@Photoloss: Go You're right, but what abilities would the Starbase have? And visually the morph would be terrible. At least if we use the Starbasr model avaiable from that korean site.
I want to give the Bio-Dome useful abilities so players could have it earlier. Suggestions?
@Kanitala: Go The Scourge was called Avenger in early beta versions. Yeah, that model, it needs the pipes and smoke replaced by engines and fire when moving. And in my opinion it needs something that looks more or less like a cockpit if it's going to be a small fighter ship.
For the Sloth you could start with the Tanker Truck or Flatbed and add cannons in front of it. But for the tank itself I don't know what to do.
Actually MULEs would fit thematically. Scanner sweep could also be justified, but possibly placed on another unit/structure.
Maybe you could attach "power cables" to nearby structures (idea taken from CraftCraft map), increasing production. Either big boni at a resource cost, or small ones, possibly even decreasing training costs.
Maybe some farmers dug up an ancient artifact which is now stored in the biodome? Could be used as an excuse to give them Mass Recall, Forcefields, a (much weaker) Energy Nova, summoning "guardian spirits" (drop pod ability), cloaking tech (monolith Null Shield) or a calldown for xelnaga watchtowers and similar implements.
@Photoloss: Go MULEs may fit, but they come from orbital platforms/satellites which is weird. Scanner Sweeps are also supposed to come from "above". I like your cable idea, I'll try and think of a good way to use it. Wouldn't the artifact excuse work way better for the Moebius Foundation? Why give the ultra-advanced alien technology to the rednecks?
@ARMofORION: Go Yeah, I know. I'm not sure how I could solve it.
MULEs could also be kept and maintained on-site in a mining colony. Huge waste of resources to call them in from orbit, and I don't think all Terran worlds that use them have that kind of orbital infrastructure (they certainly don't after the Zerg came through in WoL)
The artifact would work for Moebius too, but they already have the standard tech. The idea was that someone just stumbled upon it and accidently activated it, standard cheesy sci-fi plot. The colonists aren't only rednecks, they would also include dissident intellectuals like Hanson, some of which could be renowned archaeologists. The artifact should be a powerful one-off thing, while the Moebius Foundation lives and breathes alien tech, they actively work towards reverse-engineering it and applying/adapting it to existing technology.
Power cables: attaching costs resources or energy, cables can be disconnected for a refund and are left behind or destroyed when the structure lifts off, always destroyed if one of the 2 structures gets destroyed. There would have to be a limit on how many cables you can build/maintain so you can't just put them on everything in the lategame.
Be sure to check out the extension mod: Hots Custom Map support on NA and EU, Despite the name it greatly expands the roster of options for the default 3 races and is updated all the way to NCO.
@Photoloss: Go So you mean Colonists should have MULEs, but they don't come from orbit? And I thought the Miner unit would be able to replace them somehow.
I'm sticking to basic lore here, so no far-fetched excuses for protoss abilities in the Colonist tech tree.
@nolanstar: Go Yes, it's under discussion, right now I feel it doesn't have a specific role or it would overlap with the existing units. Why would Nomads need to repair themselves? In the next update they will be able to place Vigilant bots and Seismic Thumpers which already make them way more useful then they were.
I got an idea for colonists, the Cargo Truck unit by default would be a small transport able to hold only a few units, however it could be outfitted with different loads in the back, such as vespene canisters for a HE Kamikaze truck, or upgraded with the full close on the back area providing the truck with extra hp/armor.
The artifact isn't something you should add in and of itself. It's meant to serve as an excuse if a certain ability or mechanic would help gameplay, but there's no lore to back it up. For example I think they need increased mobility or the ability to force engagements, as most of their units are durable but slow, meaning an enemy could just retreat when outmatched, or employ vulnerable but heavy-hitting units behind wall-offs when defending to stop you in your tracks.
Miners could replace MULES, to be honest I had forgotten about them. Mainly because the drilling sound will drive you mad. (is that still in, or was it only in the old version?)
Nomads could be made to self-cast their repair ability or simply regenerate when out of combat. It would make them slightly more viable for solo missions as scratch damage wouldn't add up, but I don't see a real point to it either. The self-repair version could actually harm you if they're higher on the priority list. By the way, I once made a system for constructing turrets aboard the nomad, then dropping them. I'll attach a demo map in case you're interested, although I remember some bugs with the "drop" missile.
@rickmary: Go Please no more transport units for colonists, they already have 3 transports this is not the role they are lacking. I like the idea of a kamikaze truck, but since it carries vespene barrels I assume it would cost a lot of vespene. Maybe we could use the Tanker truck model instead, I like the yellow color on the construction vehicles ;-)
@Photoloss: Go If they need increased mobility let's think what could solve it, maybe balance the units' speed or what else?
Yeah that sound gets annoying pretty fast and its still in the game. I'll see if I can chenge or simply remove it.
I like your system for building turrets, but in a melee match this complexity isn't welcome. I wanted you guys to test the new Nomad abilities but I can't get the EU version updated. Tomorrow I'm going to update the NA version.
I don't think the colonists have to have more mobility, the hercules and other transports should be enough. The problem is that as a general theme many of their units are slow but durable, and deal low "burst damage", i.e. take some time to kill opponents. This leaves the enemy ample time to retreat, reposition or otherwise pick fights in their favor. The common solution to this is to have good "initiator units" to force an engagement on your terms: Tempests and siege tanks do this, if you don't go out and kill them they'll slowly eat up your entire army/base. Immortals, hallucinations, chargelots and the like serve a similar purpose, you can send them into an entrenched position to absorb the brunt of enemy fire while your army moves in, reducing the defender's advantage. Zerglings, chargelots and forcefields punish the enemy for retreating even if he escapes your main "deathball".
The colonists have none of these mechanics. The best they can do is send mohicans, which are inefficient fighters, or use low-orbit hercules, which requires T3.5 tech. Prisoners could serve as initiators, but I don't see a way to get them near enemy forces or walling structures to hack them. Sending APCs into a siege tank line is suicidal, maybe the sloth could fix that problem.
Some suggestions/bugs:
Prisoners should cost less but require more energy on their skills, or have a defensive ability. Also they don't benefit from armor upgrades atm.
Rebel molotovs target the ground. This makes them miss moving targets, by a wide margin due to the low missile speed. Make them target the unit (you'll have to change the mover too I guess)
Rebel looting is limited to 1 stack per race, which seems a bit low since all upgrades are defensive and they're still instagibbed by splash damage
Units inside APCs should be able to fire on the move, this will help with chasing down enemies. I'd also make the turret attack air, if only so an APC loaded with marines doesn't flee from air units (which currently prevents them from firing, easily costing you the battle)
Command bio-domes have a blank green selection image
With the goliath/thor removed they have very little anti-air, namely tauren marines and vikings. Vikings own any armored air unit, but they should get replaced too in the long run, and tauren marines are too slow to deal with phoenices, mutalisks and the like. Prisoner stun bombs help, but unlike psi storm they don't damage the enemies and the colonist units don't pack enough punch to take down the fighters while stunned.
Both mohicans and rebels are fragile anti-light ground units with splash damage, the difference in speed is the only thing that sets them apart. Mohican grenades also target the ground, making them terrible for worker harassment compared to hellions.
Transports fill up extremely quickly since rebels are worth half a proper unit. I would suggest just increasing capacity across the board. Mohicans being size 4 is also off, hellions are size 2. If you double all capacities tauren marines and mohicans should be size 4, for lesser increases they should be size 2.
APCs should be Massive for immunity to graviton and to mow down forcefields unless the spearhead role goes to the sloth
Please keep in mind I'm currently limited to theorycrafting, looking at the data in the editor and playing against the AI, and probably will be for quite some time. In addition to the EU problem I have a 100 kB/s? internet connection, which is barely enough to play online when noone else is using up bandwidth. I will try to keep out of finer balancing discussions, but if I don't feel free to remind me and disregard my advice.
@Photoloss: Go Thanks for all the thoughts. Even though I'd like to have those considerations tested in game some of them sound clear enough to force some changes prior any test. I'll try to get some of them in for the next update. Too bad I can't say we will have units such as the Sloth, so I can't make some of the decisions right now.
Prisoners were just thrown in to be a better replacement to Ghost than the previous Vigilant, which was basically a Terran Stalker. Without Cloak they can't fill the same role and I don't know what to do right now.
I can't simply change the Rebel's missile to target units. The mover was not made for it. The looting was meant to be limited to only 1 by race, if what they do is useless then I'll have to change the upgrades.
I can't go on increasing cargo sizes because the colonist units would be off the game's standards. I too feel the rebels shouldn't occupy 1 slot but there's no way around that, just like zerglings fit the same 1 slot. I know zerglings are stronger but still both are meant to be massed so as to be effective.
"Command bio-domes have a blank green selection image" you mean wireframe?
Prisoners: They die too quickly for their cost and have no survival skill (cloak, burrow), stun bombs aren't as gamechanging by themselves as psi storm. It's a very strong ability though, so there must be solid measures against massing them, as stunlocks aren't much fun. Maybe give them personal shields (SC1 def matrix type, not protoss shields) or allow them to cast from APCs (probably not good, makes them uncounterable)
Rebels: I know the mover doesn't support it. You can create a similar effect by starting with a "throw" phase (throw vector 45° upwards or so) and blending into a "homing" phase after a second or so. It looks wonky against fast-moving targets just like all other homing missiles but it guarantees the hit. I think it's necessary for both rebels and mohicans, because early game it's too easy to just dodge the molotovs entirely (and they don't deal massive damage to compensate either), and mohicans are crap at harassing because they can't hit moving workers, which is the main role of the hellion they replace.
The problem with looting is that the boni are small and defense-oriented, when any AoE attack kills a fully stocked rebel just as easily as a naked one. In a mixed army the rebels aren't the meatshields, so extra survivability doesn't help much. And the bonus is wasted entirely if you stick them in APCs.
Cargo sizes: Is there a reason for keeping standard sizes beside sticking to the standard? It might matter if someone mindcontrols a colonist transport, but MC on a capital ship/walker is still stronger. Also the standard only applies to medivacs (by the way, another modern high-tech unit the colonists should not have), hercules are campaign-only and thus not balanced and APCs never held combat units in the first place (and don't they fit 10 or so colonists in the campaign?); by your argument mohicans should definitely be size 2 as they have the same stats as hellions.
Command bio-domes have a blank image in the group selection interface, but show the proper wireframe when selected individually.
Can you please post a rough changelog, or at least say which factions/units were changed? With so many suggestions flying around and the NA-Mapster desync (most of the time, anyway) I'm losing track of which changes to test for. Oh and where's the HotS beta info, or did you mean "upcoming"?
@Photoloss: Go There are changes to the Colonists, mainly the new Nomad. I don't recall all the changes since last version but I believe I fixed the smaller bugs that were pointed here. Mohicans were changed to size 2 and APCs can target air.
Prisoner: Lots of things to change. I write down every suggestion so we will settle some ideas for this unit eventually.
Rebels: I'll change the loot upgrades to be offensive then.
Mohicans: I think this discussion is outdated, with the Battle Hellion there's no way Mohicans will be a good replacement.
Cargo Sizes: I have to stick to standard because units are used by "both systems". If I start changing them it can lead to weird cases in the cargo system I'm not willing to care about. And if I take the Medivac away the colonists wont have healing and people complained about Nova squadron and Tosh pirates lacking healing abilities.
Bio-Dome: They have a proper group wireframe in the editor so I son't know why it doesn't show in game.
@DEFILERRULEZ: Go I won't do that right now. Some of the units are already in, but with the beta starting I ant to wait and decide what to do.
Do the Rebels' Molotovs do a stacking damage-over-time in a small area when they hit the ground? If not, I'd recommend that, something that lasts maybe 3 seconds and does 2 damage per second (infinite stack). I wouldn't consider it overpowered considering they're fairly short-ranged.
@rickmary: Go This map will benefit wonders from HoTS, so I will port it to HoTS as soon as I can. But are we getting an arcade in this beta? I hope we are.
@Vultorask: Go They stack, but they do a 1 time damage in that area. But since their inability to hit moving targets it needs to be fixed.
So the arcade is disabled for HoTS beta. I think this is not a wise decision to port it right now. But the new editor has some interesting things for this mod, such as new possibilities of stat boost when on creep (attack speed and life/shield/energy regeneration bonus).
Also there are awesome models I'd love to add to this mod. I guess we can plan ahead what will change for the HoTS version.
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@Photoloss: Go You're right, but what abilities would the Starbase have? And visually the morph would be terrible. At least if we use the Starbasr model avaiable from that korean site.
I want to give the Bio-Dome useful abilities so players could have it earlier. Suggestions?
@Kanitala: Go The Scourge was called Avenger in early beta versions. Yeah, that model, it needs the pipes and smoke replaced by engines and fire when moving. And in my opinion it needs something that looks more or less like a cockpit if it's going to be a small fighter ship.
For the Sloth you could start with the Tanker Truck or Flatbed and add cannons in front of it. But for the tank itself I don't know what to do.
@SoulFilcher: Go
Actually MULEs would fit thematically. Scanner sweep could also be justified, but possibly placed on another unit/structure.
Maybe you could attach "power cables" to nearby structures (idea taken from CraftCraft map), increasing production. Either big boni at a resource cost, or small ones, possibly even decreasing training costs.
Maybe some farmers dug up an ancient artifact which is now stored in the biodome? Could be used as an excuse to give them Mass Recall, Forcefields, a (much weaker) Energy Nova, summoning "guardian spirits" (drop pod ability), cloaking tech (monolith Null Shield) or a calldown for xelnaga watchtowers and similar implements.
Infested has no macro ability.
@Photoloss: Go MULEs may fit, but they come from orbital platforms/satellites which is weird. Scanner Sweeps are also supposed to come from "above". I like your cable idea, I'll try and think of a good way to use it. Wouldn't the artifact excuse work way better for the Moebius Foundation? Why give the ultra-advanced alien technology to the rednecks?
@ARMofORION: Go Yeah, I know. I'm not sure how I could solve it.
@SoulFilcher: Go
MULEs could also be kept and maintained on-site in a mining colony. Huge waste of resources to call them in from orbit, and I don't think all Terran worlds that use them have that kind of orbital infrastructure (they certainly don't after the Zerg came through in WoL)
The artifact would work for Moebius too, but they already have the standard tech. The idea was that someone just stumbled upon it and accidently activated it, standard cheesy sci-fi plot. The colonists aren't only rednecks, they would also include dissident intellectuals like Hanson, some of which could be renowned archaeologists. The artifact should be a powerful one-off thing, while the Moebius Foundation lives and breathes alien tech, they actively work towards reverse-engineering it and applying/adapting it to existing technology.
Power cables: attaching costs resources or energy, cables can be disconnected for a refund and are left behind or destroyed when the structure lifts off, always destroyed if one of the 2 structures gets destroyed. There would have to be a limit on how many cables you can build/maintain so you can't just put them on everything in the lategame.
Did you remember my truck idea that is one of the doodads ?
Also The nomad should have a ability that repairs itself, using its work animation, no energy cost, justa 1 min cooldown
http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/nolanstars-textures/
Be sure to check out the extension mod: Hots Custom Map support on NA and EU, Despite the name it greatly expands the roster of options for the default 3 races and is updated all the way to NCO.
@Photoloss: Go So you mean Colonists should have MULEs, but they don't come from orbit? And I thought the Miner unit would be able to replace them somehow.
I'm sticking to basic lore here, so no far-fetched excuses for protoss abilities in the Colonist tech tree.
@nolanstar: Go Yes, it's under discussion, right now I feel it doesn't have a specific role or it would overlap with the existing units. Why would Nomads need to repair themselves? In the next update they will be able to place Vigilant bots and Seismic Thumpers which already make them way more useful then they were.
I got an idea for colonists, the Cargo Truck unit by default would be a small transport able to hold only a few units, however it could be outfitted with different loads in the back, such as vespene canisters for a HE Kamikaze truck, or upgraded with the full close on the back area providing the truck with extra hp/armor.
Pic:
@SoulFilcher: Go
The artifact isn't something you should add in and of itself. It's meant to serve as an excuse if a certain ability or mechanic would help gameplay, but there's no lore to back it up. For example I think they need increased mobility or the ability to force engagements, as most of their units are durable but slow, meaning an enemy could just retreat when outmatched, or employ vulnerable but heavy-hitting units behind wall-offs when defending to stop you in your tracks.
Miners could replace MULES, to be honest I had forgotten about them. Mainly because the drilling sound will drive you mad. (is that still in, or was it only in the old version?)
Nomads could be made to self-cast their repair ability or simply regenerate when out of combat. It would make them slightly more viable for solo missions as scratch damage wouldn't add up, but I don't see a real point to it either. The self-repair version could actually harm you if they're higher on the priority list. By the way, I once made a system for constructing turrets aboard the nomad, then dropping them. I'll attach a demo map in case you're interested, although I remember some bugs with the "drop" missile.
@rickmary: Go Please no more transport units for colonists, they already have 3 transports this is not the role they are lacking. I like the idea of a kamikaze truck, but since it carries vespene barrels I assume it would cost a lot of vespene. Maybe we could use the Tanker truck model instead, I like the yellow color on the construction vehicles ;-)
@Photoloss: Go If they need increased mobility let's think what could solve it, maybe balance the units' speed or what else?
Yeah that sound gets annoying pretty fast and its still in the game. I'll see if I can chenge or simply remove it.
I like your system for building turrets, but in a melee match this complexity isn't welcome. I wanted you guys to test the new Nomad abilities but I can't get the EU version updated. Tomorrow I'm going to update the NA version.
@SoulFilcher: Go
I don't think the colonists have to have more mobility, the hercules and other transports should be enough. The problem is that as a general theme many of their units are slow but durable, and deal low "burst damage", i.e. take some time to kill opponents. This leaves the enemy ample time to retreat, reposition or otherwise pick fights in their favor. The common solution to this is to have good "initiator units" to force an engagement on your terms: Tempests and siege tanks do this, if you don't go out and kill them they'll slowly eat up your entire army/base. Immortals, hallucinations, chargelots and the like serve a similar purpose, you can send them into an entrenched position to absorb the brunt of enemy fire while your army moves in, reducing the defender's advantage. Zerglings, chargelots and forcefields punish the enemy for retreating even if he escapes your main "deathball".
The colonists have none of these mechanics. The best they can do is send mohicans, which are inefficient fighters, or use low-orbit hercules, which requires T3.5 tech. Prisoners could serve as initiators, but I don't see a way to get them near enemy forces or walling structures to hack them. Sending APCs into a siege tank line is suicidal, maybe the sloth could fix that problem.
Some suggestions/bugs:
Please keep in mind I'm currently limited to theorycrafting, looking at the data in the editor and playing against the AI, and probably will be for quite some time. In addition to the EU problem I have a 100 kB/s? internet connection, which is barely enough to play online when noone else is using up bandwidth. I will try to keep out of finer balancing discussions, but if I don't feel free to remind me and disregard my advice.
@Photoloss: Go Thanks for all the thoughts. Even though I'd like to have those considerations tested in game some of them sound clear enough to force some changes prior any test. I'll try to get some of them in for the next update. Too bad I can't say we will have units such as the Sloth, so I can't make some of the decisions right now.
Prisoners were just thrown in to be a better replacement to Ghost than the previous Vigilant, which was basically a Terran Stalker. Without Cloak they can't fill the same role and I don't know what to do right now.
I can't simply change the Rebel's missile to target units. The mover was not made for it. The looting was meant to be limited to only 1 by race, if what they do is useless then I'll have to change the upgrades.
I can't go on increasing cargo sizes because the colonist units would be off the game's standards. I too feel the rebels shouldn't occupy 1 slot but there's no way around that, just like zerglings fit the same 1 slot. I know zerglings are stronger but still both are meant to be massed so as to be effective.
"Command bio-domes have a blank green selection image" you mean wireframe?
Due to the recent info on HoTS beta I'll wait a little longer for the next update. A new mapster version is up though.
@SoulFilcher: Go
Prisoners: They die too quickly for their cost and have no survival skill (cloak, burrow), stun bombs aren't as gamechanging by themselves as psi storm. It's a very strong ability though, so there must be solid measures against massing them, as stunlocks aren't much fun. Maybe give them personal shields (SC1 def matrix type, not protoss shields) or allow them to cast from APCs (probably not good, makes them uncounterable)
Rebels: I know the mover doesn't support it. You can create a similar effect by starting with a "throw" phase (throw vector 45° upwards or so) and blending into a "homing" phase after a second or so. It looks wonky against fast-moving targets just like all other homing missiles but it guarantees the hit. I think it's necessary for both rebels and mohicans, because early game it's too easy to just dodge the molotovs entirely (and they don't deal massive damage to compensate either), and mohicans are crap at harassing because they can't hit moving workers, which is the main role of the hellion they replace.
The problem with looting is that the boni are small and defense-oriented, when any AoE attack kills a fully stocked rebel just as easily as a naked one. In a mixed army the rebels aren't the meatshields, so extra survivability doesn't help much. And the bonus is wasted entirely if you stick them in APCs.
Cargo sizes: Is there a reason for keeping standard sizes beside sticking to the standard? It might matter if someone mindcontrols a colonist transport, but MC on a capital ship/walker is still stronger. Also the standard only applies to medivacs (by the way, another modern high-tech unit the colonists should not have), hercules are campaign-only and thus not balanced and APCs never held combat units in the first place (and don't they fit 10 or so colonists in the campaign?); by your argument mohicans should definitely be size 2 as they have the same stats as hellions.
Command bio-domes have a blank image in the group selection interface, but show the proper wireframe when selected individually.
Can you please post a rough changelog, or at least say which factions/units were changed? With so many suggestions flying around and the NA-Mapster desync (most of the time, anyway) I'm losing track of which changes to test for. Oh and where's the HotS beta info, or did you mean "upcoming"?
Keep up the good work! ;)
what do u think about adding hots public units to sc expanded but with different names (warhound could go on mercenaries faction)?
@Photoloss: Go There are changes to the Colonists, mainly the new Nomad. I don't recall all the changes since last version but I believe I fixed the smaller bugs that were pointed here. Mohicans were changed to size 2 and APCs can target air.
Prisoner: Lots of things to change. I write down every suggestion so we will settle some ideas for this unit eventually.
Rebels: I'll change the loot upgrades to be offensive then.
Mohicans: I think this discussion is outdated, with the Battle Hellion there's no way Mohicans will be a good replacement.
Cargo Sizes: I have to stick to standard because units are used by "both systems". If I start changing them it can lead to weird cases in the cargo system I'm not willing to care about. And if I take the Medivac away the colonists wont have healing and people complained about Nova squadron and Tosh pirates lacking healing abilities.
Bio-Dome: They have a proper group wireframe in the editor so I son't know why it doesn't show in game.
@DEFILERRULEZ: Go I won't do that right now. Some of the units are already in, but with the beta starting I ant to wait and decide what to do.
I am hoping to get into HOTS Beta, do you think you will port it over to that SoulFilcher?
Do the Rebels' Molotovs do a stacking damage-over-time in a small area when they hit the ground? If not, I'd recommend that, something that lasts maybe 3 seconds and does 2 damage per second (infinite stack). I wouldn't consider it overpowered considering they're fairly short-ranged.
@rickmary: Go This map will benefit wonders from HoTS, so I will port it to HoTS as soon as I can. But are we getting an arcade in this beta? I hope we are.
@Vultorask: Go They stack, but they do a 1 time damage in that area. But since their inability to hit moving targets it needs to be fixed.
So the arcade is disabled for HoTS beta. I think this is not a wise decision to port it right now. But the new editor has some interesting things for this mod, such as new possibilities of stat boost when on creep (attack speed and life/shield/energy regeneration bonus).
Also there are awesome models I'd love to add to this mod. I guess we can plan ahead what will change for the HoTS version.