I've only scanned through a few videos and threads regarding UDK, and I'm very interested to knowing what you guys know of this seemingly awesome dev package and how much of it is reflected in SC2 editor.
1. In terms of scripting, what are the similarities between UDK and the SC2 trigger editor and/or SC2 scripting functionality? For example, is it as powerful enough where you can create virtually any conceivable game mechanics currently out in the industry and mix them all up?
2. Level Editing in UDK vs SC2? Your thoughts?
3. Cinematics.
4. Production Pipelines and Development? How complex is UDK, how many people are ideal to make a new game or a clone of a certain game?
5. Data, Actors, and such.
Basically, you guys having developed, learned about, or played with SC2 editor and UDK, what tools do they have that are somewhat similar, regardless of the depths and limitations that are present in either or both of the two? And where or at what point do they become two different development tools?
I havent dig into UDK yet but to me it seems like UDK is more of a professional tools to create standalone game rather than a game that rely on sc2 engine. About complexity, it should be the same or even more freedom in favour of UDK
So, while Sc2 Editor is limited with respect to the available mechanics and such, say for example AI pathing, in UDK we can modify this completely?
I'd like to know if those who are proficient with SC2 Editor would be able to move towards working with the UDK without much of a reboot on one's approach.
How about data editing, does this mean we have to write code for game entities, etc. if we wish to create a new game? I mean, it would be interesting to know how far UDK entities can be pushed and reused. I know this is better asked in the UDK forums, but maybe you guys have accounts there too, as it might take some time for the guys over there to get comfortable and answer newbie questions.
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Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Lol. Yeah, I'm thinking a bit more on the things you can change and what not and how those things are being done.
For example, in SC2 we can change actor behaviors, unit stats, etc. but cannot add a new field to the data editor. Even "actor behavior" is limited in sc2.
I'm reading some documents now on their site but the things listed there seem limited as well.
Maybe the scope of both in terms of what we can do and how similar they are, etc. Say for example you state that UDK is an engine, right? We can also say that SC2 Editor has limits due to the defined SC2 engine and what's available for editing.
In their forums they claim we can make virtually any game we can conceive, but it seems best to understand how far UDK can go. And since there isn't any "editor" I know of that can be used as reference as to which of what are possible and not, I figure maybe you guys can shed some light on UDK by giving comparative info regarding Galaxy and UDK.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
UDK is amazing
i can't off the top of my head think of stuff thats hardcoded.
most of the scripting is done in unreal script which is similar to galaxy but obviously stronger. object based.
level editing is basically the same as sc2 except far far far better. much more you CAN do and far less limitations. all the while remaining very user friendly and wysiwyg.
i've played around with it for a couple weeks so im no expert. i want to go back to it and learn unrealscript properly one day.
Yeah, I've just read a couple of threads asking questions about UDK and the RPG genre. They seem to be hinting that one can create classes (no idea what these are yet) and not use the default classes included with the UDK package.
There was also some talk about the UDK being just a Mod tool or will it somehow be able to allow designers to create their own game rules without being limited to a degree where any product created via UDK is merely a Mod not a New game with different rules.
iirc classes are objects of code
you'd create a class. that would extend another.
easiest example i can think of is.
theres UTGame which sets up weapons, respawning.
UTDeathmatch extends this. adding in scores
then UTTeamDeathmatch extends UTDeathmatch adding teams
then UTCTF extends utteamdeathmatch adding in flags
then you have vehicle CTF which adds in vehicles.
and it goes on like that
so if you wanted to. you could extend UTDeathmatch and maybe change it somehow. make people spawn with a different weapon or change the spawning rules
or you could extend UTGame. creating an entire new game mode. you would have to do alot of work here however.
it all goes to how far back you want to go.
the top most class is called Object
and it's a fucking HUGE document with a chunk of code that is basically the game engine.
i can't see there being many hard coded limitations
i've seen RTS/RPG/TPS
it's just all about how much of unreal's code do you want to use so you dont have to do it yourself and then writing your own classes that extend off UT classes.
but yea. even the RTS stuff i was looking at didn't even need to rewrite much. it just extended off GameInfo i think (the class above UTGame).
If you want to make something, you'd do it in the UDK. The UDK is a full-fledged gloves-off game development tool. Duke Nukem Forever. Unreal Tournament. Hunted: The Demon's Forge. Tera Online. Lineage 2. These and more were created with the Unreal engine or derived from it. The UDK is a more recent and advanced engine than any of those.
All you know in the SC2 editor, save Galaxy and external asset creation in stuff like 3ds max, will mean nothing inside the UDK. But the lessons you learn in design and such overall can certainly apply to any game of any nature.
You want to make an MMO? Yeah, the UDK can do that. RTS? Yes. Tower Defense? In first person, check out Sanctum on Steam. There will be some limits related to the build of the very core of the engine but utterly nothing comparable to sc2. The material editor alone will make you never want to mod ever again.
The real question I would ask if you are looking at the UDK is, what exactly do you want to do with it? If you choose to start a project in the UDK you are very much starting from scratch. You can scrounge the UDK forums for some scripts and such to get you started, but you won't be making Raynor's Happy Happy Kerrigan Pole Club Tower Defense a week-in. Be very confident with your skills.
extra edit 69 - A lot of Unreal Tournament 3 tutorials and such can help you in the UDK even if the interfaces and functions turn out to be a bit different. Programming-related stuff especially may help you out.
But yeah, it's not going to be easy. Given what you mention about it though, I think it's worth it. A team where people with their natural inclinations and abilities working together though would be awesome.
edit:
I think my statement above is quite naive. Learning that lesson the hard way will be hard. I wish to understand how much dedication is required to make a game in UDK, how much man hours, etc. SC2 editor can be daunting enough.
What were your general impressions on the weight of UDK in terms of developing a game through it? Say, an FPS zombie shooter with cool stuff about zombies and gameplay.
It can be done solo if you are an experienced programmer. You do not need someone skilled at graphics code since UDK does that for you. If you can model, texture, and make solid OOP code, you can do it solo given enough time. It depends on how much you're doing; a full FPS would probably need a team of 3 (art, sound, and programming lead - one of the art/sound guys needs to be a programmer, else you need 4 people, plus you can probably combine art/sound if he's really multitalented).
As far as time commitment, it also depends. Again, for a full FPS, your development time will run over a year at a minimum, else you are really good at what you do or the game just sucks.
The BIGGEST difference between UDK and SC2 in terms of development time is that you have to make all of your own assets (artwork and sound), structure your own distribution, polish your own networking, and make a completely polished, tested product before releasing it.
What DarkRevenantX says sums it up in a nutshell. When I was doing my research and planning I planned to do the entire action RPG project I have in mind solo. I wasn't going to be modeling characters, though, just everything else (I can rip assets from where ever and call it a day). Sounds and stuff like that is super easy for me. I have zero experience in programming, though. This is still my game plan once I finish Black Sun's episodes as far as I can go.
I estimated that if I could focus reasonably well, which I can't, since I have no other obligations like school or work I could put together a generic playable level in about a few months. Almost all of that time would be invested in learning programming and applying that knowledge, and learning the ins and outs of the terrain editor (which was recently overhauled, but they still haven't added Foliage back in yet so I haven't even touched it yet). I think another potential timesink will be learning architectural modeling, just because I am really bad at modeling and don't know how to UV or texture and probably never will. I may end up having to rip assets for manmade structures as well. Luckily, this is very fast and easy. The other time will be adapting my ripped assets to working fluidly in their animation system.
If I wanted a fully functional action RPG according to my specifications I was certainly looking at a multi-year devotion at the very least. At most I would be using other people only to outsource very specific stuff like voice acting or having people help me learn programming. I don't know anyone skilled in anything enough to help me and I wouldn't ask anyone to help me until I had a functional internal demo anyways. I am a solo worker. I also don't make projects public anymore.
Sc2's editor is daunting because the layout is terrible and makes simple tasks extremely time consuming. A project of similar scale in BW or Wc3 would cost you 1/4 the time it would in sc2 at the most simply because the editors are laid out better. The UDK has a fairly intuitive interface of what I've experienced so far, but at the same time it is not catered to entry-level people. I think it will reward you very strongly in efficiency once you get into it, though.
For an idea what a few experienced guys can do in just a month's time, check out the Dungeon Defender demo on the UDK site. It's a functional third person tower defense kind of deal with everything built from scratch, and the source is available as well I believe.
In like an hour and a half or so I had three model examples in the UDK. One from World of Warcraft, one from Requiem: Bloodymare, and one from Lineage 2. The chick from Requiem had some issues with shading on her face I'm not sure about, though.
Then I learned I can just drag-drop L2 psa/psk into the UDK and they just *work* as-is. Handy.
Face shading adds to the hotness. Isn't the first thing that catches one's attention though. eh-hehe.
Srsly, yeah, I've not been programming for some time, and I'm only slightly above the beginner level. I write sloppy code but I think somewhat interested in setting up algorithms. I don't know much of the programming jargon nowadays even.
From what you say, maybe I should focus on the Art department and cinematics, then slowly learn UDK's programming language and its thingies in the background.
We share the same situation regarding free time. Though I get bored quite easily.
DarkRevenantX has confirmed my suspicions. Even so, it's all worth it, taking from your example.
I've only scanned through a few videos and threads regarding UDK, and I'm very interested to knowing what you guys know of this seemingly awesome dev package and how much of it is reflected in SC2 editor.
1. In terms of scripting, what are the similarities between UDK and the SC2 trigger editor and/or SC2 scripting functionality? For example, is it as powerful enough where you can create virtually any conceivable game mechanics currently out in the industry and mix them all up?
2. Level Editing in UDK vs SC2? Your thoughts?
3. Cinematics.
4. Production Pipelines and Development? How complex is UDK, how many people are ideal to make a new game or a clone of a certain game?
5. Data, Actors, and such.
Basically, you guys having developed, learned about, or played with SC2 editor and UDK, what tools do they have that are somewhat similar, regardless of the depths and limitations that are present in either or both of the two? And where or at what point do they become two different development tools?
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
I havent dig into UDK yet but to me it seems like UDK is more of a professional tools to create standalone game rather than a game that rely on sc2 engine. About complexity, it should be the same or even more freedom in favour of UDK
That's very interesting.
So, while Sc2 Editor is limited with respect to the available mechanics and such, say for example AI pathing, in UDK we can modify this completely?
I'd like to know if those who are proficient with SC2 Editor would be able to move towards working with the UDK without much of a reboot on one's approach.
How about data editing, does this mean we have to write code for game entities, etc. if we wish to create a new game? I mean, it would be interesting to know how far UDK entities can be pushed and reused. I know this is better asked in the UDK forums, but maybe you guys have accounts there too, as it might take some time for the guys over there to get comfortable and answer newbie questions.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
UDK is an actual game engine.
SC2 is an RTS editor.
i can't really think of how you would compare something that's awesome to something that sucks.
Lol. Yeah, I'm thinking a bit more on the things you can change and what not and how those things are being done.
For example, in SC2 we can change actor behaviors, unit stats, etc. but cannot add a new field to the data editor. Even "actor behavior" is limited in sc2.
I'm reading some documents now on their site but the things listed there seem limited as well.
Maybe the scope of both in terms of what we can do and how similar they are, etc. Say for example you state that UDK is an engine, right? We can also say that SC2 Editor has limits due to the defined SC2 engine and what's available for editing.
In their forums they claim we can make virtually any game we can conceive, but it seems best to understand how far UDK can go. And since there isn't any "editor" I know of that can be used as reference as to which of what are possible and not, I figure maybe you guys can shed some light on UDK by giving comparative info regarding Galaxy and UDK.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Yeah, I've just read a couple of threads asking questions about UDK and the RPG genre. They seem to be hinting that one can create classes (no idea what these are yet) and not use the default classes included with the UDK package.
There was also some talk about the UDK being just a Mod tool or will it somehow be able to allow designers to create their own game rules without being limited to a degree where any product created via UDK is merely a Mod not a New game with different rules.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Very interesting and promising. By what you just said, Mav, this thing really is some kind of "game maker".
One of these days my friend. One of these days... :)
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
Let's put it this way.
If you want to make something, you'd do it in the UDK. The UDK is a full-fledged gloves-off game development tool. Duke Nukem Forever. Unreal Tournament. Hunted: The Demon's Forge. Tera Online. Lineage 2. These and more were created with the Unreal engine or derived from it. The UDK is a more recent and advanced engine than any of those.
All you know in the SC2 editor, save Galaxy and external asset creation in stuff like 3ds max, will mean nothing inside the UDK. But the lessons you learn in design and such overall can certainly apply to any game of any nature.
You want to make an MMO? Yeah, the UDK can do that. RTS? Yes. Tower Defense? In first person, check out Sanctum on Steam. There will be some limits related to the build of the very core of the engine but utterly nothing comparable to sc2. The material editor alone will make you never want to mod ever again.
The real question I would ask if you are looking at the UDK is, what exactly do you want to do with it? If you choose to start a project in the UDK you are very much starting from scratch. You can scrounge the UDK forums for some scripts and such to get you started, but you won't be making Raynor's Happy Happy Kerrigan Pole Club Tower Defense a week-in. Be very confident with your skills.
extra edit 69 - A lot of Unreal Tournament 3 tutorials and such can help you in the UDK even if the interfaces and functions turn out to be a bit different. Programming-related stuff especially may help you out.
It all starts with "hello world" in C. :)
But yeah, it's not going to be easy. Given what you mention about it though, I think it's worth it. A team where people with their natural inclinations and abilities working together though would be awesome.
edit:
I think my statement above is quite naive. Learning that lesson the hard way will be hard. I wish to understand how much dedication is required to make a game in UDK, how much man hours, etc. SC2 editor can be daunting enough.
What were your general impressions on the weight of UDK in terms of developing a game through it? Say, an FPS zombie shooter with cool stuff about zombies and gameplay.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
It can be done solo if you are an experienced programmer. You do not need someone skilled at graphics code since UDK does that for you. If you can model, texture, and make solid OOP code, you can do it solo given enough time. It depends on how much you're doing; a full FPS would probably need a team of 3 (art, sound, and programming lead - one of the art/sound guys needs to be a programmer, else you need 4 people, plus you can probably combine art/sound if he's really multitalented).
As far as time commitment, it also depends. Again, for a full FPS, your development time will run over a year at a minimum, else you are really good at what you do or the game just sucks.
The BIGGEST difference between UDK and SC2 in terms of development time is that you have to make all of your own assets (artwork and sound), structure your own distribution, polish your own networking, and make a completely polished, tested product before releasing it.
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
What DarkRevenantX says sums it up in a nutshell. When I was doing my research and planning I planned to do the entire action RPG project I have in mind solo. I wasn't going to be modeling characters, though, just everything else (I can rip assets from where ever and call it a day). Sounds and stuff like that is super easy for me. I have zero experience in programming, though. This is still my game plan once I finish Black Sun's episodes as far as I can go.
I estimated that if I could focus reasonably well, which I can't, since I have no other obligations like school or work I could put together a generic playable level in about a few months. Almost all of that time would be invested in learning programming and applying that knowledge, and learning the ins and outs of the terrain editor (which was recently overhauled, but they still haven't added Foliage back in yet so I haven't even touched it yet). I think another potential timesink will be learning architectural modeling, just because I am really bad at modeling and don't know how to UV or texture and probably never will. I may end up having to rip assets for manmade structures as well. Luckily, this is very fast and easy. The other time will be adapting my ripped assets to working fluidly in their animation system.
If I wanted a fully functional action RPG according to my specifications I was certainly looking at a multi-year devotion at the very least. At most I would be using other people only to outsource very specific stuff like voice acting or having people help me learn programming. I don't know anyone skilled in anything enough to help me and I wouldn't ask anyone to help me until I had a functional internal demo anyways. I am a solo worker. I also don't make projects public anymore.
Sc2's editor is daunting because the layout is terrible and makes simple tasks extremely time consuming. A project of similar scale in BW or Wc3 would cost you 1/4 the time it would in sc2 at the most simply because the editors are laid out better. The UDK has a fairly intuitive interface of what I've experienced so far, but at the same time it is not catered to entry-level people. I think it will reward you very strongly in efficiency once you get into it, though.
For an idea what a few experienced guys can do in just a month's time, check out the Dungeon Defender demo on the UDK site. It's a functional third person tower defense kind of deal with everything built from scratch, and the source is available as well I believe.
In like an hour and a half or so I had three model examples in the UDK. One from World of Warcraft, one from Requiem: Bloodymare, and one from Lineage 2. The chick from Requiem had some issues with shading on her face I'm not sure about, though.
Then I learned I can just drag-drop L2 psa/psk into the UDK and they just *work* as-is. Handy.
Face shading adds to the hotness. Isn't the first thing that catches one's attention though. eh-hehe.
Srsly, yeah, I've not been programming for some time, and I'm only slightly above the beginner level. I write sloppy code but I think somewhat interested in setting up algorithms. I don't know much of the programming jargon nowadays even.
From what you say, maybe I should focus on the Art department and cinematics, then slowly learn UDK's programming language and its thingies in the background.
We share the same situation regarding free time. Though I get bored quite easily.
DarkRevenantX has confirmed my suspicions. Even so, it's all worth it, taking from your example.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Requiem is very Asian, yes.
From what I have read, cinematics aren't too difficult to do and will get you into the Kismet system.
If you ever make anything interesting, do let me know.
Of course. :)
Oh, and guys, you all need to hear this:
http://campaigncreations.org/podcast/2011-06-09
It's a podcast about starting projects.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Nice.
Thanks Stewox, and to everyone who gave their thoughts thanks.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.