SC2Mapster

Quote from Forge_User_59026135: Go

@darklordofspawn: Go

if the first public release is already blowing people away, küken has done something right. you don'T want ever release a first version, which is not already good. the first game people play on your map is probably the most important

Depends on what you call the first version. Plus, some maps don't hit "V1.0" for a while, some spend quite a long time before hitting V1.0. But when the first public release blows your audience away, you've either created something that'll be a Platinum Map (or whatever Blizzard is calling the maps you can have people pay for) or they weren't expecting anything nearly that good.

Quote from Kueken531: Go

@Sandman366: Go As for the name, I will go for just HeroLineWars, I think. HLW WoL is already taken and so is Hero Line Wars with spaces. However, while without spaces might look awkward, it comes in handy with Blizzard's retarded search bar - if you search Hero Line Wars you will get about every map with "hero", "line" and "wars" in it, so you need so scroll a while to get to Hero Line Wars. In one word, without spaces, you should be able to find it instantly.

I thought there was only one other HLW being made? Meh. Anyway, yeah, it does look awkward without spaces...but eh. (Spell out WoL and/or HLW? [HLW: Wings of Liberty; Hero Line Wars: WoL; Hero Line Wars: Wings of Liberty; perhaps no colon but the point was made])

@darklordofspawn: Go

I can be however I want to be. Learn to live in the now sometimes, because now we're about to get HLW WoL! (No? Did we ever settle on a name?) And yeah it might not seem very good at first. That's why the first version is rarely (if ever) the final version. :P

@Kueken531: Go Very few words describe this. One is "Awesome". I'll use that.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Did I overdo it? :/ Lol)

Okay then! :) But the Ultimate I mean is far too short. Most Ults are long CD and long term effects, this one seems like the guy is lifted into the air, shoots old-style PsiStorm bolts hitting everything in front of him, and done. Hardly seems channeling when it's like 5 seconds tops. I might've used that thing as an escape spell, but eh. I still think HT model makes him feel squishy. They're always squishy so I guess it's kinda become the norm.

And no, I don't mean you have to come up with something completely original every time. I was trying to poke fun at you ripping off your own ideas -.- And don't replace the chain lightning like thing. It's good! It gives multi-target without having to try to squish a line of guys for an aoe, which might not work out anyway.

Public Beta? (Eyes go bigger than O_O, mouth smiles and drops larger than =D) (Or does that just sound ridiculous?)

However, yay! Pub Beta! Would love a new reason to get on SC2 these days, kinda bored of most of the other maps atm...(and it'd give a reason to stop only playing priv games too hahaha)

Thoughts on Erekul (watched part of vid, paused, wrote thoughts, went back to vid, repeat): "DT" with HT unit? That'll confuse people who don't know what custom maps are...hah. Chain lightning like skill, sweet. Wind Walk like ramming skill....that looks kinda cool actually. Reminds me of one of those guys in RoC, one of the later versions, the Ghost Rider guy I think it was...looks like you're kinda ripping off own skills :P. Third skill: So it's kinda like Maar's "graviton prison" (or whatever it was) only groups....okay, cool. Ultimate...wow. How to describe? Hmm, anyway, it seems way too short. I mean you got what was there and that was it. Channeling skill...for about 3 seconds? Far too short in my opinion. Overall: I think my main problem with this guy is the model, HT model just makes me think the guy'll be very squishy, and one of those makes me think you'll be tanking a lot of damage should you not kill everything with it (WW ram). However, he looks good. (Should I post thoughts on other heroes like this? Critique every skill & overall thoughts?)

Edit: You had to reinstall Windows TWICE? I've never reinstalled it ever, and I've had one XP computer for like 6-7 years now.....

Yeah I was tired when I wrote that :P

I found at times 30 min farmfest could be hard in right situations. A dozen guys smacking you that heal about as fast as you hit them was basically impossible at first. Until you could take 3 hits, unless you're fighting 2/3 of the weakest things it was hard. And still was hard in some cases.

As for the PvP stuff, yeah very little was balanced for PvP. It was basically whomever could tome the most or stun the longest would win. And in some cases, there still was no winner, because you got stunned too long to actually kill them, and they couldn't deal anything near enough to kill you. (One occasion comes to mind. Spawn VS Jaina. Jaina couldn't kill me because skills weren't stat based, and I couldn't kill Jaina because of stuns in spells.)

Anyway, having a beta soon would be awesome. (I'd love to test AI, or do you not have that in yet?)

Quote from Kueken531: Go

Well, HLW was not really balanced for the usual public games, where masses and masses of creeps were sent. Within our clan and in tournaments, another style of play has been developed over time, which included sending very few, but powerful monsters, very early upgrades and as a result, heroes with very little income and level compared to your usual public game. For this kind of gameplay, most of those "weak" heroes were actually really strong (for example, jaina was an extremely powerful hero for this mode, while the old blademaster prior to his remake pretty much sucked), and most of the times, games ended at around 50-75k income; quite some time before heroes with massive amounts of stats could dominate the creeps.

In SC2, the whole balancing will be completely different; I don't think it is even possible to recreate the exact same behavior like in WC3. We will see, how this works out.

Also, right now the starts, Strength, Agility and Intelligence already have direct influence on ability damage, since agi increases ranged damage, str increases melee damage (some abilities might cause ranged or melee damage as well) and int increases spell damage (so the majority of spells already gets bonus damage from increased intelligence).

Yeah I had some games end with less than 1k income...I don't care for those. Saving for big stuff is what some people did, and I found stupid honestly. Took too long to get decent income, which was kinda what the whole game was about. Get highest income to be the winning in most cases. However, if I had to say any hero was a bit overpowered, I'd say Hell Spawn. I could get no items/tomes until "Better" creeps, then I only needed 3. (Then again, I was possibly WAY good at it...)

Anyway, perhaps you could make it so both "modes" of spawning work at once. If you even have similar stuff for spawning.

The stats make sense I guess for skills, although Agility hardly would seem proper for psionic ranged stuff. I'd say that's more of Intelligence, no? Guess I'm thinking more of "Spell" than "ranged ability".

Maybe I'm just way tired and not thinking straight in my response...which is entirely possible...and I feel like I'm rambling again...(which seems to be happening a lot lately)

I think what Dark Lord means is that most abilities are useless late game (at least in HLW RoC)

Useless stuff on Hell Spawn would be Dark Regen, it's like his best move until you start getting massive tomes. Knockback was weak but the freeze/stun made it good. Tauren Soldier's (forgetting his name =O) cleave was really good late game, and his torch move (the one that made his damage go up a TON for a short time) was a bit rigged late game. Most agi heroes were good until late game, Int being almost useless most of the game. (There were like 2-3 that were good Int characters for a long time. Dragon Rider was really good, and Furion was good but took zero skill and was kinda lame tbh)

Random thought: What about a way to disable specific characters? Like in RoC I'd love to disable Furion once in a while because he's just plain gay, takes no skill, and is for the lazy noobs. Only starts being useless in PvP when Strength guys had a billion HP and Furion had like 500k (if that, the only hard part about PvP w/ Furion was if they had Vamp pots you had to only have 1 person fighting at a time or he'd heal epic fast...)

iRamble a bit....oops...(then again, thoughts for the map. Something could be used! =D

Yeah I'm sure it'd be difficult, but it'd give some extra incentive to match race if you didn't have to.

Well yeah, having the SC2 version out ASAP would be nice, and maybe someone else could update for you. (It's a bit of a pain to see some of those higher HPs, so it'd take a while for me to update it, and I wasn't suggesting me in the first place.) I was just thinking so that people there got accurate information, because I remember a few parts there weren't correct. If nothing else, you could look at stuff from that map for other ideas for this one.

It was just an example...I'm not saying we'll all have billions of HP, however in long games it could happen. Say one two people have 2.5k HP, one buys an item that gives 2.5k HP and 50% hp bonus (base hp) and the other gets an item that's 5k HP bonus. When they buy them right then and there, the 5k one seems more useful, however only at first, because once the first guy has over 5k base HP, his is more useful. Which was sorta my point, %based usually tend to work better in the long run than base #s, even if it could be like 5% or something because even if your gain for that 5% bonus is only 100, those 5s from each 100 will add up very very fast.

Perhaps if you're the same race as your creeps you send (hero race at least) then they get a slight bonus. Nothing to make it imbalanced, but something to be work looking in to for people. Like a 5% or perhaps even 10% bonus to damage/life/armor/MS/AS/shields/energy/skill damage/regen/etc. Of course not all of them get bonuses, perhaps they could pick which bonuses they want (like you can get +5% damage or +10% life, or pick 3 of 5, or something) to make things more interesting. Just spouting any ideas I can think of.

By the way, you should update the RoC site's info. I know some of the creep infos were wrong, like some had incorrect HPs listed. And yeah, Aszune in long games was mostly for the revive time. 50k hp when you have 500k str isn't very much.

Another thought: If armors if bonuses (say, +10 armor) perhaps it should be a set number and a % (like +500 hp and +5% hp) so it's never a complete waste of money, it can be useful after quite some time. And a +50k HP would be much more useful earlier on, once you have over 5m HP (I've had millions of agi on HLW RoC before, not in debug) the +5% would be more like 250k bonus instead of just 50k, which is a lot more useful in the long run.

Heart late game was mostly the 50% revive time, and Dagger was epic for the mirror image. Shield was mega reduce+super damage. So I'd say those are actually your basic concepts. And no, I wouldn't expect you to just recreate the RoC items.

And as for not being able to see the whole map, let us at least see spawn areas and slightly past that. That way we can tell what's coming, and approx how long it should take to get to you.

Other thoughts: Perhaps the mapwide vision could be a mode. (-mw, -vs, -mv are possibles for just 2 letters, possibility for 3 letters -mwv). Also, will things like upgrade bonuses be there? And no upgrade bonus modes? (Or upgrade bonus modes?) Also, could it be set so you can choose what racial spawner you want? Some people might not see you have to choose race based on what race of hero/creeps you want, so that could end up confusing people. (However, would make "Random" race much more interesting. Means you have at least one hero each race you're willing to use...I ask these because I thought you said you were going to make heroes for each race, and lobby is where you'd pick race.)

Other questions/thoughts too, but they seemed to have scrambled themselves as I typed this...however I believe they were related to old modes and which you were going to keep (or base new modes on)

I meant that as to say that I don't want to sound like I'm telling you what to do.

After reading Shadow's ideas I had a couple of thoughts of my own, like the Helmet, some of them could make it so when you attack and the enemy has an evasion, the evasion is ignored because of "accuracy". Perhaps armor (perhaps "robe/cape") could give some evasion

What I'd like to see are things like (HLW RoC references for those who don't get them) Heart of Aszune, Shield of Honor, whatever the shade dagger thing was (mirror image+corruption+evade), and the tiara thing (negative auras to enemies). Granted they don't have to be things like a shield and dagger etc, just the concepts of their effects. Because those 4 with speed/vamp pots was basically the best set of items imo :P

Helmet would be vision, Boots would be movespeed, Weapon is obviously damage and perhaps attack speed, Armor would be armor and maybe some stats. Accessories would have assorted effects from movespeed to vision to armor to damage to attack speed to stats to spells and possibly more.

Or at least that'd be my guess with that if they're all supposed to do something. Obviously it being your map and me kinda sucking at SC2 mapping I couldn't really do it myself, but those'd be my suggestions.

I thought more along the lines of each race can only buy certain items. Like, a Zerg hero walks up, can buy what it allows him to buy, and can give it to someone else even if they aren't zerg, but they can't buy it themselves. They're allied with a zerg, so it could in theory work. (SC1: Lieutenant Duran worked with Kerrigan, went from Terran Infantry Armor to Zerg Carapace. What's to stop Kueken from having his "version" of Duran from having Terran Infantry Armor AND Zerg Carapace?)

Anyway, I'm sorta rambling again. Or it sure feels like it. But my point got across, right?

Liking it so far, except for the items. And only a small problem. One armor, 2 weapons? Sorry, it makes sense the other way around (2 armors 1 weapon), especially since I'm sure many weapons are going to be "2-handed" (even gauss rifles use 2 hands per rifle, normally). Was thinking like, one helm, one torso, and one legs, but realized: that's 3.

Another thought! What about different items for each "race"? Terrans use guns, Protoss use psionic stuff, and Zerg obviously use biological weaponry, and similar stuff for their armors. Perhaps Terrans have armors like suits (marine suit, viking suit, [name] suit, etc), since they're always in some kind of suit of armor (unless they're like BCs, but then they have dress suits). And I've not a clue what you'd do for Protoss (at least name wise) but Zerg would be different carapaces for armors, probably claws/spines for weapons.