Ive been playing this a lot on EU, I've tried a lot of heroes and think I have found "the best of the best" so here are some major balance suggesting to bring them into the realm of balance:
The lightning hero, my favorite. His ball lightning is nuts, completely nuts. Mainly late game. Early game it is a little weak, which is fine. You should reduce the area of it per level, and reduce the duration increase per level, but maybe lower the CD a little to make up for it. As it is now, end game, i stand at the base side of a lane, and shoot light balls down an isle, and nothing can reach me. 50 second duration, and an area to hit any hit, is just a little much. Maybe scale it up to 30 seconds, half the AoE, and reduce the CD by .5 seconds per level.
The other major hero imbalance seems to be tassadar, who is weak early, but his images are stupid strong-tanky late game. The problem with them is their duration, I can have 50 or so avatars out defending, forever. Do you know how long it takes for creeps to kill 50 avatars, when 10 new ones sprout every 10 seconds? "Forever" is the answer. Just reduce the duration per level to +5, rather than +10, and a huge part of the problem would be solved.
Suggestion: Any item at all that increases mana or mana regeneration. there is no point in getting the shield which adds 1000 mana because no one will ever have that much. Potions take too long to restore mana too, maybe larger potions, or instant potions?
Suggestion: A big problem, imo, with liteon was always the creep cost to income ratio. It is all over the goddamn place. This is something you have the power to change. The biggest example creep spawner #2. You can build golems, harpies, and hydras for a 10/1 ratio of income. Meanwhile, much weaker units you are only getting a 20/1 ratio; and stronger units are getting a 20/1 ratio. Any smart player is going to be spamming those stronger units for the added income bonus; which creates a very strong "wall" for the losing team to overcome suddenly. It would be super if you could come up with a ratio where as units get stronger, you get less income per gold spent.
Bug: Every game is recorded as a win in the stats save thingy there. It says i have 20 games and 20 wins, but I am like 18-2 or something.
Future Consideration: In many heor line wars which came after liteon, or even before it; a 4th creep spawner was added, and lumber as an income. 100k gold was converted to lumber automatically, which was used to buy larger creeps from this final shop (as they were very expensive). Should you decide to add stats back to the game, this 4th tier would make for a kickass concept. Right now the game gets stagnant fast if players survive to avatars
Metagame problem: Early game is paced really well; you may die, you fight, you grow slowly, shit happens. Mid game there is always a fast turn, about halfway through the 2nd creep spawner; when shit gets wild fast. By the time I upgrade to the 3rd creep shop, it cannot "unlock" units as fast as I can summon them; and before I know it I have 1 million income, and it is just a "bleh". If you do decide to re-evaluate income ratios, i would highly suggest lowering income to cost ratio later in the game, about halfway through the T2 shop, and all of the T3 shop. It may also be helpful if every 5 min or so, you reduced the cooldown for buying creeps by 1 second or something.
Lag reduction: Late game, when you need to spam literally 500 avatars in a hope of breaking through, there is an issue. Adding 1 unit after him which is stronger but reduced your income would be a great addition (and is something many hero line wars games added over time)
Good job on the updated version of the game, I came back to playing sc2 customs just to try this out (Ive been playing wc3 customs lately).
Thanks for the feedback! I have another patch soon that should address some of those issues.
I do plan to add a 4th creep level, though it will be difficult because I really want you to be dead (in-game!) by then. If you can highlight a version of HLW that uses a 4th creep level, I'd appreciate it! I only see Lition hosted on WC3 these days.
I copied the cost/income values wholesale from WarCraft 3. I'll take a look at the income bonuses when I add the 4th creep tier.
Quote:
Lag reduction: Late game, when you need to spam literally 500 avatars in a hope of breaking through, there is an issue. Adding 1 unit after him which is stronger but reduced your income would be a great addition (and is something many hero line wars games added over time)
http://www.epicwar.com/maps/223707/ there is a link to a map I just played. There used to be a more official version of it; but some euro got ahold of it and screwed with tooltips. You will see a lot of the heroes are the same as liteon, and the units as well. there is 1 more creep per spawn shop, and there is a final level spawn shop with 5 more units in it, you could use for reference. Though, it would really require some form of stat purchasing, or item upgrading, for players to stand a chance against any of them; they get strong fasttttt!
Enjoying the latest update; light orb is much better balanced. Like the new mana potions also; I keep a stack on hand for as long as I can.
I am gonna do some general hero suggestions, as I try to play each hero a few times. My basis for concept will be comparing the heroes to the lightning hero and tassadar for balance. Erazchan helped me with this list.
Also, I do not know the names of heroes or skills, hopefully you get what I am saying.
The Stukov Hero:
Restore Mana: skill is insanely weak early, and overpowered at low levels end game. Starting out, 5% restore, 10 mana cost, on a unit with 200 life, gives you nothing. This skill is worthless until shrine 2; then it suddenly becomes overpowered with only a 2 point investment, you can 1 shot that stray tank they send, and you get almost full mana from it.
Suggestion: Make it 20%-1% per level, however increase the CD initially, and reduce the CD as it levels; so the killing aspect becomes a stronger point of the skill. Late game mana isnt an issue anyways.
Flamestrike: This skill is weak at pretty much all points of the game. The damage is the same as light orb, but the "hits 5 units" part is rough; and the 1 tick per second makes it FAR weaker than light orb. With 6 +ability damage items, against tanks the damage is still moot. Allowing it to hit all units, with a higher mana cost would make it stronger for AoE purposes, and allow it to sync better with the restore mana skill.
Poison Bounce: this skill needs to be able to bounce more, or deal a LOT more damage. As it is, it is the DPS of flamestrike, but hits 1/5th the targets. A completely useless skill IMO. I would suggest increaseing the mana cost, and lowering the cooldown a LOT. Let it be a huge mana sink in exchange for good DPS.
Ultimate Summon: Well balanced in terms of strengths; My only suggestion would be to increase mana regen on it as it is leveled.
Overall: One of the weakest ranged heroes I have played, and his skills while all being "damage over time" based, do not sync up well at all. Early, mid, or late game, there is no point where this hero does noticeably well. Should you decide to change him, I think your best bet would be to base the hero around his mana steal skill; to make him a defined hero.
I will update this post with heroes as I play them, I will give them all a few tries to figure out the best way to play them.
the priest of light:
In my opinion, a very well made hero, and pretty well balanced. Very similar to the light hero, and I have a suggestion which is intended as a minor nerf.
The breath of fire ability, his first ability, should have its cost reduced to 45 or so, not 65. The orb if fire ability should have its mana cost increased from 50 to 75. Fire orb score a lot more kills, thus gaining more levels and income than the breath of fire. It should cost more to express the potential of the 2 skills.
Also, I guess his heal should be messed with; like many skills, it us useless early, and pretty potent late. I think late game it well balanced, considering the long CD. Maybe have it start at 20% and add 3% per level, for a stronger early game. As it is, i level all of my other skills first, then fall back on this once we are spamming 50 avatars at each other.
The big purple hairy monster (No idea what this thing is):
The thing with locust and a lot of regeneration. The regeneration is too much. This hero literally cannot die, at all, or even lose HP. 200 avatars cannot touch his life. He is super weak and cannot damage them, but again, he literally cannot be killed by any means.
The prisoner zealot, assassin I think his name is:
Agreed by all decent players that this is the worst hero in the game.
Mana burn is just silly, why not just give him chain light? also being a melee hero with no other skills that are improved well with +ability damage stats, this skill becomes extremely useless.
Blood rage or w/e attack speed boost. With a max attack speed in the game, this skill also becomes useless fast. This skill will not permanently max attack speed, so i need a 400% attack speed item, in return, making this skill worthless.
Evasion: cool skill, however it is completely worthless until late game; and then it is pretty strong for tanking. However, with no skills that make this hero viable until that point, you will lose or ragequit before you get that far.
Ultimate: not bad, but the requirement between getting damage and attack speed, and getting ability damage, splits this skill in half.
Players who random this hero ragequit because he is damn near unusable.
Suggestions: General concept being a fast auto attack based hero
Make his chain light/mana purn proc from attacking, chance to proc on attack, but cost mana when it does proc (a low amount) and reduce the damage. Alter the movement speed from blood boil or w/e to life regeneration or life steal. This hero is terrible at surviving, god freaking awful. Evasion, like many skills pointed out, is entirely too weak early, and pretty strong late. you should start it at 25% and add 3% per level or something; whatever ratio you feel is fair. The ultimate is fine I guess, but still, that comparison of +ability vs +damage items, makes this skill a shot in its own foot. I would suggest adding a decent % to max attack damage stat.
Overall, i feel the changes will allow a player to make a specific choice between ability damage (focusing on the chain light auto-proc damage) and attack damage (ultimate, blood boil)
A bug relating to the next 2 heroes; Ultimate summons bug out and only have 1 life when you get them to level 6-7 or so. Perhaps using a % damage reduction modifier, rather than a +life modifier, or such a large +life modifier. It sucks when an ultimate skill becomes literally unusable so late in the game.
The Summoner:
trash, sad to say. Her summons are so weak initially, that this is pretty much an auto-attack hero. You need to gear up 2X as fast as any other hero just to not die instantly. then when you finally are fully geared, they still do minimal damage, and only survive for a marginal time, compared to just face tanking myself.
Overall: Summons need to cost less to summon to even be usable for the first half of the game. They really need more damage, especially as they level. Having 2 killable wolves who deal 8000 max DPS to a single target pale in comparison to a single AoE spell, which can deal 8k dps to 40 units at a time. Tassadars images are better than all summons combined on this hero. Higher initial HP, and higher later game damage, and this hero will still be below-par; but that should be expected with any summoner class.
The fire phoenix hero:
Overall a pretty good hero, the bug causing the phoenix to have 1 max life makes the strongest part of this build useless though. It would be amazing if you could make the "living bomb" skill an autocast, I pretty much never use it because I am too busy manually casting fire waves (on auto cast, you will run outta mana instantly). There is a tooltip error on the aura, saying it increases enemy armor by 5%, rather than decreases.
I'm still working my way through it, but I just wanted to say that I've put out a fix for the "summon spawns with 1 life" thing since it seemed pretty gamebreaking. Working on a better fix for this to remove the 100,000 life cap.
Okay I've successfully managed to raise the Infernal, Doomguard and Phoenix's life cap to 500,000.
Kinda concerned over what units with 500k life will do to the game balance though. Those with max level devotion aura would have 1mil effective health. It would take 22 Avatars over a minute to kill one, even if none of the avatars died.
Thinking of reducing the life scaling of summoned units and upping their other stats to compensate.
In comparison to the current game state, 22 avatars over 1 minute translates to 44 avatars over 30 seconds. Realistically, this is not as strong as it sounds. Comparatively, the spirit mage can make 10 avatars, which have a total of 750k HP, and can be recast every 30 seconds or so. Also comparatively, almost any of the "good" AoE spells can kill 30 avatars in 2 casts, which can be achieved in a total of 20 seconds or less. Ive bumped into a few hero combos which destroyed over 400 avatars at once with no deaths. It was impressive.
Really, I think when you have the time and spreadsheet abilities, rescaling the game would be your best bet; income, item costs, creep bounty. the game has 2 real build-checks, tanks, and avatars. To deal with tanks, you buy and max items; there is a 3 minute window here when you stop spamming units to buy items. then you carry through until avatars. Also, the initial creep bounty is insanely imba, compared to initial income. If you can run in and cast an AoE on 10 creeps at the start, you will have triple the income of anyone else. This makes the game insanely rough for new players; or even anyone interested in looking at heroes. Items, you cannot buy into you upgrade to shrine 2, and you fully upgrade when you upgrade to shrine 3. there is a short window here.
It is cool that you are trying to stick to the liteon ideas, however you need to keep in mind that the entire creep system from liteon, was the same creep system used across almost all wc3 tower defense and wars games. I can show you games released in 2005 which have the exact same creep system, with the same bounties and everything; also games released in 2013. In wc3, it was something famillar to all players. In SC2, you have the freedom to alter those values to better balance the game, without the fear that players of other games would be confused by the differences.
It is cool that you are trying to stick to the liteon ideas
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to deviate from the original. Just like I did with the abandoned Desert Strike 1338, I aim to base this map on the original and then evolve it into a (hopefully!) better state!
I'll take the time to review the creep costs soon. Probably tomorrow since I want to add the 4th creep tier at the same time and I don't want to rush that.
I'm pretty torn regarding a delay at the start. On one hand, every second matters and this is kinda punishing. On the other, I never really liked delays in games purely for the sake of having a delay. I'll think on it some more. Maybe there's a more elegant solution to this.
I should have the next patch done soon. I've no real qualms regarding updating this too frequently because I don't really regard it as being finished yet!
GENERAL
- Halved life scaling of summoned units.
- Removed the life cap that was on summoned units.
- Increased starting life of many summoned units.
SUMMONER
- Feral Spirit starting life increased from 150 to 300.
- Feral Spirit energy cost reduced from 60 to 50.
- Feral Spirit cooldown reduced from 30 to 25.
- Feral Spirits will now be summoned infront of the caster instead of at the sides.
- Water Elemental energy cost reduced from 60 to 50.
- Water Elemental cooldown reduced from 25 to 20.
- Water Elemental no longer has a 100,000 cap on life.
- Infernal no longer has a 100,000 cap on life.
WARDEN
- Vengeance no longer has a 100,000 cap on life.
VOIDWALKER
- Fixed an issue with Flamestrike dealing slightly less damage than intended.
- Flamestrike secondary damage duration increased from 3 to 6 seconds.
- Flamestrike target cap increased from 5 to 6.
- Flamestrike target cap now increases by +2 per level.
- Doomguard no longer has a 100,000 cap on life.
DAWN PRIEST
- Lava Surge energy cost reduced from 65 to 45.
- Sun Orb energy cost increased from 50 to 75.
- Nydus Dragon starting life increased from 1200 to 1500.
- Nydus Dragon no longer has a 100,000 cap on life.
- Nydus Dragon turn rate and attack arc increased slightly.
PHOENIX SOUL
- Living Bomb may now be auto-cast.
- Phoenix no longer has a 100,000 cap on life.
- Phoenix now loses 0.5% max life per second instead of 25 life per second.
- Phoenix Fire will now properly scale with ability damage.
- Phoenix rebirth time increased from 10 to 15.
REVENANT
- Soul Harvest tick speed reduced from 3 to 5 seconds.
- Soul Harvest target cap increased from 2 to 3.
- Soul Harvest no longer increases in number of allies healed per level.
- Soul Harvest range increased from 4 to 9.
OTHER
- Increased scan range of summoned units.
- Fixed a bug allowing phoenixes to fly to the enemy area.
- Fixed a bug causing high-end summons to sometimes spawn with 1 life.
- Fixed a few tooltip descriptions.
- Added the proper icon for the phoenix' egg.
Looks at first glance like a nerf to summons, but you'll have a 180k hp water elemental now instead of a 100k one so overall it's a buff.
Oh and it's not in the notes, but I fixed Radiance healing enemy units. Not sure how I didn't notice that before!
I wont be able to check stuff out for a few days; but did have an idea that should help newer players, and give you your "no delay at the start".
I believe that creep bounty is all out of whack. I summon 5 arachnids (costing 25 total) at the start. someone gains 50 for killing them. This makes the initial kills really more important than the initial income ticks. I know I win a game when my ally I am sharing a lane with is 10 seconds late to pick; I start the game with 3X anyone else's income, due to my initial kills. Avatars on the other hand, are insanely strong, and cost 50k, but only offer 1200 in return; during a time when 1 million income is likely.
This causes lower damage AoE skills to be amazing; I can clear out 30 weak units, and make bank; while my melee counterpart is force to single target the remaining stronger units; who hit much harder, and pay much worse in comparison to their spawned count (usually).
The above combines well with the fact that for the first house, the weaker units, which pay exponentially better bounty, also pay exponentially better income. So for the first 5 minutes of gameplay, you have cannon fodder being sent back and forth between AoE casters, who continue to build each others income levels; while the melee hero is trying not to be 1 shot by the 50 centaur archers.
This helps explain why melee is, in most situations, worse off than ranged in the early game.
Part of the solution I propose is to simple alter the gold values awarded per kill. I think something simple like 1/10th their cost to summon would be a great outline. Players who fall behind later in the game because they bought items to defend their allies who maybe kept summoning instead of defending, would have an opportunity to rise up. At the same time, this would greatly reduce the potency of that "I killed the first 10 creeps in my lane, so I win the game".
Also, if you do decide to add stat purchasing, I would highlyyyyy suggest you make each stat point increase in cost; otherwise you will end up with a game that cannot be ended. If stat points constantly increase in cost, it would make them a viable purchase all game; outlining specific times when the purchasing of stats to income ratio would be perfect. Late game however, you wouldn't be able to use your 2 million income to buy 5k stats every tick until you are an unkillable monster, there would always be a falling off point.
Just a heads up, people are really upset about the change to avatar. I personally dont care, still the same concept of farming up 12 million and sending for a sure victory. Also, the hero who can summon phoenix, which is awesome and all, can summon many of them. The trick is to summon another bird while the others are in their shells. My record is 4. 4 is a good record.
Summoner seems to be a "go to" hero now.
Summon shop 3 should cost more, if it is possible. 300k would be about right, 100k is about half an income. 15k for shop 2 would also be much better than 10k; which is 1 income at that point.
It seems as though heroes with an ultimate summon are the best heroes to use now; because their ultimate summons are so tanky and strong. I wouldn't say imbalanced though, just a very easy go-to for almost all players.
If you ever get around to re-balancing the game, items should be looked at. Adding an additional tier; and making the items cost to stat ratio not static. a 15k ring is exactly 4X stronger than a 3k ring. You should include a loss of stats per upgrade, and add a 4th tier. Most people start buying items when they upgrade to summons2, and stop buying items when they upgrade to shop 3. This leaves about a 10 minute window (tops) where item improvements play any role in the game, and it is a very static role.
giving shrine abilities to screw with the other team would be a lot of fun. healing wards ECT, as custom hero line wars had in wc3.
giving shrine abilities to screw with the other team would be a lot of fun.healing wards ECT, as custom hero line wars had in wc3.
Right now I'm aiming to add a 5th ability to all heroes to do something like this.
Dark Ranger for instance will be able to create a silencing zone that prevents any ability usage while enemies are within it, and drains a % of energy per second too. Spirit Mage will be able to create a shield dome that scales with your life that protects units within, that you can either use to help your team survive or to mess with your enemies.
A 4th creep tier and a 4th item tier are things I absolutely want to do, along with more interesting weapons. Avatars are basically my substitute for the 4th creep tier, and will be removed once the tier is complete. The 4th tier will be designed to bring the game to a close and will be appropriately expensive.
I just finished today's patch;
Quote:
BALANCE
- Retribution Aura now has a 2 second cooldown.
- Retribution Aura damage nerf reverted.
OTHER
- Dark Ranger, Sentinel and Ebon Knight now use their WarCraft HD model.
- Fixed a bug somestimes causing heroes to have 0 energy.
- Fixed a bug allowing multiple Phoenixes to be summoned.
CREEPS
- Avatar change reverted.
- Added new abilities to many creeps to make them more unique;
- Spider Crab gains Ability Resistance.
- Broken Vindicator gains Hardened Skin.
- Skeletal Mage gains Ability Resistance.
- Corrupted Treant gains Hardened Skin.
- Furbolg Shaman gains Faerie Fire.
- Sea Giant gains Ability Resistance.
- War Golem gains Hardened Skin.
- Dire Mammoth gains Hardened Skin.
- Mur'gul Bloodgill gains Ability Resistance.
- Boulderfist Ogre gains Hardened Skin.
- Ursol Bear gains Roar.
- Furbolg Champion gains Ability Resistance.
Here's my current design list for the tier 4 creeps;
Quote:
Dire Wolf - Roar
Bandit Lord - Divine Shield - Devotion Aura
Storm Wyrm Lightning Shield - Chain Lightning
Centaur Khan Endurance Aura
Ogre Lord Bloodlust
Faceless Deathbringer Slowing Poison
Broken Seer Curse
Kobold Taskmaster Command Aura - Inner Fire
Legion Overlord Howl of Terror - Vamp Aura
Fel Ravager Mana Burn
Nether Dragon Cripple
I like to see buffs and stuff for creeps; auras make for much better pack sending. That is a situation where income return vs cost should be worse that other units; if i can send a few endurance aura units with my cheap tanks to boost them; tits is happening. Something to consider with units like the brood mother; who is the least likely to be summoned unit in the game. I go to shrine 3 rather than summon brood mothers.
Something unique that custom hero line wars used, that you may consider when you add more creeps. They had a unit called "thief" it was a weakish unit that did not attack; rather it just went straight for the score. If the unit leaked, the team that sent it gained a life. the income to send ratio wasn't very good, and the units were weak for their cost; but a team planning to spam together might get a few through. Every tier had 1, and later tiers they were faster, or had a slow aura, or something to make them more likely to score. Good fun!
I'm still working on the WarCraft framework. I'll add new creeps when the framework is complete. Currently converting heroes to their wc3 format, and polishing them up.
More patches. Another UI screenshot (http://i.imgur.com/3N5Y6sb.jpg) and more of the HD WC3 models added, complete with fancy attacks. I'll spare spamming this thread with patch notes, but I do want to say that a lot of the 2002 warcraft spell effects still look so awesome even 13 years later!
Ive been playing this a lot on EU, I've tried a lot of heroes and think I have found "the best of the best" so here are some major balance suggesting to bring them into the realm of balance:
The lightning hero, my favorite. His ball lightning is nuts, completely nuts. Mainly late game. Early game it is a little weak, which is fine. You should reduce the area of it per level, and reduce the duration increase per level, but maybe lower the CD a little to make up for it. As it is now, end game, i stand at the base side of a lane, and shoot light balls down an isle, and nothing can reach me. 50 second duration, and an area to hit any hit, is just a little much. Maybe scale it up to 30 seconds, half the AoE, and reduce the CD by .5 seconds per level.
The other major hero imbalance seems to be tassadar, who is weak early, but his images are stupid strong-tanky late game. The problem with them is their duration, I can have 50 or so avatars out defending, forever. Do you know how long it takes for creeps to kill 50 avatars, when 10 new ones sprout every 10 seconds? "Forever" is the answer. Just reduce the duration per level to +5, rather than +10, and a huge part of the problem would be solved.
Suggestion: Any item at all that increases mana or mana regeneration. there is no point in getting the shield which adds 1000 mana because no one will ever have that much. Potions take too long to restore mana too, maybe larger potions, or instant potions?
Suggestion: A big problem, imo, with liteon was always the creep cost to income ratio. It is all over the goddamn place. This is something you have the power to change. The biggest example creep spawner #2. You can build golems, harpies, and hydras for a 10/1 ratio of income. Meanwhile, much weaker units you are only getting a 20/1 ratio; and stronger units are getting a 20/1 ratio. Any smart player is going to be spamming those stronger units for the added income bonus; which creates a very strong "wall" for the losing team to overcome suddenly. It would be super if you could come up with a ratio where as units get stronger, you get less income per gold spent.
Bug: Every game is recorded as a win in the stats save thingy there. It says i have 20 games and 20 wins, but I am like 18-2 or something.
Future Consideration: In many heor line wars which came after liteon, or even before it; a 4th creep spawner was added, and lumber as an income. 100k gold was converted to lumber automatically, which was used to buy larger creeps from this final shop (as they were very expensive). Should you decide to add stats back to the game, this 4th tier would make for a kickass concept. Right now the game gets stagnant fast if players survive to avatars
Metagame problem: Early game is paced really well; you may die, you fight, you grow slowly, shit happens. Mid game there is always a fast turn, about halfway through the 2nd creep spawner; when shit gets wild fast. By the time I upgrade to the 3rd creep shop, it cannot "unlock" units as fast as I can summon them; and before I know it I have 1 million income, and it is just a "bleh". If you do decide to re-evaluate income ratios, i would highly suggest lowering income to cost ratio later in the game, about halfway through the T2 shop, and all of the T3 shop. It may also be helpful if every 5 min or so, you reduced the cooldown for buying creeps by 1 second or something.
Lag reduction: Late game, when you need to spam literally 500 avatars in a hope of breaking through, there is an issue. Adding 1 unit after him which is stronger but reduced your income would be a great addition (and is something many hero line wars games added over time)
Good job on the updated version of the game, I came back to playing sc2 customs just to try this out (Ive been playing wc3 customs lately).
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Thanks for the feedback! I have another patch soon that should address some of those issues.
I do plan to add a 4th creep level, though it will be difficult because I really want you to be dead (in-game!) by then. If you can highlight a version of HLW that uses a 4th creep level, I'd appreciate it! I only see Lition hosted on WC3 these days.
I copied the cost/income values wholesale from WarCraft 3. I'll take a look at the income bonuses when I add the 4th creep tier.
I like this a lot.
http://www.epicwar.com/maps/223707/ there is a link to a map I just played. There used to be a more official version of it; but some euro got ahold of it and screwed with tooltips. You will see a lot of the heroes are the same as liteon, and the units as well. there is 1 more creep per spawn shop, and there is a final level spawn shop with 5 more units in it, you could use for reference. Though, it would really require some form of stat purchasing, or item upgrading, for players to stand a chance against any of them; they get strong fasttttt!
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Enjoying the latest update; light orb is much better balanced. Like the new mana potions also; I keep a stack on hand for as long as I can.
I am gonna do some general hero suggestions, as I try to play each hero a few times. My basis for concept will be comparing the heroes to the lightning hero and tassadar for balance. Erazchan helped me with this list.
Also, I do not know the names of heroes or skills, hopefully you get what I am saying.
The Stukov Hero:
Restore Mana: skill is insanely weak early, and overpowered at low levels end game. Starting out, 5% restore, 10 mana cost, on a unit with 200 life, gives you nothing. This skill is worthless until shrine 2; then it suddenly becomes overpowered with only a 2 point investment, you can 1 shot that stray tank they send, and you get almost full mana from it.
Suggestion: Make it 20%-1% per level, however increase the CD initially, and reduce the CD as it levels; so the killing aspect becomes a stronger point of the skill. Late game mana isnt an issue anyways.
Flamestrike: This skill is weak at pretty much all points of the game. The damage is the same as light orb, but the "hits 5 units" part is rough; and the 1 tick per second makes it FAR weaker than light orb. With 6 +ability damage items, against tanks the damage is still moot. Allowing it to hit all units, with a higher mana cost would make it stronger for AoE purposes, and allow it to sync better with the restore mana skill.
Poison Bounce: this skill needs to be able to bounce more, or deal a LOT more damage. As it is, it is the DPS of flamestrike, but hits 1/5th the targets. A completely useless skill IMO. I would suggest increaseing the mana cost, and lowering the cooldown a LOT. Let it be a huge mana sink in exchange for good DPS.
Ultimate Summon: Well balanced in terms of strengths; My only suggestion would be to increase mana regen on it as it is leveled.
Overall: One of the weakest ranged heroes I have played, and his skills while all being "damage over time" based, do not sync up well at all. Early, mid, or late game, there is no point where this hero does noticeably well. Should you decide to change him, I think your best bet would be to base the hero around his mana steal skill; to make him a defined hero.
I will update this post with heroes as I play them, I will give them all a few tries to figure out the best way to play them.
the priest of light:
In my opinion, a very well made hero, and pretty well balanced. Very similar to the light hero, and I have a suggestion which is intended as a minor nerf.
The breath of fire ability, his first ability, should have its cost reduced to 45 or so, not 65. The orb if fire ability should have its mana cost increased from 50 to 75. Fire orb score a lot more kills, thus gaining more levels and income than the breath of fire. It should cost more to express the potential of the 2 skills.
Also, I guess his heal should be messed with; like many skills, it us useless early, and pretty potent late. I think late game it well balanced, considering the long CD. Maybe have it start at 20% and add 3% per level, for a stronger early game. As it is, i level all of my other skills first, then fall back on this once we are spamming 50 avatars at each other.
The big purple hairy monster (No idea what this thing is):
The thing with locust and a lot of regeneration. The regeneration is too much. This hero literally cannot die, at all, or even lose HP. 200 avatars cannot touch his life. He is super weak and cannot damage them, but again, he literally cannot be killed by any means.
The prisoner zealot, assassin I think his name is:
Agreed by all decent players that this is the worst hero in the game.
Mana burn is just silly, why not just give him chain light? also being a melee hero with no other skills that are improved well with +ability damage stats, this skill becomes extremely useless.
Blood rage or w/e attack speed boost. With a max attack speed in the game, this skill also becomes useless fast. This skill will not permanently max attack speed, so i need a 400% attack speed item, in return, making this skill worthless.
Evasion: cool skill, however it is completely worthless until late game; and then it is pretty strong for tanking. However, with no skills that make this hero viable until that point, you will lose or ragequit before you get that far.
Ultimate: not bad, but the requirement between getting damage and attack speed, and getting ability damage, splits this skill in half.
Players who random this hero ragequit because he is damn near unusable.
Suggestions: General concept being a fast auto attack based hero
Make his chain light/mana purn proc from attacking, chance to proc on attack, but cost mana when it does proc (a low amount) and reduce the damage. Alter the movement speed from blood boil or w/e to life regeneration or life steal. This hero is terrible at surviving, god freaking awful. Evasion, like many skills pointed out, is entirely too weak early, and pretty strong late. you should start it at 25% and add 3% per level or something; whatever ratio you feel is fair. The ultimate is fine I guess, but still, that comparison of +ability vs +damage items, makes this skill a shot in its own foot. I would suggest adding a decent % to max attack damage stat.
Overall, i feel the changes will allow a player to make a specific choice between ability damage (focusing on the chain light auto-proc damage) and attack damage (ultimate, blood boil)
A bug relating to the next 2 heroes; Ultimate summons bug out and only have 1 life when you get them to level 6-7 or so. Perhaps using a % damage reduction modifier, rather than a +life modifier, or such a large +life modifier. It sucks when an ultimate skill becomes literally unusable so late in the game.
The Summoner:
trash, sad to say. Her summons are so weak initially, that this is pretty much an auto-attack hero. You need to gear up 2X as fast as any other hero just to not die instantly. then when you finally are fully geared, they still do minimal damage, and only survive for a marginal time, compared to just face tanking myself.
Overall: Summons need to cost less to summon to even be usable for the first half of the game. They really need more damage, especially as they level. Having 2 killable wolves who deal 8000 max DPS to a single target pale in comparison to a single AoE spell, which can deal 8k dps to 40 units at a time. Tassadars images are better than all summons combined on this hero. Higher initial HP, and higher later game damage, and this hero will still be below-par; but that should be expected with any summoner class.
The fire phoenix hero:
Overall a pretty good hero, the bug causing the phoenix to have 1 max life makes the strongest part of this build useless though. It would be amazing if you could make the "living bomb" skill an autocast, I pretty much never use it because I am too busy manually casting fire waves (on auto cast, you will run outta mana instantly). There is a tooltip error on the aura, saying it increases enemy armor by 5%, rather than decreases.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
@GlornII: Go
Heya,
Thanks for the feedback!
I'm still working my way through it, but I just wanted to say that I've put out a fix for the "summon spawns with 1 life" thing since it seemed pretty gamebreaking. Working on a better fix for this to remove the 100,000 life cap.
Okay I've successfully managed to raise the Infernal, Doomguard and Phoenix's life cap to 500,000.
Kinda concerned over what units with 500k life will do to the game balance though. Those with max level devotion aura would have 1mil effective health. It would take 22 Avatars over a minute to kill one, even if none of the avatars died.
Thinking of reducing the life scaling of summoned units and upping their other stats to compensate.
In comparison to the current game state, 22 avatars over 1 minute translates to 44 avatars over 30 seconds. Realistically, this is not as strong as it sounds. Comparatively, the spirit mage can make 10 avatars, which have a total of 750k HP, and can be recast every 30 seconds or so. Also comparatively, almost any of the "good" AoE spells can kill 30 avatars in 2 casts, which can be achieved in a total of 20 seconds or less. Ive bumped into a few hero combos which destroyed over 400 avatars at once with no deaths. It was impressive.
Really, I think when you have the time and spreadsheet abilities, rescaling the game would be your best bet; income, item costs, creep bounty. the game has 2 real build-checks, tanks, and avatars. To deal with tanks, you buy and max items; there is a 3 minute window here when you stop spamming units to buy items. then you carry through until avatars. Also, the initial creep bounty is insanely imba, compared to initial income. If you can run in and cast an AoE on 10 creeps at the start, you will have triple the income of anyone else. This makes the game insanely rough for new players; or even anyone interested in looking at heroes. Items, you cannot buy into you upgrade to shrine 2, and you fully upgrade when you upgrade to shrine 3. there is a short window here.
It is cool that you are trying to stick to the liteon ideas, however you need to keep in mind that the entire creep system from liteon, was the same creep system used across almost all wc3 tower defense and wars games. I can show you games released in 2005 which have the exact same creep system, with the same bounties and everything; also games released in 2013. In wc3, it was something famillar to all players. In SC2, you have the freedom to alter those values to better balance the game, without the fear that players of other games would be confused by the differences.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to deviate from the original. Just like I did with the abandoned Desert Strike 1338, I aim to base this map on the original and then evolve it into a (hopefully!) better state!
I'll take the time to review the creep costs soon. Probably tomorrow since I want to add the 4th creep tier at the same time and I don't want to rush that.
I'm pretty torn regarding a delay at the start. On one hand, every second matters and this is kinda punishing. On the other, I never really liked delays in games purely for the sake of having a delay. I'll think on it some more. Maybe there's a more elegant solution to this.
I should have the next patch done soon. I've no real qualms regarding updating this too frequently because I don't really regard it as being finished yet!
Version 0.10
Looks at first glance like a nerf to summons, but you'll have a 180k hp water elemental now instead of a 100k one so overall it's a buff.
Oh and it's not in the notes, but I fixed Radiance healing enemy units. Not sure how I didn't notice that before!
I wont be able to check stuff out for a few days; but did have an idea that should help newer players, and give you your "no delay at the start".
I believe that creep bounty is all out of whack. I summon 5 arachnids (costing 25 total) at the start. someone gains 50 for killing them. This makes the initial kills really more important than the initial income ticks. I know I win a game when my ally I am sharing a lane with is 10 seconds late to pick; I start the game with 3X anyone else's income, due to my initial kills. Avatars on the other hand, are insanely strong, and cost 50k, but only offer 1200 in return; during a time when 1 million income is likely.
This causes lower damage AoE skills to be amazing; I can clear out 30 weak units, and make bank; while my melee counterpart is force to single target the remaining stronger units; who hit much harder, and pay much worse in comparison to their spawned count (usually).
The above combines well with the fact that for the first house, the weaker units, which pay exponentially better bounty, also pay exponentially better income. So for the first 5 minutes of gameplay, you have cannon fodder being sent back and forth between AoE casters, who continue to build each others income levels; while the melee hero is trying not to be 1 shot by the 50 centaur archers.
This helps explain why melee is, in most situations, worse off than ranged in the early game.
Part of the solution I propose is to simple alter the gold values awarded per kill. I think something simple like 1/10th their cost to summon would be a great outline. Players who fall behind later in the game because they bought items to defend their allies who maybe kept summoning instead of defending, would have an opportunity to rise up. At the same time, this would greatly reduce the potency of that "I killed the first 10 creeps in my lane, so I win the game".
Also, if you do decide to add stat purchasing, I would highlyyyyy suggest you make each stat point increase in cost; otherwise you will end up with a game that cannot be ended. If stat points constantly increase in cost, it would make them a viable purchase all game; outlining specific times when the purchasing of stats to income ratio would be perfect. Late game however, you wouldn't be able to use your 2 million income to buy 5k stats every tick until you are an unkillable monster, there would always be a falling off point.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Updated summoned unit models with the WarCraft 3 HD versions.
Some look seriously badass. An infernal slamming his fist into a roach and the resulting physics sending the roach flying looks sooooooooo good!
Updating the heroes to their WC3HD versions is going to take longer than I anticipated as there's a few issues with the models.
Updated several spell effects. I honestly didn't expect auras to look as good as they do given the age of the model, but they fit in so perfectly.
The best WarCraft hero ever, now in HD!
I MISSED YOU SYLVANAS. BACK AT LAST!
@TyaArcade: Go
it says "the video is private"
Whoops. Fixed!
Just a heads up, people are really upset about the change to avatar. I personally dont care, still the same concept of farming up 12 million and sending for a sure victory. Also, the hero who can summon phoenix, which is awesome and all, can summon many of them. The trick is to summon another bird while the others are in their shells. My record is 4. 4 is a good record.
Summoner seems to be a "go to" hero now.
Summon shop 3 should cost more, if it is possible. 300k would be about right, 100k is about half an income. 15k for shop 2 would also be much better than 10k; which is 1 income at that point.
It seems as though heroes with an ultimate summon are the best heroes to use now; because their ultimate summons are so tanky and strong. I wouldn't say imbalanced though, just a very easy go-to for almost all players.
If you ever get around to re-balancing the game, items should be looked at. Adding an additional tier; and making the items cost to stat ratio not static. a 15k ring is exactly 4X stronger than a 3k ring. You should include a loss of stats per upgrade, and add a 4th tier. Most people start buying items when they upgrade to summons2, and stop buying items when they upgrade to shop 3. This leaves about a 10 minute window (tops) where item improvements play any role in the game, and it is a very static role.
giving shrine abilities to screw with the other team would be a lot of fun. healing wards ECT, as custom hero line wars had in wc3.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Thanks for the feedback!
Right now I'm aiming to add a 5th ability to all heroes to do something like this.
Dark Ranger for instance will be able to create a silencing zone that prevents any ability usage while enemies are within it, and drains a % of energy per second too. Spirit Mage will be able to create a shield dome that scales with your life that protects units within, that you can either use to help your team survive or to mess with your enemies.
A 4th creep tier and a 4th item tier are things I absolutely want to do, along with more interesting weapons. Avatars are basically my substitute for the 4th creep tier, and will be removed once the tier is complete. The 4th tier will be designed to bring the game to a close and will be appropriately expensive.
I just finished today's patch;
Here's my current design list for the tier 4 creeps;
I like to see buffs and stuff for creeps; auras make for much better pack sending. That is a situation where income return vs cost should be worse that other units; if i can send a few endurance aura units with my cheap tanks to boost them; tits is happening. Something to consider with units like the brood mother; who is the least likely to be summoned unit in the game. I go to shrine 3 rather than summon brood mothers.
Something unique that custom hero line wars used, that you may consider when you add more creeps. They had a unit called "thief" it was a weakish unit that did not attack; rather it just went straight for the score. If the unit leaked, the team that sent it gained a life. the income to send ratio wasn't very good, and the units were weak for their cost; but a team planning to spam together might get a few through. Every tier had 1, and later tiers they were faster, or had a slow aura, or something to make them more likely to score. Good fun!
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
I'm still working on the WarCraft framework. I'll add new creeps when the framework is complete. Currently converting heroes to their wc3 format, and polishing them up.
UI progress. Still some things to iron out.
More patches. Another UI screenshot (http://i.imgur.com/3N5Y6sb.jpg) and more of the HD WC3 models added, complete with fancy attacks. I'll spare spamming this thread with patch notes, but I do want to say that a lot of the 2002 warcraft spell effects still look so awesome even 13 years later!
UI is complete and uploaded. The art can be toggled on and off with the F7 key at any time. It's my first UI. Feedback appreciated!