Omfg why compare War3 High quality or medium with Low Graphics, Low Textures SC2?? SC2 requirements also come from the physics, the meshes that are higher poly, many other factors. Not to say the shaders, lights particles, lighting these are what overload the graphics and thus require more PC resources.
When you say 'it's cartoony' you really must be referring to Low settings. I don't know, do I need to show you terrain to see how 'cartoony' it looks cause if all you see is Low settings, then yes it's actually more like SC1 than war3 meaning even pooorer.
Also I am still waiting to get an example of a game where there is some cutting edge graphics being developed with let's say the specs of SC2 since according to you graphics are the same and yet the requirements are much higher - really how does this happen
Or is the whole whining 'I can barely play Low on my wooden syste3m' well then work and buy a new one.
The reason why you don't see many of the forum features is because this is not a normal forum as per Curse. I am sure, if it were, it would have all the features including the subscriptions to threads and such.
Some people believe that's not a positive aspect of the graphics. Quoting shamanyouranus, «Starcraft 2 has the perfect balance of over-complexity and dated technology to attract absolutely no modelers or artists». See "StarCraft 2 Modeling, why is it failing". The specific post I quoted is #9.
I disagree on processor, and I am saying it when my graphics were failing as I couldn't start the game for 3 months - Feb, March, April unil I just went for a new notebook to run the game at ultra.
" The graphics are very simple and cartoony, while being processor intensive and using little-understood formats."
So how are the graphics older tech? They are not scanned from reality (like some attempts to do so I've seen), cartoony - aha the key word for why I disagree they are processor intensive, or is he trying to say graphics intensive? Either way, they are not cartoony but yeah they look like toys than real tanks or soldiers (I think it's the design, the texture maps make them realistic enough) - see War3, WoW for cartoony but their are not cinematic either. So let's make the graphics less cartoony at the same time not processor demanding - increase shaders make it a movie and less demanding, how does this happen??? :)))))
I've seen Dota 2, LoL cinemtics, so examples - give me examples of how this is done already in other games and is not in SC2. Am I missing some very high tech combo of low technical specs, better graphics and more realism done in some newer games? To tell ya, even Empire Earth 1, that I partially used in War3 and SC2 looks more realistic to me with the smaller units - tanks and such like actual units than SC2 - even with their poorer quality textures. It has to do with design, they look like toys, but I would not say 'cartoony'.
And if you tell me that the cinematics are cartoony - like look at the HotS intro.. what else do you expect that other companies already do? To me this is pointless whining about graphics but I agree the units look like toys, though again, I don't know what they should look like...
And for being more complex (the quote from shamanyouranus) - how do you make a more compelx game, higher poly models, using multiple texture maps and being as easy as war3 - then complain why so hard? :))) Again pointless whining about graphics and models - like I said, I would love things to be as easy as war3 but harder game, more complex graphics, models, - ADAPT, how would one have more features and remain as easy to make as war3?? I don't get this!
-
Dreamhack - I do not even watch it anymore, I am talking about WCS, WCS Season 1 did bring a hell lot of people watching the games of Innovation and MVP, Season 2 too probably even more interesting when the champion is down after this hhurr hurr destroy Terran Mech once again (Hellbats, Tanks, Thors) with yet another nerf of Hellbat.
It comes from everything being simpler to make - from models to maps and the editor, you think I wouldn't love to have a Magos tool to do the effects and everything for me and not Art Tools, then Actors and tons of data? I don't see a way Blizz could have done this as simple with more complex game, one has to simply move on. I am still curious to know HOW this would have happened. But yeah I dont deny that SC2 has less of everything than war3 and will probably never reach the success of war3 and BW partially to being pain to make but it's still a very good replacement and not a reason for me to stay at War3... just cause it's harder.
Oh and, as you can see Blizz still recover from their mistakes, adding more and more features, from BNet featurdes to editor's I think giving it a few more years is definitely in place - problem is there is a delay in all these being served, they could have been added in the beginning.
Yeah I felt like using it for decals, all they had to do is add the fields for Actors - any kind of actors, then you could pitch or roll units and doodads and models.
Omg 512x512 really? Finally. Though idk, if you make a city like I will, won't there be way too big and the map too heavy if you populate it too much.
And if they could add pitch and roll angles without Site Ops would be the best, like you can scale from the placed objects and from the Data, same should be for pitch/roll
Quote:
Added File - Export Balance functionality
Can somehow balance changes eb applied to campaign/story dependencies?
I don't know.. comparing north korea with all the stuff that Blizz gives you, seems 'a little bit' out of comparison. Like I said, those features that Blizz brought back - Stats, regions, etc were needed, demanding more from Blizz about mapmaking and arcade is also good.
I was correctong Fockewulf on some untrue things he said about esports.
What's wrong with the community? I don't know much the Arcade community, but the ladder players are overall MUCH more mature than I've seen for 7 years in War3.
My point about giving it a time is that - you guys see War3 as it is now and compare it to SC2 only in the third year. War3 was not so huge in resources and mapmaking back in 2004 (yeah it still had resources), it even started 2-3 years after the expansion (2005-2007 when it really started growing in resources, Dota and stuff). Also SC2's stuff harder to make because with more options comes more difficulty, same for 3D models that are much harder.
If the more options and more difficult to make is the reason for less activity, well how do you get more options and features and make it easier? Plus Blizzard made all these features - Global play etc just recently. Ofc their mistake scared lots of the people off the game but now with all these features having been brough back, the game has yet to be tested in activity and all.
I get your point since Nova is a Ghost and doesn't make sense to send a squad of Spectres. But this recolored Ghost is actually looking like Umojan Shadowguard, right? So even if it is to imitate a Ghost, it is actually what the Shadow Guard looks like, yes?
So picturesque! The best! It's looking so good and less cartoony, I thought this was a real photo! Great job I love snow terrain and this is just awesome!! Do keep the map pls, I might need to have the exact same scenery of snowy mountains, maybe in the near future! Pls share if you are gonna delete it.
◦Doodads now support Pitch and Roll properties for three-dimensional rotation.
Great news! But can this be done also for actors without having to use Site Operations? and for Units? Right now I can;t think of any cases I needed to change Pitch of doodads.
That's what makes this place so good, focusing on mapmaking means more pro, no trolling, no crappy pointless dumb threads as it happens when there are offtopic threads, so let it stay that way. Of course the layout and using the forum is horrible - right now even when I click EDIT more than once, it remembers the text before it was edited, so if I edit my post several times, I have to copy paste all previous times the text or it will be lost... really lame forum system but great focus on sc2 and great community.
Or maybe think it that way - SC2 is only 3.5 years old, War3 is what - 11 years old (that's right RoC was 2001-2002). Are you another of these "hiveworkshop' members? Please keep this out, the world doesn't revolve around 'Hiveworkshop' - it is currently the biggest war3 mapmaking community site although the way it goes there it's starting to look like a place for trolling and progrmaming and barely any modding (i've been there since 2004 and until I couldn't stand the BS there anymore, just fyi).
The comparison is totally irrelevant, the majority of players are Asians even Phillipinoo - guys who in most cases didn't even buy the game.. (such an example to give - some who do war 3 - noobs and bad at everything), we all know Phillpines likes Dota, China likes War3, overall War3 is more spread while SC has traditions in Korea and people just get SCARED to play vs Koreans. So yes, SCBW was a complex game that is normal to have less community when people weren't good at it. And thus with War3 being more widely spread in Asia, that's where your numbers are comign from at hive workshop.
Also because SC2 is more complex game for modding:
- the editor
- the models - making one probably takes as much as making 3 on war3 and if you have the tools...
Yep, Blizz went behind in that but most of it is NATURAL - more features means more difficulty, means harder to make, means less people will engage, means less community, does NOT mean Blizz fail only - most of it comes from the complexity.
And when will you people stop comparing a 10+ year old game with a 3 year old one, that just starts developing, i said it, give it another 4 years then we will talk - Yeah I know the game will never reach the numbers of War3 but WHO CARES?
Just crybabies, that's what Fockewolf is - any normal person just shuts up and deals with the tools, the editor, the bnet they have..
don't take yourself so seriously, MANY have contribution to get some features back, you are saying it as if it wasn't you, Blizzard wouldn't listen, Blizzard should only listen to you...
Personally I was for bringing the Stats back, I did express these things were missing but I am not THE HERO, I know many others got a lot more engaged and asked for the same, the overall demand of people returned those, not because 'Look at me I did it!'
I don't know why people are worried that randoms don't come - what's the point of having someone come, then never come again - even if you had hundreds of these? Isn't it exactly the people who stay here and with the editor - their number to increase?
Fully agree with you and yet even though I am/was a player mostly, I strongly support giving mapmaking also a lot more love than now.
SC2Mapster to me seems very active place, at least I thank those members here who actively help in threads regarding the editor's data, triggers, modeling, anything.
I do not think it is dying when I see threads being bumped down to page 2 in a matter of few days. I observed the same last summer.
It's a matter of +- 1-2-3-4 places up and down and not -10 as those who complain make it look.
I cannot see the later one, but WCS Season 1 was in June, a lot of people watched WCS Season 1 Grand Finals which were in June.. Besides, I am not arguing that for now SC2 does not have the success that War3 and Broodwar had but let's give the game at leasy 7 years (another 4 years) before we judge it.
I am arguing Fockewolf's weak points that are based on not knowing much about it and speak like an average Reddit poster.
Honestly I am fine with the way the Editor is (and I am not even knowing it very well), the way esports is, it looks to me only casuals complain. Serious players just shut up and play or watch or make maps...
Regardless of what graphics "improvements" they have made, the fact is that those changes were largely useless. They've been wasted on a game that isn't growing.
StarCraft 2 should have as large or bigger player base at this point as when it was released. Its player base, for the most part, have already been playing some blizzard RTS for at least 3 straight years.
StarCraft 2 was supposed to be a golden age that never happened. They are focusing on E-Sports. Besides South Korea it isn't a safe investment. Furthermore in South Korea the E-Sports scene is a complete prop. The real reason it ever got that big has as much to do with shielding South Korea's youth from North Korean communist propaganda.
The viewer base for the largest tournament was under 150k viewers. Still a good number, but not a growing viewer base.
Why say "imporvements" in quotes? So according to you they haven't made any graphic improvements from WoW? yay cartoony graphics? They made perfect balance between not too high technical specs and awesome graphics - fact.
Ofc the Bnet 2.0 killed lots of the player base, you have forgotten that I criticized Bnet 2.0 in the early state like anyone else back in 2010.
Quote:
The real reason it ever got that big has as much to do with shielding South Korea's youth from North Korean communist propaganda.
Now that's nonsense and it shows how little you know about esports and its history. It started the interest in Broodwar became big and Koreans turned it into a national sport. According to your logic China started Warcraft and the interest in it and making it a national sport? Also because of some anti-enemy propaganda? Why it started doesn't matter, what matters is the EFFECT - now you have hundreds of zombified people who have HUGE interest in Starcraft and you cannot deny this is what keeps the game there - well you know nothing of Broodwar's succes it seems.
It got big because it was a new thing that emerged there in Korea, never seen before, people were like 'Wow that's so cool - playing online, outplaying, tournaments, money prizes' - let's make this a sport.
Did you know that esports was born in Korea? - thanks to it occuring there, you see the LoL and Dota 2 and Warcraft III and any other online esports.
Yes there are problems in Arcade and mapmaking, yes SC2 isn't the sucess that Broodwar and War3 had, maybe Blizzard aren't as good as they were, so what?
Are you telling me that there aren't many people watching WCS, Dreamhack, IEM, MLG, many others? Not enough success outside Korea? What do you know of the European scene - not as much as in Asia but there it is there as well. NA region has the weakest players but I can say esports have grown pretty well there as well.
Lots of players SERIOUS ones transitioned from WC3 to SC2, me included. Stephano, Kas, Happy, elfi, Naniwa, Sase, Demuslim are only few of the names that I can think of now.
Why not see where SC2 is in popularity?
Top 3 or Top 5, Dota 2 or LoL among them, either way esports has been increasing compared to years ago because there are now lots of streams, better organization with years of experience, professional casters - something that barely existed years ago
And this is one of if not the best RTS besides Warcraft 3... any serious player is here. QQers who think of reasons to whine will always complain, then again no one should pay attention to such. Like REDDIT - a place for clueless morons.
Please don't talk when you don't know anything about esports.
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@FenixKissKerrigan: Go
Omfg why compare War3 High quality or medium with Low Graphics, Low Textures SC2?? SC2 requirements also come from the physics, the meshes that are higher poly, many other factors. Not to say the shaders, lights particles, lighting these are what overload the graphics and thus require more PC resources.
When you say 'it's cartoony' you really must be referring to Low settings. I don't know, do I need to show you terrain to see how 'cartoony' it looks cause if all you see is Low settings, then yes it's actually more like SC1 than war3 meaning even pooorer.
Also I am still waiting to get an example of a game where there is some cutting edge graphics being developed with let's say the specs of SC2 since according to you graphics are the same and yet the requirements are much higher - really how does this happen
Or is the whole whining 'I can barely play Low on my wooden syste3m' well then work and buy a new one.
0
@missile17: Go
The reason why you don't see many of the forum features is because this is not a normal forum as per Curse. I am sure, if it were, it would have all the features including the subscriptions to threads and such.
0
I disagree on processor, and I am saying it when my graphics were failing as I couldn't start the game for 3 months - Feb, March, April unil I just went for a new notebook to run the game at ultra.
" The graphics are very simple and cartoony, while being processor intensive and using little-understood formats."
So how are the graphics older tech? They are not scanned from reality (like some attempts to do so I've seen), cartoony - aha the key word for why I disagree they are processor intensive, or is he trying to say graphics intensive? Either way, they are not cartoony but yeah they look like toys than real tanks or soldiers (I think it's the design, the texture maps make them realistic enough) - see War3, WoW for cartoony but their are not cinematic either. So let's make the graphics less cartoony at the same time not processor demanding - increase shaders make it a movie and less demanding, how does this happen??? :)))))
I've seen Dota 2, LoL cinemtics, so examples - give me examples of how this is done already in other games and is not in SC2. Am I missing some very high tech combo of low technical specs, better graphics and more realism done in some newer games? To tell ya, even Empire Earth 1, that I partially used in War3 and SC2 looks more realistic to me with the smaller units - tanks and such like actual units than SC2 - even with their poorer quality textures. It has to do with design, they look like toys, but I would not say 'cartoony'.
And if you tell me that the cinematics are cartoony - like look at the HotS intro.. what else do you expect that other companies already do? To me this is pointless whining about graphics but I agree the units look like toys, though again, I don't know what they should look like...
And for being more complex (the quote from shamanyouranus) - how do you make a more compelx game, higher poly models, using multiple texture maps and being as easy as war3 - then complain why so hard? :))) Again pointless whining about graphics and models - like I said, I would love things to be as easy as war3 but harder game, more complex graphics, models, - ADAPT, how would one have more features and remain as easy to make as war3?? I don't get this!
-Dreamhack - I do not even watch it anymore, I am talking about WCS, WCS Season 1 did bring a hell lot of people watching the games of Innovation and MVP, Season 2 too probably even more interesting when the champion is down after this hhurr hurr destroy Terran Mech once again (Hellbats, Tanks, Thors) with yet another nerf of Hellbat.
@Mozared: Go
It comes from everything being simpler to make - from models to maps and the editor, you think I wouldn't love to have a Magos tool to do the effects and everything for me and not Art Tools, then Actors and tons of data? I don't see a way Blizz could have done this as simple with more complex game, one has to simply move on. I am still curious to know HOW this would have happened. But yeah I dont deny that SC2 has less of everything than war3 and will probably never reach the success of war3 and BW partially to being pain to make but it's still a very good replacement and not a reason for me to stay at War3... just cause it's harder.
Oh and, as you can see Blizz still recover from their mistakes, adding more and more features, from BNet featurdes to editor's I think giving it a few more years is definitely in place - problem is there is a delay in all these being served, they could have been added in the beginning.
0
@zorbotron: Go
Yeah I felt like using it for decals, all they had to do is add the fields for Actors - any kind of actors, then you could pitch or roll units and doodads and models.
0
@DeltaCadimus: Go
Omg 512x512 really? Finally. Though idk, if you make a city like I will, won't there be way too big and the map too heavy if you populate it too much.
And if they could add pitch and roll angles without Site Ops would be the best, like you can scale from the placed objects and from the Data, same should be for pitch/roll
Can somehow balance changes eb applied to campaign/story dependencies?
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@FenixKissKerrigan: Go
I don't know.. comparing north korea with all the stuff that Blizz gives you, seems 'a little bit' out of comparison. Like I said, those features that Blizz brought back - Stats, regions, etc were needed, demanding more from Blizz about mapmaking and arcade is also good.
I was correctong Fockewulf on some untrue things he said about esports.
@Charysmatic: Go
What's wrong with the community? I don't know much the Arcade community, but the ladder players are overall MUCH more mature than I've seen for 7 years in War3.
My point about giving it a time is that - you guys see War3 as it is now and compare it to SC2 only in the third year. War3 was not so huge in resources and mapmaking back in 2004 (yeah it still had resources), it even started 2-3 years after the expansion (2005-2007 when it really started growing in resources, Dota and stuff). Also SC2's stuff harder to make because with more options comes more difficulty, same for 3D models that are much harder.
If the more options and more difficult to make is the reason for less activity, well how do you get more options and features and make it easier? Plus Blizzard made all these features - Global play etc just recently. Ofc their mistake scared lots of the people off the game but now with all these features having been brough back, the game has yet to be tested in activity and all.
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@SoulFilcher: Go
I get your point since Nova is a Ghost and doesn't make sense to send a squad of Spectres. But this recolored Ghost is actually looking like Umojan Shadowguard, right? So even if it is to imitate a Ghost, it is actually what the Shadow Guard looks like, yes?
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@TheHolyArk: Go
The lighting seems a little strange to me but the terrain you've made is awesome.
@joecab: Go
Looks quite good, well done with the road and buildings, realistically made.
@sgtnoobkilla: Go
So picturesque! The best! It's looking so good and less cartoony, I thought this was a real photo! Great job I love snow terrain and this is just awesome!! Do keep the map pls, I might need to have the exact same scenery of snowy mountains, maybe in the near future! Pls share if you are gonna delete it.
0
Great news! But can this be done also for actors without having to use Site Operations? and for Units? Right now I can;t think of any cases I needed to change Pitch of doodads.
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@lemmy734: Go
That's what makes this place so good, focusing on mapmaking means more pro, no trolling, no crappy pointless dumb threads as it happens when there are offtopic threads, so let it stay that way. Of course the layout and using the forum is horrible - right now even when I click EDIT more than once, it remembers the text before it was edited, so if I edit my post several times, I have to copy paste all previous times the text or it will be lost... really lame forum system but great focus on sc2 and great community.
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@FenixKissKerrigan: Go
Or maybe think it that way - SC2 is only 3.5 years old, War3 is what - 11 years old (that's right RoC was 2001-2002). Are you another of these "hiveworkshop' members? Please keep this out, the world doesn't revolve around 'Hiveworkshop' - it is currently the biggest war3 mapmaking community site although the way it goes there it's starting to look like a place for trolling and progrmaming and barely any modding (i've been there since 2004 and until I couldn't stand the BS there anymore, just fyi).
The comparison is totally irrelevant, the majority of players are Asians even Phillipinoo - guys who in most cases didn't even buy the game.. (such an example to give - some who do war 3 - noobs and bad at everything), we all know Phillpines likes Dota, China likes War3, overall War3 is more spread while SC has traditions in Korea and people just get SCARED to play vs Koreans. So yes, SCBW was a complex game that is normal to have less community when people weren't good at it. And thus with War3 being more widely spread in Asia, that's where your numbers are comign from at hive workshop.
Also because SC2 is more complex game for modding:
- the editor
- the models - making one probably takes as much as making 3 on war3 and if you have the tools...
Yep, Blizz went behind in that but most of it is NATURAL - more features means more difficulty, means harder to make, means less people will engage, means less community, does NOT mean Blizz fail only - most of it comes from the complexity.
And when will you people stop comparing a 10+ year old game with a 3 year old one, that just starts developing, i said it, give it another 4 years then we will talk - Yeah I know the game will never reach the numbers of War3 but WHO CARES?
Just crybabies, that's what Fockewolf is - any normal person just shuts up and deals with the tools, the editor, the bnet they have..
@FockeWulf: Go
don't take yourself so seriously, MANY have contribution to get some features back, you are saying it as if it wasn't you, Blizzard wouldn't listen, Blizzard should only listen to you...
Personally I was for bringing the Stats back, I did express these things were missing but I am not THE HERO, I know many others got a lot more engaged and asked for the same, the overall demand of people returned those, not because 'Look at me I did it!'
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@urzaiz87: Go
'Commited' is the right word.
-I don't know why people are worried that randoms don't come - what's the point of having someone come, then never come again - even if you had hundreds of these? Isn't it exactly the people who stay here and with the editor - their number to increase?
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@ScorpSCII: Go
Fully agree with you and yet even though I am/was a player mostly, I strongly support giving mapmaking also a lot more love than now.
SC2Mapster to me seems very active place, at least I thank those members here who actively help in threads regarding the editor's data, triggers, modeling, anything.
I do not think it is dying when I see threads being bumped down to page 2 in a matter of few days. I observed the same last summer.
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@Mozared: Go
It's a matter of +- 1-2-3-4 places up and down and not -10 as those who complain make it look.
I cannot see the later one, but WCS Season 1 was in June, a lot of people watched WCS Season 1 Grand Finals which were in June.. Besides, I am not arguing that for now SC2 does not have the success that War3 and Broodwar had but let's give the game at leasy 7 years (another 4 years) before we judge it.
I am arguing Fockewolf's weak points that are based on not knowing much about it and speak like an average Reddit poster.
Honestly I am fine with the way the Editor is (and I am not even knowing it very well), the way esports is, it looks to me only casuals complain. Serious players just shut up and play or watch or make maps...
0
Why say "imporvements" in quotes? So according to you they haven't made any graphic improvements from WoW? yay cartoony graphics? They made perfect balance between not too high technical specs and awesome graphics - fact.
Ofc the Bnet 2.0 killed lots of the player base, you have forgotten that I criticized Bnet 2.0 in the early state like anyone else back in 2010.
Now that's nonsense and it shows how little you know about esports and its history. It started the interest in Broodwar became big and Koreans turned it into a national sport. According to your logic China started Warcraft and the interest in it and making it a national sport? Also because of some anti-enemy propaganda? Why it started doesn't matter, what matters is the EFFECT - now you have hundreds of zombified people who have HUGE interest in Starcraft and you cannot deny this is what keeps the game there - well you know nothing of Broodwar's succes it seems.
It got big because it was a new thing that emerged there in Korea, never seen before, people were like 'Wow that's so cool - playing online, outplaying, tournaments, money prizes' - let's make this a sport.
Did you know that esports was born in Korea? - thanks to it occuring there, you see the LoL and Dota 2 and Warcraft III and any other online esports.
Yes there are problems in Arcade and mapmaking, yes SC2 isn't the sucess that Broodwar and War3 had, maybe Blizzard aren't as good as they were, so what?
Are you telling me that there aren't many people watching WCS, Dreamhack, IEM, MLG, many others? Not enough success outside Korea? What do you know of the European scene - not as much as in Asia but there it is there as well. NA region has the weakest players but I can say esports have grown pretty well there as well.
Lots of players SERIOUS ones transitioned from WC3 to SC2, me included. Stephano, Kas, Happy, elfi, Naniwa, Sase, Demuslim are only few of the names that I can think of now.
Why not see where SC2 is in popularity?
Top 3 or Top 5, Dota 2 or LoL among them, either way esports has been increasing compared to years ago because there are now lots of streams, better organization with years of experience, professional casters - something that barely existed years ago
And this is one of if not the best RTS besides Warcraft 3... any serious player is here. QQers who think of reasons to whine will always complain, then again no one should pay attention to such. Like REDDIT - a place for clueless morons.
Please don't talk when you don't know anything about esports.