Howdy, recently I've been working on a mini campaign, for fun. Data and triggers aside (which I'm learning as I make it!), I would love it if you guys could give a review and/or feedback on the in-progress terrain of this mission.
Again (this is important), besides the obviously needed touchups on the current triggers, the map (as you will see) is not nearly done. I merely would like feedback on what is done already. And hey, you could even try the map out!
Posted screenies of the map, ordered by appearance. Do note, however, that the map is not meant for showcase; the environment was designed around being viewed in-game, with fog of war.
UNIMPORTANT:
If you'd like a brief rundown on the story, basically you (Zeratul) have just escaped your Protoss lab on Kaldir, which is under attack by the Zerg. However, due to your hasty departure, you chose a damaged ship that was missing it's psi-shield power cell. Thus, the bare ship couldn't take the extreme temperatures of the planet, and crashed. You must now find your way out of the Kaldir ice valleys, and find other Protoss stragglers.
(Disclamer)
Me and Hobbidude, who has kindly volunteered to help me with the technical side of the map, are currently working on this project together.
Note: Images here are outdated. scroll down to find more recent screenshots. (Updated screenshots do not include updates of the areas seen below, as the changes to them were small. Open the map file to see them.
I'm not good at reviews but the terrain was very nice, I don't have anything negative about it that comes to mind. I loved the nifty details when I played it, when the terrain interacts it makes me happy :)
Hopefully someone else can give some more thorough feedback. I just wanted to give heads up that this is good stuff.
How many missions do you plan this campaign to be? Looking forward to this.
Not entirely sure. Like I said, I'm learning triggering as I go along, and am going to need lots of help (Trigger forum). I guess I'll keep making missions until I run out of steam, but right now just finishing a single project (this) is what I'm aiming for.
And thank you for the kind words. I've updated the file; some newer stuff at the end.
Haha, alright; I'll add screenies to my post. However, I do want to make some reminders:
-As stated in the post, I didn't make this as a showcase map; the aesthetics are designed for viewing in-game, with fog of war (surprisingly important).
-I had trouble coming up with what I thought looked 'best', so I just took a screenshot of each area. I'll number the pictures in the order they appear.
It's pretty good work; I looked at it a lot in editor and played through it a couple times. I really, really like the tour that path leads you through the map as its very fun, unique and natural looking. My two biggest issues terraining wise however are the empty area left of the creaking ice floor and rocked ramp as well as the second last matriarch "arena".
For the first part I found the ice floor to be far too obvious especially with nothing on the other side and seeable rocks to the left which really detracted from the feeling i thought you were going; I think you need to make the other side of the floor more inviting such as putting a small toss base that you would hope you can use but in actuality can't in order to suck the player into trying to cross. You would also need to put some invisible los blocker before the rocked ramp to hide it more or maybe some more doodad camo to not make it so obvious. I would then also move the ramp up and face the bottom left more so that it more like your path becomes blocked so you have to "double back" which adds to the story. Add some nice wash out effects and rumbling for when the rocks and floor breaks to make a smoother transition than what it is right now.
For the second area, by the 2nd last matriarch I really wanted the ice cave opening to be a lot larger, almost palace like, especially as it blends really well with the nice mountain you've made. I also wanted something like a small ice rock doodad with a footprint in the centre of the arena just to break it up some. Other than that i think you just need some more small detailing like small rocks, etc around the edges of the paths all along.
Other than that the biggest issue of course was the gameplay and interaction with the environment which for the moments does seem to take a bit away but I'd be happy to help; im also an advanced triggerer willing to teach if your ever interested. I think you need to add things the force the player to move along in an almost hurried fashion to really give the pronounced feeling that your escaping for your lives; this could be done through pathing that closed behind you or an invincible army that forces to move to and collapse some ice rock to keep them back. The other issue of course is to make the micro more difficult. The zealots atm are basically invincible next to the ursadon and even without that there is no point in ever use or protect the probes especially as all 5 are required and the only ones given and you can just leave them at the beginning, clear the way and then let the sail through after. Even if you had to change the units stats just for this mission i would maybe do something like starting with zeratul and 10 probes that you would have to micro to keep alive and save half of during like the first two battles, then maybe find two frozen zealots to come aid you, maybe a health restore from an old artifact along the way, and then some micro blink stalkers, or ally guards to add to help near the end.
The other think i thought might be cool is if you made a really small single file hidden path around the left of the middle mountain with some hidden destructible rocks, so that any curious player might find the shortcut and skip a few enemies along that wonderful circling edge (maybe make the valley deep too with some deforming).
Again i'd be happy to help out on the this one or explain in more detail if you like. Hope the feedback helps and let me know.
Thank you very much for this review! I really appreciate the feedback, but I think I may need a little more detail for:
-In general more to improve the collapsing ice area. Also, what do you mean by a washout effect?
-Sorry if I misunderstood you, but the Probes achievement is only failed if you lose all of your probes. I was planning to make it that you need the probes to give to a small Protoss base near the outpost (Uncontrollable by you), so they can begin operating it again, to hold out until aid comes to rescue the Kaldir Protoss.
-I like your idea of the frozen Zealot rescues, but unfortunately I dont really know how to do this (keep in mind I'd want an ice actor on the unit like it was in the campaign).
-I also would like more detail in the hidden passage. I like this idea; would definitely spice up the map.
Again, thank you. Also, I would love for you to teach me triggering things, as I'm by no means a super duper triggerer, so all knowledge is valuable.
EDIT: Is this what you meant by making the player double back? Also fixed up the terrain in general (images).
EDIT 2: Also, terrain-wise, this map is pretty much 50% done, besides overall tweaks to it. I want to improve the triggers in the area that already exists before I work on the other half. This is because, while you won't control a base in this whole mission, the mission feel will be quite different in the second half than it was in the first (expect possible Zerg).
Big update! terrain is pretty much done in the entire map!
It actually has been terrain-ed for about 2 days now, but I've been working on triggers with the help of hobbitdude as well (these are far from complete).
Anyway, here are screens of the new areas.
2 IMPORTANT notes:
1: The terrain you see in the screenshots are not necessarily 100% accurate to how 'good' the terrain really is, as there are things that interact as you play (this isn't complete, but the fact still stands).
2: While I'm uploading the new map file, it isn't really functional on the technical side past the point where you reach the Protoss outpost (first primary objective). there are some random triggers and transitions in place for the 2nd half of the map, but nothing nearly as complete as what's in part one.
Feel free to boot up the map and play, but you should really just quit the game after rescuing the outpost.
It look very nice but there is a bug in the gameplay.
When I start the mission it first show the units but then it fades out and the whole map becomes black. There is also an error message.
EDIT: According to the error message there is an error in the "unitsetupoutsidecave" trigger
EDIT2: Sorry for medling but I think I found the error. In the trigger "Cave entrance" there is a "map initialization" event. When I removed that the mission worked well.
The Mission
It where a fun and interesting mission. Very nice terrain, and I really liked the small interactive puzzles on what to do next during the obstacles. This mission actually has a certain professional feel to it, it's straight forward and not overly complicated but it is thoroughly well done, both terrain and encounters. There where some parts which could have been emphasized a bit more, like the never-ending stream of Ursadon at the ending, but I think you could solve that with some transmission or something.
Looking forward to the finished version :)
When making transmissions there should be a name for the character over the text. The one transmission in the mission did not have that.
Alright, so I've finally had a chance to take a good look at your terrain. I've got some comments.
First off, what you have right here is very well done. I'm about to give some critique so you can make it even better, but don't take my comments as a crack on your terrain - it looks fairly solid as it is and is impressive either way.
That said, here is my main gripe: everything looks the same. Do me a favour and take a quick look at all of your screenshots that aren't Protoss bases. How many of those are there that do not feature a winding snowy path leading up a bunch of ice-spiked cliffs? You've already somewhat adressed this problem by making the Yeti area different from the Zerg area in textures. However, there's simply too much of it. When I checked out the first few screenshots of the Yeti area my thoughts were "This is pretty cool, there's some nice height play and it reminds me slightly of the Caradhras scene from lord of the rings". Then, as I went on looking through the pictures, I felt like nearly your entire map looked like that and the feeling lost its magic.
For a campaign-style level, you'll want to make sure that every area has something new to offer to the player in terms of looks. Every time the player goes up or down a ramp or through a 'choke', the area behind it needs to look different from the area before. Not too different; it is definitely a good thing if the entire map feels like it's taking place on one planet, but definitely different.
Blizzard does an excellent job of this in their campaign, if you want examples. Take the very first Mar Sara level from Wings of Liberty: the cinematic starts you off in a semi-tree'd area where a Dropship takes you across a broken bridge. As you follow the dusty and empty road you'll quickly come onto a few cars and some cacti on the side. If you then walk on past the checkpoint you arrive at a bit of a clearing where you have to go up a ramp, after which you slowly encounter more and more buildings until you're in a fully concrete area with several different sub-areas. From that point on you'll see various mixes of dirty and semi-foliaged areas with concrete/populated areas until, in the level's climax, you arrive at a Dominion 'base' that holds the Radar Tower you need to destroy.
Do you see what Blizzard did here? That's how you should be approaching your maps. Every area will have to look similar in terms of 'setting' and 'tileset', but every area will also tell its own story, so to speak.
So by now you might be asking yourself "But Mozared, how do I approach this 'differentiation', then?". I can give you three tips for doing this:
A) The easiest way to approach differentiation: rip off Blizzard. Take a look at Blizzard campaign levels that use the same tileset as you (mainly the Kaldir levels). See how they approach differentiation. It shouldn't be that hard to steal their ideas here: "Oh, look, they used a frozen lake as eyecandy - I can fit that in!".
B) Scroll trough the doodad list and look for some snow doodads. You make great use of the snowy cliff edge, icicle and skeleton doodads, but there's more doodads you can use for uniqueness.
C) Use your own imagination or steal from things you've seen before. Like the Caradhras scene I mentioned earlier. Instead of blocking off a small path with high ground on either side, maybe try using some low ground on one side to see if you can resemble a similar effect. Or do the exact opposite for an area further up ahead and put the low ground on the other side. I know you can do this because I've already seen it in your map (the start and whole Yeti bit up to the bottom left ice bridge is fairly differentiated, and I noticed some interesting doodad play at the low ground near the beacon area) - the trick is just to apply it everywhere.
On a last note: while this may sound like it's a lot of work, it really doesn't need to be. If it is, you're doing something wrong. The lay-out of your map seems fine and your paths and positioned units can all stay pretty much as they are. It's the inaccessible areas that you need to fiddle with or add doodads to.
Hope to hear your thoughts and see the improved terrain - this map has the potential to be Blizzlike.
Also, funny enough, I was in fact planning to put a transmission in that yeti stream area, for the very reason you mentioned. And yes, no worries, the transmissions will have portraits and names.
Thank you very much for this review! I'll be sure to put this to as much use as i can. keep in mind, with the triggers so far from completion, I've definitely got time to fiddle with the environment. Also, I have indeed recently been looking for somewhere to put ice lake / ice wave doodads; when used right, they can look amazing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I do terrain stuff.
...
And in a Starcraft haiku,
...
That's all I can do!
No worries! Glad to help out. You're going the right way, this kind of stuff is exactly what I'm suggesting. Be sure to keep us updated as you're working on it :)
Howdy, recently I've been working on a mini campaign, for fun. Data and triggers aside (which I'm learning as I make it!), I would love it if you guys could give a review and/or feedback on the in-progress terrain of this mission.
Again (this is important), besides the obviously needed touchups on the current triggers, the map (as you will see) is not nearly done. I merely would like feedback on what is done already. And hey, you could even try the map out!
Posted screenies of the map, ordered by appearance. Do note, however, that the map is not meant for showcase; the environment was designed around being viewed in-game, with fog of war.
UNIMPORTANT:
If you'd like a brief rundown on the story, basically you (Zeratul) have just escaped your Protoss lab on Kaldir, which is under attack by the Zerg. However, due to your hasty departure, you chose a damaged ship that was missing it's psi-shield power cell. Thus, the bare ship couldn't take the extreme temperatures of the planet, and crashed. You must now find your way out of the Kaldir ice valleys, and find other Protoss stragglers.
(Disclamer)
Me and Hobbidude, who has kindly volunteered to help me with the technical side of the map, are currently working on this project together.
Note: Images here are outdated. scroll down to find more recent screenshots. (Updated screenshots do not include updates of the areas seen below, as the changes to them were small. Open the map file to see them.
@HydraMannequin: Go
I'm not good at reviews but the terrain was very nice, I don't have anything negative about it that comes to mind. I loved the nifty details when I played it, when the terrain interacts it makes me happy :)
Hopefully someone else can give some more thorough feedback. I just wanted to give heads up that this is good stuff.
How many missions do you plan this campaign to be? Looking forward to this.
Not entirely sure. Like I said, I'm learning triggering as I go along, and am going to need lots of help (Trigger forum). I guess I'll keep making missions until I run out of steam, but right now just finishing a single project (this) is what I'm aiming for.
And thank you for the kind words. I've updated the file; some newer stuff at the end.
Take some screenshots anyway, I don't have the editor on my lappy :D
For decision what to take screenies of: show us what you consider your best in terrain. What you'd want to show off.
nice map! I hope i get to see more of this map.
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@Mozared: Go
Haha, alright; I'll add screenies to my post. However, I do want to make some reminders:
-As stated in the post, I didn't make this as a showcase map; the aesthetics are designed for viewing in-game, with fog of war (surprisingly important).
-I had trouble coming up with what I thought looked 'best', so I just took a screenshot of each area. I'll number the pictures in the order they appear.
It's pretty good work; I looked at it a lot in editor and played through it a couple times. I really, really like the tour that path leads you through the map as its very fun, unique and natural looking. My two biggest issues terraining wise however are the empty area left of the creaking ice floor and rocked ramp as well as the second last matriarch "arena".
For the first part I found the ice floor to be far too obvious especially with nothing on the other side and seeable rocks to the left which really detracted from the feeling i thought you were going; I think you need to make the other side of the floor more inviting such as putting a small toss base that you would hope you can use but in actuality can't in order to suck the player into trying to cross. You would also need to put some invisible los blocker before the rocked ramp to hide it more or maybe some more doodad camo to not make it so obvious. I would then also move the ramp up and face the bottom left more so that it more like your path becomes blocked so you have to "double back" which adds to the story. Add some nice wash out effects and rumbling for when the rocks and floor breaks to make a smoother transition than what it is right now.
For the second area, by the 2nd last matriarch I really wanted the ice cave opening to be a lot larger, almost palace like, especially as it blends really well with the nice mountain you've made. I also wanted something like a small ice rock doodad with a footprint in the centre of the arena just to break it up some. Other than that i think you just need some more small detailing like small rocks, etc around the edges of the paths all along.
Other than that the biggest issue of course was the gameplay and interaction with the environment which for the moments does seem to take a bit away but I'd be happy to help; im also an advanced triggerer willing to teach if your ever interested. I think you need to add things the force the player to move along in an almost hurried fashion to really give the pronounced feeling that your escaping for your lives; this could be done through pathing that closed behind you or an invincible army that forces to move to and collapse some ice rock to keep them back. The other issue of course is to make the micro more difficult. The zealots atm are basically invincible next to the ursadon and even without that there is no point in ever use or protect the probes especially as all 5 are required and the only ones given and you can just leave them at the beginning, clear the way and then let the sail through after. Even if you had to change the units stats just for this mission i would maybe do something like starting with zeratul and 10 probes that you would have to micro to keep alive and save half of during like the first two battles, then maybe find two frozen zealots to come aid you, maybe a health restore from an old artifact along the way, and then some micro blink stalkers, or ally guards to add to help near the end.
The other think i thought might be cool is if you made a really small single file hidden path around the left of the middle mountain with some hidden destructible rocks, so that any curious player might find the shortcut and skip a few enemies along that wonderful circling edge (maybe make the valley deep too with some deforming).
Again i'd be happy to help out on the this one or explain in more detail if you like. Hope the feedback helps and let me know.
@hobbidude: Go
Thank you very much for this review! I really appreciate the feedback, but I think I may need a little more detail for:
-In general more to improve the collapsing ice area. Also, what do you mean by a washout effect?
-Sorry if I misunderstood you, but the Probes achievement is only failed if you lose all of your probes. I was planning to make it that you need the probes to give to a small Protoss base near the outpost (Uncontrollable by you), so they can begin operating it again, to hold out until aid comes to rescue the Kaldir Protoss.
-I like your idea of the frozen Zealot rescues, but unfortunately I dont really know how to do this (keep in mind I'd want an ice actor on the unit like it was in the campaign).
-I also would like more detail in the hidden passage. I like this idea; would definitely spice up the map.
Again, thank you. Also, I would love for you to teach me triggering things, as I'm by no means a super duper triggerer, so all knowledge is valuable.
EDIT: Is this what you meant by making the player double back? Also fixed up the terrain in general (images).
EDIT 2: Also, terrain-wise, this map is pretty much 50% done, besides overall tweaks to it. I want to improve the triggers in the area that already exists before I work on the other half. This is because, while you won't control a base in this whole mission, the mission feel will be quite different in the second half than it was in the first (expect possible Zerg).
(Disclamer)
Me and Hobbidude, who has kindly volunteered to help me with the technical side of the map, are currently working on this project together.
Big update! terrain is pretty much done in the entire map!
It actually has been terrain-ed for about 2 days now, but I've been working on triggers with the help of hobbitdude as well (these are far from complete).
Anyway, here are screens of the new areas.
2 IMPORTANT notes:
1: The terrain you see in the screenshots are not necessarily 100% accurate to how 'good' the terrain really is, as there are things that interact as you play (this isn't complete, but the fact still stands).
2: While I'm uploading the new map file, it isn't really functional on the technical side past the point where you reach the Protoss outpost (first primary objective). there are some random triggers and transitions in place for the 2nd half of the map, but nothing nearly as complete as what's in part one. Feel free to boot up the map and play, but you should really just quit the game after rescuing the outpost.
(More images below this post)
2nd set of images
2nd last set (lots of map!)
Last pics.
It look very nice but there is a bug in the gameplay.
When I start the mission it first show the units but then it fades out and the whole map becomes black. There is also an error message.
EDIT: According to the error message there is an error in the "unitsetupoutsidecave" trigger
EDIT2: Sorry for medling but I think I found the error. In the trigger "Cave entrance" there is a "map initialization" event. When I removed that the mission worked well.
The Mission
It where a fun and interesting mission. Very nice terrain, and I really liked the small interactive puzzles on what to do next during the obstacles. This mission actually has a certain professional feel to it, it's straight forward and not overly complicated but it is thoroughly well done, both terrain and encounters. There where some parts which could have been emphasized a bit more, like the never-ending stream of Ursadon at the ending, but I think you could solve that with some transmission or something.
Looking forward to the finished version :)
When making transmissions there should be a name for the character over the text. The one transmission in the mission did not have that.
Alright, so I've finally had a chance to take a good look at your terrain. I've got some comments.
First off, what you have right here is very well done. I'm about to give some critique so you can make it even better, but don't take my comments as a crack on your terrain - it looks fairly solid as it is and is impressive either way.
That said, here is my main gripe: everything looks the same. Do me a favour and take a quick look at all of your screenshots that aren't Protoss bases. How many of those are there that do not feature a winding snowy path leading up a bunch of ice-spiked cliffs? You've already somewhat adressed this problem by making the Yeti area different from the Zerg area in textures. However, there's simply too much of it. When I checked out the first few screenshots of the Yeti area my thoughts were "This is pretty cool, there's some nice height play and it reminds me slightly of the Caradhras scene from lord of the rings". Then, as I went on looking through the pictures, I felt like nearly your entire map looked like that and the feeling lost its magic.
For a campaign-style level, you'll want to make sure that every area has something new to offer to the player in terms of looks. Every time the player goes up or down a ramp or through a 'choke', the area behind it needs to look different from the area before. Not too different; it is definitely a good thing if the entire map feels like it's taking place on one planet, but definitely different.
Blizzard does an excellent job of this in their campaign, if you want examples. Take the very first Mar Sara level from Wings of Liberty: the cinematic starts you off in a semi-tree'd area where a Dropship takes you across a broken bridge. As you follow the dusty and empty road you'll quickly come onto a few cars and some cacti on the side. If you then walk on past the checkpoint you arrive at a bit of a clearing where you have to go up a ramp, after which you slowly encounter more and more buildings until you're in a fully concrete area with several different sub-areas. From that point on you'll see various mixes of dirty and semi-foliaged areas with concrete/populated areas until, in the level's climax, you arrive at a Dominion 'base' that holds the Radar Tower you need to destroy.
Do you see what Blizzard did here? That's how you should be approaching your maps. Every area will have to look similar in terms of 'setting' and 'tileset', but every area will also tell its own story, so to speak.
So by now you might be asking yourself "But Mozared, how do I approach this 'differentiation', then?". I can give you three tips for doing this:
A) The easiest way to approach differentiation: rip off Blizzard. Take a look at Blizzard campaign levels that use the same tileset as you (mainly the Kaldir levels). See how they approach differentiation. It shouldn't be that hard to steal their ideas here: "Oh, look, they used a frozen lake as eyecandy - I can fit that in!".
B) Scroll trough the doodad list and look for some snow doodads. You make great use of the snowy cliff edge, icicle and skeleton doodads, but there's more doodads you can use for uniqueness.
C) Use your own imagination or steal from things you've seen before. Like the Caradhras scene I mentioned earlier. Instead of blocking off a small path with high ground on either side, maybe try using some low ground on one side to see if you can resemble a similar effect. Or do the exact opposite for an area further up ahead and put the low ground on the other side. I know you can do this because I've already seen it in your map (the start and whole Yeti bit up to the bottom left ice bridge is fairly differentiated, and I noticed some interesting doodad play at the low ground near the beacon area) - the trick is just to apply it everywhere.
On a last note: while this may sound like it's a lot of work, it really doesn't need to be. If it is, you're doing something wrong. The lay-out of your map seems fine and your paths and positioned units can all stay pretty much as they are. It's the inaccessible areas that you need to fiddle with or add doodads to.
Hope to hear your thoughts and see the improved terrain - this map has the potential to be Blizzlike.
@njordys: Go
Haha, thanks for pointing out that bug.
Also, funny enough, I was in fact planning to put a transmission in that yeti stream area, for the very reason you mentioned. And yes, no worries, the transmissions will have portraits and names.
@Mozared: Go
Thank you very much for this review! I'll be sure to put this to as much use as i can. keep in mind, with the triggers so far from completion, I've definitely got time to fiddle with the environment. Also, I have indeed recently been looking for somewhere to put ice lake / ice wave doodads; when used right, they can look amazing.
@Mozared: Go
Ok, here are a few ideas I whipped up in a few minutes. Not necessarily final renditions of the eye candies, but it's the idea anyhow.
Also added some omni lights to the underground area (darker) to make the details pop a little more.
@HydraMannequin: Go
No worries! Glad to help out. You're going the right way, this kind of stuff is exactly what I'm suggesting. Be sure to keep us updated as you're working on it :)
Added one more ice wave, just because i had the space, and i think it works.
Also (did this to the other ice waves as well), added some omni lights to the edges around the ice waves to pop the cliff details more.