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    posted a message on Desert Strike with BW/WC3/SC2 units
    Quote from TacoManStan: Go

    Lol phew, can't believe I just read that whole thing.

    It is very interesting, I admit.

    Thanks

    Quote from TacoManStan: Go

    However, the fact that (at least NA) SC2 already has a Desert Strike that is IMO perfect already, makes me think that you would be wasting your time. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but think of the past. You made your map. Someone else made Desert Strike, which was your map, but with a couple of twists. That map took off, and yours didn't (as much).

    Agree

    Quote from TacoManStan: Go

    I would try and put a spin on the spin. Try and figure out exactly what makes Desert Strike fun. I have told you my ideas already. But realize that a lot of what you have suggested a lot of people will disagree with.

    Thats why I created these topics here and on SEN. I want to hear other opinions. But also I want to hear arguments for their opinions - thats why I posted my opinions on the "history" comment.

    Quote from TacoManStan: Go

    The most important thing is *don't name it Desert Strike*. No matter how good it is, the Desert Strike that is already there has rooted itself so deep, it isn't going anywhere.

    Ok

    Quote from TacoManStan: Go

    Besides, there is nothing wrong with it, why try and get rid of it?

    The most important reason - I want to make (or if other map maker will make and I will play haha) the map, which will satisfy my needs. The only reason I created this topic - I dont want to waste time, as you said, so I want to know, what other people think about it and will they want to play it. Also, maybe someone will like my ideas and will make the map with some of them.

    Quote from TacoManStan: Go

    As I said before, I would recommend making an entirely new map. Combine some things. Look at some other Tug of War maps for inspiration. You will find what works for you, I should think.

    Also I should say, that I starting to make maps only if I assured in them 100% (and assured 100% that I will find opponents to play). In all 4 my current maps I can find opponetns till today.

    But this map, explained in this topic, is one of the maps, in which I am not assured even in 1%. Thats why a created this topic.

    Also - thanks for the constructive opinion.

    GL

    Posted in: Map Suggestions/Requests
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    posted a message on Desert Strike with BW/WC3/SC2 units

    @TacoManStan: Go

    Lets talk about true Desert Strike history (and about why I prefer DS with conditions I explained above). Please note, that this history is only history from my eyes, so if you want to be added in this comment as a creator of some special version of DS - please post comment. Now I will talk only about "key" maps from my opinion, the maps related to me and the maps which I played most. So let mortal kombat begin:

    2007: The WC3 Castle Fight creators created Castle Fight (I dont know exact year, but as I remember - it was 2007)

    July 2008: My friend showed me Castle Fight gameplay in WC3 and I decided to make it in BW

    August 2008: first release of Castle Fight in BW by me. I created next idea:

    group spawn in a single place

    gas=money (faster income)

    some buildings=specials

    nuke (boom in DS)=civillians

    bunkers+sunkens+cannons=attackers

    special spawn triggers by giving buildings to neutrals and back and spawning units in "pool" (spawn buffer)

    If you want - you can download and check my BW Castle Fight there: http://theleo-ua.livejournal.com/

    Just host it on any server (I tried iccup, uswest, useast) and some people will join approximately in 1 minute.

    Please note, that first version of Castle fight had some different gameplay (in comparison to the last 7.31 version).

    October (or November) 2008: NudeRaider played my BW Castle Fight, and created first Desert Strike on the planet. Here is the link to the latest offficial NudeRaider's Desert Strike: http://www.staredit.net/?file=2283

    You can found defiler with name "idea: theleo_ua" in the center of this map. Also the forces named as "remake of CASTLE FIGHT".

    And this map became most popular map in BW servers in 2008-2010. Any time you connect to batlle net (from November 2008 to December 2010), and press join - you will see "Desert Strike" as hosted game. Some people with NAT internet (they can host games, but no one can join to them) hosted games with names like "CREATE DESERT STRIKE PLZ!!!".

    (please note that when I talk about popularity - I mean "Desert Strike" in general. NudeRaider's one was popular before the Queens one appear, then Queens one become most popular).

    I really could not beleive, that my Castle Fight ideas will be turned (by NudeRaider) to Desert Strike - the most popular map (imho) of 2008/2009/2010! I should say big thanks to WC3 Castle Fight map makers, because precisely their map punched my brain to create SC version of Castle Fight in August 2008. Maybe they will create Castle Fight for SC2 in future. Also thanks to NudeRaier for playing my map in Autumn 2008 and creating the remake of it - Desert Strike:)

    Also I should say that Nuderaider's DS meet most of conditions, described above.

    But lets continue:

    Spring (as I remember - it was spring) 2009: Queen-Gambit played NudeRaider's DS and decided to create a Queen one. Here is the example of Queen-like DS: http://www.staredit.net/topic/11001/0/

    As I know - Queen-Gambit just take NudeRaiders DS, and changed landscape, balance, some triggers, fixed some bugs, added diagonal battle roads (instead of horisontal), changed forces name to "by NudeRaider / modified by Queen-Gambit" and changed critter's name from "idea: theleo_ua" to "Queen-Gambit" and "Clan WA - Hacking Losers" (btw - I dont know, who is clan WA, but it is really awesome to be as loosers in most popular BW map:) ). Also Queen-Gambit added "noob-friendly" features to the map: isolated platforms, silos, cannons near Fortess etc.

    The most fun thing was that Queen's version became most popular DS (even more popular than NudeRaider's one). Every time I hosted Nuderaider's one, people said "host queen" or "host night". Another fun thing was, that most people know DS only as a Queen version, and even does not know it's mother (BW Castle Fight) and father (NudeRaider's DS).

    June 2010: Devourer ported NudeRaider's DS to SC2: http://www.staredit.net/topic/11324/ But due to SC2 battlenet 2.0 map system it is very hard to find opponents to play it.

    This is the end of the history, and now lets talk about my playing experience with these maps:

    1) Castle Fight 7.31.

    Example in BW: http://theleo-ua.livejournal.com/

    Example in WC3:

    This map (I mean BW version) is less balanced, than DS, but for me it is more fun to play Castle Fight, instead of DS. DS is truly balanced, but it became boring after 3-5 games (and next 3-5 games I want to play only after a month or later).

    Tha main diffenrence in comparison to DS: invulnerable workers with damage 0, only 1 worker at a time, less units (1 zergling x8 power instead of 8 zerglings), so less lags, different spells, buildings/units costs and properties, the map is 2x smaller (64x64) and the units spawned for all players at a time (not like player 1 units, after 45 seconds - player 2 units and so on). So if one player left the game - his teammate will receive all his buidings (except gas) and will have faster income.

    2) Nuderaider's DS 1.2.4

    Example in BW: http://www.staredit.net/?file=2283

    Example in SC2: http://www.staredit.net/topic/11324/

    Pretty balanced (much better balanced than Castle fight), has horizontal battle line (and only single line), it is possible to move to enemy base (and attack it) with drones, it is possible (for cpu) to attack human's bases by cpu units (of course it happen very rarely - cpu need A LOT of units for this).

    Every player has worker limit 3 (maximum 3 workers per player). The worker limit at enemy base is also 3 (if 9 workers will come to enemy base - 6 of them will be removed, and only 3 of them will left at the enemy base).

    3) Queen's DS

    Example in BW: http://www.staredit.net/topic/11001/0/

    Example in SC2:

    Imho it balanced even better than Nuderaider's one (I mean BW versions), because of fixing of unit's AI and a lot of cost/properties changes. But - there is some buts:

    a) Diagonal battle lines b) Silos c) Isolated platforms

    I played a lot of different Queen versions (slow, fast, night), and should say, that this versions are good (expecially if we talk about balance and unit AI), but it is much better, if you have horisontal battle lines (especially for my mind - it really annoying for me to watch diagonal wars - I prefer to watch horisontal wars. Imagine, that your monitor rorating by 45 degrees, for understand, what I mean), no silos and no isolated platforms. Silos is bad idea imho because you loosing original map concept with single building. Same about cannons near main buiding - why first zerglings should be killed?

    But lets talk about most important thing - isolated platforms:

    A) The late game's gameplay become a "spell wars". Because even 500 units on the map cannot kill your base (I mean human's bases - not Fortress), so you can wait for spell. These spell wars annoying imho.

    B) Fun with rushing enemies with drones

    C) Special strategies with drone or cannon rushing (for example if enemy team goes fast gas). Also special tactics like "save 1000 minerals, and only after this build gas, because if you will be rushed after this - you can build 3 drones for defence".

    D) Cannon wars. Permanent thoughts about defence.

    E) Forcing enemy team to waste boom if he cannot counter your drone rush.

    F) Unit control skills (with workers).

    So we will not have this ABCDEF fun with isolated platforms.

    4) Devourer's DS

    Example in BW: http://www.staredit.net/?file=2283

    Example in SC2: http://www.staredit.net/topic/11324/

    Never played it due to SC2 battlenet 2.0 map system (it is very hard to find opponents to play it), so cannot say anything.

    Your opinion? Are you found something new or interesting in this post?

    Posted in: Map Suggestions/Requests
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    posted a message on Desert Strike with BW/WC3/SC2 units
    Quote from TacoManStan: Go

    @theleoua: Go

    Didn't actually watch the whole thing so I don't know how good the review is, but yeah, it is the right game and the most recent version.

    Watched this video: this DS does not meet 99% of my criterias:)

    Posted in: Map Suggestions/Requests
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    posted a message on Desert Strike with BW/WC3/SC2 units
    Quote from TacoManStan: Go

    but the Desert Strike on NA is doing quite well already, and I personally really enjoy it. I'm not sure about the one on EU though.

    Do you have the links to youtube videos (or any information/screenshots) of this North American's Desert Strike ?

    Quote from TacoManStan: Go

    Labeling it as Desert Strike will turn people off, as the original has already taken the role as "the Desert Strike" map.

    Ok:)

    Posted in: Map Suggestions/Requests
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    posted a message on Desert Strike with BW/WC3/SC2 units

    This map idea is about mix of Castle Fight for WC3 and Desert Strike for SC1.

    Lets imagine Desert Strike map (like this for example http://www.staredit.net/topic/11324/ ) with next races:

    SC1 zerg, SC1 protoss, SC1 terran, SC2 zerg, SC2 protoss, SC2 terran, Hybrid (contains of hybrids from SC2 singleplayer and heroes like Kerrigan), Human, Orc, Undead, NightElf, Naga (contains of Naga heroes from WC3 singleplayer, and maybe multiplayer heroes of Human, Orc, Undead and Nightelves).

    All SC1 races contains of BW multiplayer units (with BW spells, for example EMP for Science Vessel). All SC2 races (except Hybrid) contains of SC2 multiplayer units. All WC3 races (except Naga) contains of all WC3 multiplayer units, except heroes (only Naga contain Heroes).

    The landscape can be like this http://www.staredit.net/topic/11324/ but with some exceptions: left part of map can be with "WC3 jungle theme", and will have "Castle" as main building of the team. Right part of map can be with "BW desert theme" (like this http://www.staredit.net/?file=2283 ), and will have "Desert Fortress" as main building of the team.

    Imho best Desret Strike can be with next conditions:

    1) Only horizontal battle road (both Fortresses situated on the same horisontal line, like in Nexus Wars). Example here: http://www.staredit.net/topic/11324/

    2) No upgrades. All upgrades must be immediately researched at the start of the game. The only thing, what human players must do, is to choose correct buildings to build, choose when to build gas (treasure), and choose when to attack enemy by workers and when to nuke (boom). Boom, by the way, should affect half of the map (as in original Desert Strike).

    3) Only gas and treasure buldings adding additional income to players. No "Nexus Wars" things like "all buildings give income, but pylons give more income". Also, income rate must be "X minerals per 1 second" (NOT "X mineals per 45 seconds", like in Nexus Wars).

    4) No supply limits (like in Nexus Wars). The quantity of spawning units must be unlimited. If you afraid lags - make "1 Zergling x8 power" instead of "8 zerglings", but supply limit is really sux imho.

    5) No manual unit control (like heroes in Nexus Wars). The human players must control only their workers, and nothing else! Even cannons must be given to cpu imho (after player built it).

    6) Only one battle "road" (like this: http://www.staredit.net/topic/11324/ ). No additional roads, like in Nexus Wars. And remember step 1: only horizontal roads (no diagonal or vertical ones).

    7) No isolated platforms (isolated platform mean that CPU and enemy human's workers cannot attack human's bases). Imho CPU units and enemy human's workers must have possibility to attack enemy base or build cannon near enemy base, because not interesting to play otherwise.

    8 ) CPU units must spawn instead of autobuilding in buldings. If human player have 5 barracks - then 5 marines (or 10 marines, depending on balance conditions) must be spawned exactly at 0:00 timer and exactly near Castle/Fortress (for example behind the Fortress). Human players must NOT to choose WHERE to build - they only must choose WHAT and WHEN to build.

    9) The spawn (as we told in step 8 ) must be for one player at a time. For example when timer goes 0:00 for a first time - units will spawn accordingly to buildings of player 1, when timer goes 0:00 for a second time - units will spawn accordingly to buildings of player 2 and so on. This will make balance, if someone will left the game.

    10) SC1 and SC2 races can have spells like "mind control from original Desert Strike", but WC3 races can have spells like "spawn hero, which will cast uber spell when attacked". This heroes of course must be from original WC3 multiplayer.

    11) The Hybrid's buildings can be "Dark" ones from SC2 editor (they were for example in 2nd protoss mission in SC2 singleplayer).

    12) No silos! No additional buildings! Only one main building per team.

    13) No mineral income bonuses for kills! Any unit kills must NOT give any bonuses.

    The main questions:

    A) Is it possible to add WC3 units to SC2 map? If yes - is it hard, what influence to map size (in MB) and what disadvantages? I mean "full" unit transfer from WC3, even with spells, portraits and sounds.

    B) Do you want to play this map? What do you think - will someone else play this map? Will this map become popular?

    C) Is it possible to use BW unit sprites in SC2 for "full" unit transfer from SC1 to SC2? What about unit portraits and sounds? Is it possible to handle "BW 2D SMK portraits" in SC2 engine?

    D) If you agree with idea about "different SC1 and SC2 races" - what thoughts you have about it? I mean, that most of the units are same, so we can make something like "SC2 protoss will have archon and will not have high templar, and SC1 protoss will not have archon and will have high templar". Or we can dont care of this, and the only difference between SC1 and SC2 races will be "BW-only units like reaver" ans "SC2-only units like colossus". Also the difference between SC1 and SC2 races can be in spells like "mind control 50% of the map" and so on.

    Also I think that "SC1" units must be as closer as possible to real BW units, for example Terran Science Vessel must have "defensive matrix, EMP and Irradiate" (of course it can have additional nano-repair spell, which make it useful). Imho easiest way to make this is to use existing spells like "ghost's EMP one" and "battlecruiser's defensive matrix one from SC2 singleplayer".

    Another thing - imho SC1 units must even shoot as real BW units, for example SC1 Battlecruiser's attack must be as waith's ground attack (instead of SC2 Battlecruiser's attacks).

    Step D is also about WC3 units of course:)

    The name of this map can be "Castle Fight vs Desert Strike" or similar.

    Questions? Your opinion?

    Posted in: Map Suggestions/Requests
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