The biggest deterrent in Dota for new players had nothing to do with the map itself, but the community. Any game you joined you would be kicked from if you had to download the map, and if you picked the wrong item or died too early you were immediately laughed at, or just banned from future games. The community as a whole was totally unwilling to teach new people how to play, and the few that were were hidden behind the mass of elitists that could care less. New players were bombarded with 40+ heroes and over 100 items to choose from, without an idea of what to do.
Back on topic though, this map sounds very promising.
The biggest deterrent in Dota for new players had nothing to do with the map itself, but the community. Any game you joined you would be kicked from if you had to download the map, and if you picked the wrong item or died too early you were immediately laughed at, or just banned from future games. The community as a whole was totally unwilling to teach new people how to play, and the few that were were hidden behind the mass of elitists that could care less. New players were bombarded with 40+ heroes and over 100 items to choose from, without an idea of what to do.
Back on topic though, this map sounds very promising.
Yes this is all related to DotA's high competitiveness, and I'm hoping that the "DotA clones" tries to solve this for Starcraft 2. As a DotA player myself I would hate to have a newbie in my team, just for the reason that the game involves so much team play, and if one player is noob, the whole game might be over.
However the argument that the new players has to learn items/heroes that you and BrotherLazz has been replying is just bad. This is just like any game. In Starcraft 2, you'll have to learn [all] units/structures, but also maps (with exceptions).
DotA created waay too many items and Heroes. The difference between a game like StarCraft and a game like DotA, StarCraft you can get into a couple of games and gradually figure things out on your own. DotA on the other hand... is like trying to find dry sand at the bottom of a lake. I had a buddy trying to teach me DotA and he kept saying "ok now go back to the merchants and purchase this item". 1 minute later. "What was the item called?" "xxxxx" "It's not here..." I never bothered playing DotA again after seeing how steep the learning curve is.
So no, DotA is not "just like any other game". In other games it's usually easy to figure it out. In DotA, if someone is holding your hand you can still be doing it wrong.
Yeah, finding items to buy was like finding Waldo, perhaps the item shop should have a section for atk or def items. Having more heroes doesn't bother me though.
For those who do not know Waldo, here:
Now try to find him here:
btw ,the link for batrider gave me a error, do i need mozilla?
Tactic, these are just suggestions, ideas, brainstorming, etc. I know that some ability may look overpowered but balancing will be done troughout the creation of the map. As for the energy hero, just think about terrorblade from dota that could swap his life with another hero. At first, it sound overpower but they added a little casting time, a % limit and a close range, etc. It's all about balance..
Although I don't have any really good ideas, I'm just giving my reactions to the ideas about the heroes that people thought about. These suggestions are ideas that could potentially be used to make dota sc2 more unique. I'm just hoping to see abilities that aren't exactly the same as the heroes from dota, perhaps a mixture would be interesting.
Queen Hero: X'ia the Birthmother
Type: Biological
Role: Damage/Support
Abilities:
Hatch: Allows the Birthmother to hatch the following player-controlled "minions". (Writing in brackets displays relative energy cost).
Level 1: Zergling: Hatches two. Approx 5 seconds. (Approx 25). ;
Level 4(?) Hydralisk: Hatches one. Approx 12 seconds. (Approx 45). ;
Level 7(?) Roach: Hatches one. Approx: 12 seconds. (Approx 55).
Burrow: Allows the Birthmother to burrow, protecting herself and her eggs.
Mother's Touch: Heals the target (minion, player etc.) of X% of their health. X increases with level.
Ultimate: Creates a blast of life energy, inflicting X damage to targets nearby and healing X/2 health to all allies nearby. X increases with skill levels.
@cocosoft: I know, only I don't see any problem with that. "Brood" is a word really starcraft-like. It's not like I came up with the name, though.
anyway, first hero:
Franco Tildon: The Furious Firebat
type: armored
use: damage
(unit=firebat)
Description:
Widely credited as the first fighting firebat, Tildon was previously a convicted mass murderer. After his recruit he became addicted to the volatile gases seeping into the operational compartment of his suit, which eventually damaged his synapses enough that he became a pyromaniac, only eager to burn and toast, loyal only to himself. He fights for the one who pays most.
Skillz:
Inferno Sweep: (Davion’s 1st skill) a fire burst that damages all enemies in front of him.
Mercygiver: By adjusting the pressure of his tubes, Tildon fires in Helion-style, both slowing and damaging the opponent.
<unknown>: (passive) Tildon uses more tubes simultaneously, increasing the damage he deals.
Eruption: (ulti) Going berserk, Tildon showers the area around him with volatile material, which he then sets aflame. Lots of damage and slow.
and check Tildon in Starcraft lore: he's got a couple nice quotes...
#563: The Remorseless Reaper (no way I ouldn't make my own Reaper hero ;) )
type: biological
use: I don't know, possibly take out towers, gank
Description: Usually the lone survivor of the Disruption And Harassment missions of his squad, #563 made himself a name as the longest-serving Reaper in Terran history. His mastery of the jetpack and the cliff-jumping ability it grants was a large factor of his longevity, along with a deadly pair of Gauss pistols.
DC-Charge: Reapers use these mine-like explosives to attack buildings or engage masses of enemies. Exceptional against static defenses. Upgrade = less cooldown
Flash-Bang Grenade: There are some tricks in being a Reaper, and one of them is flash-bangs. They blind everybody, foe and friend, and create a chaos Reapers thrive in.
Jetpack: (passive) (upgradable 2 times: one for climbing and one for jumping down cliffs). A Reaper’s trademark, the jetpack embodies Reaper mentality: the potential benefit outweighs the risks.
DAH Squad: (ulti) #563 calls upon colleagues to help him. Three of them appear (last level) and a Disruption And Harassment squad is at hand.
Balance could require the two Jetpack updates to be accessed in high levels.
Abilities: Furious Charge: Vyce uses his high-powered legs implants to gain massive speed, launching himself into the enemy. Vyce uses the "Zealot Charge" as well as inflicting extra damage and a short stun to the targetted enemy. Higher levels increase stun duration and damage inflicted.
Psionic Push: Vyce, having trained his mind over his many years of service, has gained the psionic abilities of a high templar. Vyce unleases a blast of force, knocking all nearby enemies back and causing a short stun. Higher levels decrease cooldown and increase duration of stun.
Masterful Technique: Vyce goes into a combat trance, increasing attack speed by 75% for 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, Vyce's attack speed is lowered by 50%. Levels increase attack speed during rage and reduce speed loss after rage.
Mirror Image: Vyce uses his psionic powers to create 2 artificial copies of himself. These copies do 35% regular damage. Copies will disappear after losing all health or after 30 seconds. Higher levels increase duration of copies.
Wrath: Vyce unleases all his fury and explodes into a ball of psionic energy (knocking back nearby enemies of course). In this form, Vyce inflicts 100% extra damage and is invincible, but after 15 seconds, transforms into a totally drained, nearly powerless version of himself for 45 seconds. After that Vyce will return to his original form, with the same health % as in his weak form. (Higher levels may increase duration of powered up form).
The biggest deterrent in Dota for new players had nothing to do with the map itself, but the community. Any game you joined you would be kicked from if you had to download the map, and if you picked the wrong item or died too early you were immediately laughed at, or just banned from future games. The community as a whole was totally unwilling to teach new people how to play, and the few that were were hidden behind the mass of elitists that could care less. New players were bombarded with 40+ heroes and over 100 items to choose from, without an idea of what to do.
Back on topic though, this map sounds very promising.
Agreed. But a game's community is a reflection of the gameplay. There was a reason why the community was so hardcore, because minor advantages early on were compounded throughout the game. You HAD to play at the top level to be competitive and not "feed" the other team. The gameplay mechanics of the game are why noobs were not welcome, DOTA could have been modified to be more inclusive to new players and not make them such a detriment to their team.
Bombard : Launches a "spore" at target location which explodes upon impact ( maybe 3 or 3.5 AOE, 300 to 350 in warcraft ). Deals average damage ( 100/175/250/325 ) and slows opponents ( 5/10/15/20 % ) over 5 second.
Root : Using his legs, the Corruptor can "root" himself in the ground, gaining more stability. Increases attack range (by 2/3/4/5 unit, 200 to 500 in warcraft), attack damage ( something like 10 per level ), Bombard damage ( % based, around 10 to 40 ) but cannot move and loses armor ( for not being able to move ).
Tunneling : The Corruptor can create a tunnel between him and a target point, allowing him to "blink" to that location over Distance/2.5 seconds (around 2 or 3 second). The Corruptor is then rooted and releases a gas cloud around him, dealing minor damage ( 50/100/150/200 ) and reduces armor ( depends on the armor system of the map ).
Corrupt (ULT) : The Corruptor infects the air around him with the Zerg virus, altering enemy units. Whenever a creeps dies in a low 4/medium 7/large 10 area, it has 7/14/21 % chance to revive as a broodling for 4/7/10 second. Also passively reduces movement/attack speed of enemy heroes by 5/10/15 %. Increases Tunneling landing damage by 50/100/150.
If the creeps are killed by Bombard, they have another 10% additional chance to be revive as broodlings
Unchained.Brute
Ultralisk(different coloration/size difference from ultra creep)
Type:Biological
Role:Tank
The Brute is an unstoppable living siege engine, the figurehead and vanguard of the Zerg Swarm. As the sole member of an incredibly powerful strain of ultralisk, the Brute has long struck terror into the hearts of its foes.
Skills:
Collision
The Brute rams its skull into a target, dealing damage, knocking it back a medium distance, and stunning it. Energy cost 130, cooldown 20, melee.
Level 1: 75 damage, stuns for 1 sec, knockback
Level 2: 125 damage, stuns for 1.75 sec, knockback
Level 3: 175 damage, stuns for 2.5 sec, knockback
Level 4: 225 damage, stuns for 3.25 sec, knockback
Hardened Chitin(passive)
The Brute's carapace, well over a yard thick, is known for its great toughness, far beyond that of many tanks and mechs.
Level 1: +10 armor
Level 2: +20 armor
Level 3: +30 armor
Level 4: +40 armor
Energized Metabolism(passive)
The Brute epitomizes the savage hunger and strength of the Zerg, rushing at its enemies with incredible speed.
Level 1: +0.1% movement speed
Level 2: +0.3% movement speed
Level 3: +0.5% movement speed
Level 4: +0.7% movement speed
Devour(ultimate)
The Brute, ever the more hungry, swallows an enemy whole, restoring its own Hit Points. Cannot target Heroes. Energy Cost 175, cooldown 30, melee.
Level 1: Restores hit points equal to 0.5% of Devoured unit's max hit points.
Level 2: Restores hit points equal to 0.8% of Devoured unit's max hit points.
Level 3: Restores hit points equal to 1.1% of Devoured unit's max hit points.
The stats of Unchained.Brute should focus on a high number of hit points, medium-low damage and armor, and lower attack speed and energy.
Isn't 0.7% is a little low? I would opt for something like 3 / 5 / 7 / 9 %. It would be a little more noticeable.
As for the ult, if a hero is targeted, it could do another effect, like a bleeding effect over X seconds that would slow by something like 15 / 25 / 35 %.
Overall, nice idea :P
And because its an Ultralisk, it could use his giant claws to hold an enemy or maybe two if they are in range and Constrict them, dealing medium damage, extra to armored cause they're less flexible or shit like that..
In my opinion, allowing the reaper to jump down cliffs can also be used to escape, therefore possibly be a bit unfair or overpowered.
http://www.dota-blog.com/2009/03/batrider-guide-dota-allstars-660.html
It's all about how you balance the reaper.
The biggest deterrent in Dota for new players had nothing to do with the map itself, but the community. Any game you joined you would be kicked from if you had to download the map, and if you picked the wrong item or died too early you were immediately laughed at, or just banned from future games. The community as a whole was totally unwilling to teach new people how to play, and the few that were were hidden behind the mass of elitists that could care less. New players were bombarded with 40+ heroes and over 100 items to choose from, without an idea of what to do.
Back on topic though, this map sounds very promising.
Yes this is all related to DotA's high competitiveness, and I'm hoping that the "DotA clones" tries to solve this for Starcraft 2. As a DotA player myself I would hate to have a newbie in my team, just for the reason that the game involves so much team play, and if one player is noob, the whole game might be over.
However the argument that the new players has to learn items/heroes that you and BrotherLazz has been replying is just bad. This is just like any game. In Starcraft 2, you'll have to learn [all] units/structures, but also maps (with exceptions).
DotA created waay too many items and Heroes. The difference between a game like StarCraft and a game like DotA, StarCraft you can get into a couple of games and gradually figure things out on your own. DotA on the other hand... is like trying to find dry sand at the bottom of a lake. I had a buddy trying to teach me DotA and he kept saying "ok now go back to the merchants and purchase this item". 1 minute later. "What was the item called?" "xxxxx" "It's not here..." I never bothered playing DotA again after seeing how steep the learning curve is.
So no, DotA is not "just like any other game". In other games it's usually easy to figure it out. In DotA, if someone is holding your hand you can still be doing it wrong.
Yeah, finding items to buy was like finding Waldo, perhaps the item shop should have a section for atk or def items. Having more heroes doesn't bother me though.
For those who do not know Waldo, here:
Now try to find him here:
btw ,the link for batrider gave me a error, do i need mozilla?
P.S. - Yay, found Waldo!! =D
Tactic, these are just suggestions, ideas, brainstorming, etc. I know that some ability may look overpowered but balancing will be done troughout the creation of the map. As for the energy hero, just think about terrorblade from dota that could swap his life with another hero. At first, it sound overpower but they added a little casting time, a % limit and a close range, etc. It's all about balance..
@ragoulette: Go
Although I don't have any really good ideas, I'm just giving my reactions to the ideas about the heroes that people thought about. These suggestions are ideas that could potentially be used to make dota sc2 more unique. I'm just hoping to see abilities that aren't exactly the same as the heroes from dota, perhaps a mixture would be interesting.
Queen Hero: X'ia the Birthmother Type: Biological Role: Damage/Support
Abilities: Hatch: Allows the Birthmother to hatch the following player-controlled "minions". (Writing in brackets displays relative energy cost). Level 1: Zergling: Hatches two. Approx 5 seconds. (Approx 25). ; Level 4(?) Hydralisk: Hatches one. Approx 12 seconds. (Approx 45). ; Level 7(?) Roach: Hatches one. Approx: 12 seconds. (Approx 55).
Burrow: Allows the Birthmother to burrow, protecting herself and her eggs.
Mother's Touch: Heals the target (minion, player etc.) of X% of their health. X increases with level.
Ultimate: Creates a blast of life energy, inflicting X damage to targets nearby and healing X/2 health to all allies nearby. X increases with skill levels.
Why not name it the Broodmother? I don't think anybody would mind, and it's really appropriate.
Not sure... But http://www.playdota.com/heroes/broodmother
@cocosoft: I know, only I don't see any problem with that. "Brood" is a word really starcraft-like. It's not like I came up with the name, though.
anyway, first hero:
Franco Tildon: The Furious Firebat
type: armored
use: damage
(unit=firebat)
Description: Widely credited as the first fighting firebat, Tildon was previously a convicted mass murderer. After his recruit he became addicted to the volatile gases seeping into the operational compartment of his suit, which eventually damaged his synapses enough that he became a pyromaniac, only eager to burn and toast, loyal only to himself. He fights for the one who pays most.
Skillz:
and check Tildon in Starcraft lore: he's got a couple nice quotes...
@galicae: Go
I really hope they're going to have it in sc2, extremely positive that they will make it uber. =D
I looked into one of his quotes, thought it was pretty cool(his name is Franko?).
"Fire washes the skin off the bone and and the sin off the soul. It cleans away the dirt. And my momma didn't raise herself no dirty boy."
- Franko Tildon
I think either would work, I was just was attempting to avoid a likeness to the previously mentioned spider.
I still think Broodmother is better.
Hero #2:
#563: The Remorseless Reaper (no way I ouldn't make my own Reaper hero ;) )
type: biological use: I don't know, possibly take out towers, gank
Description: Usually the lone survivor of the Disruption And Harassment missions of his squad, #563 made himself a name as the longest-serving Reaper in Terran history. His mastery of the jetpack and the cliff-jumping ability it grants was a large factor of his longevity, along with a deadly pair of Gauss pistols.
Balance could require the two Jetpack updates to be accessed in high levels.
Zealot Hero: Commandant Vyce Type: Psionic Role: Tank, Ganker
Abilities: Furious Charge: Vyce uses his high-powered legs implants to gain massive speed, launching himself into the enemy. Vyce uses the "Zealot Charge" as well as inflicting extra damage and a short stun to the targetted enemy. Higher levels increase stun duration and damage inflicted.
Psionic Push: Vyce, having trained his mind over his many years of service, has gained the psionic abilities of a high templar. Vyce unleases a blast of force, knocking all nearby enemies back and causing a short stun. Higher levels decrease cooldown and increase duration of stun.
Masterful Technique: Vyce goes into a combat trance, increasing attack speed by 75% for 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, Vyce's attack speed is lowered by 50%. Levels increase attack speed during rage and reduce speed loss after rage.
Mirror Image: Vyce uses his psionic powers to create 2 artificial copies of himself. These copies do 35% regular damage. Copies will disappear after losing all health or after 30 seconds. Higher levels increase duration of copies.
Wrath: Vyce unleases all his fury and explodes into a ball of psionic energy (knocking back nearby enemies of course). In this form, Vyce inflicts 100% extra damage and is invincible, but after 15 seconds, transforms into a totally drained, nearly powerless version of himself for 45 seconds. After that Vyce will return to his original form, with the same health % as in his weak form. (Higher levels may increase duration of powered up form).
Agreed. But a game's community is a reflection of the gameplay. There was a reason why the community was so hardcore, because minor advantages early on were compounded throughout the game. You HAD to play at the top level to be competitive and not "feed" the other team. The gameplay mechanics of the game are why noobs were not welcome, DOTA could have been modified to be more inclusive to new players and not make them such a detriment to their team.
Name : Corruptor
Model : Spore Crawler (Uproot)
Type : Biological
Role : Nuker/Support
Needs balance but could be funny :D
A suggestion for a pure tank hero:
Unchained.Brute
Ultralisk(different coloration/size difference from ultra creep)
Type:Biological
Role:Tank
The Brute is an unstoppable living siege engine, the figurehead and vanguard of the Zerg Swarm. As the sole member of an incredibly powerful strain of ultralisk, the Brute has long struck terror into the hearts of its foes.
Skills:
Collision
The Brute rams its skull into a target, dealing damage, knocking it back a medium distance, and stunning it. Energy cost 130, cooldown 20, melee.
Level 1: 75 damage, stuns for 1 sec, knockback
Level 2: 125 damage, stuns for 1.75 sec, knockback
Level 3: 175 damage, stuns for 2.5 sec, knockback
Level 4: 225 damage, stuns for 3.25 sec, knockback
Hardened Chitin(passive)
The Brute's carapace, well over a yard thick, is known for its great toughness, far beyond that of many tanks and mechs.
Level 1: +10 armor
Level 2: +20 armor
Level 3: +30 armor
Level 4: +40 armor
Energized Metabolism(passive)
The Brute epitomizes the savage hunger and strength of the Zerg, rushing at its enemies with incredible speed.
Level 1: +0.1% movement speed
Level 2: +0.3% movement speed
Level 3: +0.5% movement speed
Level 4: +0.7% movement speed
Devour(ultimate)
The Brute, ever the more hungry, swallows an enemy whole, restoring its own Hit Points. Cannot target Heroes. Energy Cost 175, cooldown 30, melee.
Level 1: Restores hit points equal to 0.5% of Devoured unit's max hit points.
Level 2: Restores hit points equal to 0.8% of Devoured unit's max hit points.
Level 3: Restores hit points equal to 1.1% of Devoured unit's max hit points.
The stats of Unchained.Brute should focus on a high number of hit points, medium-low damage and armor, and lower attack speed and energy.
Isn't 0.7% is a little low? I would opt for something like 3 / 5 / 7 / 9 %. It would be a little more noticeable.
As for the ult, if a hero is targeted, it could do another effect, like a bleeding effect over X seconds that would slow by something like 15 / 25 / 35 %.
Overall, nice idea :P
And because its an Ultralisk, it could use his giant claws to hold an enemy or maybe two if they are in range and Constrict them, dealing medium damage, extra to armored cause they're less flexible or shit like that..