I will try not to make this a wall of text. I enjoy making SP mission maps for games. I have done so with other editors in the past and this SC2 editor is new to me. I originally did not want to switch over to it because I enjoy the graphics better in the C&C3 Woldbuilder but the population there is dying and this seems to be where it is at. A few answers and general info from some of the more experienced map makers would be appreciated.
After a week of reading through the site, watching videos and reading posts this seems to be a pretty good editor. However I have noticed a lack of semi-professional quality SP mission maps or campaigns released. Why? Are three some fundamental problems with SP mission maps with cut scenes(whether they be in game scripting or attached videos and audio) that make publishing a map difficult? Can you publish a large map outside of battlenet?
Is there a way to save data from one map to use in another for a real campaign? I read up on banks so it seems like there is but I have not found any real implemented campaigns to test whether it actually works in a real implemented solution.
Is there any fundamental issues with the builder to overcome in producing a *semi-professional map? *What I mean is a large very scripted map with at least an hour of high quality scripted cut scenes or imported videos and audio to tell the story?
I think that is about it for high level questions, I am just trying to gauge the readiness of this tool for real development effort. Having said that I have no doubt that it is amazing I am just not confident yet that it is ready for full blown development. I am cautions moving forward because deciding to take on a large project is a huge investment of time and at 40 I do not have much time to waste, LOL.
LITTLE ABOUT ME
I am a professional programmer that enjoys making SP mission on the side. My last project was quite fun and gained some acclaim from EA and GameReplays:
I very much enjoyed the output of C&C3 Worldbuilder, however the tool itself was a nightmare! I am looking forward to SC2 editor from what I have read. It looks to be much more supported and stable, though I cannot speak for personal experience yet.
What I will miss about the C&C3 engine is it more realistic graphics and feel in regards to cut scenes. See example:
I have many more examples on my You Tube site. The unit animations are smoother with more depth in their interaction with the map such as the tank’s treed marks and dust created from movement. The death animations and damaged unit graphics are stunning. So far in SC2 the deaths are evanescent with a simple unrealistic explosion to replace the unit. I imagine some of this is their “style” and some can be contributed to more focus on multi player and competiveness gaming along with larger support for a variety of PC configurations. I cannot blame them for that they do know how to create a population but never the less I will miss the graphics of C&C.
I will also miss the air units mechanics of the C&C world. I believe they are more in parallel to reality than the way SC2 implements things. SC2 air units are simply ground units that hover and have no terrain limitations. Their animations are dull and they play less of a supportive role than air units normally would. But that being said I do LOVE the Banshee.
In the C&C world the air units are very paralleled with their role in today’s military. They are support units for tactile striking, can be summoned for strategic targets, are quick yet limited with fuel and armament. They also are not as nibble because of their speed and have large turning radius that can work against them. I love how the C&C folks implemented their mechanics to fit these roles in both use and weaknesses. Plus their animations in con trials, smoke, hovering, and deaths is amazing!
Lastly I will miss the structure animations in regards to the immersion they offer for both multi and single player. I would say especially in SP as when making cut scenes it is awesome to have tanks actually come out of an opening garage and into the world instead of them just magically appearing next to the building. The same goes for infantry exiting a opening door on a barracks or aircraft either taking off and landing on an airport or rising from a opening hanger. These little things add so much immersion to a scene when trying to tell a story. I am unsure why SC2 decided not to implement these types of things as other RTS games do, perhaps it is also because the focus is competitive e-sports gaming and simply adds more overhead to the game?
Enough of the complaints and on to the upside! Population and support… holy cow the Mapster web site and the tutorials blizzard has been releasing have been amazing! SC2’s population is far larger than C&C and I hope that also equates to more people enjoying a mapster’s hard work! The ability to insert videos and audio into a map is incredible! I have not seen it yet but I know it will come but it seems like you could use other maps to create videos and record and them add into your Sp mission map as video to tell help tell a story. For instance a scene of a space station showing a departing BC on its way to your destination for support. I am excited to try to implement these types of things. Even though C&C does a good job with animations and such SC2’s infantry are very polished. I love the marine! Such detail for such a tiny unit! Oh that reminds me no more dealing with “squads” that the C&C games implement. I have never like that mechanic. Now every single tiny unit is its own unit for control, as it should be, Hehe.
Thanks everyone, in advance, for any answers, guidance, advice, and etc for using this tool.
"Is there any fundamental issues with the builder to overcome in producing a *semi-professional map? *What I mean is a large very scripted map with at least an hour of high quality scripted cut scenes or imported videos and audio to tell the story?"
yes.. loads of issues.. blizz capping (size number inter dependencies ... time of upload ... lack of editor art tools (sort of)
add ons got to be cleared by blizz ... if they pass they may still "fine" you for it...
well, as for "technical shortcomings..." if u go full on mod i'm not sure ;)
i'm not the smartest drone of the pack, certainly not the earliest on galaxy :)
again
hf, galaxy (whatever fuck no lan its shortcomings is a templatefor ANY game (pong mario u name it... i've foregone ladder for jade's cycles and i'm in love/awe with such an editor that allows you to say:
i will never buy another license anymore (just the add ons) since i'll produce ANY game i want with it
Each engine has its in and out. However I believe pursuing sc2 is a better choice now due to increased support from blizzard (now that cnc communitiy is dieing).
There is a lack of good production quality campaign released here probably due to being unable to beat the original game campaign, with tech choice, high poly model cutscene and interesting gameplay. Couple of team doing remake of sc1 campaign and what not.
The other problem would be publishing limit. If the map cannot be published, it cannot be so popular no matter what high quality or production value. (except might be popular in the pirate community). The limiting storage is expected to improve with coming expansion. With smart uses of mod file with assets and series of map file depends on them I doubt you cant create a high quality campaign with such limit. (Each file can be up to 10MB and you can even have multiple account to upload more mod file).
About cutscene, the editor has already supported very high quality type of cutscene similiar to the original campaign, but high quality model is expected, without it, close in on unit doesnt look that good.
It might not take too much time to learn this editor, jump in with trial and error, tutorials on this site and you can make campaign within a day.
I'm sad that due to the way the industry evolved, single player game is no longer valued anymore.
Hound's response seems like it was run through google translator. Regardless, to answer OP's question. I have a hard time thinking that there is ANYTHING the C and C editor could do that this one could not.
The reason that I believe there are not any high production qualities though is not due to the tool. I believe it's more related to the modding community. I can't speak for non-english users, but I feel the modding community for this game is much smaller than the initial one I saw in Warcraft 3. And while the editor is extremely powerful, it is also quite complex. Even simple maps are quite time consuming to make. I believe this has had an effect on released maps.
I will try to answer some questions:
However I have noticed a lack of semi-professional quality SP mission maps or campaigns released. Why?
It seems that Starcraft has a focus on Multiplayer gameplay. There are a few campaigns out there, but no unique or semi-professional ones that I have seen.
Are three some fundamental problems with SP mission maps with cut scenes(whether they be in game scripting or attached videos and audio) that make publishing a map difficult?
The editor fully supports attached video and audio. That said, with publishing limits (What is it... like 50MB I think). You may not be able to publish a large mod.
Can you publish a large map outside of battlenet?
Yes. But the map would likely have a very hard time getting exposure since no one looks for maps outside of Bnet.
Is there a way to save data from one map to use in another for a real campaign?
Yes banks will do that. I do not believe that multiplayer campaigns are possible yet tho.
Is there any fundamental issues with the builder to overcome in producing a *semi-professional map?
Time investment and skill are the only issues to overcome I think.
I think that is about it for high level questions, I am just trying to gauge the readiness of this tool for real development effort
Personally I believe this tool has the potential to be simply the best development tool for mods out there. That said, Blizzard needs to step it up, releasing art tools, correcting bugs, and adding things to the game (Online banks) to really make it an amazing tool. Personally it seems like every patch brings a new feature to the editor, so i am waiting to start my mod.
What I will miss about the C&C3 engine is it more realistic graphics and feel in regards to cut scenes
I believe the Starcraft engine is far more realistic and has better graphics. What you are noting is the stylistic art direction of starcraft, it looks cartoonish. If you used your own custom models you could create a far more realistic experience.
I will also miss the air units mechanics of the C&C world.
There is a data editor in the Galaxy editor that allows you to make customized units. I feel you should be able to completely shift the role of air units simply by using that.
Lastly I will miss the structure animations in regards to the immersion
This isn't a limitation of the editor, just a limitiation of the current models in the game. Custom models could do these things. Even importing models from games that fit your needs into the editor is always an option. (although it may be against Battlenets rules)
As mentioned, I think the main problem is publishing and uploading and that jazz. One does not simply upload a campaign that flows from map to map to bnet, afaik, due to the publishing limitations and the fact that they're always played online. The best way currently to release a campaign (aside from mod files, which I know little about) seems to be by just releasing a loose set of levels that one must download manually and then open with Sc2.
The SC1 remake campaign uses a method to switch from map to map directly. Does not work for me, but thats probably a path issue; it works for other people.
Its an offline campaign, though, about 200 MB for Terran + Zerg campaigns.
The SC1 remake campaign uses a method to switch from map to map directly. Does not work for me, but thats probably a path issue; it works for other people.
Its an offline campaign, though, about 200 MB for Terran + Zerg campaigns.
Is this the norm... Sp mission map runs in the 100's of megs? Is this why nobody is making them because they can not be published on BN?
Can someone give me an estimate, if you do a large single map and have say... 3 or maybe 4 imported new MODELS what king of MB footprint would you be looking at?
Just curious, I do this as a hobby and all my maps in the past were simple forum releases, never some official published todo, but it is nice to know what is available and what is not, :)
Fully textured models, properly compressed, range at 0.5-1 MB afaik (but I am not an expert).
The SC1 remake campaign is that big, because it imported almost all soundfiles, including all the voice acting from "cinematic" scenes, start conversations, original soundtracks for all races, attack sounds, unit soundsets etc etc.
Audio files in this dimensions bloat the map of course.
Fully textured models, properly compressed, range at 0.5-1 MB afaik (but I am not an expert).
The SC1 remake campaign is that big, because it imported almost all soundfiles, including all the voice acting from "cinematic" scenes, start conversations, original soundtracks for all races, attack sounds, unit soundsets etc etc.
Audio files in this dimensions bloat the map of course.
Ahh thanks or the explanation, sound is BIG. I have always used the built in unit sounds, but good to know when going forward. Kueken531 your a wealth of information, I see posts from you all over the place, glad your around.
I know you have seen me ask a zillion and one questions, this tool is new to me and as I am old with a ton of responsibilities in the world I really enjoy the short cuts the forums have always provided. And I also know down the road I will be contributing instead of leaching myself, ;)
Hello! I don't know if this is the right place to ask this but:
I'm wondering how people make serverwide leader boards for their maps. Is there a tutorial on how to make them? Thanks :)
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MAP MAKING QUESTIONS
I will try not to make this a wall of text. I enjoy making SP mission maps for games. I have done so with other editors in the past and this SC2 editor is new to me. I originally did not want to switch over to it because I enjoy the graphics better in the C&C3 Woldbuilder but the population there is dying and this seems to be where it is at. A few answers and general info from some of the more experienced map makers would be appreciated.
After a week of reading through the site, watching videos and reading posts this seems to be a pretty good editor. However I have noticed a lack of semi-professional quality SP mission maps or campaigns released. Why? Are three some fundamental problems with SP mission maps with cut scenes(whether they be in game scripting or attached videos and audio) that make publishing a map difficult? Can you publish a large map outside of battlenet?
Is there a way to save data from one map to use in another for a real campaign? I read up on banks so it seems like there is but I have not found any real implemented campaigns to test whether it actually works in a real implemented solution.
Is there any fundamental issues with the builder to overcome in producing a *semi-professional map? *What I mean is a large very scripted map with at least an hour of high quality scripted cut scenes or imported videos and audio to tell the story?
I think that is about it for high level questions, I am just trying to gauge the readiness of this tool for real development effort. Having said that I have no doubt that it is amazing I am just not confident yet that it is ready for full blown development. I am cautions moving forward because deciding to take on a large project is a huge investment of time and at 40 I do not have much time to waste, LOL.
LITTLE ABOUT ME
I am a professional programmer that enjoys making SP mission on the side. My last project was quite fun and gained some acclaim from EA and GameReplays:
EA portalise: http://portal.commandandconquer.com/portal/site/cnc/article/detail?contentId=a077ddd4852c1210VgnVCM100000100d2c0aRCRD
GameReplays portalise: http://www.gamereplays.org/kaneswrath/portals.php?show=page&name=kanes-wrath-single-player-map-shaka-zulu
GameReplays Walk through, dev notes, and interview: http://www.gamereplays.org/kaneswrath/portals.php?show=page&name=shaka-zulu-walkthrough
C&C3 and STARCRAFT 2
I very much enjoyed the output of C&C3 Worldbuilder, however the tool itself was a nightmare! I am looking forward to SC2 editor from what I have read. It looks to be much more supported and stable, though I cannot speak for personal experience yet.
What I will miss about the C&C3 engine is it more realistic graphics and feel in regards to cut scenes. See example:
I have many more examples on my You Tube site. The unit animations are smoother with more depth in their interaction with the map such as the tank’s treed marks and dust created from movement. The death animations and damaged unit graphics are stunning. So far in SC2 the deaths are evanescent with a simple unrealistic explosion to replace the unit. I imagine some of this is their “style” and some can be contributed to more focus on multi player and competiveness gaming along with larger support for a variety of PC configurations. I cannot blame them for that they do know how to create a population but never the less I will miss the graphics of C&C.
I will also miss the air units mechanics of the C&C world. I believe they are more in parallel to reality than the way SC2 implements things. SC2 air units are simply ground units that hover and have no terrain limitations. Their animations are dull and they play less of a supportive role than air units normally would. But that being said I do LOVE the Banshee.
In the C&C world the air units are very paralleled with their role in today’s military. They are support units for tactile striking, can be summoned for strategic targets, are quick yet limited with fuel and armament. They also are not as nibble because of their speed and have large turning radius that can work against them. I love how the C&C folks implemented their mechanics to fit these roles in both use and weaknesses. Plus their animations in con trials, smoke, hovering, and deaths is amazing!
Lastly I will miss the structure animations in regards to the immersion they offer for both multi and single player. I would say especially in SP as when making cut scenes it is awesome to have tanks actually come out of an opening garage and into the world instead of them just magically appearing next to the building. The same goes for infantry exiting a opening door on a barracks or aircraft either taking off and landing on an airport or rising from a opening hanger. These little things add so much immersion to a scene when trying to tell a story. I am unsure why SC2 decided not to implement these types of things as other RTS games do, perhaps it is also because the focus is competitive e-sports gaming and simply adds more overhead to the game?
Enough of the complaints and on to the upside! Population and support… holy cow the Mapster web site and the tutorials blizzard has been releasing have been amazing! SC2’s population is far larger than C&C and I hope that also equates to more people enjoying a mapster’s hard work! The ability to insert videos and audio into a map is incredible! I have not seen it yet but I know it will come but it seems like you could use other maps to create videos and record and them add into your Sp mission map as video to tell help tell a story. For instance a scene of a space station showing a departing BC on its way to your destination for support. I am excited to try to implement these types of things. Even though C&C does a good job with animations and such SC2’s infantry are very polished. I love the marine! Such detail for such a tiny unit! Oh that reminds me no more dealing with “squads” that the C&C games implement. I have never like that mechanic. Now every single tiny unit is its own unit for control, as it should be, Hehe.
Thanks everyone, in advance, for any answers, guidance, advice, and etc for using this tool.
-B8factor
welcome (my only advice glhf :) )
"Is there any fundamental issues with the builder to overcome in producing a *semi-professional map? *What I mean is a large very scripted map with at least an hour of high quality scripted cut scenes or imported videos and audio to tell the story?"
yes.. loads of issues.. blizz capping (size number inter dependencies ... time of upload ... lack of editor art tools (sort of)
add ons got to be cleared by blizz ... if they pass they may still "fine" you for it...
well, as for "technical shortcomings..." if u go full on mod i'm not sure ;)
i'm not the smartest drone of the pack, certainly not the earliest on galaxy :)
again
hf, galaxy (whatever fuck no lan its shortcomings is a templatefor ANY game (pong mario u name it... i've foregone ladder for jade's cycles and i'm in love/awe with such an editor that allows you to say:
i will never buy another license anymore (just the add ons) since i'll produce ANY game i want with it
@b8factor: Go
Each engine has its in and out. However I believe pursuing sc2 is a better choice now due to increased support from blizzard (now that cnc communitiy is dieing).
There is a lack of good production quality campaign released here probably due to being unable to beat the original game campaign, with tech choice, high poly model cutscene and interesting gameplay. Couple of team doing remake of sc1 campaign and what not.
The other problem would be publishing limit. If the map cannot be published, it cannot be so popular no matter what high quality or production value. (except might be popular in the pirate community). The limiting storage is expected to improve with coming expansion. With smart uses of mod file with assets and series of map file depends on them I doubt you cant create a high quality campaign with such limit. (Each file can be up to 10MB and you can even have multiple account to upload more mod file).
About cutscene, the editor has already supported very high quality type of cutscene similiar to the original campaign, but high quality model is expected, without it, close in on unit doesnt look that good.
It might not take too much time to learn this editor, jump in with trial and error, tutorials on this site and you can make campaign within a day.
I'm sad that due to the way the industry evolved, single player game is no longer valued anymore.
Hound's response seems like it was run through google translator. Regardless, to answer OP's question. I have a hard time thinking that there is ANYTHING the C and C editor could do that this one could not.
The reason that I believe there are not any high production qualities though is not due to the tool. I believe it's more related to the modding community. I can't speak for non-english users, but I feel the modding community for this game is much smaller than the initial one I saw in Warcraft 3. And while the editor is extremely powerful, it is also quite complex. Even simple maps are quite time consuming to make. I believe this has had an effect on released maps.
I will try to answer some questions:
yeah i love you too
As mentioned, I think the main problem is publishing and uploading and that jazz. One does not simply upload a campaign that flows from map to map to bnet, afaik, due to the publishing limitations and the fact that they're always played online. The best way currently to release a campaign (aside from mod files, which I know little about) seems to be by just releasing a loose set of levels that one must download manually and then open with Sc2.
The SC1 remake campaign uses a method to switch from map to map directly. Does not work for me, but thats probably a path issue; it works for other people.
Its an offline campaign, though, about 200 MB for Terran + Zerg campaigns.
Is this the norm... Sp mission map runs in the 100's of megs? Is this why nobody is making them because they can not be published on BN?
Can someone give me an estimate, if you do a large single map and have say... 3 or maybe 4 imported new MODELS what king of MB footprint would you be looking at?
Just curious, I do this as a hobby and all my maps in the past were simple forum releases, never some official published todo, but it is nice to know what is available and what is not, :)
Fully textured models, properly compressed, range at 0.5-1 MB afaik (but I am not an expert).
The SC1 remake campaign is that big, because it imported almost all soundfiles, including all the voice acting from "cinematic" scenes, start conversations, original soundtracks for all races, attack sounds, unit soundsets etc etc.
Audio files in this dimensions bloat the map of course.
Ahh thanks or the explanation, sound is BIG. I have always used the built in unit sounds, but good to know when going forward. Kueken531 your a wealth of information, I see posts from you all over the place, glad your around.
I know you have seen me ask a zillion and one questions, this tool is new to me and as I am old with a ton of responsibilities in the world I really enjoy the short cuts the forums have always provided. And I also know down the road I will be contributing instead of leaching myself, ;)
Hello! I don't know if this is the right place to ask this but: I'm wondering how people make serverwide leader boards for their maps. Is there a tutorial on how to make them? Thanks :)