"make AI for both heroes, and let them play the game while you watch"
That's the idea yes, the dream really :D i have since i started on the idea, .. but again i wanted an open city where players have to "discover" the map and i'm not sure how to do that (beyond thinking that making an ai that would "organically" go to the spots the players would is possible etc.. far long ahead (unseen yet) and frigging hard)..
.. still the challenge alone is worth it <3
"all data based. Validators, requirements, target sorts, idle commands."
Yeah.. it reminds me of mockster's poll on "which part of the editor you hate" and also the ensuing resulting posting <3:D
i love the data editor.. just a pain to remember everything of every layer of every link involved ... once you figured stuff out (not to mention the still ever present "any blizz homebase patch could change stuff" you never thought they would or never knew existed ..etc)
.. but in any case, 100 % agreed.. anything worth doing HAS to be in data "hardcoded" .. but i won't be able to go veryu far (because of my resolve to do something else that does not make it an imperative for my ultimate goal: movies)
The things you can do with what is there already is so potent it is jarring and i think basically unheard of before (no one's ever corrected me on that :D .. that galaxy is a prize fighter .. something of an unique "x" live right now.)
...
Sort of really sad that there are not more peeps joining in this very thread.. f ck me i must be old to be sad/surprised about it :]
...
Just one part where i disagree :D
"need to make a good game and advertise it well before players are interested"
i think it pretty obvious that without networking .. one's map may be awesome.. no one will see it :(
.. and a map without testers is like an ability without the graphic displays.. almost nothing! Not that i mind really.. :D i'm learning anything / everything through the maps i make in order to make movie scenes (which are 100% less hard to do since it isn't supposed to be playable.. just played :D
.. to make games with a tool to learn the tools .. f cken THE dream :P
i fully realize that my case does not really call for what can be referred to as an ai, but i do so love the parallels though
i wanted to find people to move the units around according to a script (a movie) and now i am trying to do it through the engine itself !
what a life :D
my original map idea is an adventure map: 2 or more players selecting a hero each and playing out an adventure in a multiplayer setting (needless to say i quickly cut it down to a story only involving 2 players/heroes because of my low skill)
.. right away my map project hit a road block..
no players interested .. bad networking .. etc ..
Simply because i wanted the story to unfold .. it required 2 players and did not work without a second one..
.. so i tried to add triggers to simulate a player (but we do agree that it is all fake.. we don't make it "think" we just add things for the engine to do :D that would eventually "suitably" replace a player)
when i started trying to do that i failed miserably :D
So, for now, i'm making map bosses to understand stuff and how i can develop a way to simulate a player for my map specifically (as you pointed out earlier :) ) .. a way to make my story unfold when someone plays it alone and make it possible to involve more heroes that would be "active" in my story even if there are no players to "play" them.
.. a way that is "fair" as i believe is required (right now as i said earlier, if i do make the engine execute orders for a hero to compete with a player, the player will always lose)
The real roadblock for me is that most stuff i come up with (via triggers or rarely data) seem to take me further...
For instance "make the map boss" go look for the player's assets/hero whatever.. make it attack it when the hero is not there .. or making map bosses hide/survive.. etc/ sort of ideas i started on that led me to other ideas .. never allowing for enough testing because you want to see the next stage right away or the "new" idea you got from your previous idea/work/result is parasiting every other thought process...
For instance, i used the brood war weapon behavior etc to make a Legion death squad .. and boy am i having fun / hardship to work to test/adjust its power
(just changing range/life time / broodling to a tosh ..)
i mean .. just using the blizzard stuff ready made worked beyond anything i thought possible in such a short time of "r&d" invested on it (once you have sort of figured out all data related to the whole shabang) .. and that produced so many ideas coming out of just a lil experimentation.. "more ideas coming out than results" if that makes any sense?
<3 (testament to the quality/quantity of assets present in "default" blizzard assets)!
Furthermore i can't seem to get these ideas to be of any other difficulty level than lethal for "beginner" players discovering my maps.
Everyone i play with .. seems to require incremental tutoring into how the game works (how to use the hero/kite / run/ring around the rosie / etc)
and seem to expect to get this in under 5 minutes (counting the load screen time kappa )
While i don't mind, (you called it "running", hope i get there once at least :D ) i could change my ideas to "support" that sort of requirement .. i don't see doing so as only/purely something that would be good for the map/game/product i wish to do.
Of course you can have weaker map bosses do the trick .. then send the real lethal ones .. but again that just seems like fluff i don't want.
Once you start beyond the "default" "melee" ai (which is huge already) .. i feel you are consciously or not planning or even "doomed" to end up making a hard game.
"make AI for both heroes, and let them play the game while you watch"
That's the idea yes, the dream really :D i have since i started on the idea, .. but again i wanted an open city where players have to "discover" the map and i'm not sure how to do that (beyond thinking that making an ai that would "organically" go to the spots the players would is possible etc.. far long ahead (unseen yet) and frigging hard)..
.. still the challenge alone is worth it <3
"all data based. Validators, requirements, target sorts, idle commands."
Yeah.. it reminds me of mockster's poll on "which part of the editor you hate" and also the ensuing resulting posting <3 :D
i love the data editor.. just a pain to remember everything of every layer of every link involved ... once you figured stuff out (not to mention the still ever present "any blizz homebase patch could change stuff" you never thought they would or never knew existed ..etc)
.. but in any case, 100 % agreed.. anything worth doing HAS to be in data "hardcoded" .. but i won't be able to go veryu far (because of my resolve to do something else that does not make it an imperative for my ultimate goal: movies)
The things you can do with what is there already is so potent it is jarring and i think basically unheard of before (no one's ever corrected me on that :D .. that galaxy is a prize fighter .. something of an unique "x" live right now.)
...
Sort of really sad that there are not more peeps joining in this very thread.. f ck me i must be old to be sad/surprised about it :]
...
Just one part where i disagree :D
"need to make a good game and advertise it well before players are interested"
i think it pretty obvious that without networking .. one's map may be awesome.. no one will see it :(
.. and a map without testers is like an ability without the graphic displays.. almost nothing! Not that i mind really.. :D i'm learning anything / everything through the maps i make in order to make movie scenes (which are 100% less hard to do since it isn't supposed to be playable.. just played :D
.. to make games with a tool to learn the tools .. f cken THE dream :P
i fully realize that my case does not really call for what can be referred to as an ai, but i do so love the parallels though
i wanted to find people to move the units around according to a script (a movie) and now i am trying to do it through the engine itself ! what a life :D
my original map idea is an adventure map: 2 or more players selecting a hero each and playing out an adventure in a multiplayer setting (needless to say i quickly cut it down to a story only involving 2 players/heroes because of my low skill)
.. right away my map project hit a road block..
no players interested .. bad networking .. etc ..
Simply because i wanted the story to unfold .. it required 2 players and did not work without a second one..
.. so i tried to add triggers to simulate a player (but we do agree that it is all fake.. we don't make it "think" we just add things for the engine to do :D that would eventually "suitably" replace a player)
when i started trying to do that i failed miserably :D
So, for now, i'm making map bosses to understand stuff and how i can develop a way to simulate a player for my map specifically (as you pointed out earlier :) ) .. a way to make my story unfold when someone plays it alone and make it possible to involve more heroes that would be "active" in my story even if there are no players to "play" them.
.. a way that is "fair" as i believe is required (right now as i said earlier, if i do make the engine execute orders for a hero to compete with a player, the player will always lose)
Sorry if i'm off topic :/
The real roadblock for me is that most stuff i come up with (via triggers or rarely data) seem to take me further...
For instance "make the map boss" go look for the player's assets/hero whatever.. make it attack it when the hero is not there .. or making map bosses hide/survive.. etc/ sort of ideas i started on that led me to other ideas .. never allowing for enough testing because you want to see the next stage right away or the "new" idea you got from your previous idea/work/result is parasiting every other thought process...
For instance, i used the brood war weapon behavior etc to make a Legion death squad .. and boy am i having fun / hardship to work to test/adjust its power
(just changing range/life time / broodling to a tosh ..)
i mean .. just using the blizzard stuff ready made worked beyond anything i thought possible in such a short time of "r&d" invested on it (once you have sort of figured out all data related to the whole shabang) .. and that produced so many ideas coming out of just a lil experimentation.. "more ideas coming out than results" if that makes any sense?
<3 (testament to the quality/quantity of assets present in "default" blizzard assets)!
Furthermore i can't seem to get these ideas to be of any other difficulty level than lethal for "beginner" players discovering my maps.
Everyone i play with .. seems to require incremental tutoring into how the game works (how to use the hero/kite / run/ring around the rosie / etc)
and seem to expect to get this in under 5 minutes (counting the load screen time kappa )
While i don't mind, (you called it "running", hope i get there once at least :D ) i could change my ideas to "support" that sort of requirement .. i don't see doing so as only/purely something that would be good for the map/game/product i wish to do.
Of course you can have weaker map bosses do the trick .. then send the real lethal ones .. but again that just seems like fluff i don't want.
Once you start beyond the "default" "melee" ai (which is huge already) .. i feel you are consciously or not planning or even "doomed" to end up making a hard game.
i like hard games, maybe that s the problem :D