just use their spells all of the time, thus negating most needs for auto attack.
Quote:
The odd decision to not use normal maps on models (player models look like D2 and GW models)
Not huge for me.
I miss named games too; while right now we can join games fast (and fill quest runs fast), I feel like the current join game system is JUST like the popularity system in so many ways lol. I mean, in release when there'll be X amount of quests, I have to imagine it might be hard to fill games some times... whereas in D2, you could browse the current 'named' games, so it funneled people together. Not only that, it also gave us the ability to run whatever we wanted, or host 'free items' games etc... right now you're pretty much just bottle-necked into quests.
At least we got *some* form of public chat to group up with people that way too :/
Edit: Also, regarding casualizing the game... it might just be a by-product of their current WoW mentality. As Rob Pardo said somewhere, their initial hardcore fans played WoW for the first few years and many have moved on, so they had to cater to a different audience that grew in the later years of WoW. But with D3, I personally think a lot of the more hardcore gamers will be coming back to Blizz (ie myself). Regardless, Diablo 3 still fits the 'easy to learn, difficult to master' mantra imo... I'm quite happy with the gameplay itself so far!
Well, if your manatee had a beard...
Challenged accepted
On a serious note, Blizzard is the ones with the knowledge here, you guys don't know jackshit compared to them. All this talk about 'casualizing' the game. They know exactly what we want at Blizzard. They've got the game covered, and everything they've done, they've done for a reason.
While I agree with your sentiment, I don't necessarily agree with your argument. Following this logic every game that exists is good and we shouldn't ever doubt developers, since they know what we want better than we do.
@Mozared: Go
I mean that none of us has played through the whole game, and that we don't know everything about how the game is possibly going to change in the later difficulties. Of course they can have made wrong decisions, but I'm sure that they've seen this game from all possible angles and that they've considered a lot of possible choices and THEN they've made the decisions. And I was talking specifically about Blizz, not other developers.I have faith in them :)
They work hard to anticipate what we want and work on that. Sadly sometimes they go in the wrong direction, and sometimes they don't think of something at all. That's what a beta is for, along with bug fixing.
Of course, nothing is truly tested until the masses get their hands on it. That is the test. Is it ripped to shreds....or does it stand up to expectations?
Having played the D3 beta since the beginning, I've gotta say the game really isn't ready for release based on what they've shown us. There is a distinct lack of polish across all aspects of the game. The only exception being the environments which outshine the player/monster models. A telling sign being that they spent more time removing innovative features than they did refining the remaining features.
While I will inevitably receive D3 due to the annual pass, I honestly think Torchlight 2 is going to be more enjoyable to play than D3.
I would have preferred if they took another half a year getting it right than releasing it to a horde of careless, rabid fans. This is a time where "until it's finished" really would do the game a service.
@ProzaicMuze: Go
I wonder what you think lacks polish?
So far well the skill system before was a mess...but they fixed it and I think its perfectly fine now. The game is enjoyable, even though I feel like monk fails to be as cool as it should have been (the combo system could be a bit better)
Iv had fun in the d3 beta atleast...
The concept of white items as being "loot confetti"
The awkward UI (has become progressively worse)
The change of runes from well polished orbs to tacky looking marble-esque stones (that you can see the white cutout borders of)
The change of the entire skill system from one that was compact and intuitive to a mess of tabs
The change of stat and weapon based abilities to pure weapon based abilities (2-Handed weapons on Wizards. . .huh?)
The removal of auto-attack as a viable alternative (why have auto-attack at all if they don't want us to use it?
The odd decision to not use normal maps on models (player models look like D2 and GW models)
There are numerous issues like this that, while not inherently bad on their own, haven't been given enough focus to iron out the drawback of the decision.
To me, the best version of D3 was released at the start of the Beta and they have diminished the quality of the product since then. They had a very solid product early on (with exception to the awkwardness with class resources) that should have been refined rather than revamped wholesale.
@ProzaicMuze: Go
Every man is entitled to his own opionion. I just got to playing the beta in the last betakey-wave, and I think it's perfectly fine atm. But I didn't experience the beta in it's early stages though.
I couldn't agree more. It also may make people more likely to purchase premium SC2 maps. People are more likely to have Blizzard money lying around in their account with D3, making it easier for someone to purchase SC2 maps.
If I haven't had to use money from my bank account and made the money through D3 instead, I would have no hesitation purchasing (good) SC2 custom maps.
Hopefully the stash will help in preventing a single person from gaining a monopoly over certain items on the auction house. It my even prevent the need to create a bank character for things like gems if it keeps the market under control and not inflated because people can hoard things.
Do you mean just the artwork or underlying skill system? Using random item drops that limit how you learn the different variations on abilities was kind of terrible, especially with auction houses. If it was obtained through quest/ story progression or from vendors it would have been better. While I haven't played the beta, I like the newer system.
I've found that to be a fairly common remark. Anyone who played the early beta is typically not happy with the current form, while late arrivals find it satisfactory. D3 isn't a horrible game as is, it's simply that we've seen a version that is superior to what we have now and many are left wondering "why didn't you keep it that way?"
Both. The artwork for the previous runes were much better looking than the new runes. As a result of drastically changing the system, the art quality diminished. This can be seen in many other areas where they had a solid system that they changed for one reason or another resulting it a brand new interface that wasn't as visually polished as older elements.
I feel that given the considerable amount of changes they rolled out recently, it's too early to be trying to release a polished game. They're going to drop the ball somewhere and have to fix it later anyways. I'd have preferred they take the time to get it right the first time is all.
Tru that, I think PoE still has a ways to go before the art is something I'm happy with but considering they're an indie studio and they're iteratively improving the graphics from patch to patch, I'd say in a year it'll have excellent graphics.
Other people can play with you in your instance :O
afaik you can turn off global chat ;o
<<quote>>
Also don't know if it's just because of it being a beta but PoE seems to have no storyline other than the one that you were exiled from a land and just randomly start doing quests, and not that randomly since they seem to take you on a very linear path.Still wish I had gotten into the D3 beta and could've played it so I could judge D3 more fairly too. <</quote>>
Yeah that's cos PoE is beta, they've got a proper storyline planned to the best of my knowledge.
I know other people can join your intances, if you're on a party, but quite honestly it's hard to find some and who cares about them when you can easily clear any instance in probably under 2 minutes. You'd be wiping out every single instance in less than 30 seconds in a party :P
TL;DR too easy :P
And I know you can turn global chat ;o
And I sure hope they have a storyline planned... other than "ohi you're exiled. kill stuff for no reason whatsoever."
And also, not sure why are you adressing my PoE comments. This IS a D3 topic, I merely mentioned it because I wanted to give my opinion on the so called savior game of all time that people brought up :P
Blizzard has been running awfully late with the release schedule and really had to get it out the door. I'm surprised it looks as solid as it does now, all things considered. They made lots of drastic changes for the beta (which I did participate in from the early-middle up until now) and, quite frankly, it has gotten better. Some of the old gameplay decisions made no sense, and the artwork looks pretty solid to me. The fidelity is nowhere near cutting edge but the game still looks pretty good, and it has some amazing art direction. The game really looks like a moving painting.
Some of the interface is a little less polished than it used to be, but it's not that big of a deal. It's the kind of thing that can be patched out. The only thing I'm actually worried about is the uselessness of whites. I hope it's just part of the first act that the whites are useless to sell because I'd like to see some nonmagical items that are worth keeping to sell or in rare cases equip. It's like they were originally intended to be part of the Mystic's enchantment stuff, but when the Mystic was removed the purpose of the whites were lost.
They work hard to "casualize" the game. And a lot of people sure do put "blind faith" into Blizzard. On that note, fan cries have been heard for things like character names showing everywhere and "normal" being substantially harder now (we actually take damage now!). I don't know, if people just accepted Blizz's decision, do you think normal would be improved to the point it is now?
I have not been in the beta since the beginning, but I still find myself agreeing with you. But not for all of the same reasons. Mine pertain to Bnet and the recent skills UI mostly, which both have been almost unanimously criticized.
What's really improved though is the difficulty, loot explosions, and AH interface.
Personally, not a huge issue for me. But white items have become really annoying now since they have no use and get in the way of picking up good stuff. My final point for this is that in D2 I had enough MF that at higher levels almost every drop is blue or greater.
Agreed.
I agree, the art change was strange.
Totally agree. Just look at the Wizard as an example. The groupings are now completely arbitrary and make you waste time just to look at and browse for skills.
I agree about it being weird in some cases, but I think because of the +intellect stats or w/e else on wands (not to mention that wands have about the same dps as comparable axes/swords etc), it will still be more worth it to use your standard weapon-types. I also think it's really cool that casters now scale with weapon-damage like meleers do, so they can't just stack 180MF on a crappy gemmable weapon.
I think this issue goes more into the new resource systems. The classes almost never have to wait anymore, as you had to in D2 and WoW with typical mana systems. Everyone can now just use their spells all of the time, thus negating most needs for auto attack.
Not huge for me.
I miss named games too; while right now we can join games fast (and fill quest runs fast), I feel like the current join game system is JUST like the popularity system in so many ways lol. I mean, in release when there'll be X amount of quests, I have to imagine it might be hard to fill games some times... whereas in D2, you could browse the current 'named' games, so it funneled people together. Not only that, it also gave us the ability to run whatever we wanted, or host 'free items' games etc... right now you're pretty much just bottle-necked into quests.
At least we got *some* form of public chat to group up with people that way too :/
Edit: Also, regarding casualizing the game... it might just be a by-product of their current WoW mentality. As Rob Pardo said somewhere, their initial hardcore fans played WoW for the first few years and many have moved on, so they had to cater to a different audience that grew in the later years of WoW. But with D3, I personally think a lot of the more hardcore gamers will be coming back to Blizz (ie myself). Regardless, Diablo 3 still fits the 'easy to learn, difficult to master' mantra imo... I'm quite happy with the gameplay itself so far!