Aside from being spared from the fires and tortures of (perhaps brutal porn) of hell.
Kidding aside, does anyone know what Salvation really means?
The Zizz,
a good question would be, "why do we see such things as wicked?"
Also, Satan will definitely not torment anyone. He'll be tormented with the rest of the souls. I don't think Satan tormenting people is anywhere in the Gospels.
Grad, good points there. But what if God's "unchanging" nature means like a sort of personality. Surely, if a person changes his mind doesn't mean he's a completely different person right?
Just a thought.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
You make a good point. And this is mostly why I think Science at the moment is so puffed-up. It has this image of "we know everything" but in reality it knows very little.
For this reason also, I think there is so much "looking up to" granted to science by many people, that whatever "science" is supposedly saying people immediately attribute it as truth, and an absolute, infallible truth so that Science and their public figures seem to look like a cult.
Jesus also seems to have something to say about Moses and his laws, Grad.
It seems that as it were, there are no answers to why the God of Moses spoke of those things and became the driving force of the Jews to carve a path of carnage. It is hinted at somewhere though (I can't remember where) that those who spoke to Moses were "mediators" other than God himself.
Also, Paul in his letters addressed this question way back.
Maybe, God did change his mind. It seems to be very likely, given the evidence. In principle too, like Pharaoh, God chooses who gets what. But it was only in the new Covenant that man was set free from being treated as "slaves" but rather "friends". This is out from the mouth of Jesus himself.
The New Covenant (new testament) itself shows as evidence that God has "changed his mind", IMO.
God changing his mind is not new. He did it for Abraham, and for Nineveh.
Worship in its core value creates adherence to set of principles which a deity embodies. Worshiping Baal leads to child sacrifice which then causes many adverse sociological and psychological affects.
The Worship of the "I AM" seems very abstract. "Who are you?" is thrown at God, and he answers "I AM". This being that "is as he wills at any given time, every time, any time, throughout time, and is "I AM" before, now, and ever, seems to create an effect of a mirror.
This in part is why I say, we cannot truly know the "way" until we know ourselves truly, which in part or whole a direct effect of true worship of the invisible and great "he is" or as he would say as a response to the question "who are you", the "I AM".
I think...
So, those who worship Jesus Christ must know three general scopes of his "principles" shown in the three general aspects of his life on earth. (Partly I think this is the reason why he had to "come into the world")
1. When he was alive and what he embodied. I personally see a man who tries his best to be in a world, as he is, and live according to his convictions and "calling" or purpose. Ex. Is your neighbor a musician? Well, he must do music according to his gifts.
2. When in persecution he held to his truth, and forgives, and claim not any certainty but ask his father to do as he will with his spirit.
3. in his resurrected self he teaches love.
There are many things he spoke about while he was alive, and it is hinted at in the letters while he was in his ressurected self. It was said that not all books in the world at that time could contain everything he had said if they wrote it down.
In any case, if Christians are really Christians, I think they should look at the Christ and hear what he has to say. Religions are what second hand or generations of followers create as dogmas and truths for their slaves.
True disciples follow not disciples (blind following blind) but their true and only teacher. Jesus himself faced Religion in his life on earth, and had specific response to it saying something like the one in the parenthesis.
More research is needed indeed. And maybe in time, we of our current age can finally understand why we make religions. Or maybe we already do, yet we must for some purpose. To what end is the question, and most would say, "To avoid hell, and be in eternal bliss". A terrible thing to embrace religion for. Or is it?
Late, but would like to add my thoughts regarding the O.P.'s question.
Religion. I tend to not like collectivism, or whatever that is called, where everyone wears a uniform and is labeled accordingly. So I refuse to accept any and all sorts of religion as a definitive guide to life.
I see them as "peep holes" into life. A very narrow perspective, often incomplete, and doesn't give much answers. Some religions keep us busy with things; enables people to do one thing; disables people to certain things; and a lot of affects.
I think that as adults it is our obligation to seek for "the truth" but even so, there isn't really much purpose rather than either to remove certain feelings and thoughts, or to stimulate them.
Science has become a sort of Religion. It is supposed to end with a question, and are supposed to be geared towards useful things which are still in themselves "incomplete" and yet, as of late Science has since seemed "certain" of things.
It seems that whatever man can get their hands on and think about, they tend to, in their limited life span, create a reality in their minds upon which to hold on to and be assured with.
Religion to me shows humanity's insecurities. I say this because most religions, if you look at them from a separate view, is just a search for approval.
There are things that we know are good for us, things we know are bad, and many things we are still unsure of. I think, in my humble opinion, that whatever the case, even if the creator himself would manifest himself, mankind will never be content. Humanity will always be seeking approval so long as humanity cannot outgrow its incapacity to harmonize.
And why is harmony important? Maybe it's not. Maybe both harmony and dissonance are essential, only that the extremes and their outcomes can be absorbed/taken without cost. But then again, why do we see things as costs and benefits? Is it because of the masses and their common cognitive responses of desires vs. fears as basis? What if most people are neurotics? What will be good in that civilization? What is bad? What if we are immortals, what would be good? What would be bad? What if our life spans were only 10 years? Etc, etc.
Indeed, religion can be a tricky subject, unless we surpass our current capacities of perception, cognition, and understanding. It is very bias, and thus I tend to avoid following just one path. I'd like to know all forms of Religions and generally human systems see what they believe.
Hell, even society itself is a sort of religion. Culture is a religion to me. (You know what I mean)
To close, I have to say, we cannot just believe what we want, and neither should we blindly believe what is thrown at us. This seems to be where I am at present.
Do I believe in a "creator God"? Yes I do. But I do not believe what authority figures say about this God. Either scientists or anyone. I even do not believe immediately direct experience.
All I know is that we humans seek for happiness, but then again, this concept is so subjective that drawing the line can sometimes be difficult and is like writing on the sand.
Edit:
I theorize that Religions are built as a guide and school (or indoctrination system) to setup mankind to it's highest potential for happiness in being and also in deed (which in turn feed itself and create a system where happiness/satisfaction/bliss is easy to achieve).
I also believe(?) that humans have a certain "programming" such that if we are existing in accord with this "programming" or "way" ( or state/processes of existence) in our minds and thus inner drives we can reach "better" lives.
An example would be that extreme poverty in a lifeless land can be disastrous. Though we can survive, we will not be able to reach higher things or enjoy certain things, and/or enjoy things in a certain way.
Btw, what is "Salvation"?
Aside from being spared from the fires and tortures of (perhaps brutal porn) of hell.
Kidding aside, does anyone know what Salvation really means?
The Zizz,
a good question would be, "why do we see such things as wicked?"
Also, Satan will definitely not torment anyone. He'll be tormented with the rest of the souls. I don't think Satan tormenting people is anywhere in the Gospels.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Grad, good points there. But what if God's "unchanging" nature means like a sort of personality. Surely, if a person changes his mind doesn't mean he's a completely different person right?
Just a thought.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
tdhsst,
You make a good point. And this is mostly why I think Science at the moment is so puffed-up. It has this image of "we know everything" but in reality it knows very little.
For this reason also, I think there is so much "looking up to" granted to science by many people, that whatever "science" is supposedly saying people immediately attribute it as truth, and an absolute, infallible truth so that Science and their public figures seem to look like a cult.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Jesus also seems to have something to say about Moses and his laws, Grad.
It seems that as it were, there are no answers to why the God of Moses spoke of those things and became the driving force of the Jews to carve a path of carnage. It is hinted at somewhere though (I can't remember where) that those who spoke to Moses were "mediators" other than God himself.
Also, Paul in his letters addressed this question way back.
Maybe, God did change his mind. It seems to be very likely, given the evidence. In principle too, like Pharaoh, God chooses who gets what. But it was only in the new Covenant that man was set free from being treated as "slaves" but rather "friends". This is out from the mouth of Jesus himself.
The New Covenant (new testament) itself shows as evidence that God has "changed his mind", IMO.
God changing his mind is not new. He did it for Abraham, and for Nineveh.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Worship in its core value creates adherence to set of principles which a deity embodies. Worshiping Baal leads to child sacrifice which then causes many adverse sociological and psychological affects.
The Worship of the "I AM" seems very abstract. "Who are you?" is thrown at God, and he answers "I AM". This being that "is as he wills at any given time, every time, any time, throughout time, and is "I AM" before, now, and ever, seems to create an effect of a mirror.
This in part is why I say, we cannot truly know the "way" until we know ourselves truly, which in part or whole a direct effect of true worship of the invisible and great "he is" or as he would say as a response to the question "who are you", the "I AM".
I think...
So, those who worship Jesus Christ must know three general scopes of his "principles" shown in the three general aspects of his life on earth. (Partly I think this is the reason why he had to "come into the world")
1. When he was alive and what he embodied. I personally see a man who tries his best to be in a world, as he is, and live according to his convictions and "calling" or purpose. Ex. Is your neighbor a musician? Well, he must do music according to his gifts.
2. When in persecution he held to his truth, and forgives, and claim not any certainty but ask his father to do as he will with his spirit.
3. in his resurrected self he teaches love.
There are many things he spoke about while he was alive, and it is hinted at in the letters while he was in his ressurected self. It was said that not all books in the world at that time could contain everything he had said if they wrote it down.
In any case, if Christians are really Christians, I think they should look at the Christ and hear what he has to say. Religions are what second hand or generations of followers create as dogmas and truths for their slaves.
True disciples follow not disciples (blind following blind) but their true and only teacher. Jesus himself faced Religion in his life on earth, and had specific response to it saying something like the one in the parenthesis.
More research is needed indeed. And maybe in time, we of our current age can finally understand why we make religions. Or maybe we already do, yet we must for some purpose. To what end is the question, and most would say, "To avoid hell, and be in eternal bliss". A terrible thing to embrace religion for. Or is it?
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Late, but would like to add my thoughts regarding the O.P.'s question.
Religion. I tend to not like collectivism, or whatever that is called, where everyone wears a uniform and is labeled accordingly. So I refuse to accept any and all sorts of religion as a definitive guide to life.
I see them as "peep holes" into life. A very narrow perspective, often incomplete, and doesn't give much answers. Some religions keep us busy with things; enables people to do one thing; disables people to certain things; and a lot of affects.
I think that as adults it is our obligation to seek for "the truth" but even so, there isn't really much purpose rather than either to remove certain feelings and thoughts, or to stimulate them.
Science has become a sort of Religion. It is supposed to end with a question, and are supposed to be geared towards useful things which are still in themselves "incomplete" and yet, as of late Science has since seemed "certain" of things.
It seems that whatever man can get their hands on and think about, they tend to, in their limited life span, create a reality in their minds upon which to hold on to and be assured with.
Religion to me shows humanity's insecurities. I say this because most religions, if you look at them from a separate view, is just a search for approval.
There are things that we know are good for us, things we know are bad, and many things we are still unsure of. I think, in my humble opinion, that whatever the case, even if the creator himself would manifest himself, mankind will never be content. Humanity will always be seeking approval so long as humanity cannot outgrow its incapacity to harmonize.
And why is harmony important? Maybe it's not. Maybe both harmony and dissonance are essential, only that the extremes and their outcomes can be absorbed/taken without cost. But then again, why do we see things as costs and benefits? Is it because of the masses and their common cognitive responses of desires vs. fears as basis? What if most people are neurotics? What will be good in that civilization? What is bad? What if we are immortals, what would be good? What would be bad? What if our life spans were only 10 years? Etc, etc.
Indeed, religion can be a tricky subject, unless we surpass our current capacities of perception, cognition, and understanding. It is very bias, and thus I tend to avoid following just one path. I'd like to know all forms of Religions and generally human systems see what they believe.
Hell, even society itself is a sort of religion. Culture is a religion to me. (You know what I mean)
To close, I have to say, we cannot just believe what we want, and neither should we blindly believe what is thrown at us. This seems to be where I am at present.
Do I believe in a "creator God"? Yes I do. But I do not believe what authority figures say about this God. Either scientists or anyone. I even do not believe immediately direct experience.
All I know is that we humans seek for happiness, but then again, this concept is so subjective that drawing the line can sometimes be difficult and is like writing on the sand.
Edit:
I theorize that Religions are built as a guide and school (or indoctrination system) to setup mankind to it's highest potential for happiness in being and also in deed (which in turn feed itself and create a system where happiness/satisfaction/bliss is easy to achieve).
I also believe(?) that humans have a certain "programming" such that if we are existing in accord with this "programming" or "way" ( or state/processes of existence) in our minds and thus inner drives we can reach "better" lives.
An example would be that extreme poverty in a lifeless land can be disastrous. Though we can survive, we will not be able to reach higher things or enjoy certain things, and/or enjoy things in a certain way.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.