Just as an example, these are some of the mech abilities;
Tier 1
Harpoon. Drags a target unit to the mech.
Snare. Snares targets in a target area by 30% for 10 seconds. 15 sec cd.
Tier 2
Power Disruption. Aura. Snares all targets in large radius by 25% for 15 seconds. 30 sec cd.
Decay. Deals 8% health to enemy units in targeted aoe radius.
Tier 3
Thumper. Deals 10% health to nearby units per second. Lasts 8 seconds. Snares targets by 50%.
Repulsion Field. Stuns + Knocks back all nearby enemies.
Tier 4
Overload. 3 second cast. Deals 50% of a unit's health as damage. Stuns for 2 sec.
Shock Vortex. Creates a vortex on the ground. Will use Repulsion Field on any unit if they get too close.
Tier 5
Energy Feedback. Creates a consuming vortex in the target area. Deals 15% of target's health as damage per second. Units damaged by the vortex will cause the vortex to grow in size and effect.
Seeker Barrage. Launches a seeker missile every 0.2 second for 2 seconds against a random unit.
I need a few more for the tank (defensive style) and the fighter (movement style).
For the fighter, maybe add something kamikaze-style? Or at least all weapons (including drones and turrets) target a specific unit for 5-10 seconds and the fighter gets a speed bonus and is forced to move towards the target.
For the tank... Something that slows down time in a certain area?
For the tank... Something that slows down time in a certain area?
I have this awesome spell that slows down time in a bubble the closer you get to a unit, and another spell that flips projectiles back and launches them back at their owner. Those are reserved for the Protoss tank though!
Alright your take on turrets sounds really good i did not know that so i could only guess obviously.^^
If you really want to have 5 tiers for abilities and 3 choices per tier you will run out of ideas that dont feel generic for new classes (protoss) really soon (gotta save some stuff for later throwing too much at the player is not always good for gameplay). I would suggest either reduce the choice per tier to 2 or reduce tiers to 4.
So I went with the 5 tiers 2 choices approach, I tried to keep the abilities terran based (no black holes/gravity stuff thats for protoss xD) with enough choices and synergies to feel right. Numbers are just guesses so don't blame me on that.I used some of your abilities and threw some passives into the mix course nobody uses 5 active abilities consistently anyways.
Here goes:
Tank
Tier 1:
Harpoon(drags enemys towards you)
Containment Field(60% dmg reduction, tank cannot move)
Tier 2:
Grinder(enemies near tank take 10% of their life as damage per second for 8 seconds, slows them by 20%, uses the Terratron Saw Missile model stuck to the tank(awesome xD))
Deploy shield
Tier 3:
Field Repair(tank gains hefty live regen when under 60% health, uses Fire Supression Bots as animation from campaign)
Heavy Plating(passive, -5% speed -15% dmg taken(could also work like cloak where you activate it and it drains energy per sec))
Tier 4:
Draw fire(forces all enemies to attack the tank, good for rescuing allys)
Smoke Bomb
Tier 5:
Siege Bombardment(Tank deploys and dispenses a major asswhooping in targetarea, could be a one-time-spell or something similar to normal siege mode, dunno if models still upgrade but even the A.R.E.S. has a cool animation for that where he retracts his guns and gets some heavy missile launchers on his back)
Defense Matrix(targetable, 40% of tanks hp as shields)
Mech
Tier 1:
Blackout Missile(Drains 200 Shields/100 Energy, Stuns target for 0.5 seconds every 1.5 seconds lasts 6 seconds)
Snare(snares area by 75%)
Tier 2:
Hunter Seeker
A.W.I.S.(Automatized Weapon Install Systems, decreases buildingcost of turrets/weapons (and corresponding upgrades?) by 10%)(could do something similar for a carrier type with factories, since i don't know if you can build armor upgrades in your hangar i did not include something similar for the tank)
Tier 3:
Electric Induction(applies dot for 5 seconds on target, dot refreshes whenever target moves and stacks up to 5 times, target has to stop moving for 5 seconds to dispell dot(+ hunter seeker = awesome xD))
Overload( 3 second cast, deals 40% dmg, stuns for 2 seconds)
Tier 4:
Overdrive(+20% weapon-/movementspeed, 20% selfdamage over duration)
Target Disruptor(slows enemys weaponspeed by 40%)
Tier 5:
Seeker Barrage
Damage Amplifier(4 sec Debuff, when debuff expires deals the damage target received during those 4 seconds as aoe around target and to target itself)
Also got lots of ideas for a scout class:
(scout should be fastest unit or maybe as fast as fighter, bit less hp than mech)
Tier 1:
T.G.N.(temporal gravity nullifier, basically a jump ability, scout can cross unpathable terrain with it)
Engine Upgrade(20% faster Movement)
Tier 2:
Spider Mines(they should also jump at airunits, you can deploy like 10 or so at once)
Weapon nullifier(stops targets weaponsystems for 5 seconds)
Tier 3:
Bugging Device(lasts for 2 minutes on target, you get to see everything around target)
Scan(scans area,reveals cloaked stuff, scanned enemys take 10% more damage)
Tier 4:
Electromagnetic Mine(triggered mines create a huge area where enemys are slowed by 90% and their energy gets drained pretty fast)
Camouflage(scout only attacks with 20% weapon speed but enemys more than 4 units away from the scout cannot attack him)
Tier 5:
K.I.S.S.(kickass intelligent spider swarm(xD), creates 6 hunter mines that swarm around the scout(like the old drones) and suicide into enemies, are as fast(or faster) as the scout)
Ion Cannon Uplink(immobilizes the scout, long castrange, creates a slow moving Ion Beam at target location that can be moved around by the player, deals hefty area damage over time)
So thats it for now, maybe some ideas for the fighter will come to me who knows. I hope you can use some of this for catalyst i certainly had fun imagining it xD.
I also added a map where i jerked around a bit synchronizing portraits with the valkyrie sound from sc1 and stumbled upon some really cool models that where basically never used anywhere. There is even one for a Doom-bot or a little tank drone.Maybe you wanna use some of these dunno.
If you really want to have 5 tiers for abilities and 3 choices per tier you will run out of ideas that dont feel generic for new classes (protoss) really soon (gotta save some stuff for later throwing too much at the player is not always good for gameplay). I would suggest either reduce the choice per tier to 2 or reduce tiers to 4.
just for the record.. this is a (allready successfully used) strategie to reduce/negate imbalances. just give the player so many possibilitys that its almost impossible to effectivly compare everything. take dota for example.. there are 50 heroes? and 5 player per team.. that makes what.. 10k possibilities? (ninja edit: wrong formula.. should be a much higher number)
have fun.
this however is a shitload of work ;-)
Right i agree but you got to see the bigger picture.
In dota there are many many abilities like deals x damage, stuns, aoe damage,... but in catalyst the damageabilities are already covered with the stuff you build in the weapons bay, summoning abilities are already covered because of the factories you can build and who knows maybe you can also build armorupgrades, energyregen-generators and whatnot in there.
Soo if you do not want a bunch of generic abilities for different vehicles that do the same thing and are only called differently you have to cut some of them.
Also abilities are really not that much of a customization tool in catalyst because of all the stuff you can do with the hangar.
its just a different approach in these two maps i guess
ofc! you are totaly right. this was just a sidenote of mine regarding balance. catalyst has much potential for customization (given that every piece of equipment is on a similar usefull level). now the chassis have to be different. Eiviyn is currently implementing this.
i fully understand that nothing is final and that testing is of much need. however if i read that a single unit can snare, hook and stun for 3 seconds while dealing massive amounts of damage (in old catalyst you are dead in 4 seconds.. no matter how many hp you have) it gives me the shivers ;)
and ofc you are right again, dota has a different gameplay and needs a different approach. but still it can be taken as a good reference for many things. for example the hero setup in dota mostly evolves around stunner. they are most of they time so much more usefull than anything else.. just for the fact that you completely take nearly everything from your opponent (movement, damage(exceptions..)). now imagine how it would be in catalyst to be disabled for 2 seconds.. i am no fan.
I'm making some changes around that. Firstly, the stuns are all avoidable.
Overcharge is a 2 second stun. What happens is your vehicle stops moving and starts casting the ability. A glow effect appears around your vehicle to show what it's doing. When the ability is complete, a shockwave appears around your unit and anything still close will take damage and be stunned. The radius and cast time are subject to change, but the aim is that if it is used with a snare and harpoon, it will be barely escapeable. The goal here is that you use your abilities to counter your opponent's abilities. For example, in this situation, the scout can Micro Warp Drive out. The tank can use damage reducing cooldowns. The mech can simply get his Overcharge off first or similar ability.
Stuns will be very sparse for this reason. The only other stuns I intended to add was on Repulsion Field and Battering Ram, both basically melee range abilities.
Health will also change. I still want players to die somewhat quickly (10 seconds of taking a beating should put a player out of commission), but only if they either make a mistake, are in a bad spot or are out of cooldowns. To better control this, I'll be getting rid of shield and armour modules completely. I'll make up for this over time by adding more interesting weapons, drones, troop drops and deployable equipment and a few pieces of utility equipment. They may make a return in the future, but for now I'm not going to spread myself too thin.
The way I see things is that your vehicle is basically a video game boss. It has a bunch of skills (your weapons) that can be avoided. It has a bunch of abilities that make avoiding them more difficult, and a bunch of abilities that make avoiding other vehicles' weaponry easier or simply take less damage. In addition to your weaponry, you have drones and troop drops (boss adds) should you choose to take that path. These adds deal a lot of damage and need to be dealt with quickly. On the flipside, the more factories you have, the faster you produce those adds (and allows you to have more), but the less weaponry you will have.
I hope that makes sense. Of course everything is subject to change. I'm nearing a beta version. The only real thing I need to do is finish up the vehicle abilities and add some basic upgrades for your equipment.
As for running out of ideas for Protoss abilities, I've deliberately tried to keep all the Terran abilities very... Terran. Protoss vehicle abilities will be much more magical/time altering in nature and I feel I've given myself plenty of room to expand on this. I'm not even thinking about this yet, however. As I said I've learnt my lesson with taking on more than I can handle before what I already have is polished, and I won't repeat that mistake.
Regarding the terrany feeling of abilities I just want to illustrate what I thought when reading the abilities for the mech you posted earlier.
Now bear in mind these are just my own opinions and maybe you already changed it but thats why I said what I said in my post.
Energy Feedback. Creates a consuming vortex in the target area. Deals 15% of target's health as damage per second. Units damaged by the vortex will cause the vortex to grow in size and effect.
Seeker Barrage. Launches a seeker missile every 0.2 second for 2 seconds against a random unit.
wow slow down the terran basically rip desecration from the lich king.. ok..but why the hell would the terran guys roll around and throw the original before-beta-mothership-black-hole at their enemies?
seeker missiles en masse? awesome gimme
So to sum it up only 4 abilities out of the 10(Harpoon, Slow, Overload, Seeker Barrage) gave me the vibe to fit a terran goliath/thor.
The rest seemed somewhat random. For example it seems you wanted to give the mech some aoe capabilities with Energy Feedback and decay, why not use hunter seeker for aoe instead? Also according to what you said on the last page you already have many weapons that cover aoe so why would you even create so many aoe abilities? See thats why i said better cut some abilities that just end up interfering with the buildable thingies and really add nothing new to the game.
Imo what will end up to differentiate the vehicletypes will be the abilities because everyone can build the same stuff in the hangar. Thats why they should be iconic and not dip into each other.
Examples:
OMG there is a fucking laser beam coming from the sky better avoid this and search for the scout who channels it!
/or/
holy crap this area is under heavy siege-tank fire better search for the deployed tank and take him out while he can't move!)
thats just me though. :P
ps:whew i have quite the tendency to type long posts
This map looks like a potentially great game based on your video, but I haven't had a chance to see multiplayer in action yet. I know that the map is published on the EU servers, but is it published on US? If not, is there any chance it will be?
I'm currently in the process of redesigning the whole map from the ground up and it's not even in a playable state right now. But yeah, I plan to get a method of uploading to the US before I release this time.
Well, that's good news. I thought your original was nicely polished. But, I guess a brand new one from the ground up would do nicely. And, since you've already made it once, it may be much easier to do it again in a new way. Hope to see a video preview soon! :D
Edit: Something I noticed b4 was that the game suddenly reminded me of something, but I couldn't put my finger on it. This game reminds me of CTF games I've seen b4. Exact type of thing except it yous definitely looks better lol. :D
Well, that's good news. I thought your original was nicely polished. But, I guess a brand new one from the ground up would do nicely. And, since you've already made it once, it may be much easier to do it again in a new way. Hope to see a video preview soon! :D
Edit: Something I noticed b4 was that the game suddenly reminded me of something, but I couldn't put my finger on it. This game reminds me of CTF games I've seen b4. Exact type of thing except it yous definitely looks better lol. :D
I also added a map where i jerked around a bit synchronizing portraits with the valkyrie sound from sc1 and stumbled upon some really cool models that where basically never used anywhere. There is even one for a Doom-bot or a little tank drone.Maybe you wanna use some of these dunno.
those look custom
EDIT: most of those are for lost viking just found out >.> but yea use doombot its epic and give it a voice
Well, the only things used for lost viking are the 2 flying thingies, the nomad was ingame but got replaced by the raven before beta cause some idiots complained that he looks bad, but i dunno i think he's awesome xD
and the tankdrone, battlecruiser,laser drill tank and doombot were never used for anything.
so they are basically custom models that don't eat the 10mb maplimit. ^^
I just threw that out here because i didn't like it that you used the siegetankmodel for the mercs you could buy at the factory in your betarelease, cause you know these were already used by the tank.So i figured maybe a few more models to choose from couln't hurt you Eiviyn.
Just as an example, these are some of the mech abilities;
Tier 1
Harpoon. Drags a target unit to the mech.
Snare. Snares targets in a target area by 30% for 10 seconds. 15 sec cd.
Tier 2
Power Disruption. Aura. Snares all targets in large radius by 25% for 15 seconds. 30 sec cd.
Decay. Deals 8% health to enemy units in targeted aoe radius.
Tier 3
Thumper. Deals 10% health to nearby units per second. Lasts 8 seconds. Snares targets by 50%.
Repulsion Field. Stuns + Knocks back all nearby enemies.
Tier 4
Overload. 3 second cast. Deals 50% of a unit's health as damage. Stuns for 2 sec.
Shock Vortex. Creates a vortex on the ground. Will use Repulsion Field on any unit if they get too close.
Tier 5
Energy Feedback. Creates a consuming vortex in the target area. Deals 15% of target's health as damage per second. Units damaged by the vortex will cause the vortex to grow in size and effect.
Seeker Barrage. Launches a seeker missile every 0.2 second for 2 seconds against a random unit.
I need a few more for the tank (defensive style) and the fighter (movement style).
For the fighter, maybe add something kamikaze-style? Or at least all weapons (including drones and turrets) target a specific unit for 5-10 seconds and the fighter gets a speed bonus and is forced to move towards the target.
For the tank... Something that slows down time in a certain area?
I have this awesome spell that slows down time in a bubble the closer you get to a unit, and another spell that flips projectiles back and launches them back at their owner. Those are reserved for the Protoss tank though!
@Eiviyn: Go
The fighter needs to be able to do a bombing run :-)
Alright your take on turrets sounds really good i did not know that so i could only guess obviously.^^
If you really want to have 5 tiers for abilities and 3 choices per tier you will run out of ideas that dont feel generic for new classes (protoss) really soon (gotta save some stuff for later throwing too much at the player is not always good for gameplay). I would suggest either reduce the choice per tier to 2 or reduce tiers to 4.
So I went with the 5 tiers 2 choices approach, I tried to keep the abilities terran based (no black holes/gravity stuff thats for protoss xD) with enough choices and synergies to feel right. Numbers are just guesses so don't blame me on that.I used some of your abilities and threw some passives into the mix course nobody uses 5 active abilities consistently anyways. Here goes:
Tank
Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Tier 4:
Tier 5:
Mech
Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Tier 4:
Tier 5:
Also got lots of ideas for a scout class: (scout should be fastest unit or maybe as fast as fighter, bit less hp than mech)
Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Tier 4:
Tier 5:
So thats it for now, maybe some ideas for the fighter will come to me who knows. I hope you can use some of this for catalyst i certainly had fun imagining it xD.
I also added a map where i jerked around a bit synchronizing portraits with the valkyrie sound from sc1 and stumbled upon some really cool models that where basically never used anywhere. There is even one for a Doom-bot or a little tank drone.Maybe you wanna use some of these dunno.
just for the record.. this is a (allready successfully used) strategie to reduce/negate imbalances. just give the player so many possibilitys that its almost impossible to effectivly compare everything. take dota for example.. there are 50 heroes? and 5 player per team.. that makes what.. 10k possibilities? (ninja edit: wrong formula.. should be a much higher number) have fun. this however is a shitload of work ;-)
@Ryaneko: Go
Right i agree but you got to see the bigger picture. In dota there are many many abilities like deals x damage, stuns, aoe damage,... but in catalyst the damageabilities are already covered with the stuff you build in the weapons bay, summoning abilities are already covered because of the factories you can build and who knows maybe you can also build armorupgrades, energyregen-generators and whatnot in there.
Soo if you do not want a bunch of generic abilities for different vehicles that do the same thing and are only called differently you have to cut some of them. Also abilities are really not that much of a customization tool in catalyst because of all the stuff you can do with the hangar.
its just a different approach in these two maps i guess
ofc! you are totaly right. this was just a sidenote of mine regarding balance. catalyst has much potential for customization (given that every piece of equipment is on a similar usefull level). now the chassis have to be different. Eiviyn is currently implementing this.
i fully understand that nothing is final and that testing is of much need. however if i read that a single unit can snare, hook and stun for 3 seconds while dealing massive amounts of damage (in old catalyst you are dead in 4 seconds.. no matter how many hp you have) it gives me the shivers ;)
and ofc you are right again, dota has a different gameplay and needs a different approach. but still it can be taken as a good reference for many things. for example the hero setup in dota mostly evolves around stunner. they are most of they time so much more usefull than anything else.. just for the fact that you completely take nearly everything from your opponent (movement, damage(exceptions..)). now imagine how it would be in catalyst to be disabled for 2 seconds.. i am no fan.
I'm making some changes around that. Firstly, the stuns are all avoidable.
Overcharge is a 2 second stun. What happens is your vehicle stops moving and starts casting the ability. A glow effect appears around your vehicle to show what it's doing. When the ability is complete, a shockwave appears around your unit and anything still close will take damage and be stunned. The radius and cast time are subject to change, but the aim is that if it is used with a snare and harpoon, it will be barely escapeable. The goal here is that you use your abilities to counter your opponent's abilities. For example, in this situation, the scout can Micro Warp Drive out. The tank can use damage reducing cooldowns. The mech can simply get his Overcharge off first or similar ability.
Stuns will be very sparse for this reason. The only other stuns I intended to add was on Repulsion Field and Battering Ram, both basically melee range abilities.
Health will also change. I still want players to die somewhat quickly (10 seconds of taking a beating should put a player out of commission), but only if they either make a mistake, are in a bad spot or are out of cooldowns. To better control this, I'll be getting rid of shield and armour modules completely. I'll make up for this over time by adding more interesting weapons, drones, troop drops and deployable equipment and a few pieces of utility equipment. They may make a return in the future, but for now I'm not going to spread myself too thin.
The way I see things is that your vehicle is basically a video game boss. It has a bunch of skills (your weapons) that can be avoided. It has a bunch of abilities that make avoiding them more difficult, and a bunch of abilities that make avoiding other vehicles' weaponry easier or simply take less damage. In addition to your weaponry, you have drones and troop drops (boss adds) should you choose to take that path. These adds deal a lot of damage and need to be dealt with quickly. On the flipside, the more factories you have, the faster you produce those adds (and allows you to have more), but the less weaponry you will have.
I hope that makes sense. Of course everything is subject to change. I'm nearing a beta version. The only real thing I need to do is finish up the vehicle abilities and add some basic upgrades for your equipment.
As for running out of ideas for Protoss abilities, I've deliberately tried to keep all the Terran abilities very... Terran. Protoss vehicle abilities will be much more magical/time altering in nature and I feel I've given myself plenty of room to expand on this. I'm not even thinking about this yet, however. As I said I've learnt my lesson with taking on more than I can handle before what I already have is polished, and I won't repeat that mistake.
Regarding the terrany feeling of abilities I just want to illustrate what I thought when reading the abilities for the mech you posted earlier. Now bear in mind these are just my own opinions and maybe you already changed it but thats why I said what I said in my post.
Alright decision between 2 different abilities that control enemy movement.cool.
Yet another snare.. hmmm ok
ok thats basically a psi storm dunno feels somewhat ... uhm think hard...protossy
ok cool a melee-dmg thingie sounds neat but wouldn't it fit a heavy armored unit better to be a battering ram(tank)?
cool a knockback thingie but... hmmm forcewave/gravity - stuff again feels protossy
alright a dmg/stun thingie ok sweet
again the forcewavestuff feels protossy
wow slow down the terran basically rip desecration from the lich king.. ok..but why the hell would the terran guys roll around and throw the original before-beta-mothership-black-hole at their enemies?
seeker missiles en masse? awesome gimme
So to sum it up only 4 abilities out of the 10(Harpoon, Slow, Overload, Seeker Barrage) gave me the vibe to fit a terran goliath/thor. The rest seemed somewhat random. For example it seems you wanted to give the mech some aoe capabilities with Energy Feedback and decay, why not use hunter seeker for aoe instead? Also according to what you said on the last page you already have many weapons that cover aoe so why would you even create so many aoe abilities? See thats why i said better cut some abilities that just end up interfering with the buildable thingies and really add nothing new to the game.
Imo what will end up to differentiate the vehicletypes will be the abilities because everyone can build the same stuff in the hangar. Thats why they should be iconic and not dip into each other.
Examples: OMG there is a fucking laser beam coming from the sky better avoid this and search for the scout who channels it! /or/ holy crap this area is under heavy siege-tank fire better search for the deployed tank and take him out while he can't move!)
thats just me though. :P
ps:whew i have quite the tendency to type long posts
This map looks like a potentially great game based on your video, but I haven't had a chance to see multiplayer in action yet. I know that the map is published on the EU servers, but is it published on US? If not, is there any chance it will be?
Thanks for the time you put into this!
@Szei: Go
I'm currently in the process of redesigning the whole map from the ground up and it's not even in a playable state right now. But yeah, I plan to get a method of uploading to the US before I release this time.
Well, that's good news. I thought your original was nicely polished. But, I guess a brand new one from the ground up would do nicely. And, since you've already made it once, it may be much easier to do it again in a new way. Hope to see a video preview soon! :D
Edit: Something I noticed b4 was that the game suddenly reminded me of something, but I couldn't put my finger on it. This game reminds me of CTF games I've seen b4. Exact type of thing except it yous definitely looks better lol. :D
tf2 maybe? or Unreal tournament is more likely
those look custom
EDIT: most of those are for lost viking just found out >.> but yea use doombot its epic and give it a voice
Finished most of the mech and fighter abilities. Still aiming for a playable beta version by Monday.
@deleted_4551290: Go
Well, the only things used for lost viking are the 2 flying thingies, the nomad was ingame but got replaced by the raven before beta cause some idiots complained that he looks bad, but i dunno i think he's awesome xD
and the tankdrone, battlecruiser,laser drill tank and doombot were never used for anything.
so they are basically custom models that don't eat the 10mb maplimit. ^^
I just threw that out here because i didn't like it that you used the siegetankmodel for the mercs you could buy at the factory in your betarelease, cause you know these were already used by the tank.So i figured maybe a few more models to choose from couln't hurt you Eiviyn.
I've seen the unused Battlecruiser Hurricane model, but it's too low poly to be useable ingame. The laser drill tank is nice, though.
What are the doom bot and tank drone?
well i don't really understand your question just open the map and you will see them ^^
If you want the modelname its under:
Assets/Units/Terran/Hercules/Hercules.m3 for the drone
Asssets/Units/Terran/SuperCraneAdvanced/SuperCraneAdvanced.m3 for the big ass bot
Is alive!