I take everything back I said about teams. I'm sick of the data editor. I hate it. I'm sick of making abilities that require 20 duplicated objects for no reason at all. It's a waste of time that could be spent on other more important aspects of a map.
I still have a problem. How do I get over my stubbornness and relinquish control over every little detail to someone else? The concept is unknown to me; almost mind-boggling.
My entire life I've been exempt from working in groups on projects due to my autism and inability to work with others without needing to take complete control of the work. Even in college I'm exempt from working in groups.
You get someone you trust or like and work closely together. Make sure you check stuff up every step of the way and let him know that it's not because you specifically don't trust him, but don't trust anyone.
I think blizzard fails so hard with the data editor. More features (sc2 editor) < Fast yet still you can do shit load of stuff (wc3 editor).
Some abilities would take like 5mins to make in wc3 and it takes 30mins to do it in sc2 and it still might not be perfect. Especially the movers are bullshit, extremely hard to use (so many fields) and the results are somewhat lacking most of the time, since you might need to make 5 movers for some abilities to work on different ranges.
but of cource it doesnt have to be this way. I personally do pretty much everything with triggers, if its not possible with them maybe its better not to do it :/.
I still miss my wc3 editor...*cries*
(I probly went off topic, but felt like writing something somewhere) :(
I still have a problem. How do I get over my stubbornness and relinquish control over every little detail to someone else? The concept is unknown to me; almost mind-boggling.
I too have a tendency to take control, though not as strongly as you. My written and verbal communication ability is almost three standard deviations above the mean. This helps to say the least. To lead a team you must be able to take control without always being overt about it. You're in this situation because you have to be the leader in order to retain control over the details of the map. Otherwise, you're partners and this is partially lost. I'm saying all of this because I don't believe you're in the same position. Don't try and start a team. Don't try to be the leader. Rather advertise it as freelance work. Then it becomes a buyer/seller (without $, or maybe with if you're just giving him boring stuff) relationship.
Personally, I feel that the data editor is amazing in everything it's able to do. Once I figured out how to work things, it feels very intuitive. I think it would be difficult to encompass all of the data editor's capabilities in the same sort of organization as in the original SC1 and WC3 editors.
You're not alone with this.. The data editor, its powerful I'll admit, but at the same time its just ridiculously confusing to use. My suggestion is to give galaxy spell scripting a shot. Instead of 20 objects, you can get a decent spell with just 5-6. Listed as follows:
1) Ability (Does nothing except allow the hero to cast a spell)
2) Learn ability (for the ability)
3) Requirement (behavior?)
4) Dummy damage effect (Deal's no damage, serves only to allow Deal damage to unit triggers)
The dummy damage effect can be recycled for all your other spells too.
6) Buttons (2x 1 for the Learn, another for the Ability)
All of the above can be easily duplicated and modified without much of a hassle.
The first time making it is usually really tough. But once you have a template down, its really easy to modify your spells constants as they are all localized. Rather than having to click here, click there, click everywhere just to change the amount of damage your spell does. If you're interested, let me know and I could post you the first spell I made with script (not completely polished, but getting there). Feel free to reverse engineer it and you should be able to figure out how to make your own :)
The advantage of triggered damage, you get to play the math. You could have spells that take hero stats into account when it comes to damage reduction etc. Without the need for behaviors that reduce spell damage and the such.
Plus, the degree of control you have over the spell is significantly improved in comparison to using the data editor. And it's much faster since everything is on one page.
The data editor is a work of art. Sure, the learning curve is mean, but
at the apex is a shining pot of limitless delight.
I don't know. Even at the apex, there's an awful lot of frustration. Also, "limitless" is a pretty strong word... I've run into plenty of limitations in the data editor.
I actually really like the data editor, don't get me wrong. I spent a long time struggling with it, until on day the lightbulb went off. Everything makes a great deal more sense once you get past those initial hurdles.
The Data Editor is nice for complex abilities because it allows you to do them without triggers. I don't mind it for trying to do complex stuff which in wc3 you would have had to rely on often bulky scripts for. However for things that should be easy it can be a nuisance especially repetitive jobs. For example in my map I have component items that do nothing and are simply used as pieces in item combos. For each on I need an inventory item, unit item, actor, and button which is a huge amount of work for an item that does nothing. However I have gotten around this by writing a program which write the xml for all of the various peaces given just the desired information so that feature is another plus.
I have a very high experience with the data editor. I know how to make any ability I'd like. I'm just sick of it.
I've also made a projectile physics system in triggers. It simplified the process of moving projectiles in fancy ways.
Karawasa, I have no desire to lead a team. I also have no problem telling people what to do (whether they listen is another issue). If anyone has watched my YouTube videos, it's clear how undeveloped ad slow my speech skills are. However, I have no problem conveying information through text. And I have no problem conveying pure, quantifiable information. But there are nuances to spoken language that I do not understand.
I'd much rather participate in a partnership. I'd still lead it, but it would be back-and-forth collaboration.
I'd much rather participate in a partnership. I'd still lead it, but it would be back-and-forth collaboration.
Oh, then I misunderstood your quote. I was thinking you didn't want to relinquish any control over the project. If you lead a partnership, you will make concessions from time to time. Otherwise he is going to get fed up and leave.
This thread was a very good way to start yourself (among others) on the right track to interact with other mapmakers.
+1 for the "advertise what you need", collaborate with your collaborators fully knowing your limitations...
Being a control freak is a good thing don't worry...
Just except the fact that you may encounter resistance when you do share your ideas... people like to have their input taken into account... Since it's for YOUR map, you decide in the end... Just take the time to test out what people present back to you... (small examples of their reasoning in answer to what you'd like them to provide).
You might find people you do get along with, you'll be the one most surprised if it succeeds.. trust me it's no as hard as all that. The best way is exchange: you like doing x and not y, find someone that has the reverse likes and dislikes and exchange services on each other's map... complemetary people work out well... and that's what usually leads to forming good teams... concurrent talent works also but it's just that more stressful and difficult.
As for data vs triggers vs sc2 can do infinite vs galaxy is a shitty software/lines of coding:
I truly believe sc2 was intentionally released in this awkward form... the big blizz is not one to fall for the loss of it's star pupil again, or not until Legacy of my toilet comes out, in a decade or so... (ohhh, sc1< w3 editor gooooood, so gooood it's frivolous to compare, but sc2 has a much greater output potential overall, .....but with no new great idea in it ... that has yet to come out at least, but the jury on the matter seems to be in on that issue I'm afraid).
Good luck and good thread, can never go wrong with honesty (well you can actually still get killed or worst for it, but I suppose you get my point).
lol @ quote. and theres definitely some truth behind it...
I'm starting to get fed up by the Data Editor as well, but that's only because i have to keep duplicating things over and over again for additional ability levels. I'll still use the Data Editor for everything i did before, except now i'm just gonna chuck in some catalog value triggers for the leveling.
Yes, the data editor is extremely time consuming and annoying, but i just gotta quote Eiviyn
The data editor is a work of art. Sure, the learning curve is mean, but at the apex is a shining pot of limitless delight.
Triggers might be simpler and far more time efficient (in means of making stuff), but the data editor is still very useful and i'd never swap it for the wc3 one, nor stop using it for things i can do with triggers...
I'll put in my 2 cents. Our team has a somewhat unique advantage of all it's members being RL friends so our bonds are quite strong but this in no way means that we don't have problems over what ideas we should use.
In general the goal is to hold up the idea of the project as something fluid and changeable for the good as long as you can all speak truthfully with your members. The hardest part is knowing with aspects of a project to take an absolute stand on and which to adjust when others are using their creative genius to make better.
Over the last year I've had to let go of some aspects of our project which I cosidered quite important. However there have been times when I've taken a stand for something and told people why I feel that way. At the same time though I always leave it open for change later. "lets try it this way first. If it turns out badly we can go back later to re-assess the idea and change it" is one of my favorite lines. Not simply to appease people but because it's true. When your goal is to make the best most professional map that is lots of fun then changing some of that stuff you think is so vital will turn out to be minor in the long run.
Vex, it's counter intuitive to relinquish control over something you definitely want/need to control. Priorities must be established so that a concession can be made with yourself, the society, the product, and potential partners.
It's about making deals, and it goes not only towards the outside of self, but also with the self.
imo.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
I suppose in the end, it's about how much patience we have. I for one do not have the patience to have to duplicate objects when I could instead recycle them. Scripting to me is just far more efficient in terms of time and effort needed to achieve the same result.
I'm not 100% sure I understand your statement. Do you refer to faster in terms of building the spell or faster as in how quickly sc2 is able to handle it?
I've read here and there that data is in fact faster because it is an integral component of sc2.
What I'd really like to know though is how can we compare the performance between data and script? In my opinion, anything done in data can be done with script (put aside data creation of course). I really don't mind the sacrifice of a tiny performance drop as long as It saves me hours of work to build something with data that might not work exactly how I envision it.
This XML program does sound interesting.. so data is actually xml? It would be great if i could use such a script to automatically generate the dummy abilities and other data instead of having to duplicate everytime.
I take everything back I said about teams. I'm sick of the data editor. I hate it. I'm sick of making abilities that require 20 duplicated objects for no reason at all. It's a waste of time that could be spent on other more important aspects of a map.
I still have a problem. How do I get over my stubbornness and relinquish control over every little detail to someone else? The concept is unknown to me; almost mind-boggling.
My entire life I've been exempt from working in groups on projects due to my autism and inability to work with others without needing to take complete control of the work. Even in college I'm exempt from working in groups.
You get someone you trust or like and work closely together. Make sure you check stuff up every step of the way and let him know that it's not because you specifically don't trust him, but don't trust anyone.
I think blizzard fails so hard with the data editor. More features (sc2 editor) < Fast yet still you can do shit load of stuff (wc3 editor).
Some abilities would take like 5mins to make in wc3 and it takes 30mins to do it in sc2 and it still might not be perfect. Especially the movers are bullshit, extremely hard to use (so many fields) and the results are somewhat lacking most of the time, since you might need to make 5 movers for some abilities to work on different ranges.
but of cource it doesnt have to be this way. I personally do pretty much everything with triggers, if its not possible with them maybe its better not to do it :/.
I still miss my wc3 editor...*cries*
(I probly went off topic, but felt like writing something somewhere) :(
I too have a tendency to take control, though not as strongly as you. My written and verbal communication ability is almost three standard deviations above the mean. This helps to say the least. To lead a team you must be able to take control without always being overt about it. You're in this situation because you have to be the leader in order to retain control over the details of the map. Otherwise, you're partners and this is partially lost. I'm saying all of this because I don't believe you're in the same position. Don't try and start a team. Don't try to be the leader. Rather advertise it as freelance work. Then it becomes a buyer/seller (without $, or maybe with if you're just giving him boring stuff) relationship.
@zenx1: Go
Personally, I feel that the data editor is amazing in everything it's able to do. Once I figured out how to work things, it feels very intuitive. I think it would be difficult to encompass all of the data editor's capabilities in the same sort of organization as in the original SC1 and WC3 editors.
@Vexal: Go
You're not alone with this.. The data editor, its powerful I'll admit, but at the same time its just ridiculously confusing to use. My suggestion is to give galaxy spell scripting a shot. Instead of 20 objects, you can get a decent spell with just 5-6. Listed as follows:
All of the above can be easily duplicated and modified without much of a hassle.
The first time making it is usually really tough. But once you have a template down, its really easy to modify your spells constants as they are all localized. Rather than having to click here, click there, click everywhere just to change the amount of damage your spell does. If you're interested, let me know and I could post you the first spell I made with script (not completely polished, but getting there). Feel free to reverse engineer it and you should be able to figure out how to make your own :)
The advantage of triggered damage, you get to play the math. You could have spells that take hero stats into account when it comes to damage reduction etc. Without the need for behaviors that reduce spell damage and the such.
Plus, the degree of control you have over the spell is significantly improved in comparison to using the data editor. And it's much faster since everything is on one page.
@FuzzYD: Go
Just note that data is faster than galaxy. If it's a one time event or if it has a low frequency, then this point is moot.
The data editor is a work of art. Sure, the learning curve is mean, but at the apex is a shining pot of limitless delight.
I don't know. Even at the apex, there's an awful lot of frustration. Also, "limitless" is a pretty strong word... I've run into plenty of limitations in the data editor.
I actually really like the data editor, don't get me wrong. I spent a long time struggling with it, until on day the lightbulb went off. Everything makes a great deal more sense once you get past those initial hurdles.
That said, it's definitely not without its flaws.
@Vexal: Go
I have a little bit of AS and I'm a junior HS.
The Data Editor is nice for complex abilities because it allows you to do them without triggers. I don't mind it for trying to do complex stuff which in wc3 you would have had to rely on often bulky scripts for. However for things that should be easy it can be a nuisance especially repetitive jobs. For example in my map I have component items that do nothing and are simply used as pieces in item combos. For each on I need an inventory item, unit item, actor, and button which is a huge amount of work for an item that does nothing. However I have gotten around this by writing a program which write the xml for all of the various peaces given just the desired information so that feature is another plus.
I have a very high experience with the data editor. I know how to make any ability I'd like. I'm just sick of it.
I've also made a projectile physics system in triggers. It simplified the process of moving projectiles in fancy ways.
Karawasa, I have no desire to lead a team. I also have no problem telling people what to do (whether they listen is another issue). If anyone has watched my YouTube videos, it's clear how undeveloped ad slow my speech skills are. However, I have no problem conveying information through text. And I have no problem conveying pure, quantifiable information. But there are nuances to spoken language that I do not understand.
I'd much rather participate in a partnership. I'd still lead it, but it would be back-and-forth collaboration.
Oh, then I misunderstood your quote. I was thinking you didn't want to relinquish any control over the project. If you lead a partnership, you will make concessions from time to time. Otherwise he is going to get fed up and leave.
This thread was a very good way to start yourself (among others) on the right track to interact with other mapmakers.
+1 for the "advertise what you need", collaborate with your collaborators fully knowing your limitations...
Being a control freak is a good thing don't worry...
Just except the fact that you may encounter resistance when you do share your ideas... people like to have their input taken into account... Since it's for YOUR map, you decide in the end... Just take the time to test out what people present back to you... (small examples of their reasoning in answer to what you'd like them to provide).
You might find people you do get along with, you'll be the one most surprised if it succeeds.. trust me it's no as hard as all that. The best way is exchange: you like doing x and not y, find someone that has the reverse likes and dislikes and exchange services on each other's map... complemetary people work out well... and that's what usually leads to forming good teams... concurrent talent works also but it's just that more stressful and difficult.
As for data vs triggers vs sc2 can do infinite vs galaxy is a shitty software/lines of coding:
I truly believe sc2 was intentionally released in this awkward form... the big blizz is not one to fall for the loss of it's star pupil again, or not until Legacy of my toilet comes out, in a decade or so... (ohhh, sc1< w3 editor gooooood, so gooood it's frivolous to compare, but sc2 has a much greater output potential overall, .....but with no new great idea in it ... that has yet to come out at least, but the jury on the matter seems to be in on that issue I'm afraid).
Good luck and good thread, can never go wrong with honesty (well you can actually still get killed or worst for it, but I suppose you get my point).
I can't remember who said that, but it stuck to my brain.
@Gorandor: Go
lol @ quote. and theres definitely some truth behind it...
I'm starting to get fed up by the Data Editor as well, but that's only because i have to keep duplicating things over and over again for additional ability levels. I'll still use the Data Editor for everything i did before, except now i'm just gonna chuck in some catalog value triggers for the leveling.
Yes, the data editor is extremely time consuming and annoying, but i just gotta quote Eiviyn
Triggers might be simpler and far more time efficient (in means of making stuff), but the data editor is still very useful and i'd never swap it for the wc3 one, nor stop using it for things i can do with triggers...
I'll put in my 2 cents. Our team has a somewhat unique advantage of all it's members being RL friends so our bonds are quite strong but this in no way means that we don't have problems over what ideas we should use.
In general the goal is to hold up the idea of the project as something fluid and changeable for the good as long as you can all speak truthfully with your members. The hardest part is knowing with aspects of a project to take an absolute stand on and which to adjust when others are using their creative genius to make better.
Over the last year I've had to let go of some aspects of our project which I cosidered quite important. However there have been times when I've taken a stand for something and told people why I feel that way. At the same time though I always leave it open for change later. "lets try it this way first. If it turns out badly we can go back later to re-assess the idea and change it" is one of my favorite lines. Not simply to appease people but because it's true. When your goal is to make the best most professional map that is lots of fun then changing some of that stuff you think is so vital will turn out to be minor in the long run.
Vex, it's counter intuitive to relinquish control over something you definitely want/need to control. Priorities must be established so that a concession can be made with yourself, the society, the product, and potential partners.
It's about making deals, and it goes not only towards the outside of self, but also with the self.
imo.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@TheAlmaity: Go
I suppose in the end, it's about how much patience we have. I for one do not have the patience to have to duplicate objects when I could instead recycle them. Scripting to me is just far more efficient in terms of time and effort needed to achieve the same result.
@Karawasa: Go
I'm not 100% sure I understand your statement. Do you refer to faster in terms of building the spell or faster as in how quickly sc2 is able to handle it? I've read here and there that data is in fact faster because it is an integral component of sc2.
What I'd really like to know though is how can we compare the performance between data and script? In my opinion, anything done in data can be done with script (put aside data creation of course). I really don't mind the sacrifice of a tiny performance drop as long as It saves me hours of work to build something with data that might not work exactly how I envision it.
@DirectorOfTheUED: Go
This XML program does sound interesting.. so data is actually xml? It would be great if i could use such a script to automatically generate the dummy abilities and other data instead of having to duplicate everytime.
I've concluded it is far more efficient to tell someone else to duplicate objects than to duplicate objects yourself.
Duplicating objects can take 20 commands for a single ability.
Telling someone to duplicate objects for an ability is just one command.