Do you like denying or do you think it's better without it? I'm using this to determine whether it should be included in a potential future project.
In case you don't know what denying is, it's when people try to get the killing blow on their own allied units or towers so that the other side doesn't get the money/xp.
I recall it was implemented due to game limitations in WC3, though I can't quite recall it.
I think it's a core mechanic in the gameplay and shouldn't be removed.
Just something extra to worry about, and can certainly turn the tide of the game.
It's good but I think to be fair the opponent deserves that kill and money. If a player gets killed it's his fault for not having run when he should have. If a player keeps getting killed I'll start denying.
I don't play DotA(never have, neither have I played LoL) but I do play HoN from time to time, and I love denying. It's an integral part of the game style.
Be fair? DotA/LoL/HoN are COMPETITIVE games... there is no fairness, only skill. If you can't get the last hits, you change lanes, go jungle, or ask for a gank. Simple.
I always felt "denying" had no place in a team based map. It's like shooting your own team-mate in an fps to stop the other team getting a point; you get punished for that, not rewarded. Yeah, they both take skill to do, but both feel out of place in my mind.
I always felt "denying" had no place in a team based map. It's like shooting your own team-mate in an fps to stop the other team getting a point; you get punished for that, not rewarded. Yeah, they both take skill to do, but both feel out of place in my mind.
There is a difference between denying creeps and team-killing other players, isn't it?
Thats your point of view. IMO creeps/mobs are just running bags of money, and being able to pick it up (last hit) or prevent enemy from getting it (denying it) raises skillcap of the game.
Well, while I do not think that denying is a bad thing, you have to take into account, that it can potentially be devastating to the gameplay. If denying does not give any xp or gold, the game will only evolve on trying to get more and more denys. You will need countermeasures for this. (dota introtuced denies still giving xp, because 0 xp was way overpowered, also had to re-think the whole hero killing/reward system because the game became only about creep killing and denying, hero kills were more or less ineffective - for those reasons LoL banned denying completely from their game)
Denying is good, because it gives players something to do; however it shifts the focus from hero vs hero fights. You have to ask yourself, if you want that.
In my opinion denying is bad. Just as Kueken531 said, it shifts the gameplay from PvP to PvE and outlasting becomes more important.
Denying adds a unnessessary complexity. It requires balance though since you need enough complexity to keep it interresting but not too much as it will be too hard to get people into it. And the laning phase is where you try to get a headstart, it's not supposed to be the focus of the game.
I dont think denying was thought of as a feature in DotA, but more like a side-effect from using the engine. ( Same goes for the auto-hit scan radius. )
Denying is in my opinion bad for a gamemode that revolves around PvP.
And the main reason why I think it's bad is because it's not fun.
Denying just helps non-noobs own the noobs more. In my book thats a win win. Anything that makes noobs get owned more = FTW.
How does denying = passive.....
You have to be fairly good at first of all. Secondly if were talking dota style deny, you can only really deny the creep when its below 10% health and that means your aiming for the last hit on the creep.
Most players do not even last hit creeps they are against, these people are noobs. Most people on LOL have no idea what i mean by "last hitting" they just auto attack creeps. I wish I could deny in LOL because most the time I can rock a noob in dota and prevent them from getting half the creeps to kill. This is because most people are terribad at timing the last hits in.
Beware if you lane with me in LOL you wont be making much money from creep kills =). Its all about the last hits.
Thats exactly my point, actually. Denying gives you a great advantage, so does last-hitting. Everyone, who realizes that, does it. Everyone who does it good, feels good about it, he feels like he is good in this game. And why? Because he is right. He IS good at this game, because denying is so damn useful! If you can (ab)use the most useful strategies in a game, you are usually good at it.
However, this has nothing to do with the denying mechanism itself. Ask yourself: Do You want denying to be an essential part of a game? You can always add other features, which would shift the game balance otherwise.
When denying in Dota prevented 100% xp and there was no safe money and assist money, the game was a giant farm fest. Everything was about lane control and farming money; everything was static. Not that it required any less skill than a ganking-oriented gameplay, it was just the most rewarding, the most useful way, so top teams used it.
What would happen, if we make denies less rewarding, like still give 100% xp? Denies would still be useful, because enemy still gets no money.
However, what would happen, if we reward other things, like increasing hero kill and assist money drastically and intrduce the safe money for hero kills etc just like happened in dota: Suddenly everything is about ganking, you see triple- and even quadlanes all over the place, less overall farm etc. Does it take less skill now, because denying is not THAT useful anymore? I doubt so.
Imagine we introduce bonus gold for creep kill streaks; like slaying 3 creeps at once gives some bonus gold. What would happen? If useful enough, this would encourage the use of spells to finish enemy units. Suddenly, slaying creeps fast with abilities is considered skilled (right now it is unwanted pushing, giving up lane control, allowing enemies easier farm, so overall bad. Could be seen kinda counter- intuitive as well; slaying enemy troops benefits the enemy more than us?)
If you try to last hit normally, you will lose money you could have gotten when killing 3 creeps with a spell instead of killing each one with a last hit. If you try to hit them in the red to be able to slay them fast enough with attacks, your enemy can easily interfere by denying or stunning in the right moment.
Another scenario: Lets say we introduce random events, like gold coins popping near the battlefield. There would be like a 3 sec signal where a coin pops and suddenly, this area becomes the hottest spot on the whole map when 2 lanes desparately try to reach that spot and keep the opponents from reaching it. Noone would care about denies in this moment and if the gold amount is rewarding enough, the best, the most skilled team would be the one capable of acquiring the highest number of coins... very similar to the runes, actually, which play a huge role in the game as well.
These were just random examples, there are probably way better possibilities to make the gameplay more interesting.
So, my conclusion is: Its not the denying specifically, that makes dota a game which requires more skill. Its just something to invest the skill of a player in. Its something useful anyone can do anytime to benefit the team. If you take out denying, yes, you take out a strategic element. But you could always replace it. Actually, denying is one of the less interesting ways of adding more strategy to the game, I am sure there are way more entertaining ways to utilize player skill.
Denying is actually one of the main reasons I dislike DotA and HoN so much together with the horrid community, horrible interface and horrible graphics, no, this is not referring to the wc3 graphics, DotA was just a very, very ugly, badly terrained map (which is the only reason juking was even possible). HoN looks "better", but it's cluttered with useless effects - which, in my eyes, is "horrible graphics" as well. In fact, they put me off of the entire AoS genre completely until I started playing LoL.
Honestly, denying isn't especially fun to do; it doesn't feel rewarding from the side doing it as opposed to last hitting - you don't get any shiny gold, you simply deny the others from getting gold. From a global point; it's as rewarding as last hitting, but it doesn't feel even close to as rewarding. Honestly, if they didn't make the exclamation mark appear over a denied unit, you wouldn't feel as if you'd have gotten anything out of it at all.
On the opposing side it does feel punishing on the receiving side - they've just lost gold and experience, meaning they can't get the items and levels that make the game fun for them. This is what's known as a loss-loss situation; it makes the game less fun for one side, and not any more fun for the other, meaning your game has a nett loss of fun.
Furthermore, it creates a gap between good and bad players. A lot of players will go "yea, good players need to shine!" and sure, they should perform better. But if you create so much of these spots where good players gain huge advantages over worse ones to the point where the worse ones can't actually do anything it'll just make them quit your game once and for all. No matter how good the rest of your map is, if they get steamrolled, killed constantly and end up level 5 at the 30 minute mark they will never play your game again. And when one player is so strong that he can 1v5 an entire team (as can be done in DotA and HoN) this is "kinda cool" for that one player, "not fun in the slightest" for the 5 opposing players, and "meh" for the players 4 teammates because they feel as if they're not contributing anything.
If you want to cater to the DotA players, go ahead and add in denying. Just why exactly would they play your map above DotA, HoN, SotIS, Valve's DotA or any of the dozens existing DotA clones?
If you want to cater to newer players, leave out denying and make your map newb friendly. It's up to you.
I'm going to have to agree with marks thoughts. Back in war3 I played dota a few times, but the game and players were very unforgiving for noobs. and that put me off straight away, how on earth are you meant to think of denying without someone telling you.
All in all its up to you, but new players that come to your game and don't know in depth stratergies like denying and get owned by another player, are more than likly going to be put off playing again. Where if the gameplay had been a bit more about combat between the two players and it had been a closer game, players are likly to play again
I am a dota noob, so of course I don't like it. But yeah. It's very, very anti-noob. And that's the biggest issue with dota. In my opinion, League of Legends did a better-than-average job for noobs. There is a tutorial, item recommendations, no denies, and clear instructions. The community sucks, but there's nothing they can do about that.
Do you like denying or do you think it's better without it? I'm using this to determine whether it should be included in a potential future project.
In case you don't know what denying is, it's when people try to get the killing blow on their own allied units or towers so that the other side doesn't get the money/xp.
denying = good.
its not like you have to do it even if you can...
Attached a poll.
I do like it though. Adds more finesse to the game.
I recall it was implemented due to game limitations in WC3, though I can't quite recall it.
I think it's a core mechanic in the gameplay and shouldn't be removed.
Just something extra to worry about, and can certainly turn the tide of the game.
It's good but I think to be fair the opponent deserves that kill and money. If a player gets killed it's his fault for not having run when he should have. If a player keeps getting killed I'll start denying.
I don't play DotA(never have, neither have I played LoL) but I do play HoN from time to time, and I love denying. It's an integral part of the game style.
Be fair? DotA/LoL/HoN are COMPETITIVE games... there is no fairness, only skill. If you can't get the last hits, you change lanes, go jungle, or ask for a gank. Simple.
:D
I always felt "denying" had no place in a team based map. It's like shooting your own team-mate in an fps to stop the other team getting a point; you get punished for that, not rewarded. Yeah, they both take skill to do, but both feel out of place in my mind.
There is a difference between denying creeps and team-killing other players, isn't it?
@madmaxII: Go
No, you're still killing your own team.
@Eiviyn: Go
Thats your point of view. IMO creeps/mobs are just running bags of money, and being able to pick it up (last hit) or prevent enemy from getting it (denying it) raises skillcap of the game.
Well, while I do not think that denying is a bad thing, you have to take into account, that it can potentially be devastating to the gameplay. If denying does not give any xp or gold, the game will only evolve on trying to get more and more denys. You will need countermeasures for this. (dota introtuced denies still giving xp, because 0 xp was way overpowered, also had to re-think the whole hero killing/reward system because the game became only about creep killing and denying, hero kills were more or less ineffective - for those reasons LoL banned denying completely from their game)
Denying is good, because it gives players something to do; however it shifts the focus from hero vs hero fights. You have to ask yourself, if you want that.
In my opinion denying is bad. Just as Kueken531 said, it shifts the gameplay from PvP to PvE and outlasting becomes more important.
Denying adds a unnessessary complexity. It requires balance though since you need enough complexity to keep it interresting but not too much as it will be too hard to get people into it. And the laning phase is where you try to get a headstart, it's not supposed to be the focus of the game.
I dont think denying was thought of as a feature in DotA, but more like a side-effect from using the engine. ( Same goes for the auto-hit scan radius. )
Denying is in my opinion bad for a gamemode that revolves around PvP.
And the main reason why I think it's bad is because it's not fun.
Denying brings competitiveness into the DotA-game.
Denying just helps non-noobs own the noobs more. In my book thats a win win. Anything that makes noobs get owned more = FTW.
How does denying = passive.....
You have to be fairly good at first of all. Secondly if were talking dota style deny, you can only really deny the creep when its below 10% health and that means your aiming for the last hit on the creep.
Most players do not even last hit creeps they are against, these people are noobs. Most people on LOL have no idea what i mean by "last hitting" they just auto attack creeps. I wish I could deny in LOL because most the time I can rock a noob in dota and prevent them from getting half the creeps to kill. This is because most people are terribad at timing the last hits in.
Beware if you lane with me in LOL you wont be making much money from creep kills =). Its all about the last hits.
Thats exactly my point, actually. Denying gives you a great advantage, so does last-hitting. Everyone, who realizes that, does it. Everyone who does it good, feels good about it, he feels like he is good in this game. And why? Because he is right. He IS good at this game, because denying is so damn useful! If you can (ab)use the most useful strategies in a game, you are usually good at it.
However, this has nothing to do with the denying mechanism itself. Ask yourself: Do You want denying to be an essential part of a game? You can always add other features, which would shift the game balance otherwise.
When denying in Dota prevented 100% xp and there was no safe money and assist money, the game was a giant farm fest. Everything was about lane control and farming money; everything was static. Not that it required any less skill than a ganking-oriented gameplay, it was just the most rewarding, the most useful way, so top teams used it.
What would happen, if we make denies less rewarding, like still give 100% xp? Denies would still be useful, because enemy still gets no money.
However, what would happen, if we reward other things, like increasing hero kill and assist money drastically and intrduce the safe money for hero kills etc just like happened in dota: Suddenly everything is about ganking, you see triple- and even quadlanes all over the place, less overall farm etc. Does it take less skill now, because denying is not THAT useful anymore? I doubt so.
Imagine we introduce bonus gold for creep kill streaks; like slaying 3 creeps at once gives some bonus gold. What would happen? If useful enough, this would encourage the use of spells to finish enemy units. Suddenly, slaying creeps fast with abilities is considered skilled (right now it is unwanted pushing, giving up lane control, allowing enemies easier farm, so overall bad. Could be seen kinda counter- intuitive as well; slaying enemy troops benefits the enemy more than us?)
If you try to last hit normally, you will lose money you could have gotten when killing 3 creeps with a spell instead of killing each one with a last hit. If you try to hit them in the red to be able to slay them fast enough with attacks, your enemy can easily interfere by denying or stunning in the right moment.
Another scenario: Lets say we introduce random events, like gold coins popping near the battlefield. There would be like a 3 sec signal where a coin pops and suddenly, this area becomes the hottest spot on the whole map when 2 lanes desparately try to reach that spot and keep the opponents from reaching it. Noone would care about denies in this moment and if the gold amount is rewarding enough, the best, the most skilled team would be the one capable of acquiring the highest number of coins... very similar to the runes, actually, which play a huge role in the game as well.
These were just random examples, there are probably way better possibilities to make the gameplay more interesting.
So, my conclusion is: Its not the denying specifically, that makes dota a game which requires more skill. Its just something to invest the skill of a player in. Its something useful anyone can do anytime to benefit the team. If you take out denying, yes, you take out a strategic element. But you could always replace it. Actually, denying is one of the less interesting ways of adding more strategy to the game, I am sure there are way more entertaining ways to utilize player skill.
Thanks for making this a poll, S3rius. Also thank you everyone else for your different views and opinions. It has been very helpful.
Denying is actually one of the main reasons I dislike DotA and HoN so much together with the horrid community, horrible interface and horrible graphics, no, this is not referring to the wc3 graphics, DotA was just a very, very ugly, badly terrained map (which is the only reason juking was even possible). HoN looks "better", but it's cluttered with useless effects - which, in my eyes, is "horrible graphics" as well. In fact, they put me off of the entire AoS genre completely until I started playing LoL.
Honestly, denying isn't especially fun to do; it doesn't feel rewarding from the side doing it as opposed to last hitting - you don't get any shiny gold, you simply deny the others from getting gold. From a global point; it's as rewarding as last hitting, but it doesn't feel even close to as rewarding. Honestly, if they didn't make the exclamation mark appear over a denied unit, you wouldn't feel as if you'd have gotten anything out of it at all.
On the opposing side it does feel punishing on the receiving side - they've just lost gold and experience, meaning they can't get the items and levels that make the game fun for them. This is what's known as a loss-loss situation; it makes the game less fun for one side, and not any more fun for the other, meaning your game has a nett loss of fun.
Furthermore, it creates a gap between good and bad players. A lot of players will go "yea, good players need to shine!" and sure, they should perform better. But if you create so much of these spots where good players gain huge advantages over worse ones to the point where the worse ones can't actually do anything it'll just make them quit your game once and for all. No matter how good the rest of your map is, if they get steamrolled, killed constantly and end up level 5 at the 30 minute mark they will never play your game again. And when one player is so strong that he can 1v5 an entire team (as can be done in DotA and HoN) this is "kinda cool" for that one player, "not fun in the slightest" for the 5 opposing players, and "meh" for the players 4 teammates because they feel as if they're not contributing anything.
If you want to cater to the DotA players, go ahead and add in denying. Just why exactly would they play your map above DotA, HoN, SotIS, Valve's DotA or any of the dozens existing DotA clones?
If you want to cater to newer players, leave out denying and make your map newb friendly. It's up to you.
I'm going to have to agree with marks thoughts. Back in war3 I played dota a few times, but the game and players were very unforgiving for noobs. and that put me off straight away, how on earth are you meant to think of denying without someone telling you.
All in all its up to you, but new players that come to your game and don't know in depth stratergies like denying and get owned by another player, are more than likly going to be put off playing again. Where if the gameplay had been a bit more about combat between the two players and it had been a closer game, players are likly to play again
Denying is also a strategy... just don't include auto-deny ok? :))
No, I don't like it =/
I am a dota noob, so of course I don't like it. But yeah. It's very, very anti-noob. And that's the biggest issue with dota. In my opinion, League of Legends did a better-than-average job for noobs. There is a tutorial, item recommendations, no denies, and clear instructions. The community sucks, but there's nothing they can do about that.
@trigeriger: Go
Welcome to sc2mapster :D