First of all, I do believe this belongs here in off topic general chat (thanks Molsterr) as it is intended for debate. (Theres an idea Rodrigo) It doesn't really belong with data or galaxy, since it concerns both.
What I have attached to this thread is a spell coded entirely in Custom Script (not GUI), similar to how JASS spells were done back in WC3. It's open source so anyone can feel free to play with it if they like. But be warned, Its not well documented at this point and there will be bugs as it is still in its alpha stages, but its still usable. Constructive criticism on how this code can be improved is more than welcome. But I'm afraid I won't be able to recode this with Data since I suck really badly with it.
To use the spell, just cast any ability after opening the map. Use the basestarsprimative cheat to research faster.
It is inevitable that part of the spell will probably need to be done in Data, such as button creation.
Data Editor
Pros
More powerful and efficient than wc3 data editor
Cons
Extremely steep learning curve as it seems to involve object oriented programming concepts
Can be very confusing to use if you don't understand how actors, behaviors etc connect with each other.
Galaxy
Pros
Easier to duplicate/modify existing spells, change spell constants since everything is localized
No need to click all over the place.
Cons
Very technical, people without prior programming experience would feel intimidated
Relatively easy to learn once you understand the code structure
One could argue that D can create stuff G cannot, or G can create stuff that D cannot.
The question is...
Is it worth it to sacrifice power/efficiency in exchange for ease of spell creation?
Is it worth the trouble to make more efficient spells in Data, but spend significantly more time on it?
PS: I have tried learning Data before, I didn't enjoy it. I don't think I can be convinced to start using it again unless its for custom behavior/effect creations. That I can apply through galaxy after.
Also, is there anyone experienced enough with the data editor who can recreate this spell with it? It would be nice if we could have a fair comparison with regards to ease of creation between the 2 methods. The specifications of the spell are as follows.
The spell: Psi Barrage
Creates a ball of energy that travels in a line for X seconds. (Move actor by 2DH every 0.05 seconds)
The ball begins releasing psi storms every 0.25 seconds that get bigger and bigger as travel time gets longer after point of impact.
If there is no impact within X seconds, it just explodes.
At point of impact, travel time is reset to 0.25, the minimum interval between psi storm damage instances.
Every time the ball releases a psi storm that hits a group of units, it loses some travel momentum.
Each instance of psi storm damage applied deals its base damage (10) + 25 bonus from the spell. Its possible to make this level dependent as well, but it doesn't seem good for balance.
Additional information
X = 1 + 0.5xLevel
The AOE/Scale of the psi storm is dependent on its travel time.
Since this is my first attempt at a custom script spell, it took about a day. But now that theres a template, it should be pretty easy to design more in future.
In my opinion, the efficiency loss from not using Data is worth it, but this is of course a biased opinion.
First of all, I do believe this belongs here in off topic as it is intended for debate. (Theres an idea Rodrigo) It doesn't really belong with data or galaxy, since it concerns both.
What I have attached to this thread is a spell coded entirely in Custom Script (not GUI), similar to how JASS spells were done back in WC3. It's open source so anyone can feel free to play with it if they like. But be warned, Its not well documented at this point and there will be bugs as it is still in its alpha stages, but its still usable. Constructive criticism on how this code can be improved is more than welcome. But I'm afraid I won't be able to recode this with Data since I suck really badly with it.
To use the spell, just cast any ability after opening the map. Use the basestarsprimative cheat to research faster.
It is inevitable that part of the spell will probably need to be done in Data, such as button creation. Data Editor Pros
More powerful and efficient than wc3 data editor Cons
Extremely steep learning curve as it seems to involve object oriented programming concepts
Can be very confusing to use if you don't understand how actors, behaviors etc connect with each other. Galaxy Pros
Easier to duplicate/modify existing spells, change spell constants since everything is localized
No need to click all over the place. Cons
Very technical, people without prior programming experience would feel intimidated
Relatively easy to learn once you understand the code structure
One could argue that D can create stuff G cannot, or G can create stuff that D cannot. The question is...
Is it worth it to sacrifice power/efficiency in exchange for ease of spell creation?
Is it worth the trouble to make more efficient spells in Data, but spend significantly more time on it?
PS: I have tried learning Data before, I didn't enjoy it. I don't think I can be convinced to start using it again unless its for custom behavior/effect creations. That I can apply through galaxy after.
Also, is there anyone experienced enough with the data editor who can recreate this spell with it? It would be nice if we could have a fair comparison with regards to ease of creation between the 2 methods. The specifications of the spell are as follows. The spell: Psi Barrage
Creates a ball of energy that travels in a line for X seconds. (Move actor by 2DH every 0.05 seconds)
The ball begins releasing psi storms every 0.25 seconds that get bigger and bigger as travel time gets longer after point of impact.
If there is no impact within X seconds, it just explodes.
At point of impact, travel time is reset to 0.25, the minimum interval between psi storm damage instances.
Every time the ball releases a psi storm that hits a group of units, it loses some travel momentum.
Each instance of psi storm damage applied deals its base damage (10) + 25 bonus from the spell. Its possible to make this level dependent as well, but it doesn't seem good for balance. Additional information
X = 1 + 0.5xLevel
The AOE/Scale of the psi storm is dependent on its travel time.
Since this is my first attempt at a custom script spell, it took about a day. But now that theres a template, it should be pretty easy to design more in future.
In my opinion, the efficiency loss from not using Data is worth it, but this is of course a biased opinion.
I disagree, the Data Editor is far more powerful than any of you may imagine. Once familiar, it is more flexible and more stable than galaxy. I am working on a project to bring my ideas for three new races to life completely within the confines of the data editor.
Completely.
This means I have to learn the Data Editor, learn it as if it were my child, or the back of my hand. I disagree that it is an efficiency loss. Data is how Blizzard built their melee. A gem one might say. Everything was done in Data, nothing was preprogrammed, it was done from scratch. Every time I open the data editor, I find exciting things, ideas, concepts. The Data is what scares people away, but bigger is sometimes better, and that's the Data editor. The Data Editor is amazing, and I don't understand why you can't see that, its a scary thing, but it can be powerful, but its not one or the other. Data combined with triggers is more powerful than anything either could do alone. Its a scary thing, but the kind of quality that could be maintained with triggers AND data is quite complex. You'll see in a few years(granted the community lasts that long), and it will be quite scary, I myself intend to pave the road, I hope you'll come with me.
While I have a personal motto of "If it can be done in data, that's where it should be done", I really don't see anything wrong with mixing data with trigger for spells. In fact, right now, I'm working on a map for demonstration purposes in which I create spells planned to be "ultimate" abilities in a later map I intend to start (and publish). I have completed one such ability using a fairly half-and-half mix of data and trigger. It's the kind of ability that might make one's jaw drop at its sheer awesomeness, but the fact here is that I found myself more or less having to use trigger so I could get certain effects I was unable to through the data editor alone. The ability has an omnislash-like component to it that wouldn't look very proper if done alone in the data, so I had to trigger that.
I really wouldn't say that there's much of an efficiency hit from using triggers over data. It's not even noticeable, unless you're using a trigger that gets heavily, heavily used by a LOT of units. That's where I would recommend using data, of course, but there's no reason to be so excessively paranoid about the efficiency of your abilities that you absolutely refuse to take a trigger approach.
Still, it's a good idea to stick to data where you can, so to avoid issues and complications from arising in the future when you get a lot more stuff going on at the same time. So just remember: if it can be done in data, that's where it should be done.
I'd do it purely with triggers/code, but that's because I think the data editor is a messy, undocumented, unintuitive piece of crap. I avoid it like the plague and use triggers whenever possible (example: empty dummy abilities that launch triggers instead of real abilities).
Seriously: I think trigger based spells would only work in slow-paced or single unit games (turn based, rpgs, etc).
You've pretty much pointed out the same reasons I don't particularly enjoy using it. Plus.. Most custom maps are slow paced and single unit aren't they?
First of all, I do believe this belongs here in
off topicgeneral chat (thanks Molsterr) as it is intended for debate. (Theres an idea Rodrigo) It doesn't really belong with data or galaxy, since it concerns both.What I have attached to this thread is a spell coded entirely in Custom Script (not GUI), similar to how JASS spells were done back in WC3. It's open source so anyone can feel free to play with it if they like. But be warned, Its not well documented at this point and there will be bugs as it is still in its alpha stages, but its still usable. Constructive criticism on how this code can be improved is more than welcome. But I'm afraid I won't be able to recode this with Data since I suck really badly with it.
To use the spell, just cast any ability after opening the map. Use the basestarsprimative cheat to research faster.
It is inevitable that part of the spell will probably need to be done in Data, such as button creation.
Data Editor
Pros
Cons
Galaxy
Pros
Cons
One could argue that D can create stuff G cannot, or G can create stuff that D cannot.
The question is...
PS: I have tried learning Data before, I didn't enjoy it. I don't think I can be convinced to start using it again unless its for custom behavior/effect creations. That I can apply through galaxy after.
Also, is there anyone experienced enough with the data editor who can recreate this spell with it? It would be nice if we could have a fair comparison with regards to ease of creation between the 2 methods. The specifications of the spell are as follows.
The spell: Psi Barrage
Additional information
Since this is my first attempt at a custom script spell, it took about a day. But now that theres a template, it should be pretty easy to design more in future.
In my opinion, the efficiency loss from not using Data is worth it, but this is of course a biased opinion.
Edit: Reuploaded a cleaner version of the map.
I disagree, the Data Editor is far more powerful than any of you may imagine. Once familiar, it is more flexible and more stable than galaxy. I am working on a project to bring my ideas for three new races to life completely within the confines of the data editor.
Completely.
This means I have to learn the Data Editor, learn it as if it were my child, or the back of my hand. I disagree that it is an efficiency loss. Data is how Blizzard built their melee. A gem one might say. Everything was done in Data, nothing was preprogrammed, it was done from scratch. Every time I open the data editor, I find exciting things, ideas, concepts. The Data is what scares people away, but bigger is sometimes better, and that's the Data editor. The Data Editor is amazing, and I don't understand why you can't see that, its a scary thing, but it can be powerful, but its not one or the other. Data combined with triggers is more powerful than anything either could do alone. Its a scary thing, but the kind of quality that could be maintained with triggers AND data is quite complex. You'll see in a few years(granted the community lasts that long), and it will be quite scary, I myself intend to pave the road, I hope you'll come with me.
While I have a personal motto of "If it can be done in data, that's where it should be done", I really don't see anything wrong with mixing data with trigger for spells. In fact, right now, I'm working on a map for demonstration purposes in which I create spells planned to be "ultimate" abilities in a later map I intend to start (and publish). I have completed one such ability using a fairly half-and-half mix of data and trigger. It's the kind of ability that might make one's jaw drop at its sheer awesomeness, but the fact here is that I found myself more or less having to use trigger so I could get certain effects I was unable to through the data editor alone. The ability has an omnislash-like component to it that wouldn't look very proper if done alone in the data, so I had to trigger that.
I really wouldn't say that there's much of an efficiency hit from using triggers over data. It's not even noticeable, unless you're using a trigger that gets heavily, heavily used by a LOT of units. That's where I would recommend using data, of course, but there's no reason to be so excessively paranoid about the efficiency of your abilities that you absolutely refuse to take a trigger approach.
Still, it's a good idea to stick to data where you can, so to avoid issues and complications from arising in the future when you get a lot more stuff going on at the same time. So just remember: if it can be done in data, that's where it should be done.
But it has to do with sc2 =D so gana move it to general forums for you, more people will look and discuss there anyway =D
I'd do it purely with triggers/code, but that's because I think the data editor is a messy, undocumented, unintuitive piece of crap. I avoid it like the plague and use triggers whenever possible (example: empty dummy abilities that launch triggers instead of real abilities).
Seriously: I think trigger based spells would only work in slow-paced or single unit games (turn based, rpgs, etc).
@Tolkfan: Go
You've pretty much pointed out the same reasons I don't particularly enjoy using it. Plus.. Most custom maps are slow paced and single unit aren't they?
data editor is great. but it's super limited in what values you can grab and what you can change.
for me. i will try to make something in the data editor. if i find i've hit a wall i'll resort to galaxy/triggers.