This i do not like. Why should we not make WoW boss battles? Some people have never seen them before which makes them new for them. It is also possible to add your own flavors to them. I find that some WoW boss battles are extremely fun. Also, most people tend to leech ideas from other people to help make their own maps better.
I just don't understand why you are telling us to not to WoW boss fights. How many people have seen some of the original 40 man raid bosses, or how about some of the harder bosses that no one has ever gotten to because new content has been produced?
I know you are voicing your opinion but please try not to state something that will restrict the creativity of people. WoW has done everything and they stole before that.
Because not everyone who plays SC2 should like WoW... >_>
In my sense, 40 Man raids are just huge "spell-fest-melee-spamming-range-smacking" boss fighting nonsense that usually lasts more than a hour?
And how is 40 man raids original? Are you SERIOUS?! Ragnarok Online is much older and I do remember playing private servers with a LOT of players hunting MVP bosses.
40 Man raids? Please, I think Mabinogi is even harder and Mabinogians (players) usually do up to 100 player raids of Peaca Normal, which is a LOT harder than your typical point and click game (there's no buff and debuff skills in this game, you get hit, and you WILL get hit, and you will die). Mainly because you gotta be active and the game doesn't play for you or whatever for 30 or so minutes. It's real time combat dangit.
There's about 50+ people in the crowd I'm guessing? 6 Guilds, and the average guild consists of at least 20-50 active members to a max of 200. That was 2 year back when it had much less contents. You can now easily beat Peaca with a few new skills or tricks you can learn, but that's what Peaca basic and eventually, Peaca intermediate modes are for.
If by the end "They be done to death" Then they are done to death. It's just better for some people to orient their creativity in something OTHER than a MMO. Besides, there are other boss battles you could try to make, with some ideas from actual games that is, and not entire bosses from A GAME.
Someone in here will definitely waste their time and effort to create a mini-mmo of WoW in SC2's feature, only to probably be blocked or bashed later on when Blizzard actually "confirms" their own development of the game. Think smarter people...
And also, stop saying things like "Blizzard created this so it's original" or "Blizzard stole the ideas before other people" because that by itself ain't true. Heck, if you noticed from one of the main videos posted on the news on this site, one of em was about Plant Vs Zombies IN world of warcraft!
I may not be a excellent mapper or programmer, but I do at least see a picture where other people can't see.
I wonder why nobody took the missile ideas to incorporate into the boss battles?
Area attacks that spreads out and makes you coordinate to avoid them, not "click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click"...
You can also take some ideas from the Odin nuke, making it possible to do a area attack by shooting a shower of missiles into the sky to bombard an area randomly.
Red small "nuke" indicator can work to pin point each area and it should last 3 seconds before the missile hits the area.
- Using SC2's attack and move feature, you wanna avoid having your boss being able to do hit and runs and unleash rapid melee attacks for little to no reason. Its the same way as you would "imagine" a boss fight, it's challenging because of it having new tricks, not just because it's so repetitiveness and fast. There is no reason to make a "super" tank boss that is also super fast.
- Giving the boss a single ability, try to give them a vast number of "options" when using it in a boss battle. Bosses should prioritize certain options to their current health or based on the situation of the area.
- Making the boss battle feel like a cheap knock off of SC2 in a third person game, take your time to make it unique in a way that it doesn't disappoint people right off the bat. Yes I'm thinking indie leveled games for maps like these, which is what blizzard considers "high quality".
I have a few suggestion to make boss battle unique:
- All boss battles have a area attack that occurs once in a while, and a common attack that occurs after a period of time. Be sure to add a AI trigger in it to "switch up" it's game so it doesn't repeat the same pattern endlessly. An example is using the campaign's laser drill as a boss, making the map vast, and making it so the characters has to follow an objective to shut down the machine or risk being fried by a super long range laser. Make sure the laser can only "target" after every 2530 seconds, and when it tracks a target, it stops aiming and shoots a line of laser in that direction! This is the vital part that some people miss. On on this later.
- Bosses shouldn't chase it's targets, it should rather summon minions to do the dirty work if the players are too far away.
- Bosses should always have a backup plan, in that case that it's not doing too well in a short period of time. Berserk status is one possibility, raising the speed of which it "acts".
If you'd rather keep doing WoW boss. Don't. It's just better if you created a new boss from scratch, and plan out all it's features that you'd want.
When making a boss, and getting in combat with them, don't make them continously home in on you with the typical SC2 attacks.
Bosses in MHFU for example are based on this principle:
- Bosses ALWAYS do area attacks, but when calculating attacks, aims in the DIRECTION of the most aggroing player. This makes them target you, but if you run around in a circle, they don't run around in a circle. They should stop and "look" at your movements, and then decide on it's AI or attacks, depending on distance, health, and opponent's status(sleep, poisoned, stunned, etc.).
- Bosses should have a "Personality" when it comes to interaction, no "immediate" aggro and chasing, when they should get pissed and "roar" at you for example, before starting their attacks. Only certain bosses bypasses this if you attack them with heavy or animation altering attacks (stunning or affecting the boss in a way it stops roaring and starts combat immediately).
- Bosses are supposed to be flawed in their movements. They ARE big hulking monsters that can't dance to your movements.
This means:
1) Remove all the monster's "Attack" function in SC2. Period. You don't want them chasing after you with constant attacks, makes it look too RTS styled.
2) Remove all player character's attack function and give them "attack abilities" that varies to their class or weapons. All attack abilities should have cooldowns, and some can affect others in terms of cooldowns... All attack abilities are area attacks that can be used to target a "direction" of your character (ala diablo can work).
For example, a Great Sword user should have a max melee range of 2, has a slower attack speed than most weapons, and should have moderate cooldown times on the abilities:
Hack - The basic long range vertical downward slash. Should take 2 seconds to use and hit. Cooldown of 1 second.
Slash - A wide range medium range (1.5) sideway slash, takes 2 seconds to use. 1 Second Cooldown.
Upper - A upper slash dealing high damage and can hit opponents behind the direction of your aim. Most damage is from the front. 2 Seconds to use if used right after a Hack or Slash, 3 second if used alone. Cooldown of 2 seconds.
How the abilities work:
You use hack, and the other skills becomes locked until the time wears off. But you can quickly "combo" by timing your "abilities" at the right time.
Hacking takes 2 seconds, but you can't hack a second time, hence the 1 second cooldown. So you use slash after a hack, with a 1 second cooldown, and you can use a upper later.
Note that in MHFU using a hack after a upper is much slower than using a slash after a upper.
It might be a good idea to also make giant stationary bosses... Like a giant mechanical boss that does different abilities (and animations) at random sequences.
But for it to be a nice gameplay, I think normal foes must be taken care of before the boss fights, because being forced to fight a hard boss right off the bat is a little harsh/rushed.
Using fixed animations like "flamethrower" abilities and making the area set on fire is a good example.
Nice music should be considered, but knowing blizzard, you can't just drop any music in...
If someone does improve the map testing software, you can use it on your map to create a efficient map.
Forgot what it's called but it basically checks your melee maps for bases and shortcuts, etc.
You build a base out of shapes, and you position towers to protect it!
Maybe it can be unique and competitive... Every shape has a use. Like cubes can be used for walls and gates. Walls blocks off the opponent's line of sight, allowing towers to have an advantage. Gates (rectangle) allows allied units to pass through. Circles are tower, and they can be upgraded with unique abilities. Triangles are the units spawned, the bigger the triangle the stronger the unit.
Defend your fortress, and destroy the others' fort!
A cooperative minigame can do, as a way to give points to everyone regardless if teams or alliances.
Maybe "Boss" battles in a way, where if one player lives, everyone gains points.
The catch is that you can also get bonus points for picking up coins in the game (use shapes that blizzard gives you).
So with those ideas in mind:
A "Boss" chase minigame where a Giant Brutalisk is chasing you, and you are running away on a "fixed" screen.
There will be debris/obstacles blocking your way so you have to carefully navigate through them. Coins will also appear.
The boss moves much slower than your unit, but since it takes place on a "fixed" screen, you have to move and wait for more terrain to appear.
What we really need to piss off blizzard is probably have someone create a unofficial client that doesn't have most of the broken features found in the game. Still possible to log on and such but such a program would force blizzard to stop ignoring such a fault.
This could bring in some interesting twists to RTS games...
Maybe faster paced ones where players have resources and is able to call down "structures" that sets up and automates themselves to produce structures and basically have AI control the army...
Think nexus wars but more freeform and closer to melee... You're not forcing the AI to build and do certain things, you're guiding them.
Orbital Wars anyone? You drop base structures to be constructed by your team's scv bots, to produce units. You have to do it within a radius of influence, making it important to expand the "territory".
Hmm but i'm not a good map maker to bother with the triggers to make such a map, I attempted triggers once before and it killed my interests in mapping for SC2. D:
It's way harder and harsher than SC1 mapping... So technically you can say this is more programming and less scripting.
Maps like Nexus wars really need this, to lessen unit use and more on tactical use of units.
But having a armor change will really skew things around compared to the normal armor system...
Zerglings comes in a pair of 2 and does 5 damage each at a rapid pace... If armor was in % wise, it may or may not be so effective against a marine in some ways:
Marine (5 armor) <<< Zergling (5 damage)
Each hit deals 1 damage.
Marine (5% armor) <<< Zergling (5 damage)
Each hit deals 4.75 damage. Which doesn't really work with such a small damage.
So in that case, why not implement both?
Non-percentage armor is for "Defense"
Percentage armor is for "Protection"
The MMORPG mabinogi uses this, allowing players to choose whether to go for defense or protection.
Wow this is great, I took a programming in school earlier (It was in Java) and as usual much of it is the same, just slightly different names for stuff (method/function). This toturial covers the basics for someone new to galaxy while having programmed before in a different language, but doesn't really go in to see how to use this to affect actual ingame effects and stuff. Though once I get used to using GUI, looking at premade triggers will show me. Thanks for this guide, It has really peaked my interest in coding/mapmaking again (I was a aoe2 mapmaker).
Same, but I would find it easier to adapt into this if you put the tutorial into a separate page with it's own menus, making it easier to backtrack for information.
Maybe include quick guides and tutorials for commonly scripted things people usually want (like ordering a unit to chase another unit or basic things like adding units into cargo). I could not spawn a medivac with 4 marines for example with the GUI seeing how it confuses the fk outta me. Each term listed in there might mean something different when programmer says them, and it never works out either because I used the wrong one, or didn't know how to set it up.
As for the quick guides, it should be more of a supply and demand, have a list with the most popular scripting need and create a guide for each one that covers it at the time.
For example:
Basic - How to create units in a location, over time, and with modified unit variables.
The reason why we need a huge variety of different guides, is because everyone seems to want to do something, but you never really can tell how they want to do it.
0
Because not everyone who plays SC2 should like WoW... >_>
In my sense, 40 Man raids are just huge "spell-fest-melee-spamming-range-smacking" boss fighting nonsense that usually lasts more than a hour?
And how is 40 man raids original? Are you SERIOUS?! Ragnarok Online is much older and I do remember playing private servers with a LOT of players hunting MVP bosses.
40 Man raids? Please, I think Mabinogi is even harder and Mabinogians (players) usually do up to 100 player raids of Peaca Normal, which is a LOT harder than your typical point and click game (there's no buff and debuff skills in this game, you get hit, and you WILL get hit, and you will die). Mainly because you gotta be active and the game doesn't play for you or whatever for 30 or so minutes. It's real time combat dangit.
There's about 50+ people in the crowd I'm guessing? 6 Guilds, and the average guild consists of at least 20-50 active members to a max of 200. That was 2 year back when it had much less contents. You can now easily beat Peaca with a few new skills or tricks you can learn, but that's what Peaca basic and eventually, Peaca intermediate modes are for.
If by the end "They be done to death" Then they are done to death. It's just better for some people to orient their creativity in something OTHER than a MMO. Besides, there are other boss battles you could try to make, with some ideas from actual games that is, and not entire bosses from A GAME.
Someone in here will definitely waste their time and effort to create a mini-mmo of WoW in SC2's feature, only to probably be blocked or bashed later on when Blizzard actually "confirms" their own development of the game. Think smarter people...
And also, stop saying things like "Blizzard created this so it's original" or "Blizzard stole the ideas before other people" because that by itself ain't true. Heck, if you noticed from one of the main videos posted on the news on this site, one of em was about Plant Vs Zombies IN world of warcraft!
I may not be a excellent mapper or programmer, but I do at least see a picture where other people can't see.
0
I wonder why nobody took the missile ideas to incorporate into the boss battles?
Area attacks that spreads out and makes you coordinate to avoid them, not "click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click"...
You can also take some ideas from the Odin nuke, making it possible to do a area attack by shooting a shower of missiles into the sky to bombard an area randomly.
Red small "nuke" indicator can work to pin point each area and it should last 3 seconds before the missile hits the area.
0
When making a boss, try to avoid:
- Using SC2's attack and move feature, you wanna avoid having your boss being able to do hit and runs and unleash rapid melee attacks for little to no reason. Its the same way as you would "imagine" a boss fight, it's challenging because of it having new tricks, not just because it's so repetitiveness and fast. There is no reason to make a "super" tank boss that is also super fast.
- Giving the boss a single ability, try to give them a vast number of "options" when using it in a boss battle. Bosses should prioritize certain options to their current health or based on the situation of the area.
- Making the boss battle feel like a cheap knock off of SC2 in a third person game, take your time to make it unique in a way that it doesn't disappoint people right off the bat. Yes I'm thinking indie leveled games for maps like these, which is what blizzard considers "high quality".
I have a few suggestion to make boss battle unique:
- All boss battles have a area attack that occurs once in a while, and a common attack that occurs after a period of time. Be sure to add a AI trigger in it to "switch up" it's game so it doesn't repeat the same pattern endlessly. An example is using the campaign's laser drill as a boss, making the map vast, and making it so the characters has to follow an objective to shut down the machine or risk being fried by a super long range laser. Make sure the laser can only "target" after every 2530 seconds, and when it tracks a target, it stops aiming and shoots a line of laser in that direction! This is the vital part that some people miss. On on this later.
- Bosses shouldn't chase it's targets, it should rather summon minions to do the dirty work if the players are too far away.
- Bosses should always have a backup plan, in that case that it's not doing too well in a short period of time. Berserk status is one possibility, raising the speed of which it "acts".
If you'd rather keep doing WoW boss. Don't. It's just better if you created a new boss from scratch, and plan out all it's features that you'd want.
0
When making a boss, and getting in combat with them, don't make them continously home in on you with the typical SC2 attacks. Bosses in MHFU for example are based on this principle:
- Bosses ALWAYS do area attacks, but when calculating attacks, aims in the DIRECTION of the most aggroing player. This makes them target you, but if you run around in a circle, they don't run around in a circle. They should stop and "look" at your movements, and then decide on it's AI or attacks, depending on distance, health, and opponent's status(sleep, poisoned, stunned, etc.).
- Bosses should have a "Personality" when it comes to interaction, no "immediate" aggro and chasing, when they should get pissed and "roar" at you for example, before starting their attacks. Only certain bosses bypasses this if you attack them with heavy or animation altering attacks (stunning or affecting the boss in a way it stops roaring and starts combat immediately).
- Bosses are supposed to be flawed in their movements. They ARE big hulking monsters that can't dance to your movements.
This means:
1) Remove all the monster's "Attack" function in SC2. Period. You don't want them chasing after you with constant attacks, makes it look too RTS styled.
2) Remove all player character's attack function and give them "attack abilities" that varies to their class or weapons. All attack abilities should have cooldowns, and some can affect others in terms of cooldowns... All attack abilities are area attacks that can be used to target a "direction" of your character (ala diablo can work).
For example, a Great Sword user should have a max melee range of 2, has a slower attack speed than most weapons, and should have moderate cooldown times on the abilities:
Hack - The basic long range vertical downward slash. Should take 2 seconds to use and hit. Cooldown of 1 second.
Slash - A wide range medium range (1.5) sideway slash, takes 2 seconds to use. 1 Second Cooldown.
Upper - A upper slash dealing high damage and can hit opponents behind the direction of your aim. Most damage is from the front. 2 Seconds to use if used right after a Hack or Slash, 3 second if used alone. Cooldown of 2 seconds.
How the abilities work:
You use hack, and the other skills becomes locked until the time wears off. But you can quickly "combo" by timing your "abilities" at the right time.
Hacking takes 2 seconds, but you can't hack a second time, hence the 1 second cooldown. So you use slash after a hack, with a 1 second cooldown, and you can use a upper later.
Note that in MHFU using a hack after a upper is much slower than using a slash after a upper.
0
Can anyone who thinks they can release high quality boss rush maps, make a credits scene with a cool end music?
0
It might be a good idea to also make giant stationary bosses... Like a giant mechanical boss that does different abilities (and animations) at random sequences.
But for it to be a nice gameplay, I think normal foes must be taken care of before the boss fights, because being forced to fight a hard boss right off the bat is a little harsh/rushed.
Using fixed animations like "flamethrower" abilities and making the area set on fire is a good example.
Nice music should be considered, but knowing blizzard, you can't just drop any music in...
0
If someone does improve the map testing software, you can use it on your map to create a efficient map. Forgot what it's called but it basically checks your melee maps for bases and shortcuts, etc.
0
Another use for these shapes can be...
Shape Fortress?
You build a base out of shapes, and you position towers to protect it!
Maybe it can be unique and competitive... Every shape has a use. Like cubes can be used for walls and gates. Walls blocks off the opponent's line of sight, allowing towers to have an advantage. Gates (rectangle) allows allied units to pass through. Circles are tower, and they can be upgraded with unique abilities. Triangles are the units spawned, the bigger the triangle the stronger the unit.
Defend your fortress, and destroy the others' fort!
Another neat idea: ShapeCraft!
LOL!
0
A cooperative minigame can do, as a way to give points to everyone regardless if teams or alliances.
Maybe "Boss" battles in a way, where if one player lives, everyone gains points.
The catch is that you can also get bonus points for picking up coins in the game (use shapes that blizzard gives you).
So with those ideas in mind:
A "Boss" chase minigame where a Giant Brutalisk is chasing you, and you are running away on a "fixed" screen. There will be debris/obstacles blocking your way so you have to carefully navigate through them. Coins will also appear.
The boss moves much slower than your unit, but since it takes place on a "fixed" screen, you have to move and wait for more terrain to appear.
0
What we really need to piss off blizzard is probably have someone create a unofficial client that doesn't have most of the broken features found in the game. Still possible to log on and such but such a program would force blizzard to stop ignoring such a fault.
0
This could bring in some interesting twists to RTS games... Maybe faster paced ones where players have resources and is able to call down "structures" that sets up and automates themselves to produce structures and basically have AI control the army...
Think nexus wars but more freeform and closer to melee... You're not forcing the AI to build and do certain things, you're guiding them.
Orbital Wars anyone? You drop base structures to be constructed by your team's scv bots, to produce units. You have to do it within a radius of influence, making it important to expand the "territory".
Hmm but i'm not a good map maker to bother with the triggers to make such a map, I attempted triggers once before and it killed my interests in mapping for SC2. D:
It's way harder and harsher than SC1 mapping... So technically you can say this is more programming and less scripting.
0
In milliseconds, how much delay do you think this has, compared to the older ones? Somewhere like 50ms? Where the past WASD was like 100ms?
0
It'll be cool if you make a "Doom Vs SC2" map, where players control doom characters and their role is to eliminate the SC2 game...
0
Maps like Nexus wars really need this, to lessen unit use and more on tactical use of units. But having a armor change will really skew things around compared to the normal armor system...
Zerglings comes in a pair of 2 and does 5 damage each at a rapid pace... If armor was in % wise, it may or may not be so effective against a marine in some ways:
Marine (5 armor) <<< Zergling (5 damage)
Each hit deals 1 damage.
Marine (5% armor) <<< Zergling (5 damage)
Each hit deals 4.75 damage. Which doesn't really work with such a small damage.
So in that case, why not implement both?
Non-percentage armor is for "Defense"
Percentage armor is for "Protection"
The MMORPG mabinogi uses this, allowing players to choose whether to go for defense or protection.
In SC2's case, if you combine them:
Marine (1 defence / 20% protection) <<< Zergling (5 damage)
You calculate the protection first, then calculate the defence point.
5 - (20%) = 4 points of damage
4 - 1 = 3 points of damage
0
Same, but I would find it easier to adapt into this if you put the tutorial into a separate page with it's own menus, making it easier to backtrack for information.
Maybe include quick guides and tutorials for commonly scripted things people usually want (like ordering a unit to chase another unit or basic things like adding units into cargo). I could not spawn a medivac with 4 marines for example with the GUI seeing how it confuses the fk outta me. Each term listed in there might mean something different when programmer says them, and it never works out either because I used the wrong one, or didn't know how to set it up.
As for the quick guides, it should be more of a supply and demand, have a list with the most popular scripting need and create a guide for each one that covers it at the time.
For example:
Basic - How to create units in a location, over time, and with modified unit variables.
The reason why we need a huge variety of different guides, is because everyone seems to want to do something, but you never really can tell how they want to do it.