Big maps have to be treated way different that smaller ones. I will detail below.
The problem with mapmakers in general is they just finish their map and release it (or release beta maps). This is esspecially bad for big maps as they are not pick up and play. Makers of big maps need to treat thier map like a product if they really want it to catch on. They should do a ton of videos, put up a professional website and make people excited to see the day when the map gets published.
In other words, treat your map like its a real game release with sneak peaks, youtube extravaganzas, closed beta tests and get a player base before your map even comes out. Yeah you are might have to throw some money into it but if you want to compete with the big dogs (or should I say little dogs :P ) there will always be a price.
If you want a large map to be popular do this.
Wait till its almost done and then announce it.
Have a somewhat professional website ready at announcement.
Invite people to beta test your map privately THAT day.
Release multiple Youtube videos on announcement day and then release at least two videos a week until the game "launches".
If you do this you will garner fans (if your map is worth a damn in the first place) because those beta testers will spread word as will all your hype press. This way you will have players when your map launches.
But the #1 thing you SHOULD NOT do is...
DO NOT RELEASE BETA MAPS. Get beta testers, beg if you have to but do not release a buggy map and expect it to still do well.
Completely disagree ..... Im thinking you never tried making maps on WC3. Wc3 had a very hard time getting maps to catch on as well. there were 1000's of maps but most of them were only host in small niche groups. That sounds very familiar to what we all ready have. I release my map because well I want to. The fact that its on the bottom of the list means nothing to me, because it basically means nothing.
Secondly Redfox why do you care so much about what to make or not make. IMO you have to want to make something because you want to make it. Not because one thing will have a better change to be "popular" or not. I bet you in a year the maps that are popular right now wont be then (except maybe Nexus Wars.) But yeah you gotta figure the best maps on WC3 had a couple years worth of on and off updates and work on them.
I say if you think you have something fun and interesting, relaease it and see what the feed back you get on it is. Then if you feel like you can make it better. Have fun with your map making. Take pride in a job well done. If you cant handle fourteen year olds flaming the forums about how "broke, terrible, sucky, imbalanced, unfished, unoriginal, you get the point" , then dont make maps in the first place.
Why did you even bother with that post? Redfox777 hit the nail on the head with his post. If you don't care about your map being played, that's your business. It doesn't detract from his post at all. For people who do care about having their map played, I would recommend reading Redfox777's post.
My post was directed at the people who care. You know, the people that dream of being game designers but are getting snuffed out because they think their ideas suck due to nobody playing their maps.
There are so many great ideas that are not getting played right now. I absolutely know this has to be the case. Out among the trash are the hidden gems and they will remain hidden because their creators did nothing to promote the maps. This is a shame because the next "DoTA" could be out there.
I want to help people succeed and in this highly competitive market its going to take going the extra mile to get noticed. If you don't care if people play your creation and you only do this for the fun then that's your prerogative.
But I have never met an artist that locks his creations in a closet. ;)
I will say that the day anything stops being fun I quit doing it that will go with my writing, mapmaking, gaming, etc.
Why do you even release your maps if you don't care if they get played or not? I create maps first and foremost because I enjoy the creation process, but that doesn't mean I want my maps to remain unplayed, and in the current system thats how they will be. The system is clearly broken if people have to resort to things like this to boost their maps initially.
On the other side of things not only does it suck as a mapper but it sucks as a player. I log on to the same 1-2 decent custom games in the first page and anything past that is NEVER played. I must have played at least 50 enjoyable maps in WC3. In SC2, maybe 3 so far. The thing that sucks is I know there are many more out there that must be pretty fun but I just don't have the chance to play them on battle.net
Maps should be given a fair chance for the sake of the mappers and the players. Why complain about people who have issue with the way things are now? It really isn't up to scratch and it shouldn't be too hard for Blizzard to change it.
In wc3 not a lot of people could host, that's why only mostly niche groups hosted the maps. I don't really agree with redfox on going as far as to make a website, but he was correct to say you shouldn't release the map without a fan base. Cause no one will ever ever see it.
he is saying there are enough TD maps, if you want a popular map, don't try another TD
I've agreed with pretty much everything else he has said, but this is dumb. Clearly TD is a popular genre on SC2, so why not try and capitalize on that? Of course, if you take the mentality that you aren't capable enough to beat the competition that's a different story.
Quote from Redfox777:
Big maps have to be treated way different that smaller ones. I will detail below.
The problem with mapmakers in general is they just finish their map and release it (or release beta maps). This is esspecially bad for big maps as they are not pick up and play. Makers of big maps need to treat thier map like a product if they really want it to catch on. They should do a ton of videos, put up a professional website and make people excited to see the day when the map gets published.
In other words, treat your map like its a real game release with sneak peaks, youtube extravaganzas, closed beta tests and get a player base before your map even comes out. Yeah you might have to throw some money into it but if you want to compete with the big dogs (or should I say little dogs :P ) there will always be a price.
If you want a large map to be popular do this.
Wait till its almost done and then announce it.
Have a somewhat professional website ready at announcement.
Invite people to beta test your map privately THAT day.
Release multiple Youtube videos on announcement day and then release at least two videos a week until the game "launches".
If you do this you will garner fans (if your map is worth a damn in the first place) because those beta testers will spread word as will all your hype press. This way you will have players when your map launches.
But the #1 thing you SHOULD NOT do is...
DO NOT RELEASE BETA MAPS. Get beta testers, beg if you have to but do not release a buggy map and expect it to still do well.
This guy is speaking the truth! The development plan for my map project which I think has been on for about a month now looks very much like what this guy is saying (including releasing videos before public release and NOT making a beta). Seriously, this post hits the nail on the head and it continues to encourage me that I'm on the right track.
If you allow me to add something to this: PLAN YOUR PROJECTS WELL! I'm not going to say much about what I'm doing because that ruins the surprise but I really want it to be big. Something that is helping me is having a good plan. I've written tooltips for all the abilities beforehand and then you'll be amazed at how quickly you work to implement it.
Within the space of a couple of weeks, my overview manager is reporting that I've created over 150 effects, around 30 abilities, 16 weapons, multiple units, actors and buttons and all this FROM SCRATCH (I only duplicated actors; never thought I could fill out an empty unit so quickly). I attribute much of this to rigorous planning and I still find myself having to scratch abilities off (because they're too complex for the user or unbalanced) so I'm planning while developing. Admittedly, I've still haven't started working on the terrain or triggers but I'm in no rush as long as my grand project pays off and it rests there among the likes of DoTA.
I'm glad there are people who are hard at work making good, new maps and I still think that if a map is good, it will be played, regardless of Blizzard's system.
Finally, remember to HAVE FUN and never be afraid to learn something new. It helps accelerate the process of making your maps.
I think a lot of people are rushing maps out because they think their idea will get stolen, done before them or they believe that if they wait to long the marketplace will become over saturated. So instead of taking their time they release maps in beta state with a lot of bugs and get negative hype or no play.
Good luck with your map! If you are careful and let people know it exists I think you will do just fine :).
I have nothing against people doing whatever map they want to do. I am just suggesting that adding another tower defense (with absolutely no pre-promotion) to the already saturated market might be a tough sell.
Now, if you have some super unique way of doing it then make sure everybody knows that your TD is super unique and different. If you do that then you can be successful with any map type. The key is in the marketing though.
@Skittles17: Go
For small maps a website is not really needed. But for big projects, having a website can help garner a community before the map even launches. That way you will have enough players on launch day to fill up a couple games and then hopefully it takes off from there.
Also, it NEVER hurts to have a place to send people for more information and it certainly never hurts to have a place to hype your map like crazy. Cluttering up forums like sc2mapsters is not the way to hype a map.
Another thing I see mapmakers failing on is in their map's description. I liken these descriptions to the short descriptions people put up on dating sites. You have to catch the reader within the first few sentences or most people will just move on.
Example of what not to put:
"Simple Tower Defense but with a twist. 2v2 with multiple lanes. Have fun!"
I still think the popularity system allows you to get away with releasing beta maps, something you could never get away with in war3. Because there was no way to update immediately.
For someone like me (I've been prescribed Ritalin or adderall since kindergarten), releasing a half-finished map is the only way I'd get anything released at all.
It's not easy, but if you release your map and play it immediately, and update every few hours, consistently for a week or two, you can get away with it. After each release, play it publically with random people. I never tested versions before releasing publically. This lead to humorous memories well worth the humiliation.
There is never going to be a good solution to this, as with any list with thousands of games, even if you have a perfect popularity system you still have to search through thousands of games.
Personally I think they need to keep a similar popularity system, just adjust how popularity is gained
for example: +1 point Per Player in a map, at 5 minutes, then another point Per Payer at 25 minutes. This would allow bigger/longer maps to compete
Lastly I think they also need a 5 star rating system where each person can choose their rating of a map, This way you can sort the list by rating as well as popularity if you so choose.
Interestingly enough, a map me and my friend collaborated on was designed for 10 people, and managed to hold between page 2/3 for a month. Until we decided we aren't working on it anymore, it pretty much disappeared in the brink of space. The map was underdeveloped even back then.
The reality sometimes hurts Mr. Bounty, specially when it comes from someone you hate using Platform Defense as an example; a map that everyone knows you hate.
I agree that gameplay is more important than popularity. However, what's the point of making an awesome 1 hour rpg if no one will ever play it?
Having done it, not everything has to come out of instant success, bypassing the popularity system is a better route than catering for a specific fringe...
Completely disagree ..... Im thinking you never tried making maps on WC3. Wc3 had a very hard time getting maps to catch on as well. there were 1000's of maps but most of them were only host in small niche groups. That sounds very familiar to what we all ready have. I release my map because well I want to. The fact that its on the bottom of the list means nothing to me, because it basically means nothing.
Secondly Redfox why do you care so much about what to make or not make. IMO you have to want to make something because you want to make it. Not because one thing will have a better change to be "popular" or not. I bet you in a year the maps that are popular right now wont be then (except maybe Nexus Wars.) But yeah you gotta figure the best maps on WC3 had a couple years worth of on and off updates and work on them.
I say if you think you have something fun and interesting, relaease it and see what the feed back you get on it is. Then if you feel like you can make it better. Have fun with your map making. Take pride in a job well done. If you cant handle fourteen year olds flaming the forums about how "broke, terrible, sucky, imbalanced, unfished, unoriginal, you get the point" , then dont make maps in the first place.
@SouLCarveRR: Go
Why did you even bother with that post? Redfox777 hit the nail on the head with his post. If you don't care about your map being played, that's your business. It doesn't detract from his post at all. For people who do care about having their map played, I would recommend reading Redfox777's post.
@SouLCarveRR: Go
My post was directed at the people who care. You know, the people that dream of being game designers but are getting snuffed out because they think their ideas suck due to nobody playing their maps.
There are so many great ideas that are not getting played right now. I absolutely know this has to be the case. Out among the trash are the hidden gems and they will remain hidden because their creators did nothing to promote the maps. This is a shame because the next "DoTA" could be out there.
I want to help people succeed and in this highly competitive market its going to take going the extra mile to get noticed. If you don't care if people play your creation and you only do this for the fun then that's your prerogative.
But I have never met an artist that locks his creations in a closet. ;)
I will say that the day anything stops being fun I quit doing it that will go with my writing, mapmaking, gaming, etc.
@SouLCarveRR: Go
Why do you even release your maps if you don't care if they get played or not? I create maps first and foremost because I enjoy the creation process, but that doesn't mean I want my maps to remain unplayed, and in the current system thats how they will be. The system is clearly broken if people have to resort to things like this to boost their maps initially.
On the other side of things not only does it suck as a mapper but it sucks as a player. I log on to the same 1-2 decent custom games in the first page and anything past that is NEVER played. I must have played at least 50 enjoyable maps in WC3. In SC2, maybe 3 so far. The thing that sucks is I know there are many more out there that must be pretty fun but I just don't have the chance to play them on battle.net
Maps should be given a fair chance for the sake of the mappers and the players. Why complain about people who have issue with the way things are now? It really isn't up to scratch and it shouldn't be too hard for Blizzard to change it.
Wars maps are pretty saturated too.
@SouLCarveRR: Go
In wc3 not a lot of people could host, that's why only mostly niche groups hosted the maps. I don't really agree with redfox on going as far as to make a website, but he was correct to say you shouldn't release the map without a fan base. Cause no one will ever ever see it.
@b0ne123:
What's wrong with Tower Defense.
@Vexal: Go
it's a quote. ask Redfox777
he is saying there are enough TD maps, if you want a popular map, don't try another TD
Care to elaborate? Perhaps you have some good, unseen reason? Making a website sounds like a great idea to me. It certainly has served me well.
I've agreed with pretty much everything else he has said, but this is dumb. Clearly TD is a popular genre on SC2, so why not try and capitalize on that? Of course, if you take the mentality that you aren't capable enough to beat the competition that's a different story.
@Klishu: Go
I think a lot of people are rushing maps out because they think their idea will get stolen, done before them or they believe that if they wait to long the marketplace will become over saturated. So instead of taking their time they release maps in beta state with a lot of bugs and get negative hype or no play.
Good luck with your map! If you are careful and let people know it exists I think you will do just fine :).
@Karawasa: Go
I have nothing against people doing whatever map they want to do. I am just suggesting that adding another tower defense (with absolutely no pre-promotion) to the already saturated market might be a tough sell.
Now, if you have some super unique way of doing it then make sure everybody knows that your TD is super unique and different. If you do that then you can be successful with any map type. The key is in the marketing though.
@Skittles17: Go For small maps a website is not really needed. But for big projects, having a website can help garner a community before the map even launches. That way you will have enough players on launch day to fill up a couple games and then hopefully it takes off from there.
Also, it NEVER hurts to have a place to send people for more information and it certainly never hurts to have a place to hype your map like crazy. Cluttering up forums like sc2mapsters is not the way to hype a map.
Another thing I see mapmakers failing on is in their map's description. I liken these descriptions to the short descriptions people put up on dating sites. You have to catch the reader within the first few sentences or most people will just move on.
Example of what not to put:
"Simple Tower Defense but with a twist. 2v2 with multiple lanes. Have fun!"
YAWN :(
I still think the popularity system allows you to get away with releasing beta maps, something you could never get away with in war3. Because there was no way to update immediately.
For someone like me (I've been prescribed Ritalin or adderall since kindergarten), releasing a half-finished map is the only way I'd get anything released at all.
It's not easy, but if you release your map and play it immediately, and update every few hours, consistently for a week or two, you can get away with it. After each release, play it publically with random people. I never tested versions before releasing publically. This lead to humorous memories well worth the humiliation.
There is never going to be a good solution to this, as with any list with thousands of games, even if you have a perfect popularity system you still have to search through thousands of games.
Personally I think they need to keep a similar popularity system, just adjust how popularity is gained
for example: +1 point Per Player in a map, at 5 minutes, then another point Per Payer at 25 minutes. This would allow bigger/longer maps to compete
Lastly I think they also need a 5 star rating system where each person can choose their rating of a map, This way you can sort the list by rating as well as popularity if you so choose.
Bump. This is important.
Interestingly enough, a map me and my friend collaborated on was designed for 10 people, and managed to hold between page 2/3 for a month. Until we decided we aren't working on it anymore, it pretty much disappeared in the brink of space. The map was underdeveloped even back then.
Bump. Every day this graph is more accurate.
I hate this thread.
The reality sometimes hurts Mr. Bounty, specially when it comes from someone you hate using Platform Defense as an example; a map that everyone knows you hate.
Having done it, not everything has to come out of instant success, bypassing the popularity system is a better route than catering for a specific fringe...
@Redfox777: Go
"Ive never met an artist that closets his work", maybe not (although that goes along defining what an artist is, but hey that's off topic?)
What I have seen plenty of, is people buying artist works' and setting it up in a drawer or closet... that's common and regrettable...