@Taintedwisp: Go Ohhh boy, why so much hate? Do you realize you already posted all your arguments a hundred times and now you just bring havoc to all threads and touch the marketplace subject? I don't even know how the guys around here still have patience to debate it with you.
:)), I keep debating it because blizzard sees this... and I will not let it go unopposed thats really all :) all of their arguements have been posted 100x too :P
Tainted, I'm sorry to say this, but if Blizzard were to see what you're saying, they would have. And even if they see it, it doesn't mean that they'll care. Really, you just keep saying the same stuff and annoying lots of people, but you're never really going to accomplish anything by doing so.
Tainted, I'm sorry to say this, but if Blizzard were to see what you're saying, they would have. And even if they see it, it doesn't mean that they'll care. Really, you just keep saying the same stuff and annoying lots of people, but you're never really going to accomplish anything by doing so.
I actually agree with Tainted, maps should always be free, it would create too many problems if maps were paid including the fact that it would become unfair to older map makers.
To force people to pay money on a map that were previously free is unfair and to exempt older makes from being paid for is unfair, so either way someone gets screwed.
While we would all like some money, the world does not pay you for your hobbies and that's what map making is. No one is forcing you to work for free on a map so it is really your choice to work on it because you want to. The satisfaction of making a good map and being proud of it should be enough, this is why things like Wikipedia and Linux exists, because people want something to make them feel accomplished and that is more valuable than money.
Way better said then I have been saying it :P. I still think a donate button would be a Win/Win for everyone involved. That way your paid if people like what you made and want to support it, but your not paying to have an advantage or to play.
With the Arcade changes popping up I'm thinking we'll see some more on the subject as HOTS comes out - they seem to have the arbitrary stuff out of the way now.
I'll hope. Don't close the thread before HOTS release, just in case :)
No it would not enhance the quality, you cannot do better then your own skill just because someone waves a dollar in your face...
If someone knows that his work is paid, he tries harder to improve his skills. If person tries to do the work for free, at the output we get something that is done for free. Think this through.
Charging people to play, or charing people to win a game is horseshit after they already paid for the damn game, if Sc2 was Free 2 play, that would be different. but its not. If it was free 2 play then people who DID buy the game should get every map for free anyways -_-... there is a system that COULD be put in that I would support... but there is no intrest in it.
Okay, man... i think you refuse to see a big picture here.
Actually usually, if someone knows they can get paid to more to do the bare minimum rather then take a risk and do something innovative they will never improve, Take COD as an example... Battlefield? mario? They never do anything new, because they don't know HOW people will react. you might see better polished versions of older maps sure. but your not going to see anything new, and greater.
If someone knows that his work is paid, he tries harder to improve his skills. If person tries to do the work for free, at the output we get something that is done for free. Think this through.
Okay, man... i think you refuse to see a big picture here.
I have to agree of both of these points having actually been a paid mapper myself. While yes working slowly and paying attention to every little detail when taking your time on a free project is one way of putting out extreme quality worked, paid work is just another route laid out through the price/quality/speed triangle; the only difference is with paid work there is more pressure to get the work done on a faster schedule and still producing high quality maps that meet the expectation of the person who is (or may not be ) paying out. So basically if you want a high quality map thats free expect to sacrifice time (and a lot of it) otherwise if you want its fast expect it to cost.
As far as the big picture, Tainted is far over reacting which isn't unusual. Last time i check leagues of legions was just as free to play yet they make a killing . Even with the marketplace not every map is going to cost as he suggest; the average mapper can't even produce quality works that would get enough income to warrant it and the maps popularity would fall through the floor. There no saying too that even for the best maps you could have a demo map as the tutorial for people to try before buying the full or upgraded game. As far a donating thats already possible since the arcade allow you to add in links to website and you could just put the donation link instead. Kinda need to a think a bit more realistic there.
Here's some information regarding myself on this topic.
1) Have I made money developing for SC2?
Answer: No, I haven't.
2) Have people made money developing for S2?
Answer: Yes. I've personally payed out at least $300 dollars so far to various people. Even Nebuli is one of my payee's.
3) Are there ways to make money developing on SC2?
Answer: Yes, there's plenty of ways. Don't get self-indulged in your own project and go scouting for the needy like me who are willing to pay.
Also, I'd like to notate a few things. I've spent a severe amount of time on my project, over 1000 hours, but I do not know the exact time. I have only a few hours a week to work on it now (2-4) so progress has halted almost completely. It's been in development for 18 years. I've created over a thousand assets for my project. Mostly images, but hey, it's an asset. Utilizing built-in assets or not should not warrant whether you should be able to make money or not. The quality of your work (which is strongly influenced by custom assets) is what matters. Being able to theme your project around the currently built-in assets is a sure-fired way to get your project noticed and at least enjoyable.
In my honest opinion Krauser1, if you are looking to make money - seek elsewhere. If you still insist on SC2 as your area you'd like to invest in, then have at it, no one is to stop you. If you're curious about the Arcade, then take your chances at it, and perhaps Blizzard will give you the exact Marketplace you're dreaming of. You never know.
There are some neigh-sayers here about the marketplace (if it lets you sell maps). There are those who believe no one will buy a map unless it's of superior, outstanding, godly quality. There are those that believe you don't deserve money even if you did make such a map, or any map. There are those who think that people will not go beyond the norm or try something new. There are those who think that it's too risky to try something new. Well, krauser1, I'm here to tell you that those are just opinions. Form your own opinion on the matter and just think - would we have ever made it to the moon if we were afraid of trying something new? Who would have thought that so many people would buy apps on phones? (Now people are gonna come and make arguments about these last 2 statements - because everyone's a genius on this forum and knows every idea that makes billions of dollars)
Guys, i think you all right from your own points of view (In fact, a very different points of view, surprisingly). But it all ends up on the fact that someone wants it, some don't. Question was - HOW or at least WHEN?
While i dont think maps should ever cost anything, i dont agree with what many are saying that there havnt been games worth paying even a dollar for which i would imagine is what these would sell for. Ive played Mafia more than ive played games i paid 60 dollars for.
A major obstacle to paid map content is a) you can always extract content from the mpq files - which means someone can copy ip very easily. Who came first? Who was the original creator? b) if you read the legal documentation: blizzard owns everything you upload to their servers. Why should you get paid for something that is blizzards property? After the DOTA thingy, I think they made changes to the legal documents surrounding the custom scene. c) I don't think the arcade has a player base that is loyal & rich enough to pay for content. If you want these players: learn how to make stuff in unity and launch a website with games or make unity-games for Iphones.
How much of this do you think the Blizzard Arcade has as a platform? Sure: its a part of the windows & mac gaming platform - but I would still argue that its very, very small. You will never be able to make any significant amount of money out of this. Live with it (or move on (or get a job at Blizzard)).
I'm personally looking forward to the new social features: making a group with fans for my maps will be nice :) Even if there is only one fan its a "social capital" that i appreciate much.
I actually agree with Tainted, maps should always be free, it would create too many problems if maps were paid including the fact that it would become unfair to older map makers.
To force people to pay money on a map that were previously free is unfair and to exempt older makes from being paid for is unfair, so either way someone gets screwed.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Blizzard made it clear that 95% of the maps out there wouldn't even qualify for marketplace. On the other hand, if somebody wants to pay for a map that had thousands of man-hours & custom assets put into it, they should be able to have that option. Why deny a feature that some people will use? Capitalism will take care of everything. If a map maker asks for money for a map that's not worth it, then nobody will play his map. But if he is successful, then good for him and the player-base. That was hard.
Personally, the only thing I would pay for is a high-quality campaign, which require far more work & assets than a single battle.net map.
But it all ends up on the fact that someone wants it, some don't. Question was - HOW or at least WHEN?
As for when, I wouldn't count on it any time soon - For all we know, they project for paid maps may already be scrapped as they shipped the Arcade without it (Arcade was supposed to be the marketplace. Apparently it isn't). With HotS coming out, they just got done with quite a large amount of features and changes, so I'm guessing that if work had been started on the actual marketplace it would have been recently, which means it won't be done anytime soon. Most major features like it would be released with the HotS patch. I can't think of any other major patches coming before LotV, apart from maybe Blizzard Allstars being finished, and that could take quite a while as well, seeing as they're trying to create a game that is supposed to compete with League of Legends and DotA2, and iirc they were trying to make it work as a standalone as well so that people would not need sc2 to play it (But it will be running on the same engine and servers if I understood it right) which means they'll be working on an entire game launcher before in addition to the actual map before it's ready.
If you want to make money by making games, I really advise against using sc2 - Grab UDK or Unity or whatever. You won't be able to live off of an sc2 map. If you just want to make a map, but also earn some money on the side, sc2 would work (No money guaranteed though - The playerbase for custom maps is relatively small compared to any other platform)
The amount of money mapmakers can have depends on overall amount of people playing arcade. The player base blizz have for now can provide little donation income for 5-10 most popular maps. Question: can blizz attract more players to play arcade? Probably not. For now, most of ppl, who care about RTS, do have a copy of sc2.
Although, I heard that All Stars thing will be standalone, but based on sc2 engline game. I also heard that dota-like games have alot of players in it. Probably more than sc2 arcade have. So, there are 3 questions: 1. will allstars be compartible with sc2 arcade. And 2. wIll allstars include sc2 dependencies to play arcade (third question is how to get laid). If first and second questions have positive answer, than allstars may bring lots of new players to the arcade. Which will probably increase the amount of maps which have a chance to recieve some donations.
While we would all like some money, the world does not pay you for your hobbies
And you think this is a good thing? That's an idea you'd want to enforce? Fuck trying to make everyone's life more fun, it's way better if we force eachother into jobs we don't give a shit about? For the sake of... I dunno, showing off how tough we are by being able to cope with that kind of shit?
Actually usually, if someone knows they can get paid to more to do the bare minimum rather then take a risk and do something innovative they will never improve, Take COD as an example... Battlefield? mario? They never do anything new, because they don't know HOW people will react. you might see better polished versions of older maps sure. but your not going to see anything new, and greater.
You're literally argueing against a free market economy here. Don't get me wrong, I see your point and agree with very much with a lot of that. What you're missing though, is that none of this applies to the SC2 map marketplace. The problem with games like COD and Mario is one where contracts and brand popularity are literally keeping the cash-stream afloat. This kind of stagnation only occurs a long way into a market system. There are no contracts in the SC2 Map Marketplace, nor are there likely to be any. And as for brand popularity - do you honestly think someone's going to create a map style that will become the new Mario and ends up so popular that they'll continue to make money off of it through rehashes WITHIN the SC2 engine years later?
The Map Marketplace would literally be Steam-within-StarCraft 2. If you want to stand by your point, you're also going to need to argue that the rise of Steam has reduced the diversity and quality of games being developed and made it impossible for 'hobbyists' to get their games marketed/played. Are you really gonna try to do that? You might as well try to argue that Obama is in fact a white female.
And you think this is a good thing? That's an idea you'd want to enforce? Fuck trying to make everyone's life more fun, it's way better if we force eachother into jobs we don't give a shit about? For the sake of... I dunno, showing off how tough we are by being able to cope with that kind of shit?
You're literally argueing against a free market economy here. Don't get me wrong, I see your point and agree with very much with a lot of that. What you're missing though, is that none of this applies to the SC2 map marketplace. The problem with games like COD and Mario is one where contracts and brand popularity are literally keeping the cash-stream afloat. This kind of stagnation only occurs a long way into a market system. There are no contracts in the SC2 Map Marketplace, nor are there likely to be any. And as for brand popularity - do you honestly think someone's going to create a map style that will become the new Mario and ends up so popular that they'll continue to make money off of it through rehashes WITHIN the SC2 engine years later?
The Map Marketplace would literally be Steam-within-StarCraft 2. If you want to stand by your point, you're also going to need to argue that the rise of Steam has reduced the diversity and quality of games being developed and made it impossible for 'hobbyists' to get their games marketed/played. Are you really gonna try to do that? You might as well try to argue that Obama is in fact a white female.
Blizzard already sort of confirmed that the map marketplace won't come out anytime soon. Their current target is around LotV or beyond.
I personally think that this is way to late, but they had different priorities and battle.net lacked alot of features that were more important for most players, so those had to be implemented first.
I guess their original plan wasn't to release the map market that late, but well, it is what it is now.
:)), I keep debating it because blizzard sees this... and I will not let it go unopposed thats really all :) all of their arguements have been posted 100x too :P
@Taintedwisp: Go
Tainted, I'm sorry to say this, but if Blizzard were to see what you're saying, they would have. And even if they see it, it doesn't mean that they'll care. Really, you just keep saying the same stuff and annoying lots of people, but you're never really going to accomplish anything by doing so.
nor will I allow it to go unopposed.
@Nebuli2: Go
I actually agree with Tainted, maps should always be free, it would create too many problems if maps were paid including the fact that it would become unfair to older map makers.
To force people to pay money on a map that were previously free is unfair and to exempt older makes from being paid for is unfair, so either way someone gets screwed.
While we would all like some money, the world does not pay you for your hobbies and that's what map making is. No one is forcing you to work for free on a map so it is really your choice to work on it because you want to. The satisfaction of making a good map and being proud of it should be enough, this is why things like Wikipedia and Linux exists, because people want something to make them feel accomplished and that is more valuable than money.
@LitePollution9: Go
Way better said then I have been saying it :P. I still think a donate button would be a Win/Win for everyone involved. That way your paid if people like what you made and want to support it, but your not paying to have an advantage or to play.
I'll hope. Don't close the thread before HOTS release, just in case :)
If someone knows that his work is paid, he tries harder to improve his skills. If person tries to do the work for free, at the output we get something that is done for free. Think this through.
Okay, man... i think you refuse to see a big picture here.
@krauser1: Go
Actually usually, if someone knows they can get paid to more to do the bare minimum rather then take a risk and do something innovative they will never improve, Take COD as an example... Battlefield? mario? They never do anything new, because they don't know HOW people will react. you might see better polished versions of older maps sure. but your not going to see anything new, and greater.
@Taintedwisp: Go
This is only one of all the aspects of what might be. Again, you don't see a big picture here.
@krauser1: Go
I have to agree of both of these points having actually been a paid mapper myself. While yes working slowly and paying attention to every little detail when taking your time on a free project is one way of putting out extreme quality worked, paid work is just another route laid out through the price/quality/speed triangle; the only difference is with paid work there is more pressure to get the work done on a faster schedule and still producing high quality maps that meet the expectation of the person who is (or may not be ) paying out. So basically if you want a high quality map thats free expect to sacrifice time (and a lot of it) otherwise if you want its fast expect it to cost.
As far as the big picture, Tainted is far over reacting which isn't unusual. Last time i check leagues of legions was just as free to play yet they make a killing . Even with the marketplace not every map is going to cost as he suggest; the average mapper can't even produce quality works that would get enough income to warrant it and the maps popularity would fall through the floor. There no saying too that even for the best maps you could have a demo map as the tutorial for people to try before buying the full or upgraded game. As far a donating thats already possible since the arcade allow you to add in links to website and you could just put the donation link instead. Kinda need to a think a bit more realistic there.
Here's some information regarding myself on this topic.
1) Have I made money developing for SC2? Answer: No, I haven't.
2) Have people made money developing for S2? Answer: Yes. I've personally payed out at least $300 dollars so far to various people. Even Nebuli is one of my payee's.
3) Are there ways to make money developing on SC2? Answer: Yes, there's plenty of ways. Don't get self-indulged in your own project and go scouting for the needy like me who are willing to pay.
Also, I'd like to notate a few things. I've spent a severe amount of time on my project, over 1000 hours, but I do not know the exact time. I have only a few hours a week to work on it now (2-4) so progress has halted almost completely. It's been in development for 18 years. I've created over a thousand assets for my project. Mostly images, but hey, it's an asset. Utilizing built-in assets or not should not warrant whether you should be able to make money or not. The quality of your work (which is strongly influenced by custom assets) is what matters. Being able to theme your project around the currently built-in assets is a sure-fired way to get your project noticed and at least enjoyable.
In my honest opinion Krauser1, if you are looking to make money - seek elsewhere. If you still insist on SC2 as your area you'd like to invest in, then have at it, no one is to stop you. If you're curious about the Arcade, then take your chances at it, and perhaps Blizzard will give you the exact Marketplace you're dreaming of. You never know.
There are some neigh-sayers here about the marketplace (if it lets you sell maps). There are those who believe no one will buy a map unless it's of superior, outstanding, godly quality. There are those that believe you don't deserve money even if you did make such a map, or any map. There are those who think that people will not go beyond the norm or try something new. There are those who think that it's too risky to try something new. Well, krauser1, I'm here to tell you that those are just opinions. Form your own opinion on the matter and just think - would we have ever made it to the moon if we were afraid of trying something new? Who would have thought that so many people would buy apps on phones? (Now people are gonna come and make arguments about these last 2 statements - because everyone's a genius on this forum and knows every idea that makes billions of dollars)
EDIT: 18 months, not 18 years :)
Yeah, this kinda rock my world there) Thanks for the clarification.
For real?
Hey, Blizzard guys! Come on, release the Market Place allready!
Guys, i think you all right from your own points of view (In fact, a very different points of view, surprisingly). But it all ends up on the fact that someone wants it, some don't. Question was - HOW or at least WHEN?
While i dont think maps should ever cost anything, i dont agree with what many are saying that there havnt been games worth paying even a dollar for which i would imagine is what these would sell for. Ive played Mafia more than ive played games i paid 60 dollars for.
A built in donate button would be enough.
A major obstacle to paid map content is a) you can always extract content from the mpq files - which means someone can copy ip very easily. Who came first? Who was the original creator? b) if you read the legal documentation: blizzard owns everything you upload to their servers. Why should you get paid for something that is blizzards property? After the DOTA thingy, I think they made changes to the legal documents surrounding the custom scene. c) I don't think the arcade has a player base that is loyal & rich enough to pay for content. If you want these players: learn how to make stuff in unity and launch a website with games or make unity-games for Iphones.
Have a look at this graph: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-12-05/the-evolution-of-the-video-game
How much of this do you think the Blizzard Arcade has as a platform? Sure: its a part of the windows & mac gaming platform - but I would still argue that its very, very small. You will never be able to make any significant amount of money out of this. Live with it (or move on (or get a job at Blizzard)).
I'm personally looking forward to the new social features: making a group with fans for my maps will be nice :) Even if there is only one fan its a "social capital" that i appreciate much.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Blizzard made it clear that 95% of the maps out there wouldn't even qualify for marketplace. On the other hand, if somebody wants to pay for a map that had thousands of man-hours & custom assets put into it, they should be able to have that option. Why deny a feature that some people will use? Capitalism will take care of everything. If a map maker asks for money for a map that's not worth it, then nobody will play his map. But if he is successful, then good for him and the player-base. That was hard.
Personally, the only thing I would pay for is a high-quality campaign, which require far more work & assets than a single battle.net map.
As for when, I wouldn't count on it any time soon - For all we know, they project for paid maps may already be scrapped as they shipped the Arcade without it (Arcade was supposed to be the marketplace. Apparently it isn't). With HotS coming out, they just got done with quite a large amount of features and changes, so I'm guessing that if work had been started on the actual marketplace it would have been recently, which means it won't be done anytime soon. Most major features like it would be released with the HotS patch. I can't think of any other major patches coming before LotV, apart from maybe Blizzard Allstars being finished, and that could take quite a while as well, seeing as they're trying to create a game that is supposed to compete with League of Legends and DotA2, and iirc they were trying to make it work as a standalone as well so that people would not need sc2 to play it (But it will be running on the same engine and servers if I understood it right) which means they'll be working on an entire game launcher before in addition to the actual map before it's ready.
If you want to make money by making games, I really advise against using sc2 - Grab UDK or Unity or whatever. You won't be able to live off of an sc2 map. If you just want to make a map, but also earn some money on the side, sc2 would work (No money guaranteed though - The playerbase for custom maps is relatively small compared to any other platform)
The amount of money mapmakers can have depends on overall amount of people playing arcade. The player base blizz have for now can provide little donation income for 5-10 most popular maps. Question: can blizz attract more players to play arcade? Probably not. For now, most of ppl, who care about RTS, do have a copy of sc2.
Although, I heard that All Stars thing will be standalone, but based on sc2 engline game. I also heard that dota-like games have alot of players in it. Probably more than sc2 arcade have. So, there are 3 questions: 1. will allstars be compartible with sc2 arcade. And 2. wIll allstars include sc2 dependencies to play arcade (third question is how to get laid). If first and second questions have positive answer, than allstars may bring lots of new players to the arcade. Which will probably increase the amount of maps which have a chance to recieve some donations.
And you think this is a good thing? That's an idea you'd want to enforce? Fuck trying to make everyone's life more fun, it's way better if we force eachother into jobs we don't give a shit about? For the sake of... I dunno, showing off how tough we are by being able to cope with that kind of shit?
You're literally argueing against a free market economy here. Don't get me wrong, I see your point and agree with very much with a lot of that. What you're missing though, is that none of this applies to the SC2 map marketplace. The problem with games like COD and Mario is one where contracts and brand popularity are literally keeping the cash-stream afloat. This kind of stagnation only occurs a long way into a market system. There are no contracts in the SC2 Map Marketplace, nor are there likely to be any. And as for brand popularity - do you honestly think someone's going to create a map style that will become the new Mario and ends up so popular that they'll continue to make money off of it through rehashes WITHIN the SC2 engine years later?
The Map Marketplace would literally be Steam-within-StarCraft 2. If you want to stand by your point, you're also going to need to argue that the rise of Steam has reduced the diversity and quality of games being developed and made it impossible for 'hobbyists' to get their games marketed/played. Are you really gonna try to do that? You might as well try to argue that Obama is in fact a white female.
Same thoughts. 100% agreed.
Blizzard already sort of confirmed that the map marketplace won't come out anytime soon. Their current target is around LotV or beyond.
I personally think that this is way to late, but they had different priorities and battle.net lacked alot of features that were more important for most players, so those had to be implemented first.
I guess their original plan wasn't to release the map market that late, but well, it is what it is now.