Knowing something and actually applying it are two entirely different things.
I think the only classes I actually failed were spanish and Home economics. and that was because I killed my flour baby, and in spanish i told the teacher to fuck off.
Was wondering when someone would officially ignite this powder keg, lol. Any time there is talk of life after death and that sort of thing, it quickly degenerates into this. No one's minds ever get changed, all that ends up happening is someone talks about how flawed science is, then immediately that person is proclaimed dumb, wrong, and all religious people are obviously stupid.
Anyways, may as well say my 5 cents while I am at it. I do believe in a God, a heaven, and a hell. Many people I know do not. I don't really try to persuade them one way or the other, although I am really the one with nothing to lose. See if they are right, there is nothing else after this, I'll be just as dead as they are. However, if I am right, it is unlikely they'll be enjoying themselves any.
With that, should try for a nice subject change. The new Battlenet 2.0 is AWESOME! Discuss!
Very good post. I do disagree in some parts though. It's never been my intention to 'convert' anyone to anything. I'm just trying to advocate what the band Bad Religion calls 'Leave mine to me'. A lot of folks seem prone to misunderstanding and lack of knowledge regarding certain terms, which turns the discussion into a poo-flinging fest as sense starts dwindling. All I really want to do is lay down the differences between theïsts, atheïsts and agnostics, which does seem to have helped some people out in the thread earlier. That, and point out to the 'renowned atheïsts' (I'm sure there's some reading this, if Eiviyn doesn't want to count himself to the group) that their point of view is just as stupid as misled as that of the 'religious people' they hate.
Eiviyn asked why I didn't compare creationism to evolution. I didn't because creationism is stupid people abusing the nomer of religion. Religion is what you make of it. One could call me a Christian and not even be completely wrong - I think the bible has a lot of stories that form good metaphors for (everyday) life. As long as you don't take them completely literally and approach the book with common sense, it can be a source of a lot of good stuff. Which is true for basically anything in life.
@Mozared: Go Creationism vs evolution is too often discussed in these cases, what I care to tell people is: these have nothing to do with the existence of God or anything like that, just like saying the Earth moves around the Sun didn't "kill" any God. Religious books carry lots of ancient thoughts and many of them have been proved wrong, but not even one is directly related to the core concepts of those religions, like the existence of Gods or moral codes.
I consider myself an atheist, but as a teacher and as a person who respects the freedom of thought and belief, and must always show where the real discussion lies. I had to teach evolution to religious students before and in the end what made me happy is that they understand better these religion vs science discussions.
Sorry that I'm out of topic again, but maybe guys like TaintedWisp should have had better teachers (or maybe should have paid attention to them).
Christians can accept evolution. There's nothing wrong with this theory. It becomes problematic for a Christian to say that God didn't create life because it evolved on its own. This is not scientific evolution, just another philosophy.
@BasharTeg: Go God could have created life and the laws of evolution. That's exaclty what I was saying, misinterpretation of the consequences mislead people to attack something they don't fully understand. In fact during the first decades after the Origin of the Species book many Christian priests accepted it as truth, claiming that it was one of the natural laws created by God, just like gravity or any other. The problem is some people can only take religious books literally form the beginning to the end, so they can't even accept such statements.
Evolution doesnt tell us God didn't create life, it only tell us all life on Earth evolved form a single species and that species accumulate modifications over time. God's participation on it is still based on each person's beliefs.
If our soul is immortal, well I can't say if it's a good thing or a bad thing, because I cannot know what "life" is like on the other side, or if our perception of time changes, or if we lose our body/brain, do we still react the same? Do we get depressed/happy/angry if there's no chemicals being released?
If I had a choice to make my body immortal, I would chose no. I'll risk death one day to find out if there is something beyond death. If not... not like it mattered.
Besides, I think most people nowadays, with the 85 year life span we have, would find it extremely daunting, overwhelming, and just downright depressing to have to live "forever". Our psyches is not tailored to extremely long life spans. Humanity has a long way to go before we live to be several hundred, if not thousands of years.
Life expectancy has basically double since 1900. With science/robotics/cybernetics/genetics advancing at the rate it is, I don't think it's a far cry that in no time at all, we'll be around for 150 years. People used to get married at 13 years old back in the day and have kids right away, the life expectancy was approximately 48, so we were "on the fast track" and really had no time.
Now people stay in school till they are 18, then go off to college for several years. Doctors and whatnot go for an extra 7 years. 25 years old before they're done school. The "timing" of life is extending. People are having their first child even well into their 40s, or in some cases even later. Family generations are extended, with even 4 generations being alive at the same time. Great Grandmother, Grandmother, Mother, Daughter.
So, do I believe we are immortal?
I believe there's something after "life as we know it". What it is, I cannot say. Will it be different? I believe it will be. We lose our body, our chemical reactions, our "limitations".
The following is a message that contains my personal thoughts and opinions. It is a reflection of the way I perceive reality. It is not me trying to shove something down your throat. It is not me telling you that all you believe in is wrong/a lie/stupid. If you are still offended by it, read it again in a silly voice and you'll be fine.
It's difficult to imagine a life beyond what we know as reality because of our attachment to that reality. That attachment makes death seem far more frightening than the physical pain associated with it. When a dying person "accepts death," they let go of their attachment to reality and "move on," resulting in a peaceful death.
I think this is one of the major flaws of looking at eternal life through the mortal lens. It can only really be appreciated if you can detach yourself from the world. For someone who has never attempted this, it sounds completely crazy. It's why many of the saints are sometimes looked at as nutcases. It's kind of true, in a way: Insanity is the separation of one's perception of reality with reality as it actually is. The difference with the saints, however, is they see reality as it actually is, while the rest of us are caught up in illusive worldliness. In other words, they think "normal" people like us are crazy. Even if you think this is utter nonsense, I recommend you read about the saints. Lots of interesting stories.
Myself, I'm terrified of death. There's so much I want to do. But I also acknowledge that I can't really be happy unless I'm willing to let all of that go... so I try a little bit at a time to forget the world. Works for me so far.
With that said, we need to be argueing definitions here first. What classifies as 'significantly meaningful', Rodrigo? If that means "have some kind of impact on the whole universe", then no, that probably wouldn't really be possible for us at the moment without an afterlife. If it means "have impact on other people", then it would be. If it means "fulfilling to yourself", then it'd be possible as well.
Close to your "fulfilling to youself" definition. It means that it doesn't stop us to be the happiest person on the planet.
Do all the happiest people on Earth believe they are immortal? Is that belief affecting their happiness?
Eventually I think any kind of immortal consciousness will be doomed by the fact that it cant totally renew itself...
Think of consciousness as money. If we are immortal, does that mean we are doomed to be poor? No. More we live, more we learn and can get better jobs and earn more money. We do spend a lot of money (mistakes), but we can always pay our old debts. You're right, we can't renew ourselves. That means we can't change our beginning, but we can always make a new end (exept Blizzard, that one is doomed).
my own baby, HELL NO, i take precaution ... its called wearing a damn condom also my last GF always had Day after pills that would kill anything incase the condom failed.... lawl
I hear you mate. I don't think you are alone with this notion. ^^
From what I can gather it seems you are 'affraid' of the unknown ,in this case the after death/life -where does my mind go, like many of us has or probably will soon enough think of. I mean it is shurely hard for us humans to think that your aging conscouse of self can merely 'halt'.And I think the amount of posts you got so far (71) confirms it.
In that said I came to the following idea a few years back...and hope it will make you feel better.
Can you remember anything, and it may sound stupid or cliche, before birth? Do you not slightly agree that death is the same ?
If you can get a paradigm shift to think of it this way you will simply not care about death and enjoy the time you have now,right now.
And perhaps do someting great for future generations so they can also one day ,maybe blog something like this and repeat the cycle?
After all ,many have died and invented/improved/studied stuff like i.e the PC's we use today to chat ,allthough we don't even know each other personally and sharing such deep thoughts.
It almost seems as though humankind is trying to unconsciousely keep a collective 'brain' to immortalise ourselfs or ideas.
From anchient basic language, to enscribed characters ,to books and ultimately modern computer programs.Maybe it is inevitable that such a spark of AI might occur.
But hold on I'm getting a bit off-topic... `o.O`
From another mind to yours. ...........And I didn't even Speak a word to you, worderfull indeed.............
@BlakwidowRSA: Go Fine words. I do think afterlife is just like before you were born. And I agree that we might know that memories are everything we leave behind. A person is not totally dead as long as people remember and pass along thoughts, teachings and so on, thus I come to your conclusion, things like books, songs and now the whole internet are keeping people alive, they become something like signs on the road for younger people.
EDIT: Was it your first post on Mapster? If it was then be welcome.
@Nebuli2: Go
Knowing something and actually applying it are two entirely different things.
I think the only classes I actually failed were spanish and Home economics. and that was because I killed my flour baby, and in spanish i told the teacher to fuck off.
What the fuck is Home economics?
US always surprises me with utterly retarded eduction.
@Hookah604: Go
Home economics is basically how to be a stereotypical woman.
@Nebuli2: Go
I failed it... I hit someone with my "baby" bag of flour... and it busted...
Very good post. I do disagree in some parts though. It's never been my intention to 'convert' anyone to anything. I'm just trying to advocate what the band Bad Religion calls 'Leave mine to me'. A lot of folks seem prone to misunderstanding and lack of knowledge regarding certain terms, which turns the discussion into a poo-flinging fest as sense starts dwindling. All I really want to do is lay down the differences between theïsts, atheïsts and agnostics, which does seem to have helped some people out in the thread earlier. That, and point out to the 'renowned atheïsts' (I'm sure there's some reading this, if Eiviyn doesn't want to count himself to the group) that their point of view is just as stupid as misled as that of the 'religious people' they hate.
Eiviyn asked why I didn't compare creationism to evolution. I didn't because creationism is stupid people abusing the nomer of religion. Religion is what you make of it. One could call me a Christian and not even be completely wrong - I think the bible has a lot of stories that form good metaphors for (everyday) life. As long as you don't take them completely literally and approach the book with common sense, it can be a source of a lot of good stuff. Which is true for basically anything in life.
@Mozared: Go Creationism vs evolution is too often discussed in these cases, what I care to tell people is: these have nothing to do with the existence of God or anything like that, just like saying the Earth moves around the Sun didn't "kill" any God. Religious books carry lots of ancient thoughts and many of them have been proved wrong, but not even one is directly related to the core concepts of those religions, like the existence of Gods or moral codes.
I consider myself an atheist, but as a teacher and as a person who respects the freedom of thought and belief, and must always show where the real discussion lies. I had to teach evolution to religious students before and in the end what made me happy is that they understand better these religion vs science discussions.
Sorry that I'm out of topic again, but maybe guys like TaintedWisp should have had better teachers (or maybe should have paid attention to them).
@SoulFilcher: Go
Christians can accept evolution. There's nothing wrong with this theory. It becomes problematic for a Christian to say that God didn't create life because it evolved on its own. This is not scientific evolution, just another philosophy.
@BasharTeg: Go God could have created life and the laws of evolution. That's exaclty what I was saying, misinterpretation of the consequences mislead people to attack something they don't fully understand. In fact during the first decades after the Origin of the Species book many Christian priests accepted it as truth, claiming that it was one of the natural laws created by God, just like gravity or any other. The problem is some people can only take religious books literally form the beginning to the end, so they can't even accept such statements.
Evolution doesnt tell us God didn't create life, it only tell us all life on Earth evolved form a single species and that species accumulate modifications over time. God's participation on it is still based on each person's beliefs.
Lets find out Rod, let me stab you in the face.
If our soul is immortal, well I can't say if it's a good thing or a bad thing, because I cannot know what "life" is like on the other side, or if our perception of time changes, or if we lose our body/brain, do we still react the same? Do we get depressed/happy/angry if there's no chemicals being released?
If I had a choice to make my body immortal, I would chose no. I'll risk death one day to find out if there is something beyond death. If not... not like it mattered.
Besides, I think most people nowadays, with the 85 year life span we have, would find it extremely daunting, overwhelming, and just downright depressing to have to live "forever". Our psyches is not tailored to extremely long life spans. Humanity has a long way to go before we live to be several hundred, if not thousands of years.
Life expectancy has basically double since 1900. With science/robotics/cybernetics/genetics advancing at the rate it is, I don't think it's a far cry that in no time at all, we'll be around for 150 years. People used to get married at 13 years old back in the day and have kids right away, the life expectancy was approximately 48, so we were "on the fast track" and really had no time.
Now people stay in school till they are 18, then go off to college for several years. Doctors and whatnot go for an extra 7 years. 25 years old before they're done school. The "timing" of life is extending. People are having their first child even well into their 40s, or in some cases even later. Family generations are extended, with even 4 generations being alive at the same time. Great Grandmother, Grandmother, Mother, Daughter.
So, do I believe we are immortal?
I believe there's something after "life as we know it". What it is, I cannot say. Will it be different? I believe it will be. We lose our body, our chemical reactions, our "limitations".
DISCLAIMER
The following is a message that contains my personal thoughts and opinions. It is a reflection of the way I perceive reality. It is not me trying to shove something down your throat. It is not me telling you that all you believe in is wrong/a lie/stupid. If you are still offended by it, read it again in a silly voice and you'll be fine.
@BorgDragon: Go
It's difficult to imagine a life beyond what we know as reality because of our attachment to that reality. That attachment makes death seem far more frightening than the physical pain associated with it. When a dying person "accepts death," they let go of their attachment to reality and "move on," resulting in a peaceful death.
I think this is one of the major flaws of looking at eternal life through the mortal lens. It can only really be appreciated if you can detach yourself from the world. For someone who has never attempted this, it sounds completely crazy. It's why many of the saints are sometimes looked at as nutcases. It's kind of true, in a way: Insanity is the separation of one's perception of reality with reality as it actually is. The difference with the saints, however, is they see reality as it actually is, while the rest of us are caught up in illusive worldliness. In other words, they think "normal" people like us are crazy. Even if you think this is utter nonsense, I recommend you read about the saints. Lots of interesting stories.
Myself, I'm terrified of death. There's so much I want to do. But I also acknowledge that I can't really be happy unless I'm willing to let all of that go... so I try a little bit at a time to forget the world. Works for me so far.
@BasharTeg: Go
I'm touched.
@Taintedwisp: Go
Tsk tsk, imagine if that had been your own baby :P
Would have been quite a traumatic experience.
Wow. Yesterday there were 5 posts. Today this place looks like School of Athens!
Close to your "fulfilling to youself" definition. It means that it doesn't stop us to be the happiest person on the planet.
Do all the happiest people on Earth believe they are immortal? Is that belief affecting their happiness?
Being a famous atheist does not fit into my definition of "significantly meaningful" (read above).
Think of consciousness as money. If we are immortal, does that mean we are doomed to be poor? No. More we live, more we learn and can get better jobs and earn more money. We do spend a lot of money (mistakes), but we can always pay our old debts. You're right, we can't renew ourselves. That means we can't change our beginning, but we can always make a new end (exept Blizzard, that one is doomed).
@Nebuli2: Go
my own baby, HELL NO, i take precaution ... its called wearing a damn condom also my last GF always had Day after pills that would kill anything incase the condom failed.... lawl
@Taintedwisp: Go
I meant that if you had a baby lol :P
@BasharTeg: Go
I hear you mate. I don't think you are alone with this notion. ^^
From what I can gather it seems you are 'affraid' of the unknown ,in this case the after death/life -where does my mind go, like many of us has or probably will soon enough think of. I mean it is shurely hard for us humans to think that your aging conscouse of self can merely 'halt'.And I think the amount of posts you got so far (71) confirms it.
In that said I came to the following idea a few years back...and hope it will make you feel better. Can you remember anything, and it may sound stupid or cliche, before birth? Do you not slightly agree that death is the same ? If you can get a paradigm shift to think of it this way you will simply not care about death and enjoy the time you have now,right now.
And perhaps do someting great for future generations so they can also one day ,maybe blog something like this and repeat the cycle? After all ,many have died and invented/improved/studied stuff like i.e the PC's we use today to chat ,allthough we don't even know each other personally and sharing such deep thoughts.
It almost seems as though humankind is trying to unconsciousely keep a collective 'brain' to immortalise ourselfs or ideas. From anchient basic language, to enscribed characters ,to books and ultimately modern computer programs.Maybe it is inevitable that such a spark of AI might occur.
But hold on I'm getting a bit off-topic... `o.O`
From another mind to yours. ...........And I didn't even Speak a word to you, worderfull indeed.............
@Nebuli2: Go
lol, I doubt i would get pissed at someone and throw my real baby at them :D
@BlakwidowRSA: Go Fine words. I do think afterlife is just like before you were born. And I agree that we might know that memories are everything we leave behind. A person is not totally dead as long as people remember and pass along thoughts, teachings and so on, thus I come to your conclusion, things like books, songs and now the whole internet are keeping people alive, they become something like signs on the road for younger people.
EDIT: Was it your first post on Mapster? If it was then be welcome.
@Taintedwisp: Go
You'd have to be even more angry to hit someone hard enough with your baby for it to explode 0.0