Well I've exhausted my avenues here, you and now Vjeux have made it clear you'd prefer to put all the locked maps on battle.net at greater risk and use them as leverage to try and make blizzard improve the locks yet won't even try to talk about it in their own forums.
Hey ... we just decided to keep this thread open.
Our intent is just to make sure that we can freely talk about anything related to mapping on sc2mapster. This is in no way a political act to make Blizzard improve the locks. As of the locks, I talked to Blizzard about this few weeks ago and they said that they will eventually improve the locking system, but they have no timeline for it yet. I guess they want to spend their resources improving the editor rather than fighting map stealing :)
Bah its hard to stay away from when someone reasonable responds ;)
Aye, I know that being able to discuss just about anything is usually better then censoring and suppressing information. Just while I agree its important to let map makers know that these sorts of things are out there, I don't agree with providing the very people who want to crack maps with a set of instructions on how to do it. Let's face it, every time a protection has been implemented by a user it gets cracked so there is very little point in trying to develop our own protections to stop the process that's laid out in such detail in the first post of this thread. We must wait for Blizzard and we have as usual no time line from blizzard on when that's going to happen. So the best we can do to protect our maps is to slow the spread of knowledge on how to crack them...and this thread's first post's instructions kinda negates that since its sitting dead center in the largest resource for map making for starcraft 2. So this thread essentially strips the map makers of the best available defense against cracking, that's what we have issues with.
This is the first time (I think) that Blizzard is actually trying to implement a locking mechanism for maps and yah its pretty rough and easy to defeat, but no sense in sabotaging it by posting the crack for it right here....which btw I still think is no better then posting a nocd crack for the client itself, ethically or legally if you take into account how the EULA talks about how all maps become blizzard property...
That's my view and that's why I am so torn on staying with a site that ignores my pleads to keep locks as obfuscated as possible until Blizzard has time to work out a proper method. Talk about how they're crackable for sure, but please don't give the crackers instructions on a silver platter like this.
Bah its hard to stay away from when someone reasonable responds ;)
Aye, I know that being able to discuss just about anything is usually better then censoring and suppressing information. Just while I agree its important to let map makers know that these sorts of things are out there, I don't agree with providing the very people who want to crack maps with a set of instructions on how to do it. Let's face it, every time a protection has been implemented by a user it gets cracked so there is very little point in trying to develop our own protections to stop the process that's laid out in such detail in the first post of this thread. We must wait for Blizzard and we have as usual no time line from blizzard on when that's going to happen. So the best we can do to protect our maps is to slow the spread of knowledge on how to crack them...and this thread's first post's instructions kinda negates that since its sitting dead center in the largest resource for map making for starcraft 2. So this thread essentially strips the map makers of the best available defense against cracking, that's what we have issues with.
This is the first time (I think) that Blizzard is actually trying to implement a locking mechanism for maps and yah its pretty rough and easy to defeat, but no sense in sabotaging it by posting the crack for it right here....which btw I still think is no better then posting a nocd crack for the client itself, ethically or legally if you take into account how the EULA talks about how all maps become blizzard property...
That's my view and that's why I am so torn on staying with a site that ignores my pleads to keep locks as obfuscated as possible until Blizzard has time to work out a proper method. Talk about how they're crackable for sure, but please don't give the crackers instructions on a silver platter like this.
As been said many times, we can only hide this for so long. It doesn't make sense to hide the information because it will pop up time and time again. I believe that there will some kind of locking method discovered that cannot be reversed, eventually... It'll come. Just be patient and work at it.
Yes, this is the first time Blizzard is implementing a locking system. In both SC1 and War3 (nobody bothered in War2) the protectors were user created. NoCD cracks are useless because the client already runs without a CD. So... Yeah...
What do you propose we do? As an author, I want to know how people can steal my map so I can prevent it from happening. PM is a smart guy. Obfuscating Galaxy and Data so nobody can access his map info. Sure, his map isn't technically locked, but it'll be obfuscated enough to the point that nobody will know what the hell is what. It's this kind of stuff that needs to be done.
wow i can't believe this went on for 8 pages, props Sixen for taking all the heat lol.
My 2 cents, when something is obviously flawed you expose it, you don't hide it and hope that no one sees it...
By the way, just wait for the premium maps feature to kick off, i'm pretty sure Blizzard will take action when money gets involved.
@ ProzaicMuze:
I've read this entire thread calmly and patiently, but I have to say your first post was the only one that got me raging.
I am one of those who wants to lock his map(s).
Are you calling me a selfish idiot?!
Hell If spend hours, days, mounths maybe even years to create a map is it so selfish that I don't want everyone to be able to steal my ideas? All my work? I never even considered opening someone else's map to see how this or that has been done. That is unless the map has been explicitly created as tutorial.
I figure everything out by myself and only ask the forums if am REALY stuck on something I can't find out by mysef.
So say for example I am making a 3rd Person Shooter Map and I really can't figure out how to make a character jump. So I bring up a topic on the forums and you(might as well refer to SC2Mapster in general) come around with a good jump system that allows collisions, jumping over obstacles and what not. Does that mean that once I am done with my map, I have to show it to you?
So you get to see:
Your jump system
My WASD movement System
My physics System
My camera System
My projectile engine
My custom GUI
My Score/Frag System
My Content e.g. Weapons, Powerups, Characters ...
etc.
So you provided less then 1/8 of the solutions and I provided 7/8 of the slutions.
Still I have to show you my solutions that I worked on so hard? Otherwise by your definition I'd be a "selfish idiot"?
There is something VERY wrong about that statement.
Don't get me wrong: I am not saying that I am not willing to share my knowledge, i certainly am.
In WC3s days I made a cinematic that was very unsual and ended up being one of a kind. (No i am not boasting, just trying to get a point across) I got a lot of replies on the thread, asking how I did this or that and I was quite willing to provide answers.
BUT i was not willing to give out an unlocked version of the map.
Do you see the difference? If someone wants to know how I did something in a map, that person just has to ASK ME. Not crack open my map.
Pros of that apprach:
It's much easier for that other person since he/she desn't have to bother with unlocking
he/she can get an explaination how it works and even a variation that suits his/her purposes better
It gives me the confidence that my work is appriciated
It formed more than one friendship
...
Cons of that apprach:
... I suppose you have to communicate ... very difficult ...
Mappers are not faceless companies, they are private persons. We can be TALKED with. I think most mappers would agree with me on that. Forums like these prove it enough. But if someone doesn't even bother asking and instead right away just spys me out or even steals my work, I can not accept that. And if I am defensive about a certain technique I used and I am not willing to share it(at least not as a whole) than I have my reasons and you should respect it instead of calling me a "selfish idiot".
Allright, I realize this is getting lengthy and there is annother problem I haven't touched yet. So:
@ Everyone still reading this:
What do we achieve with letting this "how to" in here? We show mappers that blizzard's locking system isn't safe?
Hell, I don't know about you guys but I knew that all along. It was basicly clear even before it was introduced that it wouldn't be that awesome, it's their first time ever touching something ike that, after all. No offense but if any of you believed it to be safe, that was pretty naive.
So what do we achieve by showing mappers that blizzard's locking system isn't safe?
Well we encourage mappers to develop some way of protecting their maps better, just like they did in Wc3. Isn't that right Sixen? That's your argument all along, correct me if i'm wrong. Well assure you, I have absolutely no idea of that business and I can't even think of how you might protect a file with a third hand tool and still make it possible to upload it via Galaxy.
And those people who are good at making protectors, don't you think they allready know how unsafe blizzards safe system is? What about the persons who made the Wc3 Protection tools? Do you think these peope need to be slapped in the face with this thread to wake up and start thinking of a solution?
No. I assure you, these people have started searching for a protection method ever since they first saw a .SC2map file. I don't see the point of saying "try making a protection tool" to EVERY mapper on the planet since that is way beyond the avarage mapper's possibilities.
But the people who actually have that kind of skill are the ones we should put our trust in and i am quite convinced that the are allready working on it.
Mappers solve mapping problems, encrypters solve encryption problems.
Wake up calls in the past have set major things in progress, but i think in this situation the wake up call was mounths ago.
Don't underestimate the community.
In the end we don't really speed up the lock development process with this. Instead we speed up the unlock developement process.
Think about it: Can you help hospitals develop a vaccine by spreading the virus?
I think that about sums up what I was going to say. If you have things to critisize, go ahead. Especially you, Sixen and ProzaicMuze.
I've only skimmed through the thread but I'm with the people who don't want guides on unlocking locked maps spread. This is because of this following reason:
When I publish a map I'm presented with two options: to have it locked or have it unlocked. If I want to have it unlocked, all well and good. It's open to the public and I should expect the public to do what ever they want with it. If I want to have it locked, that means I've made the decision to not allow people to have open access to it's inner workings.
The only real immediate links of interest are the first two: one on TeamLiquid's forum and the thread here on SC2Mapster. I haven't tried the method mentioned on TeamLiquid, but one of the posters stated that the posted method didn't work.
So yes, within 5seconds of looking on google, anyone can find what they need to gainsay the decision I made. I do not like this.
Yes, I know that no security system is fool proof. Yes, with enough patience you can find anything in the dark recesses of the internet. Yes, I know that major corporations can spend billions to develop security technology which people can break within an hour. But I see no reason to make it easy for others to learn how to do so. That simple.
Yes, but the bosses decided that the pros of keeping it outweight the cons, and that (although we'll not tolerate hacked maps) mapster should be a base for all kinds of knowledge.
Not everyone in the staff agreed, not everyone disagreed. We've had quite a bit of talk internally, but in the end it has been decided that it stays.
I seek refuge in the knowledge that most wanna-be hackers are too stupid to even use google.
Hopefully Blizzard updates the locking soon. And hopefully, when they do update it, we don't have any new posts on mapster on how to break the new locks. My guess is the updated locking will come out with the Blizzard custom maps.
Why do you think that? Blizzard's allready annouced that the Blizzard custom maps will not be locked in the first place. Furthermore they encouraged us to upen up these maps for learning purposes. There is no way we could fake these maps anyway, not with the blizzard symbol still attached. I wonder what would happen if someone actually managed to find a way to fake the blizzard authification, there would be a major uproar i suppose.
Yes, but the bosses decided that the pros of keeping it outweight the cons, and that (although we'll not tolerate hacked maps) mapster should be a base for all kinds of knowledge.
I don't see the pros, seriously. As I stated in my last post, these pros aren't worth much.
Imagine you would run a Car Magazine, and one day you decided to publish an article on how to short circuit or otherwise steal cars. Your sustification for pulishing it would be "Sc2carster is a place where ALL information regarding cars should be made available in a neutral way". What would happen? You'd get into MAJOR trouble of course.
And now don't come with that arguement that it matters whether money is involved or not, because it doesn't. Or at least it shouldn't. It makes me sick that the term "mental property" does exists but law usually doesn't do a heck to protect what's not material.
In fact I think it's the people who can't tell right from wrong WITHOUT any law being involved who belong into prison. Having said that, I'll admit that i am taking this to far in the political direction so I will stop right here.
How is this thread still up and why hasn't it been deleted yet?
If someone wanted their map open to the public then they wouldn't lock it in the first place. Unlocking maps is not only unethical but it is also ILLEGAL in Canada, the United States and most of Europe. And by allowing this thread to continue to exist and not deleting it, SC2 Mapster is facilitating illegal activities.
Property rights exist for a reason, they let people benefit from their work. If a mapmaker spends a lot of time on a map and develops some really cool features, they might not want their work just copied by another individual. If there are no locks and people can just copy the work of another individual then this significantly reduces the incentive to spend a lot of time on a map and will harm the map making community in the long run.
The mods have already determined that it will stay up.
If this offends you.... go find a better source for SC2 editor information..... good luck
That's a great attitude. If you don't like it leave. Never try to change anything ...
If I didn't care about this site, I would have left at this point. But I, for one, am trying to convince the mods that they are taking the completely wrong direction here.
am trying to convince the mods that they are taking the completely wrong direction here.
I dont approve of this thread at all. Neither do some of the other mods. However, as S3rius mentioned, we were overruled on this and we cant really do anything about it.
"You have no property rights concerning your maps. It says in the EULA its all property of blizzard."
And the bible says that god created the world 6000 years ago. That doesn't make it true.
"If this offends you.... go find a better source for SC2 editor information..... good luck"
It doesn't offend me. Rather I can't agree with people unlocking other people's maps because it is unethical. Furthermore, I cannot agree with a decision to leave open a thread that facilitates illegal activities.
Well I figured there has been quite the discussion in the background but i really can't get my head around how you could end with that decision.
So far I have only seen 3 people here who want to keep this thread, and only 2 of them were mods if I recall right.
Considering the vast amount of people who are against it, it would seem to me that this decision means that the public opinion has been completely ignored at those meetings.
We're not here just to criticize, flame and spam we're trying to warn you (the people running this site) of a big mistake. And I think we had plenty of good arguments too.
Hey ... we just decided to keep this thread open.
Our intent is just to make sure that we can freely talk about anything related to mapping on sc2mapster. This is in no way a political act to make Blizzard improve the locks. As of the locks, I talked to Blizzard about this few weeks ago and they said that they will eventually improve the locking system, but they have no timeline for it yet. I guess they want to spend their resources improving the editor rather than fighting map stealing :)
@vjeux: Go
Bah its hard to stay away from when someone reasonable responds ;)
Aye, I know that being able to discuss just about anything is usually better then censoring and suppressing information. Just while I agree its important to let map makers know that these sorts of things are out there, I don't agree with providing the very people who want to crack maps with a set of instructions on how to do it. Let's face it, every time a protection has been implemented by a user it gets cracked so there is very little point in trying to develop our own protections to stop the process that's laid out in such detail in the first post of this thread. We must wait for Blizzard and we have as usual no time line from blizzard on when that's going to happen. So the best we can do to protect our maps is to slow the spread of knowledge on how to crack them...and this thread's first post's instructions kinda negates that since its sitting dead center in the largest resource for map making for starcraft 2. So this thread essentially strips the map makers of the best available defense against cracking, that's what we have issues with.
This is the first time (I think) that Blizzard is actually trying to implement a locking mechanism for maps and yah its pretty rough and easy to defeat, but no sense in sabotaging it by posting the crack for it right here....which btw I still think is no better then posting a nocd crack for the client itself, ethically or legally if you take into account how the EULA talks about how all maps become blizzard property...
That's my view and that's why I am so torn on staying with a site that ignores my pleads to keep locks as obfuscated as possible until Blizzard has time to work out a proper method. Talk about how they're crackable for sure, but please don't give the crackers instructions on a silver platter like this.
@BumpInTheNight: Go
The instructions arnt all that specific IMHO.
How about you go try it and see where you get and then reply.
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ModeratorsAs been said many times, we can only hide this for so long. It doesn't make sense to hide the information because it will pop up time and time again. I believe that there will some kind of locking method discovered that cannot be reversed, eventually... It'll come. Just be patient and work at it.
Yes, this is the first time Blizzard is implementing a locking system. In both SC1 and War3 (nobody bothered in War2) the protectors were user created. NoCD cracks are useless because the client already runs without a CD. So... Yeah...
What do you propose we do? As an author, I want to know how people can steal my map so I can prevent it from happening. PM is a smart guy. Obfuscating Galaxy and Data so nobody can access his map info. Sure, his map isn't technically locked, but it'll be obfuscated enough to the point that nobody will know what the hell is what. It's this kind of stuff that needs to be done.
wow i can't believe this went on for 8 pages, props Sixen for taking all the heat lol. My 2 cents, when something is obviously flawed you expose it, you don't hide it and hope that no one sees it...
By the way, just wait for the premium maps feature to kick off, i'm pretty sure Blizzard will take action when money gets involved.
@ ProzaicMuze: I've read this entire thread calmly and patiently, but I have to say your first post was the only one that got me raging.
I am one of those who wants to lock his map(s). Are you calling me a selfish idiot?! Hell If spend hours, days, mounths maybe even years to create a map is it so selfish that I don't want everyone to be able to steal my ideas? All my work? I never even considered opening someone else's map to see how this or that has been done. That is unless the map has been explicitly created as tutorial.
I figure everything out by myself and only ask the forums if am REALY stuck on something I can't find out by mysef.
So say for example I am making a 3rd Person Shooter Map and I really can't figure out how to make a character jump. So I bring up a topic on the forums and you(might as well refer to SC2Mapster in general) come around with a good jump system that allows collisions, jumping over obstacles and what not. Does that mean that once I am done with my map, I have to show it to you?
So you get to see:
So you provided less then 1/8 of the solutions and I provided 7/8 of the slutions. Still I have to show you my solutions that I worked on so hard? Otherwise by your definition I'd be a "selfish idiot"? There is something VERY wrong about that statement.
Don't get me wrong: I am not saying that I am not willing to share my knowledge, i certainly am. In WC3s days I made a cinematic that was very unsual and ended up being one of a kind. (No i am not boasting, just trying to get a point across) I got a lot of replies on the thread, asking how I did this or that and I was quite willing to provide answers. BUT i was not willing to give out an unlocked version of the map.
Do you see the difference? If someone wants to know how I did something in a map, that person just has to ASK ME. Not crack open my map.
Pros of that apprach:
Cons of that apprach:
Mappers are not faceless companies, they are private persons. We can be TALKED with. I think most mappers would agree with me on that. Forums like these prove it enough. But if someone doesn't even bother asking and instead right away just spys me out or even steals my work, I can not accept that. And if I am defensive about a certain technique I used and I am not willing to share it(at least not as a whole) than I have my reasons and you should respect it instead of calling me a "selfish idiot".
Allright, I realize this is getting lengthy and there is annother problem I haven't touched yet. So:
@ Everyone still reading this:
What do we achieve with letting this "how to" in here? We show mappers that blizzard's locking system isn't safe? Hell, I don't know about you guys but I knew that all along. It was basicly clear even before it was introduced that it wouldn't be that awesome, it's their first time ever touching something ike that, after all. No offense but if any of you believed it to be safe, that was pretty naive.
So what do we achieve by showing mappers that blizzard's locking system isn't safe? Well we encourage mappers to develop some way of protecting their maps better, just like they did in Wc3. Isn't that right Sixen? That's your argument all along, correct me if i'm wrong. Well assure you, I have absolutely no idea of that business and I can't even think of how you might protect a file with a third hand tool and still make it possible to upload it via Galaxy.
And those people who are good at making protectors, don't you think they allready know how unsafe blizzards safe system is? What about the persons who made the Wc3 Protection tools? Do you think these peope need to be slapped in the face with this thread to wake up and start thinking of a solution? No. I assure you, these people have started searching for a protection method ever since they first saw a .SC2map file. I don't see the point of saying "try making a protection tool" to EVERY mapper on the planet since that is way beyond the avarage mapper's possibilities. But the people who actually have that kind of skill are the ones we should put our trust in and i am quite convinced that the are allready working on it. Mappers solve mapping problems, encrypters solve encryption problems. Wake up calls in the past have set major things in progress, but i think in this situation the wake up call was mounths ago. Don't underestimate the community.
In the end we don't really speed up the lock development process with this. Instead we speed up the unlock developement process.
Think about it: Can you help hospitals develop a vaccine by spreading the virus?
I think that about sums up what I was going to say. If you have things to critisize, go ahead. Especially you, Sixen and ProzaicMuze.
I've only skimmed through the thread but I'm with the people who don't want guides on unlocking locked maps spread. This is because of this following reason:
When I publish a map I'm presented with two options: to have it locked or have it unlocked. If I want to have it unlocked, all well and good. It's open to the public and I should expect the public to do what ever they want with it. If I want to have it locked, that means I've made the decision to not allow people to have open access to it's inner workings.
Out of curiosity, I went to google and searched for the first thing that popped into my head on map unlocking: 'unlocking locked maps sc2'. Here's the link: http://www.google.com.au/search?q=unlocking+locked+maps+sc2&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
The only real immediate links of interest are the first two: one on TeamLiquid's forum and the thread here on SC2Mapster. I haven't tried the method mentioned on TeamLiquid, but one of the posters stated that the posted method didn't work.
So yes, within 5seconds of looking on google, anyone can find what they need to gainsay the decision I made. I do not like this.
Yes, I know that no security system is fool proof. Yes, with enough patience you can find anything in the dark recesses of the internet. Yes, I know that major corporations can spend billions to develop security technology which people can break within an hour. But I see no reason to make it easy for others to learn how to do so. That simple.
@ChromiumBoy: Go
You know the first result in TL is for unlocking sc1 map right ?
But yeah for sc they beat every other site.
I had another look progammer, and yup your right. So, that makes SC2Mapster your first stop shop for learning how to unlock SC2 maps. Hooray!
@ChromiumBoy: Go
Yes, but the bosses decided that the pros of keeping it outweight the cons, and that (although we'll not tolerate hacked maps) mapster should be a base for all kinds of knowledge.
Not everyone in the staff agreed, not everyone disagreed. We've had quite a bit of talk internally, but in the end it has been decided that it stays.
I seek refuge in the knowledge that most wanna-be hackers are too stupid to even use google.
@s3rius:
Hopefully Blizzard updates the locking soon. And hopefully, when they do update it, we don't have any new posts on mapster on how to break the new locks. My guess is the updated locking will come out with the Blizzard custom maps.
@barakatx2: Go
Why do you think that? Blizzard's allready annouced that the Blizzard custom maps will not be locked in the first place. Furthermore they encouraged us to upen up these maps for learning purposes. There is no way we could fake these maps anyway, not with the blizzard symbol still attached. I wonder what would happen if someone actually managed to find a way to fake the blizzard authification, there would be a major uproar i suppose.
I don't see the pros, seriously. As I stated in my last post, these pros aren't worth much.
Imagine you would run a Car Magazine, and one day you decided to publish an article on how to short circuit or otherwise steal cars. Your sustification for pulishing it would be "Sc2carster is a place where ALL information regarding cars should be made available in a neutral way". What would happen? You'd get into MAJOR trouble of course.
And now don't come with that arguement that it matters whether money is involved or not, because it doesn't. Or at least it shouldn't. It makes me sick that the term "mental property" does exists but law usually doesn't do a heck to protect what's not material.
In fact I think it's the people who can't tell right from wrong WITHOUT any law being involved who belong into prison. Having said that, I'll admit that i am taking this to far in the political direction so I will stop right here.
How is this thread still up and why hasn't it been deleted yet?
If someone wanted their map open to the public then they wouldn't lock it in the first place. Unlocking maps is not only unethical but it is also ILLEGAL in Canada, the United States and most of Europe. And by allowing this thread to continue to exist and not deleting it, SC2 Mapster is facilitating illegal activities.
Property rights exist for a reason, they let people benefit from their work. If a mapmaker spends a lot of time on a map and develops some really cool features, they might not want their work just copied by another individual. If there are no locks and people can just copy the work of another individual then this significantly reduces the incentive to spend a lot of time on a map and will harm the map making community in the long run.
@iiequalsexpipi: Go
You have no property rights concerning your maps. It says in the EULA its all property of blizzard.
This thread is still up to make people aware of the lack of security regarding blizzard's locking mechanism.
The mods have already determined that it will stay up.
If this offends you.... go find a better source for SC2 editor information..... good luck
Mods need to lock this thread... (i mean after they fix the locked thread bug)
That's a great attitude. If you don't like it leave. Never try to change anything ... If I didn't care about this site, I would have left at this point. But I, for one, am trying to convince the mods that they are taking the completely wrong direction here.
If you think that's futile, keep thinking so.
I dont approve of this thread at all. Neither do some of the other mods. However, as S3rius mentioned, we were overruled on this and we cant really do anything about it.
BTW posting on this thread helps people find it easier.... so your not helping your argument by making the topic more active.....
This topic is the second thing that pops up when you google search for it. Can hardly do more damage than has been done.
"You have no property rights concerning your maps. It says in the EULA its all property of blizzard."
And the bible says that god created the world 6000 years ago. That doesn't make it true.
"If this offends you.... go find a better source for SC2 editor information..... good luck"
It doesn't offend me. Rather I can't agree with people unlocking other people's maps because it is unethical. Furthermore, I cannot agree with a decision to leave open a thread that facilitates illegal activities.
@EternalWraith: Go
Well I figured there has been quite the discussion in the background but i really can't get my head around how you could end with that decision.
So far I have only seen 3 people here who want to keep this thread, and only 2 of them were mods if I recall right. Considering the vast amount of people who are against it, it would seem to me that this decision means that the public opinion has been completely ignored at those meetings.
We're not here just to criticize, flame and spam we're trying to warn you (the people running this site) of a big mistake. And I think we had plenty of good arguments too.
That's an even better attitude. "If you talk about the problem, it will get worse, so better shut up." Is this what you're saying?