Your prediction for the scene is wishful thinking. What makes you think
that a fix is coming anytime soon?
1) Blizzard has said, many times, by many different devs that they'll do so.
2) Blizzard clearly has made supporting the modding scene a priority as part of their plans for ensuring SC2 longevity and aiming to use it as another possible revenue stream. The last part is the key element there, them building SC2 to have a sort of mini-steam/xbla is part of a business strategy. This isn't them going "gee this'll be nice for the fans"...no, at the core it is done as an attempt to earn more money and as such it has a higher priority than otherwise.
Compare this to other highly moddable games; Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, etc. they are made so moddable and flexible as a side effect of the games aiming to license the engine's (which is very similar to what the premium marketplace is said to be).
Proof of this focus is seen early on with; tools out in the beta, them making/releasing their own custom mods, the blizzcon contest, patch updates to the editor...etc. I haven't seen this level of support before in an RTS.
3) I never said "soon", this is Blizzard we're talking about. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the art export tools and bnet tweaks are out within 6 months.
While I agree that the "shiny phase" is partially to blame for the
decline in the scene, it should be noted that this effect was amplified
by the various BNET problems. This "it takes time" argument is quite
flawed. The game has been out for several months, even longer if you
include beta. No one is asking for a total conversion or a fully
developed DotA at this moment. But, we definitely should be seeing more
than we are now. Notice how our beloved Nexus Wars is actually an
inferior Footman Frenzy for example...
How is it flawed, what other modding communities are you comparing SC2 to? I personally am overwhelmed with the amount of clever, well made mods made (and being made) for SC2 at this point...far far more than I'd have predicted.
I don't know if you guys are new to Blizzard games, but, Karawasa is pretty much right. I remember seeing Karawasa in TDA, so I can understand his pessimism when it comes to Blizzard. TDA is largely responsible for the reason WC3 was not deemed a failure, because of what it spawned with DotA.
The thing is, even though the community created a place to play games without leavers. Blizzard still did not pick up on the most popular scene in WC3. They did not take anything from the success of DotA and apply it to bnet 2.0. We still have leaver infested games, still have the same maps overpopulated on the front page, still have griefer issues, still have no custom support or catering, still have no way to store data server side, still have hackers, still have all the problems bnet 1.0 had and bnet 2.0 has more problems now than 1.0 had.
After release of a game by Blizzard you cannot expect anything from them. WC3 ladder was destroyed after 1.16, D2 was simplified from the talent patch. They still have not fixed the dupe problem or fix enigma. Even though the game proves time and again it still makes money...
Suffice to say, Blizzard has not proved anything when it comes to refining or fixing problems in a game. Blizzard has absolutely done nothing with the community ever, even though they're fully capable of doing so. Believing that anything will change without proof is fanboytastic. I played Blizzard games since rock n roll racing, bought every game. I still don't believe Blizzard is knows how to cater to a communities needs.
But, even though all that sucks and seems pessimistic of Blizzard, all this doesn't mean anything. As long as the community has control to create what we need. But, bnet2.0 pretty much killed all of that with no channels, and the exploitable popularity system. Now we're told what to play by default, now we're completely locked out to strangers socially from other people on Bnet. I honestly don't know what Blizzard was trying to accomplish, or rather, if they were even trying.
1) Blizzard has said, many times, by many different devs that they'll do so.
Classic fanboy response. You do realize that they have publicly acknowledged the problem less than five times, right? In fact, I recall one guy at Blizzcon saying something to the effect of "learn to promote your map" so digest that as you will. What should be of more concern though, is the number of times that Blizzard has hinted at a specific solution or a time horizon. That's right, zero. So you have no idea when it's coming and no idea what it will even be!
2) Blizzard clearly has made supporting the modding scene a priority as part of their plans for ensuring SC2 longevity and aiming to use it as another possible revenue stream. The last part is the key element there, them building SC2 to have a sort of mini-steam/xbla is part of a business strategy. This isn't them going "gee this'll be nice for the fans"...no, at the core it is done as an attempt to earn more money and as such it has a higher priority than otherwise.
Proof of this focus is seen early on with; tools out in the beta, them making/releasing their own custom mods, the blizzcon contest, patch updates to the editor...etc. I haven't seen this level of support before in an RTS.
No, just no. You think they included an editor in WC3 just to be nice to the fans? They obviously had an eye on custom games increasing the lifespan of WC3. I bought WC3 sometime after TFT came out! What does that tell you? That is money in the pocket for them. The irony of your thinking is that their attempt to make money from the editor directly has actually backfired. Do you think the popularity system is unrelated to the future marketplace?
Your "proof" tells me that you've never played WC3. They made their own maps and they updated the editor with patches. A funny thing is your citation of the map contest. Did you miss the fact that the contest had nothing to do with the custom map scene? The purpose was to produce promotional content for Blizzcon. One of the winners revealed that they picked maps solely based on them being "drive-by" for the 10-15 minutes each person got on the computers. Did anyone think this was the purpose beforehand? No, so Blizzard actually used you guys and now you're lapping it up, unbelievable.
3) I never said "soon", this is Blizzard we're talking about. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the art export tools and bnet tweaks are out within 6 months.
How is it flawed, what other modding communities are you comparing SC2 to? I personally am overwhelmed with the amount of clever, well made mods made (and being made) for SC2 at this point...far far more than I'd have predicted.
Glad you have at least some sanity. It seems like you recognize that we won't see anything until late next year at least. All I ask you to do is revisit this idea at the start of next year. I'm sure things will seem active now by comparison.
Your expectations for mods must be rock bottom. The vast majority of mods are built from SC1 or WC3 concepts. The funny thing is that they are not superior either. I'll mentioned our beloved Nexus Wars again as example of regression.
Glad to see some common sense! You make a very, very good point that I hope people pick up on. Even if we ignore the fact that BNET 2.0 is actually a step backwards from BNET 1.0, you can't overlook the fact that we have lost control to do anything about it. In WC3 people did a variety of things to compensate for features lacking; such as the TDA channel, hosting bots, custom leagues, banlist etc.. None of these things, or anything like them, are possible anymore.
I just want to point out that the Blizzard of SC2 is not the Blizzard of WC3. Between then and now two things have happened, WoW and Activision. This is not a good thing.
Glad to see some common sense! You make a very, very good point that I hope people pick up on. Even if we ignore the fact that BNET 2.0 is actually a step backwards from BNET 1.0, you can't overlook the fact that we have lost control to do anything about it. In WC3 people did a variety of things to compensate for features lacking; such as the TDA channel, hosting bots, custom leagues, banlist etc.. None of these things, or anything like them, are possible anymore.
Exactly my point, none of the lack of features/problems/exploits matter at all, nothing about Bnet2.0 matters as long as a community can do something about it. Everything I posted about lingering problems with Bnet, could be ratified via the community. Through 3rd party programs or other things.
Now, this is no longer the case, and the can of worms got even bigger with Bnet2.0 making it an extreme to impossible challenge for new custom communities.
Map-making is fun, but I have too much else going on to be able to justify spending any amount of time playing with triggers and data editing anymore. This is why I haven't been on here so much. Plus the front page news has been slowing down... I still check the site from time to time to see what's good... see if any progress has been made on certain maps, see if there's anything new and mind-blowing.
Supprised your so negetive about the whole SC2 experience. As you said you did not purchase WC3 till after TFT.
Which tells me you didnt play WC3 till about 2 years after WC3 was already out. Im thinking if you wait till SC2's two year mark, you will see most of your issues will have been addressed.
Online chat rooms and such are on thier next big patch list btw.
I woulda figured you would have the patience seeing how your WC3 map is such a hit. You should know that WC3 ROC was absolute rubish at first as well.
Supprised your so negetive about the whole SC2 experience. As you said you did not purchase WC3 till after TFT.
Which tells me you didnt play WC3 till about 2 years after WC3 was already out. Im thinking if you wait till SC2's two year mark, you will see most of your issues will have been addressed.
Online chat rooms and such are on thier next big patch list btw.
I woulda figured you would have the patience seeing how your WC3 map is such a hit. You should know that WC3 ROC was absolute rubish at first as well.
I have to agree here. If SC2 and especially the editor improves as much in the next 2 years like the WC3 editor did with TFT, thats a HUGE deal. Remember those times, where the only way to edit abilities slightly or change maximum level for heroes was some .slk table hacking?
Hah, tell me about it. I'm finding it nearly impossible to even get people to help test my map, let alone answer questions about it! Oye! Come back people!
The constant stream of mods on this very site is a constant source of pleasure to me. I don't see the glass as half empty at all. SC2 is by far the most flexible RTS engine I've ever seen. Amazing things can be done and are being done every day. SC2 is THE game to mod if you have any interest in RTS modding what so ever.
You can discuss the problems Blizzard is having with its distribution service but you're missing the wood for the trees. Blizzard HAS a distribution service integrated directly into their game, amazing!
Ultimately, comparing the modding community of a well established, years old game to one that's a few months old is premature. The bottom line is that a mod community takes a long time to become established. Comparing like for like, did anyone even understand HOW to mod the CnC3 engine this soon after launch?
Both the popularity system and the custom map contest result have negative effect to the morale of the mapmaking community. =/
Yes. I haven't played SC or opened the editor in a couple months and I never got into playing custom maps because of Blizzard's system. As of now, I guess I'm waiting for HotS :P
I think you should try though, there are some pretty decent maps out there :P (such as Start Battle and Special Forces Night) i've spent way to many hours on those two :P
Like i said before, theres other games too out there. By and large most SC2 players are old blizzard fans.
Op: "And there were other games that people played during wc3. What's your point?"
There is a solid community for these console games and other PC games. Went to a Gamestop and the employees there were suprise that i was buying a PC game
You have to consider the effect of map publishing being the only way to
get playable maps.
With SC and WC3, to find new maps to play you could go to sites where
industrious players produced them, discuss the maps with them, and
possibly learn to make your own.
"Battle.net 2.0" centralized everything. You cannot go to map creation
sites to get new content, you must go through Blizzard. The centralized
control seized by Blizzard removes much of the incentive for new people
to visit the content-creation community at all. The restrictions on
"inappropiate content" and trademark usage makes it worse, cutting off
options for stupid, harmless fun, and in some cases even deep,
introspective plotlines.
Do not expect much new blood.
Actually you can Download maps right here at SC2mapster.com and load them in the Editor to play them. This really isnt the route most map makers are taking with the content they produce though, IMO I perfer the centralized distributing Blizz has for us this time around, but its much much harder to protect your work if you freely give it away in a manner that people can just open locally in thier editor. Thats not to say some people arnt fine with letting your have access to the raw map file. If you take a look at the maps section on here theres some complete or good demo games available you can freely play through the editor.
Yup its WOW expansion time...... Im fighting off the urge to enable my account and work on a Worgen Rogue. God I hate leveling... and then Ill never finish my Map projects.
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1) Blizzard has said, many times, by many different devs that they'll do so.
2) Blizzard clearly has made supporting the modding scene a priority as part of their plans for ensuring SC2 longevity and aiming to use it as another possible revenue stream. The last part is the key element there, them building SC2 to have a sort of mini-steam/xbla is part of a business strategy. This isn't them going "gee this'll be nice for the fans"...no, at the core it is done as an attempt to earn more money and as such it has a higher priority than otherwise.
Compare this to other highly moddable games; Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, etc. they are made so moddable and flexible as a side effect of the games aiming to license the engine's (which is very similar to what the premium marketplace is said to be).
Proof of this focus is seen early on with; tools out in the beta, them making/releasing their own custom mods, the blizzcon contest, patch updates to the editor...etc. I haven't seen this level of support before in an RTS.
3) I never said "soon", this is Blizzard we're talking about. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the art export tools and bnet tweaks are out within 6 months.
How is it flawed, what other modding communities are you comparing SC2 to? I personally am overwhelmed with the amount of clever, well made mods made (and being made) for SC2 at this point...far far more than I'd have predicted.
I don't know if you guys are new to Blizzard games, but, Karawasa is pretty much right. I remember seeing Karawasa in TDA, so I can understand his pessimism when it comes to Blizzard. TDA is largely responsible for the reason WC3 was not deemed a failure, because of what it spawned with DotA.
The thing is, even though the community created a place to play games without leavers. Blizzard still did not pick up on the most popular scene in WC3. They did not take anything from the success of DotA and apply it to bnet 2.0. We still have leaver infested games, still have the same maps overpopulated on the front page, still have griefer issues, still have no custom support or catering, still have no way to store data server side, still have hackers, still have all the problems bnet 1.0 had and bnet 2.0 has more problems now than 1.0 had.
After release of a game by Blizzard you cannot expect anything from them. WC3 ladder was destroyed after 1.16, D2 was simplified from the talent patch. They still have not fixed the dupe problem or fix enigma. Even though the game proves time and again it still makes money...
Suffice to say, Blizzard has not proved anything when it comes to refining or fixing problems in a game. Blizzard has absolutely done nothing with the community ever, even though they're fully capable of doing so. Believing that anything will change without proof is fanboytastic. I played Blizzard games since rock n roll racing, bought every game. I still don't believe Blizzard is knows how to cater to a communities needs.
But, even though all that sucks and seems pessimistic of Blizzard, all this doesn't mean anything. As long as the community has control to create what we need. But, bnet2.0 pretty much killed all of that with no channels, and the exploitable popularity system. Now we're told what to play by default, now we're completely locked out to strangers socially from other people on Bnet. I honestly don't know what Blizzard was trying to accomplish, or rather, if they were even trying.
Classic fanboy response. You do realize that they have publicly acknowledged the problem less than five times, right? In fact, I recall one guy at Blizzcon saying something to the effect of "learn to promote your map" so digest that as you will. What should be of more concern though, is the number of times that Blizzard has hinted at a specific solution or a time horizon. That's right, zero. So you have no idea when it's coming and no idea what it will even be!
No, just no. You think they included an editor in WC3 just to be nice to the fans? They obviously had an eye on custom games increasing the lifespan of WC3. I bought WC3 sometime after TFT came out! What does that tell you? That is money in the pocket for them. The irony of your thinking is that their attempt to make money from the editor directly has actually backfired. Do you think the popularity system is unrelated to the future marketplace?
Your "proof" tells me that you've never played WC3. They made their own maps and they updated the editor with patches. A funny thing is your citation of the map contest. Did you miss the fact that the contest had nothing to do with the custom map scene? The purpose was to produce promotional content for Blizzcon. One of the winners revealed that they picked maps solely based on them being "drive-by" for the 10-15 minutes each person got on the computers. Did anyone think this was the purpose beforehand? No, so Blizzard actually used you guys and now you're lapping it up, unbelievable.
Glad you have at least some sanity. It seems like you recognize that we won't see anything until late next year at least. All I ask you to do is revisit this idea at the start of next year. I'm sure things will seem active now by comparison.
Your expectations for mods must be rock bottom. The vast majority of mods are built from SC1 or WC3 concepts. The funny thing is that they are not superior either. I'll mentioned our beloved Nexus Wars again as example of regression.
@PSGMud: Go
Glad to see some common sense! You make a very, very good point that I hope people pick up on. Even if we ignore the fact that BNET 2.0 is actually a step backwards from BNET 1.0, you can't overlook the fact that we have lost control to do anything about it. In WC3 people did a variety of things to compensate for features lacking; such as the TDA channel, hosting bots, custom leagues, banlist etc.. None of these things, or anything like them, are possible anymore.
I just want to point out that the Blizzard of SC2 is not the Blizzard of WC3. Between then and now two things have happened, WoW and Activision. This is not a good thing.
Exactly my point, none of the lack of features/problems/exploits matter at all, nothing about Bnet2.0 matters as long as a community can do something about it. Everything I posted about lingering problems with Bnet, could be ratified via the community. Through 3rd party programs or other things.
Now, this is no longer the case, and the can of worms got even bigger with Bnet2.0 making it an extreme to impossible challenge for new custom communities.
SC2 was a fad for me...
Map-making is fun, but I have too much else going on to be able to justify spending any amount of time playing with triggers and data editing anymore. This is why I haven't been on here so much. Plus the front page news has been slowing down... I still check the site from time to time to see what's good... see if any progress has been made on certain maps, see if there's anything new and mind-blowing.
I've lost interest though.
@Karawasa: Go
Supprised your so negetive about the whole SC2 experience. As you said you did not purchase WC3 till after TFT.
Which tells me you didnt play WC3 till about 2 years after WC3 was already out. Im thinking if you wait till SC2's two year mark, you will see most of your issues will have been addressed.
Online chat rooms and such are on thier next big patch list btw.
I woulda figured you would have the patience seeing how your WC3 map is such a hit. You should know that WC3 ROC was absolute rubish at first as well.
I have to agree here. If SC2 and especially the editor improves as much in the next 2 years like the WC3 editor did with TFT, thats a HUGE deal. Remember those times, where the only way to edit abilities slightly or change maximum level for heroes was some .slk table hacking?
I think this site is getting popular for noobies again. :(
Hah, tell me about it. I'm finding it nearly impossible to even get people to help test my map, let alone answer questions about it! Oye! Come back people!
The constant stream of mods on this very site is a constant source of pleasure to me. I don't see the glass as half empty at all. SC2 is by far the most flexible RTS engine I've ever seen. Amazing things can be done and are being done every day. SC2 is THE game to mod if you have any interest in RTS modding what so ever.
You can discuss the problems Blizzard is having with its distribution service but you're missing the wood for the trees. Blizzard HAS a distribution service integrated directly into their game, amazing!
Ultimately, comparing the modding community of a well established, years old game to one that's a few months old is premature. The bottom line is that a mod community takes a long time to become established. Comparing like for like, did anyone even understand HOW to mod the CnC3 engine this soon after launch?
Yes. I haven't played SC or opened the editor in a couple months and I never got into playing custom maps because of Blizzard's system. As of now, I guess I'm waiting for HotS :P
@devilesk: Go
I think you should try though, there are some pretty decent maps out there :P (such as Start Battle and Special Forces Night) i've spent way to many hours on those two :P
@QuantumMenace: Go
World Of Warcraft Expansion.
Stevehammon: "World Of Warcraft Expansion."
Like i said before, theres other games too out there. By and large most SC2 players are old blizzard fans.
Op: "And there were other games that people played during wc3. What's your point?"
There is a solid community for these console games and other PC games. Went to a Gamestop and the employees there were suprise that i was buying a PC game
Actually you can Download maps right here at SC2mapster.com and load them in the Editor to play them. This really isnt the route most map makers are taking with the content they produce though, IMO I perfer the centralized distributing Blizz has for us this time around, but its much much harder to protect your work if you freely give it away in a manner that people can just open locally in thier editor. Thats not to say some people arnt fine with letting your have access to the raw map file. If you take a look at the maps section on here theres some complete or good demo games available you can freely play through the editor.
Yup its WOW expansion time...... Im fighting off the urge to enable my account and work on a Worgen Rogue. God I hate leveling... and then Ill never finish my Map projects.
Back to the top you go.
5 posts/h in prime time. Unsettling.
Stop posting here and answer questions! This noobs most recent one was on changing the color of creep on the minimap.
If you want to answer that one, don't do it here- do it on my post (not actually mine but whatever)