Ye, the Gold is probably in too good a position. Guess I'll move them near one of the main attack routes.
The "dead-space" is actually planned out, don't worry. It just lacks the assets to make sense right now, they will be unpathable areas.
Some of the paths are very narrow, ye. Though the ones in the center currently are just placeholders, I got something unique in mind for them. I will probably work around the outside routes a bit more, by making their approaches broader and turning the gold into a regular expansion. I painted a few paths, so you get a better idea of where exactly the paths should go later. The "broken" lines are just a thought for Reaper/Infestor/Collosus play. I would like to break up the regular stuff we see in most games a bit and make it more favorable to use less "often seen" units for hit and run, you know?
Also, have some rocks! Abusing the pathing that cliffs already have :p
now that looks more like it :D The Golds are muchh better.
is that a xel'naga tower right next to the natural? or are my eyes failing me. I cant seem to spot them in the green version visibly.
the dam idea in the middle is awesome for aesthetics. Its these kinds of stuff that make up the artistic value of melee maps. Love that bridge btw.
oh and LOS blockers, dont forget em. they change the game alot by allowing some baneling surprises and such.
My only other concern would be that huge chunk of higher ground (the one thats part of your main and is sticking out towards the second ramp from your base). Now im nowhere near pro, my highest league stats currently is platinum on 4v4. and several golds for 3v3, but that area is asking for some defensive tower/siegemode tank placements :P and has potential to fight back any ground aggression towards your natural. encourages turtling for the most part, but idk how it will turn out. Blinkstalker/Reaper/Collosi cliff abuse would definitely be a good choice in your map as you said.
My only other concern would be that huge chunk of higher ground (the one thats part of your main and is sticking out towards the second ramp from your base). Now im nowhere near pro, my highest league stats currently is platinum on 4v4. and several golds for 3v3, but that area is asking for some defensive tower/siegemode tank placements :P and has potential to fight back any ground aggression towards your natural. encourages turtling for the most part, but idk how it will turn out. Blinkstalker/Reaper/Collosi cliff abuse would definitely be a good choice in your map as you said.
Not sure. Imagine a terran player is turtled up with his army on that extended high ground. Just look at how ridiculously vulnerable this leaves his natural to basically any attack from behind. It might be problematic for zergling counterattacks, but any kind of air or cliffwalker can just rape the mineral line so easily if you're that far away. Still though, it might not be a bad idea to add a ramp with destructable rocks right next to the geyser. This would keep turtling viable, but would ensure that, for example, a turtling Terran, couldn't just hug his top ramp all game long and defend his mineral line with turrets. Plus, it gives Zerg some options.
Aestheticwise, it's looking terrific so far. The only thing I dislike is the placement of the water in regards to the dams. You'd usually expect some kind of higher-ground basin with water, or at least some kind of river flowing from the mountains. The way it looks now it just feels like the water is kind of coming out of nowhere. Also, it's obvious the dams are still WIP, but I recommend using decals to seperate the 'dam' doodad from the walkable area and make the pathing clear.
Edit: I also asked a pall who's better at melee than me. His comments;
-High yields aren't being used in tournaments anymore.
-1 ramp to the natural means hugely risk free play that will lead to a lot of 2-base all-ins.
-Lots of chokes make siege tanks ridiculously strong.
-Combination of 2 and 3; if you add a second ramp to the natural, pull the third in a little bit closer and remove some of the water outside the naturals, all these problems should be fixed for the larger part.
is that a xel'naga tower right next to the natural? or are my eyes failing me. I cant seem to spot them in the green version visibly.
Put it there for the moment. It makes Terran too easy to play. Gotta find a better spot. The others are placed so that you can see part of both bridges as well as the center. But there is still a very small corridor to stealth your air through. Probably going to put a high-ground on the central Towers and put some on the "outside" path.
oh and LOS blockers, dont forget em. they change the game alot by allowing some baneling surprises and such.
Ye, I'm still testing around which ones to pick. I'd like to build some farms and make the "fields" some LOS blockers =)
@Mozared: Go
There, there *hands a cookie* All is well, I already took care of that, the shot just doesn't show it. There will be some fences to "cut off" the dam =)
Edit: I also asked a pall who's better at melee than me. His comments;
-High yields aren't being used in tournaments anymore.
-1 ramp to the natural means hugely risk free play that will lead to a lot of 2-base all-ins.
-Lots of chokes make siege tanks ridiculously strong.
-Combination of 2 and 3; if you add a second ramp to the natural, pull the third in a little bit closer and remove some of the water outside the naturals, all these problems should be fixed for the larger part.
I've seen quite a few tournaments lately and high yields where still around in those. Gonna keep 'em until I see them nowhere at all anymore.
Ye, will probably make a 2nd ramp to the natural with rocks - gotta see about Siege Tanks. Turtled Terrans aren't easy to catch on any map. You gotta make sure you hit them, while they move. I have more of a concern with Baneling mines. Most players will probably use the dam to cross over and those are perfect to blow half the marines up with a few Banelings.
Not sure. Imagine a terran player is turtled up with his army on that extended high ground. Just look at how ridiculously vulnerable this leaves his natural to basically any attack from behind. It might be problematic for zergling counterattacks, but any kind of air or cliffwalker can just rape the mineral line so easily if you're that far away. Still though, it might not be a bad idea to add a ramp with destructable rocks right next to the geyser. This would keep turtling viable, but would ensure that, for example, a turtling Terran, couldn't just hug his top ramp all game long and defend his mineral line with turrets. Plus, it gives Zerg some options.
As I see it, the siege tanks and towers would be placed on higher ground, while your ground forces will just need to guard the ramp towards your natural. T players would benefit here since A. they will be fighting on somewhat of a choke, and since they are all ranged, u get the idea. and B. the tanks/towers on the higher ground would be untouchable without high ground vision. Unless of course banelings/FF+Psi-Storm are used in play by the attacker. As a toss player, I would definitely do a Forge Fast Expansion in this map as I can abuse that extended high ground for mostly towers, while ground forces/buildings barricade an already narrow natural choke.
I agree that an easy fix would be a second ramp towards the nat, preferably a larger one, covered by a rock.
I still see golds too. No hurt in putting golds unless you're planning for competitive tournament play. There are still 1v1 Ladder maps that have gold.
@Zolstice: Go
Ye, there are some very nice things there. But most of that stuff also took quite a while to make. And there is the factor that some of them only look good/work out while on a screenshot. I'm just way beyond the point where I want/can spend a lot of time on a single project, especially in StarCraft 2.
I really only get myself to spend that much time on actual projects that could make money and only if there is enough time on schedule to do it =)
At some point you just realize that spending the same amount of time in which you can terrain most of a map on a single area and having to come up with more good looking stuff for the ENTIRE MAP is just silly. Constant quality with a few POI's works just better overall =)
Except when you got the time to waste and only do stuff in StarCraft 2 - and you plan on spending the next 2 years making the same map all the time and release it somewhere around the time of Legacy of the Void.
I personally play a lot of games and also use a lot of different editors outside of StarCraft 2. But I know quite a lot of people who only do maps in StarCraft 2. For these guys it really makes sense to do it, because their StarCraft 2 projects might get some major attention. Also, if you ever had to light a level by hand instead of just setting up some stuff in the StarCraft 2 Editor, you know how comfi the Galaxy ED is (which is why I use it when I just wanna quickly do something shiny. Less annoying.)
Just saying :P Nice stuff, but I won't spend that much time on it ^^
yeap, they take awhile to make no doubt. Theres no reason to allocate that much time to map making unless its purely out of hobby IMO. it does get more attention than other modtools out there, especially seeing how wc3's maps have influenced gaming quite much by introducing game genres like Dota, and TDs.
No push to make the perfect melee map here. Its sad how those elite melee maps that are professionally made for tournaments rarely gets Blizzard's attention. Only Taldarim Altar is user-made (with tons of blizzard 'fixes') and featured in ladder.
I will hopefully get myself to spend a lot of time on Skyrim. I just love the Elder Scrolls a lot and Skyrim put a lot of shiny in my hands. It's also more of my genre, I really like fantasy stuff. Though I also dig Sci-Fi and Horror stuff. They are just more fun to work on since they are mostly not too bound by realism.
Currently placing even MORE rocks. Nearly done with all of the edges on the map, I can start doing textures and stuff afterwards =)
Also gotta make some roads. And I probably need to mix up my textures a bit more. Going to ignore Blizzards "you no haz melee map if you use this stuff" shit and just do something cool. I'm tempted to bring weather effects and day/night circles into this.
Make a map too huge, and It favors Zerg. Behold Sauron Zerg.
Make it too close, and it favors Protoss. Devastating timing pushes. If its void, immortals or Collossi, getting faster is most advantageous.
Make openings too wide, and it favors Zerg and Protoss for `surrounding`. Make it too `choke-y` and Terran OP.
Make some expo`s accessible only via Air and it will favor Terran.
Make the first natural and main simultaneously exposed(Like blistering sands, no more on ladder I know), and it`ll favor Zerg.
What else...Im sure there`s more. When you think about it, its difficult to find the perfect balance for all three races. As Terrain plays huge factor. I`d be stressed to design a melee map.
@EternalWraith: Go
I seriously consider the "Dams" a major choke point problem right now. But than again they are big enough to have 4 Ultralisks next to each other. That's pretty damn big. But with the new LoS blockers it could become a hideout for traps and all that.
Maps always favor some races a bit more, that's the nature of things. With only 1 race, you could achieve balance.
Level Editor Rule #45: If you still find places to put rocks ... YOU HAVE NOT USED ENOUGH OF THEM!
- Nice job on this one. It looks great, doesn't distract much and won't cause too much performance issues => perfect for (melee) map.
- What's the name of the cross beam things? Never seen it in the editor O.o
- However, and this especially goes for sc1,sc2, and war3 fun/custom-maps: game design and fun will keep the players coming back to your map. If one wants them to be coming back (i.e. the map is popular) they will give a damn about your terrain and play the map because it is so funny mechanics wise. The real art is, imho, to place as many beautiful things in your map as possible, but to never let them hinder your mechanics. A balance process which is actually effing hard, imho.
- One last thing (and in case you did, just ignore this), but do you know/watch GSL? They have the perfect examples for how a map can look effing awesome and still fulfill all conditions to be playable as a melee map on the highest standards (world's top 100 players using them every day).
Names of the maps I am talking about are: Metropolis, Belshir Beach and now from the tl contest: Cloud Kingdom.
@Zolstice: Go
Ye, the Gold is probably in too good a position. Guess I'll move them near one of the main attack routes.
The "dead-space" is actually planned out, don't worry. It just lacks the assets to make sense right now, they will be unpathable areas.
Some of the paths are very narrow, ye. Though the ones in the center currently are just placeholders, I got something unique in mind for them. I will probably work around the outside routes a bit more, by making their approaches broader and turning the gold into a regular expansion. I painted a few paths, so you get a better idea of where exactly the paths should go later. The "broken" lines are just a thought for Reaper/Infestor/Collosus play. I would like to break up the regular stuff we see in most games a bit and make it more favorable to use less "often seen" units for hit and run, you know?
Also, have some rocks! Abusing the pathing that cliffs already have :p
Update: Here is what I had in mind.
And the current Layout
@Gorandor: Go
Those bridges actually look really cool :)
@Gorandor: Go
now that looks more like it :D The Golds are muchh better.
is that a xel'naga tower right next to the natural? or are my eyes failing me. I cant seem to spot them in the green version visibly.
the dam idea in the middle is awesome for aesthetics. Its these kinds of stuff that make up the artistic value of melee maps. Love that bridge btw.
oh and LOS blockers, dont forget em. they change the game alot by allowing some baneling surprises and such.
My only other concern would be that huge chunk of higher ground (the one thats part of your main and is sticking out towards the second ramp from your base). Now im nowhere near pro, my highest league stats currently is platinum on 4v4. and several golds for 3v3, but that area is asking for some defensive tower/siegemode tank placements :P and has potential to fight back any ground aggression towards your natural. encourages turtling for the most part, but idk how it will turn out. Blinkstalker/Reaper/Collosi cliff abuse would definitely be a good choice in your map as you said.
Not sure. Imagine a terran player is turtled up with his army on that extended high ground. Just look at how ridiculously vulnerable this leaves his natural to basically any attack from behind. It might be problematic for zergling counterattacks, but any kind of air or cliffwalker can just rape the mineral line so easily if you're that far away. Still though, it might not be a bad idea to add a ramp with destructable rocks right next to the geyser. This would keep turtling viable, but would ensure that, for example, a turtling Terran, couldn't just hug his top ramp all game long and defend his mineral line with turrets. Plus, it gives Zerg some options.
Aestheticwise, it's looking terrific so far. The only thing I dislike is the placement of the water in regards to the dams. You'd usually expect some kind of higher-ground basin with water, or at least some kind of river flowing from the mountains. The way it looks now it just feels like the water is kind of coming out of nowhere. Also, it's obvious the dams are still WIP, but I recommend using decals to seperate the 'dam' doodad from the walkable area and make the pathing clear.
Edit: I also asked a pall who's better at melee than me. His comments;
-High yields aren't being used in tournaments anymore.
-1 ramp to the natural means hugely risk free play that will lead to a lot of 2-base all-ins.
-Lots of chokes make siege tanks ridiculously strong.
-Combination of 2 and 3; if you add a second ramp to the natural, pull the third in a little bit closer and remove some of the water outside the naturals, all these problems should be fixed for the larger part.
Put it there for the moment. It makes Terran too easy to play. Gotta find a better spot. The others are placed so that you can see part of both bridges as well as the center. But there is still a very small corridor to stealth your air through. Probably going to put a high-ground on the central Towers and put some on the "outside" path.
Ye, I'm still testing around which ones to pick. I'd like to build some farms and make the "fields" some LOS blockers =)
@Mozared: Go There, there *hands a cookie* All is well, I already took care of that, the shot just doesn't show it. There will be some fences to "cut off" the dam =)
I've seen quite a few tournaments lately and high yields where still around in those. Gonna keep 'em until I see them nowhere at all anymore. Ye, will probably make a 2nd ramp to the natural with rocks - gotta see about Siege Tanks. Turtled Terrans aren't easy to catch on any map. You gotta make sure you hit them, while they move. I have more of a concern with Baneling mines. Most players will probably use the dam to cross over and those are perfect to blow half the marines up with a few Banelings.
As I see it, the siege tanks and towers would be placed on higher ground, while your ground forces will just need to guard the ramp towards your natural. T players would benefit here since A. they will be fighting on somewhat of a choke, and since they are all ranged, u get the idea. and B. the tanks/towers on the higher ground would be untouchable without high ground vision. Unless of course banelings/FF+Psi-Storm are used in play by the attacker. As a toss player, I would definitely do a Forge Fast Expansion in this map as I can abuse that extended high ground for mostly towers, while ground forces/buildings barricade an already narrow natural choke.
I agree that an easy fix would be a second ramp towards the nat, preferably a larger one, covered by a rock.
@Gorandor: Go
I still see golds too. No hurt in putting golds unless you're planning for competitive tournament play. There are still 1v1 Ladder maps that have gold.
Alrighto, the dam is now secured. Time to place more rocks today :P
Level Editor Rule #45: If you still find places to put rocks ... YOU HAVE NOT USED ENOUGH OF THEM!
that looks... amazingggg. You should browse some of Team Liquid's melee mapping work. They have maps that are very2 beautiful aesthetic wise.
ill give u a link towards their 'Map Art Thread'
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251461
you have to admit the pics on the link above spark fire in any terrainer's competitive spirit.
@Zolstice: Go Ye, there are some very nice things there. But most of that stuff also took quite a while to make. And there is the factor that some of them only look good/work out while on a screenshot. I'm just way beyond the point where I want/can spend a lot of time on a single project, especially in StarCraft 2.
I really only get myself to spend that much time on actual projects that could make money and only if there is enough time on schedule to do it =)
At some point you just realize that spending the same amount of time in which you can terrain most of a map on a single area and having to come up with more good looking stuff for the ENTIRE MAP is just silly. Constant quality with a few POI's works just better overall =)
Except when you got the time to waste and only do stuff in StarCraft 2 - and you plan on spending the next 2 years making the same map all the time and release it somewhere around the time of Legacy of the Void.
I personally play a lot of games and also use a lot of different editors outside of StarCraft 2. But I know quite a lot of people who only do maps in StarCraft 2. For these guys it really makes sense to do it, because their StarCraft 2 projects might get some major attention. Also, if you ever had to light a level by hand instead of just setting up some stuff in the StarCraft 2 Editor, you know how comfi the Galaxy ED is (which is why I use it when I just wanna quickly do something shiny. Less annoying.)
Just saying :P Nice stuff, but I won't spend that much time on it ^^
@Gorandor: Go
yeap, they take awhile to make no doubt. Theres no reason to allocate that much time to map making unless its purely out of hobby IMO. it does get more attention than other modtools out there, especially seeing how wc3's maps have influenced gaming quite much by introducing game genres like Dota, and TDs.
No push to make the perfect melee map here. Its sad how those elite melee maps that are professionally made for tournaments rarely gets Blizzard's attention. Only Taldarim Altar is user-made (with tons of blizzard 'fixes') and featured in ladder.
@Zolstice: Go
I will hopefully get myself to spend a lot of time on Skyrim. I just love the Elder Scrolls a lot and Skyrim put a lot of shiny in my hands. It's also more of my genre, I really like fantasy stuff. Though I also dig Sci-Fi and Horror stuff. They are just more fun to work on since they are mostly not too bound by realism.
Currently placing even MORE rocks. Nearly done with all of the edges on the map, I can start doing textures and stuff afterwards =)
Also gotta make some roads. And I probably need to mix up my textures a bit more. Going to ignore Blizzards "you no haz melee map if you use this stuff" shit and just do something cool. I'm tempted to bring weather effects and day/night circles into this.
@Gorandor: Go
Make a map too huge, and It favors Zerg. Behold Sauron Zerg.
Make it too close, and it favors Protoss. Devastating timing pushes. If its void, immortals or Collossi, getting faster is most advantageous.
Make openings too wide, and it favors Zerg and Protoss for `surrounding`. Make it too `choke-y` and Terran OP.
Make some expo`s accessible only via Air and it will favor Terran.
Make the first natural and main simultaneously exposed(Like blistering sands, no more on ladder I know), and it`ll favor Zerg.
What else...Im sure there`s more. When you think about it, its difficult to find the perfect balance for all three races. As Terrain plays huge factor. I`d be stressed to design a melee map.
@EternalWraith: Go I seriously consider the "Dams" a major choke point problem right now. But than again they are big enough to have 4 Ultralisks next to each other. That's pretty damn big. But with the new LoS blockers it could become a hideout for traps and all that.
Maps always favor some races a bit more, that's the nature of things. With only 1 race, you could achieve balance.
We demand UPDAETZ!
I knew this was a good idea :D
@Mozared: Go
I'm still placing rocks on all cliffs and testing them with Reapers. So. Many. Rocks.
MY WORKS ECLIPSE EVERYONES
@Ababmer: Go
BLIZZARD WISH THEY HAD ME
- Nice job on this one. It looks great, doesn't distract much and won't cause too much performance issues => perfect for (melee) map.
- What's the name of the cross beam things? Never seen it in the editor O.o
- However, and this especially goes for sc1,sc2, and war3 fun/custom-maps: game design and fun will keep the players coming back to your map. If one wants them to be coming back (i.e. the map is popular) they will give a damn about your terrain and play the map because it is so funny mechanics wise. The real art is, imho, to place as many beautiful things in your map as possible, but to never let them hinder your mechanics. A balance process which is actually effing hard, imho.
- One last thing (and in case you did, just ignore this), but do you know/watch GSL? They have the perfect examples for how a map can look effing awesome and still fulfill all conditions to be playable as a melee map on the highest standards (world's top 100 players using them every day). Names of the maps I am talking about are: Metropolis, Belshir Beach and now from the tl contest: Cloud Kingdom.