i would even say the only spot. sc2 maps take much more dev time than wc3 maps. editor is way more complex.
bnet 2.0 offers server side hosting and that's it with the pros. the con list for bnet 2.0 is too long and i ranted about sc2 custom map support too often already
In summary it can be statet that if you are planning to create something that only works with more than one player you will need to put ALOT more effort into to get some ppl play your map (or have a genius idea), because of the shitty popularity system (i just cannot stop ranting about bnet 2.0, i just cannot) and the inability to name lobbies.
basically we , the sc2 players, play the same custom maps we have played 4 years ago
As an old wc3 mapper who changed over years ago to sc2; I can add more insight into the sc2 custom gaming scene; and the community.
as a wc3 map maker; I am sure you have been to the hive workshop before, to admire assets if nothing else. The hive has on average, 1300-1500 people online at any given time. SC2 mapster has around 15. Good help is hard to find; chances are that you will start and finish any project by yourself. The active online community also; you would have a better chance of a map rising up on wc3 through the hive or garena, than you would through the sc2 custom gaming system/community. The top 10 maps for this contest which just passed are not even played. A guy won 7000 dollars and a meet and greet with blizzard devs, and his map is not played.
With that said, the editor is much... much... more complex. The trigger editor is great, far above the wc3 trigger editor. This is the major cudos, and the only thing that becomes easier. Making custom UI, which isnt required, but is nice for any decent game, is the most time consuming thing for triggering. Data is where everything comes together to hurt you. Say you want a hero type unit with 1 ability which has multiple levels, and 2 items that he can pick up. You need to create the unit itself, the model for the unit, the actor for the model, the mover for the unit, you need to set the model up to perform proper animations when attacking, moving, turning, fighting, ect. you need to create a missile, and a mover for the missile, if your hero shoots a missile. you need to create a behavior for your hero to revive, if you want that feature. you need to create a behavior for each attribute type you want a hero to have, you need to actually create those attributes, and what they do. That is just the hero. the ability and the item each have lists just as long. This is the biggest change from wc3 to sc2. The amount of data objects and their uniqueness you will be able to put in a map is uncomparable. Many wc3 maps have over 100 unique units to pick from, and hundreds of items. You would likely spend 500+ hours to recreate 50 hours worth of data work from wc3 (Which you can usually do with 1 hand while eating doritos).
That said, the sc2 editor is a very powerful tool; and you can make anything you want to make. there are thousands of amazing, well made games out there which have never been seen. there are hundreds of maps which were the most popular game for a week; and then were never seen again. If you want to make something, you need to make it for yourself; and you need to assume no one will ever play it. Depressing; yes. Pretty much accurate, sure!
That is a fantastic, though slightly depressing summary!
I've never used the WC3 Editor but from what I can tell, the SC2 Editor is tremendously more difficult. Only having experience with the SC1 Editor, it took me about 2 years of practice to make anything worthwhile in SC2. The Trigger Editor is pretty much programming, so if you have any programming experience it probably won't trip you up too much. Data though is an absolute beast.
I do agree with FunkyUserName that the biggest obstacle to overcome is Bnet 2.0. But I think I'm a little more optimistic than most that Blizz wants to fix things. The recent Rock the Cabinet competition shows that they're willing to put effort and money into the mapmaking scene, and with the LOTV expansion still being worked on, I think at the very worst SC2 still has a few more years of relevancy. I'm hoping, of course, that things are fixed and supported to the point where the Arcade can thrive for many years after LOTV, but that might be a bit too optimistic.
Anyway, I say go for it! I haven't been an entirely successful mapmaker, but I count my experiences to have been very positive, albeit at times just a tad frustrating.
i wouldn't bet on that. all ressources are spend on HotStorm since they really have to compete on that stage and that already yesterday. why should they spend any more money in a 4 year old game which hasn't been as succesful in esports as they have wished and all changes made to arcade are an improvement but still don't address the main issues. LotV will just bring another shitty forseenable story.
the only thing i am a bit optimistic about is that HotStorm and sc2 will be compatible with each other because everything else would be total bullshit and just very very stupid, but on the other hand as sc2 launched we didnt have chatrooms, soooooo.....
I say, do it for the sake of doing it! Learning the map and making stuffs is just a hobby. And even though the arcade scene is pretty much dead, its still got some life to it. And someone may still play your maps and add comments.
My theory is that, Blizzard's strategy is to use arcade as a means to boost its sales. Right before HotS, they added patch 1.5. This patch added the open lobby system which made arcade actually almost useful. Without this patch, the arcade would be completely dead right now.
So when LotV is ready for release, they may once again fix b.net and give us the full functionality of original b.net. Reviving the arcade may help boost its sales. The hype of actually fixing the arcade may be enough to get tons of people back into sc2. [they'll do something sneaky, like forcing players to have LotV to host maps, or require LotV to play new maps...] That's the theory, and I'm putting my money on it! LotV will fix the arcade and revive mapping, so yeah, start mapping now so you can reap the rewards when they finally fix the arcade!
Thanks for the replies. I was wondering more about the single player community. I am thinking of partially remaking Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday. Its an old PC/Genesis game that I really liked. Is there still a substantial player base for that kind of thing?
The top 10 maps for this contest which just passed are not even played. A guy won 7000 dollars and a meet and greet with blizzard devs, and his map is not played.
Why do people keep saying that? My map, Ultimate Boss Battles (2nd winner) is page 1 or 2. Star Party, though not as popular, is played periodically, going from page 3 to page 5.
Why do people keep saying that? My map, Ultimate Boss Battles (2nd winner) is page 1 or 2. Star Party, though not as popular, is played periodically, going from page 3 to page 5.
Okay, now I see your point.
I didn't know you were helping dalemon (spelling?)) on his map. I personally enjoyed playing that when it was still "secret boss testing" a bit less clicky; turned more cat+mouse later on imo.
I am not trying to break balls on games popularity or anything; but a page 2 map is rank what... 30? Last I looked it was around there. I am not saying it isn't a good game; I am not saying any game is bad. There are thousands of great games which you simply cannot get a lobby for. Star party being page 3-5 is a great example. A well made, fun game. Page 5 is what? a few plays per day?
Single player games never do too well, sadly. reason being, they have limited replay value most of the time. That isn't saying that they arent fun or that people dont play them. It is saying that if your map doesn't make it to page 2 of most played at some point; very few people will see it. to get to page 2; you need to compete hours with games which have 6 players active at a time.
as above stated: Map for yourself, and map for fun!
I didn't know you were helping dalemon (spelling?)) on his map. I personally enjoyed playing that when it was still "secret boss testing" a bit less clicky; turned more cat+mouse later on imo.
He's my brother, we made it together. It's page 1 right now, has been since the winners were announced and now that we can update it. It never goes below page 2, and most of the time it hovers at the top of page 2. Definitely the most popular of the top 10, and almost the 81 contestants.
And I got what you were saying after I realized that only 2 of the 10 were consistently played at all.
As an old wc3 mapper who changed over years ago to sc2; I can add more insight into the sc2 custom gaming scene; and the community.
as a wc3 map maker; I am sure you have been to the hive workshop before, to admire assets if nothing else. The hive has on average, 1300-1500 people online at any given time. SC2 mapster has around 15. Good help is hard to find; chances are that you will start and finish any project by yourself. The active online community also; you would have a better chance of a map rising up on wc3 through the hive or garena, than you would through the sc2 custom gaming system/community. The top 10 maps for this contest which just passed are not even played. A guy won 7000 dollars and a meet and greet with blizzard devs, and his map is not played.
With that said, the editor is much... much... more complex. The trigger editor is great, far above the wc3 trigger editor. This is the major cudos, and the only thing that becomes easier. Making custom UI, which isnt required, but is nice for any decent game, is the most time consuming thing for triggering. Data is where everything comes together to hurt you. Say you want a hero type unit with 1 ability which has multiple levels, and 2 items that he can pick up. You need to create the unit itself, the model for the unit, the actor for the model, the mover for the unit, you need to set the model up to perform proper animations when attacking, moving, turning, fighting, ect. you need to create a missile, and a mover for the missile, if your hero shoots a missile. you need to create a behavior for your hero to revive, if you want that feature. you need to create a behavior for each attribute type you want a hero to have, you need to actually create those attributes, and what they do. That is just the hero. the ability and the item each have lists just as long. This is the biggest change from wc3 to sc2. The amount of data objects and their uniqueness you will be able to put in a map is uncomparable. Many wc3 maps have over 100 unique units to pick from, and hundreds of items. You would likely spend 500+ hours to recreate 50 hours worth of data work from wc3 (Which you can usually do with 1 hand while eating doritos).
That said, the sc2 editor is a very powerful tool; and you can make anything you want to make. there are thousands of amazing, well made games out there which have never been seen. there are hundreds of maps which were the most popular game for a week; and then were never seen again. If you want to make something, you need to make it for yourself; and you need to assume no one will ever play it. Depressing; yes. Pretty much accurate, sure!
The hive has on average 1300 people online at any given time? I find that hard to believe nowadays, sure, that might have been the case at some point, but now? Do you have a source on that?
It says the number of active users online at the bottom of the forums. Right now it says there are 1,571 active users.
Wow, interesting. I still find it hard to believe, expecially seeing how only 130 of those are members but 1300 of those are guests. Bots perhaps? Anyways, I guess we can still settle for it that its significantely more than SC2 has, but oh well, I never cared for that, anyways.
What I do care for is that hive workshop has a Starcraft 2 section, thats pretty cool.
It is true about the WC3 editor i try it and it really dosent compare how advance and well taking care of SC2 editor is.
WC3 is the past, SC2 is the future at lightning speed.
I created a few maps for WC3, and am considering making one for SC2 out of nostalgia.
Is this a good spot to talk about it?
My maps are quite old now, but back in the day I made a few good ones. You can check out my most popular one here via Google: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=season+of+uncertainty+the+dark+phoenix
Thanks!
@Gravano: Go
i would even say the only spot. sc2 maps take much more dev time than wc3 maps. editor is way more complex.
bnet 2.0 offers server side hosting and that's it with the pros. the con list for bnet 2.0 is too long and i ranted about sc2 custom map support too often already
In summary it can be statet that if you are planning to create something that only works with more than one player you will need to put ALOT more effort into to get some ppl play your map (or have a genius idea), because of the shitty popularity system (i just cannot stop ranting about bnet 2.0, i just cannot) and the inability to name lobbies.
basically we , the sc2 players, play the same custom maps we have played 4 years ago
As an old wc3 mapper who changed over years ago to sc2; I can add more insight into the sc2 custom gaming scene; and the community.
as a wc3 map maker; I am sure you have been to the hive workshop before, to admire assets if nothing else. The hive has on average, 1300-1500 people online at any given time. SC2 mapster has around 15. Good help is hard to find; chances are that you will start and finish any project by yourself. The active online community also; you would have a better chance of a map rising up on wc3 through the hive or garena, than you would through the sc2 custom gaming system/community. The top 10 maps for this contest which just passed are not even played. A guy won 7000 dollars and a meet and greet with blizzard devs, and his map is not played.
With that said, the editor is much... much... more complex. The trigger editor is great, far above the wc3 trigger editor. This is the major cudos, and the only thing that becomes easier. Making custom UI, which isnt required, but is nice for any decent game, is the most time consuming thing for triggering. Data is where everything comes together to hurt you. Say you want a hero type unit with 1 ability which has multiple levels, and 2 items that he can pick up. You need to create the unit itself, the model for the unit, the actor for the model, the mover for the unit, you need to set the model up to perform proper animations when attacking, moving, turning, fighting, ect. you need to create a missile, and a mover for the missile, if your hero shoots a missile. you need to create a behavior for your hero to revive, if you want that feature. you need to create a behavior for each attribute type you want a hero to have, you need to actually create those attributes, and what they do. That is just the hero. the ability and the item each have lists just as long. This is the biggest change from wc3 to sc2. The amount of data objects and their uniqueness you will be able to put in a map is uncomparable. Many wc3 maps have over 100 unique units to pick from, and hundreds of items. You would likely spend 500+ hours to recreate 50 hours worth of data work from wc3 (Which you can usually do with 1 hand while eating doritos).
That said, the sc2 editor is a very powerful tool; and you can make anything you want to make. there are thousands of amazing, well made games out there which have never been seen. there are hundreds of maps which were the most popular game for a week; and then were never seen again. If you want to make something, you need to make it for yourself; and you need to assume no one will ever play it. Depressing; yes. Pretty much accurate, sure!
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
@GlornII: Go
That is a fantastic, though slightly depressing summary!
I've never used the WC3 Editor but from what I can tell, the SC2 Editor is tremendously more difficult. Only having experience with the SC1 Editor, it took me about 2 years of practice to make anything worthwhile in SC2. The Trigger Editor is pretty much programming, so if you have any programming experience it probably won't trip you up too much. Data though is an absolute beast.
I do agree with FunkyUserName that the biggest obstacle to overcome is Bnet 2.0. But I think I'm a little more optimistic than most that Blizz wants to fix things. The recent Rock the Cabinet competition shows that they're willing to put effort and money into the mapmaking scene, and with the LOTV expansion still being worked on, I think at the very worst SC2 still has a few more years of relevancy. I'm hoping, of course, that things are fixed and supported to the point where the Arcade can thrive for many years after LOTV, but that might be a bit too optimistic.
Anyway, I say go for it! I haven't been an entirely successful mapmaker, but I count my experiences to have been very positive, albeit at times just a tad frustrating.
rut
@rutegar: Go
i wouldn't bet on that. all ressources are spend on HotStorm since they really have to compete on that stage and that already yesterday. why should they spend any more money in a 4 year old game which hasn't been as succesful in esports as they have wished and all changes made to arcade are an improvement but still don't address the main issues. LotV will just bring another shitty forseenable story.
the only thing i am a bit optimistic about is that HotStorm and sc2 will be compatible with each other because everything else would be total bullshit and just very very stupid, but on the other hand as sc2 launched we didnt have chatrooms, soooooo.....
I say, do it for the sake of doing it! Learning the map and making stuffs is just a hobby. And even though the arcade scene is pretty much dead, its still got some life to it. And someone may still play your maps and add comments.
My theory is that, Blizzard's strategy is to use arcade as a means to boost its sales. Right before HotS, they added patch 1.5. This patch added the open lobby system which made arcade actually almost useful. Without this patch, the arcade would be completely dead right now.
So when LotV is ready for release, they may once again fix b.net and give us the full functionality of original b.net. Reviving the arcade may help boost its sales. The hype of actually fixing the arcade may be enough to get tons of people back into sc2. [they'll do something sneaky, like forcing players to have LotV to host maps, or require LotV to play new maps...] That's the theory, and I'm putting my money on it! LotV will fix the arcade and revive mapping, so yeah, start mapping now so you can reap the rewards when they finally fix the arcade!
Thanks for the replies. I was wondering more about the single player community. I am thinking of partially remaking Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday. Its an old PC/Genesis game that I really liked. Is there still a substantial player base for that kind of thing?
Why do people keep saying that? My map, Ultimate Boss Battles (2nd winner) is page 1 or 2. Star Party, though not as popular, is played periodically, going from page 3 to page 5.
Okay, now I see your point.
I didn't know you were helping dalemon (spelling?)) on his map. I personally enjoyed playing that when it was still "secret boss testing" a bit less clicky; turned more cat+mouse later on imo.
I am not trying to break balls on games popularity or anything; but a page 2 map is rank what... 30? Last I looked it was around there. I am not saying it isn't a good game; I am not saying any game is bad. There are thousands of great games which you simply cannot get a lobby for. Star party being page 3-5 is a great example. A well made, fun game. Page 5 is what? a few plays per day?
Single player games never do too well, sadly. reason being, they have limited replay value most of the time. That isn't saying that they arent fun or that people dont play them. It is saying that if your map doesn't make it to page 2 of most played at some point; very few people will see it. to get to page 2; you need to compete hours with games which have 6 players active at a time.
as above stated: Map for yourself, and map for fun!
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
@GlornII: Go
He's my brother, we made it together. It's page 1 right now, has been since the winners were announced and now that we can update it. It never goes below page 2, and most of the time it hovers at the top of page 2. Definitely the most popular of the top 10, and almost the 81 contestants.
And I got what you were saying after I realized that only 2 of the 10 were consistently played at all.
The hive has on average 1300 people online at any given time? I find that hard to believe nowadays, sure, that might have been the case at some point, but now? Do you have a source on that?
@Crainy: Go
It says the number of active users online at the bottom of the forums. Right now it says there are 1,571 active users.
Wow, interesting. I still find it hard to believe, expecially seeing how only 130 of those are members but 1300 of those are guests. Bots perhaps? Anyways, I guess we can still settle for it that its significantely more than SC2 has, but oh well, I never cared for that, anyways.
What I do care for is that hive workshop has a Starcraft 2 section, thats pretty cool.
@Crainy: Go
Unfortunately, their SC2 section is significantly less active than Mapster. The last post there was 10 days ago.
Not really: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/modifications-development-presentation-664/
@Crainy: Go
I stand corrected. Still, their SC2 section is still less active than Mapster.
@Nebuli2: Go
they basically have one guy and sometimes me answering questions there.
The WC3 Editor is little kids play compare to SC2 editor by light years!!!!!
@thelittlemaster: Go
It is true about the WC3 editor i try it and it really dosent compare how advance and well taking care of SC2 editor is. WC3 is the past, SC2 is the future at lightning speed.
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