So... I'm sure this isn't the proper forum to be having political discussions on, but I know there are a lot of intelligent people on these forums from all over the world, so I thought I'd see where everyone's at on this.
If you're not familiar with Omar Khadr, he's a Canadian-Afghan who:
Quote:
...in October 2010, pleaded guilty to the five charges against him, including murder and supporting terrorism in Afghanistan, as part of a plea agreement with prosecutors at the U.S. military commission at Guantanamo Bay. He was captured on July 27, 2002 by American forces at the age of 15 following a four-hour firefight in the village of Ayub Kheyl, Afghanistan. He has spent seven years in the Guantanamo Bay detention camps accused of war crimes and providing support to terrorism after throwing a grenade that killed a US soldier.
I'm usually not one for rough sentences, but really, why bother with this? These are people that are so delusional and stuck in their (intolerant) beliefs they're willing to die for them. With no reasoning realistically possible, we'd probably be better off if people like these were simply killed. They're inhibiting... virtually everyone, and evolution along with them.
Part of the reason I wanted to start a discussion about this was to bring awareness to it. If you're not familiar with the case, it's not quite the same as the case against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed...
Omar's father brought him to Afghanistan as a 15 year old boy, which is when he was captured. He allegedly threw the grenade which killed the medic. He has been imprisoned in Gitmo for 8 years, so far without sentencing... he's been allegedly abused (what some would consider tortured.)
I have a number of issues with this case and I've followed it nearly from the beginning... but my biggest issues are:
he was 15 when it happened, even if he's proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt this must be considered, as it would be in any other "murder" situation and also has many many precedents when considering the use of child soldiers. Besides this, how smart were you at 15? Were you impressionable and naive? Were you easily swayed? Probably, like the rest of us.
again, if he is guilty, he is merely guilty of killing a soldier (albeit a medic) in a warzone and while this may sound callous, all soldiers who go to war know the risks involved, don't victimize them... how many other coalition troops have died and no one else is held to account, how many AFGHANS (civilians or military) have been killed, and no NATO troops are being held up on murder charges?
And the last thing I'll say is that trials and the goings on at Gitmo are shady at best. If we are actually committed to the rule of law and equal justice, he'll be given a fair trial with all the evidence in Canada, as he's a Canadian citizen.
I may not agree with Omar Khadr ideology, but please remember:
1)That he should be considered a child soldier (he was fifteen when he was captured).
2)That he as been imprisoned for seven years (which is illegal, since he is considered by international laws as an child soldier) at Guantanamo Bay (this place don't even need a comment).
3)That he as been tortured (that's against Human's Rights) so is "confessions" are invalid at a trial.
4)That (according to nearly all humanitarian organization) he doesn't have access to a fair trial: he either plead guilty or he have an almost guaranteed life sentence.
5)That there was another insurgent fighter on location who could have thrown the grenade.
I heard something funny this morning in the news. Apparently, according to an American psychologist at Guantanamo Bay, Khadr's ideology has become more extreme since he was imprisoned seven years ago. Lol. They killed everyone around him, they captured him, they tortured him, they gave him an unfair trial, than they wonders why he hates them more than before. Those "extremist" wouldn't be so extreme if they weren't dealt with so brutally.
Did Americans ever tried to hold any sort of peace talks with the "terrorists"? Before the battle at the village of Ayub Kheyl, did anybody tried an alternative to armed combat? No. They just came and shot everybody in sight. Even if Khadr had thrown the grenade, even if you overlook the fact that he wasn't 18 when he was captured, is he really worse than the Americans? In my view, it's not just Khadr or any other "terrorists" that killed this soldier: George Bush and everyone who voted for him should also share some part of the guilt because it's them who send him to die, for no really good reasons. Please don't compare the war in Afghanistan and Iraq with WW2 (Yeah, that's for SouLCarveRR).
Part of the reason I wanted to start a discussion about this was to bring awareness to it. If you're not familiar with the case, it's not quite the same as the case against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed...
Omar's father brought him to Afghanistan as a 15 year old boy, which is when he was captured. He allegedly threw the grenade which killed the medic. He has been imprisoned in Gitmo for 8 years, so far without sentencing... he's been allegedly abused (what some would consider tortured.)
I have a number of issues with this case and I've followed it nearly from the beginning... but my biggest issues are:
he was 15 when it happened, even if he's proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt this must be considered, as it would be in any other "murder" situation and also has many many precedents when considering the use of child soldiers. Besides this, how smart were you at 15? Were you impressionable and naive? Were you easily swayed? Probably, like the rest of us.
again, if he is guilty, he is merely guilty of killing a soldier (albeit a medic) in a warzone and while this may sound callous, all soldiers who go to war know the risks involved, don't victimize them... how many other coalition troops have died and no one else is held to account, how many AFGHANS (civilians or military) have been killed, and no NATO troops are being held up on murder charges?
And the last thing I'll say is that trials and the goings on at Gitmo are shady at best. If we are actually committed to the rule of law and equal justice, he'll be given a fair trial with all the evidence in Canada, as he's a Canadian citizen.
But that won't happen.
To be fair, that might all be true, but that doesn't change the fact that what's happening right now sucks? Hence why I'm edgy to severe punishment. Imagine the fellow would just drop dead right now. Wouldn't pretty much everybody be better off? I realize it's harsh, but why does "I'm sorry Spot died Timmy, but that's nature running its course..." suddenly stop applying when it comes to humans?
It's a really thin line, to be honest. I'm not a fan of full blown anarchy but when man starts playing god is when things often go awry. I think I still reckon that the best form of 'punishment' would be a system of legalized karma, where the criminal's actions are repeated and instilled upon him. A quite literal eye for an eye, life for a life, broken window for a broken window, really.
I long ago adopted a "I dont give a crap" attitude. I dont care who died, who is suffering, who is being wronged. I just dont give a damn.
Thats not to say Im insensitive, but just indifferent to all the nonsense happening in the world.
Why should I care?.
Worrying about all this stuff is only burdensome and depressing. I also cant change or do anything about the situation. So why bother?
The saying "Mind your own business" is very much applicable. He has been dealt this karma/fate/destiny. Nothing we can do about it. Too bad for him. I dont mean to sound offensive or anything, So dont take it that way.
It's a really thin line, to be honest. I'm not a fan of full blown anarchy but when man starts playing god is when things often go awry. I think I still reckon that the best form of 'punishment' would be a system of legalized karma, where the criminal's actions are repeated and instilled upon him. A quite literal eye for an eye, life for a life, broken window for a broken window, really.
again, if he is guilty, he is merely guilty of killing a soldier (albeit a medic) in a warzone and while this may sound callous, all soldiers who go to war know the risks involved, don't victimize them... how many other coalition troops have died and no one else is held to account, how many AFGHANS (civilians or military) have been killed, and no NATO troops are being held up on murder charges?
The NATO is the superior side in this conflict. Thus they write the law.
If WWII had been won by the fascists we'd all be sitting here saying "Phew luckily the Communists and Capitalists didn't win the war back then".
Unfortunately the US government doesn't have to "care" about international rules (or even their own law) because of their great political strength and their secrecy.
They have the power to strip people from their human rights because there is no one who tries to stop them.
Not even the Canadian goverment wants this person back, probably because they know of the political warzone they'd enter by making this request.
Not that I support these religious zealots, but I would venture to say that "our" troops commited more war crimes than they did. But who is there to judge "us"?
I don't really understand your reply... who is playing God? Wouldn't you be playing God by deciding when he dies now as opposed to letting him pass through natural causes?
I understand what you're saying, and I actually agree to a point. My entire outlook on life is somewhat based around this principle, I think a lot of people's lives are, that's what keeps us sane. However, if you have the ability to create positive change, isn't it good to do so? I would argue that we always do, even in small ways... ie: this thread is bringing awareness to the injustices of this case, which in my opinion is basically a revenge trial steeped in racism and prejudice.
The US government doesn't have to care but that's just the point, that's why there are people willing to leak documents to Wikileaks, and snitch to reporters and whatnot... because someone needs to account for the crimes.
And the Canadian government actually does want Khadr back, just not the right part of the government. Harper's conservatives are ruining this fuckin country, seriously.
I hear you, I have the same attitude. The thing is just that it doesn't prevent me from discussing it. I'm not discussing this with an actual eye on the case, but because finding your opinion in extreme cases can help you make decisions easier in your own life.
Virtually, yup. Rape really is the one crime I always had some problems with, but really - I reckon that if you opened recruitment for people who want to legally commit rape and hand illegal rapists over to them, it could work. Either that or everyone would go on the legal rapist list. Like I said, it's an oddball - the technique works for pretty much everything else.
We'd be playing god by 'judging' the fellow and coming to the conclusion that his actions are good/bad. If we're scientific and cold, we can simply state "this person being alive is a bad thing for the majority of people who have come in contact with him, thus he should be dead". We can't measure the 'severity of his guilt' or similar symptoms, we can measure his use in the world right now.
Yuck, dude got a very raw deal in the ol deal of cards of life. Unfortunately it was such a raw deal his upbringing/education doesn't seem to let him understand exact what's wrong, and thus much like an errant animal that's done terrible things without knowing they're terrible...I don't mind if he's put down.
...but why should we be cold? And how can you judge a person's usefulness by one incident? This assumes people have no redeemable qualities? What if he serves his time, rehabilitates and then spends his twilight years speaking to young Muslims about the dangers of fundamentalism?
I know a guy (read his story) who did a total of 26 years for murder in Canada, and turned his life around. You would never guess that this guy did any kind of a bid like that, nor that he was once known as "the meanest man in prison." Point is: reform is possible, even in the worst cases.
Harsh yes, but what's the alternative? He'd been taught since birth to hate, that's a rather hard thing to undo. If the psychologists want a crack at him have at 'er, but I'm not betting a successful result.
I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying it's not worth it. If we'd want to reform this Omar, we'd spend years and TONS of time and money to judge him, give him a fitting punishment (to prolly no effect anyway), re-educate him, and then if we're extremely lucky he might end up being an 'average mind' expert in a specific field where he can help along people who require assistance. People tend to say that a live's worth is unmeasurable, and while I think I agree with that, does that mean we have to spend millions of resources just for a small chance to redeem one?
Seriously your putting too much thought into this.
If someone were to threw a grenade at someone I know.. I would kill them out right, with out a thought.
This is what we call an "enemy".
Now on the civilian side of things we like to think of was as "humane" but its really not. The point of trials.... it is just a show....
So his father taught him to kill people..... good job on his fathers part..... do we try and re-train mad dogs? No we dont... we put them down with out any thought about it really. Sure it might hurt the owners feelings but.... this animal would be considered a real threat if allowed to live.
You guys should realize that rape, murder, and everything else under the sun are part of war. War will never be waged with out these things happening.
Thats the point of Nuclear deterents. They lower the possibility of war to the point where the conflicts we now find ourselfs engaged in are small enough in scale that all these petty acts that come along with war seem like a big deal..... Trust me they were much much worse before the advent of Nuclear weapons.
Also a civilians commiting murder is quite different then a father and son taking a camping trip to afganistan to kill USA forces. If they want to pretend that they are a "resistance force".... I say we treat them as such....
Lets look at china for example..... can anybody tell me what the chineese did for 1000's of years to any form of resistance to thier empire's rule?
I have to ask Mozared, are you basing this on any kind of psychiatric experience? Cause you seem to be making these assumptions like you know what the outcome would be. How can you know what chance this kid has at a different life? How could you guess the "percentage" of success? How can you possibly know? You're only guessing.
I have probably no more experience treating people than you do, but I could guess that because he was a child when he was taken to Afghanistan, it wasn't necessarily what he wanted to do... only what was pressured on him by his family. I would guess that if he were treated humanely and shown that he could have a different life when he reenters society, if the opportunity were available, he would take it. I would guess that like many people leaving Afghanistan and for that matter, any of the Communist countries between 1945 and 1990 that he would find our way of life is not necessarily the best, but it's not bad either.
But neither of us know. Besides that, you realize killing prisoners is often much, much more expensive than letting them serve a life-term because of the number of appeals, investigations, re-examinations of all the facts, etc that are likely to happen? If he's does end up doing life, why not at least try to prepare him to re-enter society, so that he won't be a menace when he comes out, and maybe he can have a better quality of life?
I'm not sure if his father ever taught him to kill people... where is that coming from? And you realize this is the second time in this thread someone is comparing him to an animal? You realize this is a form of racism, yea? You're dehumanizing him. He is the same as you, only he grew up in different circumstances. He is not a mindless killing machine, at the time, was a 15 year old boy who was taken to Afghanistan by his family. It is alleged that he threw the grenade, but there is certainly other evidence that he is not guilty.
Rape is not part of war. That is why it is condemned by every country in the UN when it happens. ie: the situation in the DRC. Is that being shaken off as just "part of war"? No. People are opposed to it. There is absolutely no reason why the two have to go hand-in-hand. Murder in war is redundant. There is no such thing, unless you're killing civilians, that's partly why this trial is ridiculous. A soldier died in combat, that is not murder.
War, particularly this one is not "small scale." Neither of these wars have been small scale. We just happen to have a bigger stick than either the Iraqis or the Afghans. Look at the number of deaths (both civilian and combatant) on the other side. In Iraq, it's nearly 100,000. In Afghanistan I'm not certain but I know its in the tens of thousands. Look at the number of troops deployed in each country. Not small scale at all. You're probably comparing them to the benchmark of World War 2, which was much larger in scale than any other war before or since... so every war after that is relatively smaller in terms of casualties, troop deployment, etc. The point is that "Nuclear deterents" have nothing to do with this. We have better hardware and training than both countries we've invaded.
I would argue a larger factor in these issues becoming mainstream or a "big deal" is the dawn of the information age. Normal people (civilians at home) didn't know about it, or could at least avoid seeing it, until now.
Your example of China is kinda moot... how are you comparing the barbarism at any point in Chinese Imperial history (until relatively recent history) to the treatment of this 15 year old boy?
I am a racist and I see nothing wrong with it. ..... But its not really a racist to call him an animal.... his actions (throwing a grenade) are animalistic. War is animalistic ( did you know just about all forms of life on this planet wage some sort of war).
I prefer barbarism over being Politally Correct.
Normal people would know more about the wars if they cared. If they cared then we might not be over there in the first place. The problem with the general public is that they pay no attention to what is going on in the world. And then they find out about all the nasty stuff that comes along with war they get upset and call it wrong...... Well they shoulda been paying more attention in the first place.
I can tell you feel simpathy for this guy. I dont... and I wouldnt expect any any simpathy if i was in his shoes.... I wouldnt have done what he did.
So... I'm sure this isn't the proper forum to be having political discussions on, but I know there are a lot of intelligent people on these forums from all over the world, so I thought I'd see where everyone's at on this.
If you're not familiar with Omar Khadr, he's a Canadian-Afghan who:
If you've been following the case, what are your thoughts on the recent developments?
All i can say is that if I were in charge this guy wouldnt have ever been put in a cell.
Coffins are better places to put people like this.... then again... a coffin might even be too good for the likes of these.
I know we didnt give no damn NAZI a god damn civil trial in the midst of WW2. Thats what bullets are for.
btw Im a veteran
Uh then how would you even know if you killed the right guy...
also, I guess you've never heard of the Nuremburg tribunal or any of the hundreds of Nazi war crimes trials.
Well it's an off-topic forum, this topic is rather off, so yeah, go ahead. Just keep the discussion civil.
I'm usually not one for rough sentences, but really, why bother with this? These are people that are so delusional and stuck in their (intolerant) beliefs they're willing to die for them. With no reasoning realistically possible, we'd probably be better off if people like these were simply killed. They're inhibiting... virtually everyone, and evolution along with them.
@Mozared: Go
Part of the reason I wanted to start a discussion about this was to bring awareness to it. If you're not familiar with the case, it's not quite the same as the case against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed...
Omar's father brought him to Afghanistan as a 15 year old boy, which is when he was captured. He allegedly threw the grenade which killed the medic. He has been imprisoned in Gitmo for 8 years, so far without sentencing... he's been allegedly abused (what some would consider tortured.)
I have a number of issues with this case and I've followed it nearly from the beginning... but my biggest issues are:
And the last thing I'll say is that trials and the goings on at Gitmo are shady at best. If we are actually committed to the rule of law and equal justice, he'll be given a fair trial with all the evidence in Canada, as he's a Canadian citizen.
But that won't happen.
I may not agree with Omar Khadr ideology, but please remember:
1)That he should be considered a child soldier (he was fifteen when he was captured).
2)That he as been imprisoned for seven years (which is illegal, since he is considered by international laws as an child soldier) at Guantanamo Bay (this place don't even need a comment).
3)That he as been tortured (that's against Human's Rights) so is "confessions" are invalid at a trial.
4)That (according to nearly all humanitarian organization) he doesn't have access to a fair trial: he either plead guilty or he have an almost guaranteed life sentence.
5)That there was another insurgent fighter on location who could have thrown the grenade.
I heard something funny this morning in the news. Apparently, according to an American psychologist at Guantanamo Bay, Khadr's ideology has become more extreme since he was imprisoned seven years ago. Lol. They killed everyone around him, they captured him, they tortured him, they gave him an unfair trial, than they wonders why he hates them more than before. Those "extremist" wouldn't be so extreme if they weren't dealt with so brutally.
Did Americans ever tried to hold any sort of peace talks with the "terrorists"? Before the battle at the village of Ayub Kheyl, did anybody tried an alternative to armed combat? No. They just came and shot everybody in sight. Even if Khadr had thrown the grenade, even if you overlook the fact that he wasn't 18 when he was captured, is he really worse than the Americans? In my view, it's not just Khadr or any other "terrorists" that killed this soldier: George Bush and everyone who voted for him should also share some part of the guilt because it's them who send him to die, for no really good reasons. Please don't compare the war in Afghanistan and Iraq with WW2 (Yeah, that's for SouLCarveRR).
It's just my opinion, anyway.
To be fair, that might all be true, but that doesn't change the fact that what's happening right now sucks? Hence why I'm edgy to severe punishment. Imagine the fellow would just drop dead right now. Wouldn't pretty much everybody be better off? I realize it's harsh, but why does "I'm sorry Spot died Timmy, but that's nature running its course..." suddenly stop applying when it comes to humans?
It's a really thin line, to be honest. I'm not a fan of full blown anarchy but when man starts playing god is when things often go awry. I think I still reckon that the best form of 'punishment' would be a system of legalized karma, where the criminal's actions are repeated and instilled upon him. A quite literal eye for an eye, life for a life, broken window for a broken window, really.
I long ago adopted a "I dont give a crap" attitude. I dont care who died, who is suffering, who is being wronged. I just dont give a damn.
Thats not to say Im insensitive, but just indifferent to all the nonsense happening in the world.
Why should I care?.
Worrying about all this stuff is only burdensome and depressing. I also cant change or do anything about the situation. So why bother?
The saying "Mind your own business" is very much applicable. He has been dealt this karma/fate/destiny. Nothing we can do about it. Too bad for him. I dont mean to sound offensive or anything, So dont take it that way.
If I rape you, you get to rape me?
The NATO is the superior side in this conflict. Thus they write the law.
If WWII had been won by the fascists we'd all be sitting here saying "Phew luckily the Communists and Capitalists didn't win the war back then".
Unfortunately the US government doesn't have to "care" about international rules (or even their own law) because of their great political strength and their secrecy.
They have the power to strip people from their human rights because there is no one who tries to stop them.
Not even the Canadian goverment wants this person back, probably because they know of the political warzone they'd enter by making this request.
Not that I support these religious zealots, but I would venture to say that "our" troops commited more war crimes than they did. But who is there to judge "us"?
@Mozared: Go
I don't really understand your reply... who is playing God? Wouldn't you be playing God by deciding when he dies now as opposed to letting him pass through natural causes?
@EternalWraith: Go
I understand what you're saying, and I actually agree to a point. My entire outlook on life is somewhat based around this principle, I think a lot of people's lives are, that's what keeps us sane. However, if you have the ability to create positive change, isn't it good to do so? I would argue that we always do, even in small ways... ie: this thread is bringing awareness to the injustices of this case, which in my opinion is basically a revenge trial steeped in racism and prejudice.
@s3rius: Go
It was a bit of a rhetorical question lol
The US government doesn't have to care but that's just the point, that's why there are people willing to leak documents to Wikileaks, and snitch to reporters and whatnot... because someone needs to account for the crimes.
And the Canadian government actually does want Khadr back, just not the right part of the government. Harper's conservatives are ruining this fuckin country, seriously.
@EternalWraith: Go
I hear you, I have the same attitude. The thing is just that it doesn't prevent me from discussing it. I'm not discussing this with an actual eye on the case, but because finding your opinion in extreme cases can help you make decisions easier in your own life.
@RileyStarcraft: Go
Virtually, yup. Rape really is the one crime I always had some problems with, but really - I reckon that if you opened recruitment for people who want to legally commit rape and hand illegal rapists over to them, it could work. Either that or everyone would go on the legal rapist list. Like I said, it's an oddball - the technique works for pretty much everything else.
@QMJ3: Go
We'd be playing god by 'judging' the fellow and coming to the conclusion that his actions are good/bad. If we're scientific and cold, we can simply state "this person being alive is a bad thing for the majority of people who have come in contact with him, thus he should be dead". We can't measure the 'severity of his guilt' or similar symptoms, we can measure his use in the world right now.
Yuck, dude got a very raw deal in the ol deal of cards of life. Unfortunately it was such a raw deal his upbringing/education doesn't seem to let him understand exact what's wrong, and thus much like an errant animal that's done terrible things without knowing they're terrible...I don't mind if he's put down.
/Canadian Not a 'fake' vet like perhaps others
@Mozared: Go
...but why should we be cold? And how can you judge a person's usefulness by one incident? This assumes people have no redeemable qualities? What if he serves his time, rehabilitates and then spends his twilight years speaking to young Muslims about the dangers of fundamentalism?
I know a guy (read his story) who did a total of 26 years for murder in Canada, and turned his life around. You would never guess that this guy did any kind of a bid like that, nor that he was once known as "the meanest man in prison." Point is: reform is possible, even in the worst cases.
@BumpInTheNight: Go
That's harsh, no? You see him as an animal then? Also I don't understand your last comment.
Harsh yes, but what's the alternative? He'd been taught since birth to hate, that's a rather hard thing to undo. If the psychologists want a crack at him have at 'er, but I'm not betting a successful result.
@QMJ3: Go
I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying it's not worth it. If we'd want to reform this Omar, we'd spend years and TONS of time and money to judge him, give him a fitting punishment (to prolly no effect anyway), re-educate him, and then if we're extremely lucky he might end up being an 'average mind' expert in a specific field where he can help along people who require assistance. People tend to say that a live's worth is unmeasurable, and while I think I agree with that, does that mean we have to spend millions of resources just for a small chance to redeem one?
Seriously your putting too much thought into this.
If someone were to threw a grenade at someone I know.. I would kill them out right, with out a thought.
This is what we call an "enemy".
Now on the civilian side of things we like to think of was as "humane" but its really not. The point of trials.... it is just a show....
So his father taught him to kill people..... good job on his fathers part..... do we try and re-train mad dogs? No we dont... we put them down with out any thought about it really. Sure it might hurt the owners feelings but.... this animal would be considered a real threat if allowed to live.
You guys should realize that rape, murder, and everything else under the sun are part of war. War will never be waged with out these things happening.
Thats the point of Nuclear deterents. They lower the possibility of war to the point where the conflicts we now find ourselfs engaged in are small enough in scale that all these petty acts that come along with war seem like a big deal..... Trust me they were much much worse before the advent of Nuclear weapons.
Also a civilians commiting murder is quite different then a father and son taking a camping trip to afganistan to kill USA forces. If they want to pretend that they are a "resistance force".... I say we treat them as such....
Lets look at china for example..... can anybody tell me what the chineese did for 1000's of years to any form of resistance to thier empire's rule?
@Mozared: Go
I have to ask Mozared, are you basing this on any kind of psychiatric experience? Cause you seem to be making these assumptions like you know what the outcome would be. How can you know what chance this kid has at a different life? How could you guess the "percentage" of success? How can you possibly know? You're only guessing.
I have probably no more experience treating people than you do, but I could guess that because he was a child when he was taken to Afghanistan, it wasn't necessarily what he wanted to do... only what was pressured on him by his family. I would guess that if he were treated humanely and shown that he could have a different life when he reenters society, if the opportunity were available, he would take it. I would guess that like many people leaving Afghanistan and for that matter, any of the Communist countries between 1945 and 1990 that he would find our way of life is not necessarily the best, but it's not bad either.
But neither of us know. Besides that, you realize killing prisoners is often much, much more expensive than letting them serve a life-term because of the number of appeals, investigations, re-examinations of all the facts, etc that are likely to happen? If he's does end up doing life, why not at least try to prepare him to re-enter society, so that he won't be a menace when he comes out, and maybe he can have a better quality of life?
@SouLCarveRR: Go
I'm not sure if his father ever taught him to kill people... where is that coming from? And you realize this is the second time in this thread someone is comparing him to an animal? You realize this is a form of racism, yea? You're dehumanizing him. He is the same as you, only he grew up in different circumstances. He is not a mindless killing machine, at the time, was a 15 year old boy who was taken to Afghanistan by his family. It is alleged that he threw the grenade, but there is certainly other evidence that he is not guilty.
Rape is not part of war. That is why it is condemned by every country in the UN when it happens. ie: the situation in the DRC. Is that being shaken off as just "part of war"? No. People are opposed to it. There is absolutely no reason why the two have to go hand-in-hand. Murder in war is redundant. There is no such thing, unless you're killing civilians, that's partly why this trial is ridiculous. A soldier died in combat, that is not murder.
War, particularly this one is not "small scale." Neither of these wars have been small scale. We just happen to have a bigger stick than either the Iraqis or the Afghans. Look at the number of deaths (both civilian and combatant) on the other side. In Iraq, it's nearly 100,000. In Afghanistan I'm not certain but I know its in the tens of thousands. Look at the number of troops deployed in each country. Not small scale at all. You're probably comparing them to the benchmark of World War 2, which was much larger in scale than any other war before or since... so every war after that is relatively smaller in terms of casualties, troop deployment, etc. The point is that "Nuclear deterents" have nothing to do with this. We have better hardware and training than both countries we've invaded.
I would argue a larger factor in these issues becoming mainstream or a "big deal" is the dawn of the information age. Normal people (civilians at home) didn't know about it, or could at least avoid seeing it, until now.
Your example of China is kinda moot... how are you comparing the barbarism at any point in Chinese Imperial history (until relatively recent history) to the treatment of this 15 year old boy?
@QMJ3: Go
I am a racist and I see nothing wrong with it. ..... But its not really a racist to call him an animal.... his actions (throwing a grenade) are animalistic. War is animalistic ( did you know just about all forms of life on this planet wage some sort of war).
I prefer barbarism over being Politally Correct.
Normal people would know more about the wars if they cared. If they cared then we might not be over there in the first place. The problem with the general public is that they pay no attention to what is going on in the world. And then they find out about all the nasty stuff that comes along with war they get upset and call it wrong...... Well they shoulda been paying more attention in the first place.
I can tell you feel simpathy for this guy. I dont... and I wouldnt expect any any simpathy if i was in his shoes.... I wouldnt have done what he did.