SC2Mapster

I hope you guys realize that most Narcissist love to high-jack religion. Just saying. It makes me wonder how could a message of freedom become a system based on oppression.

I hear that at the start of one particular religion today (wont mention because they're quite sensitive, but you know what I mean) it was rather somewhat close to helping the poor kind of deal.

I also just came to a thought, "Is it possible for people to adapt into/evolve into someone that just couldn't take seeing happy, care-free, balanced individuals?"

(I jumped to dealing with this thing and more into this line since I find it more important to stop the false prophets than the God)

You see, we can have a good God in the future, if we really do have the God-gene, a God that sends rain to both the good and evil, who makes the sun shine on everyone.

Thanks for the reply there Eiviyn. And Mudz, thanks for your ideas as well.

Very interesting how we and the official debaters on this subject somewhat take on the same form or modes of being.

Mr. Kaku said, in a hundred years we'd still be arguing this thing. He uses his own theory and took the stance of a theist mindset to show an example of how people can and will be able to argue about this subject to infinity. I believe he makes a good point.

Mark 11:25 “And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

Grad, what you show there in your interpretation of the words has a point. People misquote things, and when a mob has come to believe that women wearing jeans is damnable to hell, there's clearly a problem. I forgot what its called but it's a problem of theology with which many things come up that become contentious, this is why the core of the message must always be established prior to any dissection. It's a huge undertaking to be a preacher, and must not be taken lightly. Afterall, Gangnam style spread like wildfire for some reason other than the lyrics I'm sure.

Intent drives the message, ergo, we have so many denominations. You make a good point there.

Eiviyn, I don't know much about the world of Biology but this seems interesting. What are your thoughts on this:

It speaks about irreducible complexity.

1 Corinthians 13:7-8

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Psalm 63:3-4

Because your steadfast love is better than life, my lips will praise you. So I will bless you as long as I live; in your name I will lift up my hands.

Ephesians 2:4-7

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

True. I agree with that. It's a play of words actually. What is says is a cognitive response saying, "give us something that will totally remove all our proofs of the existence of God without calling us insane/stupid." From here, if you agree, let's take their so called proof seriously. Let's assume that we ourselves accept that in some way this could lead them to believe what they believe.

You see, calling people stupid or plain silly to rail them off their track is simply just like saying, "If you don't believe in my God you will go to hell." It's just not very productive.

Now, if that's not clear enough, let me put it this way:

A man sees in the desert an oasis, and tells his fellow, "dude, I know there's an oasis up ahead" the other guy says, "well, bro, that's a good story."

Now, assuming the default is unknown that there is or is not really an oasis, given that they both have no idea where they are exactly in the desert or what planet they're on (and let's not go into the details of the oasis, just that an oasis because both of them then will assume defaults on what an oasis is or lack of), and they actually have theories where they are but they generally don't agree.

Now, how would this other guy who doesn't see the oasis convince his friend to not go into the direction of his oasis?

Something non-theists should look into is that theist attribute everything visible to the invisible God. "If you cannot love your brother whom you see, how can you love God whom you do not see?" or something like that. (Taking the bible as an example because this seems to be more popular in our countries where we are)

This means, some theists actually know their God is invisible, and would say, "well, you are an evidence of God."

But if I don't agree that what is visible is a proof of the invisible creator, then boom, a chasm is born. Right? So that direction is, I think, totally not going to lead anywhere. [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]

Here's a question thrown:

Is it possible to create in a lab with the proper conditions a single celled organism and allow it to create 3 or more types of other forms and eventually distinct DNA configurations (or forms of life) without using already existing parts from organic things?

A lot of assumptions need to be cleared, I admit, in order to properly simulate this and even make it happen fast enough so we can observe it without having to wait billions of years.

I see your point.

And that's why the ones that adhere to the truths in their books asks, "Please provide proof that what we accept as truth is actually false".

This is actually a signal, a plea, that asks for more than just ridicule but actually reasonable and humane approach.

When a person believes something, atheists should look into this, and have lived their lives with all the harsh (or otherwise) precepts of their beliefs, bashing them head on with "Stupid" is just not helping. Why? It's obvious. This is my point.

To answer your question therefore is easy, a person's beliefs is not just an "Idea" like you would at least want to consider. It is like their skin color, even more. It's like believing and feeling one is a man, even if one's body speaks otherwise.

Care is called for.

Edit: Check this guy's thoughts about what is happening.

Well, Grad, I am angry at the atrocities, be it in the name of any God or not. I'm with you on that. And to be honest, it's painful.

My stand is that I hope one day people will not be easily manipulated, would look at culture, media, magazines, religion, and all with a spirit of their own and make up their own mind. Even create their own thoughts without trying to destroy another person but find pleasure in the diversity, and probably celebrate that each one is capable of imagination, reason, self-examination, and relate with, from, or without with each other.

When I see young teenagers here adopting hip-hop gangster images without even questioning themselves and the idea is to me a great pain. It makes them follow a paradigm of drugs, rape, gun-point intellect, and just plain stupid. I don't see rap or the culture being shown as truth but as entertainment, but when kids get led to this and eventually an adult takes control and form a retarded following that looks and behaves like a cult, leading sheep to certain evils, I burn inside.

Thus, giving just one example there, there's something incomplete with most if not all people. I too am subject to this, and so I try hard and ask and discuss.

I agree with you Grad, and I have a suspicion why things in this discussion at least seems to be mirrored from what others have already said or implied.

To answer the quote there, I would lay a vote on the box that says, "No". Just as much that people would not simply love the piece of music, but must admire the musician. The inventor, rather than simply the useful invention.

You know what's funny about "Purpose Driven Life" (not the book but the idea of just these words)? Personally, and this is just personal mental exercise. Don't these people think it's demeaning to have a purpose? That one must have purpose to have a fulfilling life? Doesn't this idea make utilities of people?

Anyway, that's some points there. Hint, hint.

But then when another group starts bashing at them, because some other group that has their same symbol or clothing or color of skin is doing something terrible, then I've got a problem with that. I believe anyone does, this is why it's wrong to just attack "Religion" in general.

It think it actually somehow gathers moderates from moderate to extremes. God forbid. I don't know why atheist suddenly rallied and marched out against everyone. I saw this and thought, Wow this is counter productive if the aim was to destroy religion. This is establishing religion.

edit: Check this out guys. This shows something about people who "confess" and say, "Lord, lord!"

It's been tried before, destroying religion that is, but no one can. It's part being human to believe in something, and to wonder what is out there, and to be as we are.

I agree in violence and reason. The most potent form of violence is violence you have reason for. Power is important, control, since humans are born with it. This is why we have courts to at least minimize the damage, but when courts fail, especially living in squalor areas or gang areas, you better have the balls or be the bitch.

I agree to these realities. To the moral complaints, to the screams saying, "Father, why have you forsaken me!"

This is why I believe as well that what is predicted will eventually occur, and the only way to spare a few humans is intervention on a grand scale.

I also agree that nuking entire countries because a certain group is running around in there are creating trouble is a terrible move. This goes with attacking religions as well.

I suggest atheist send pastors,clergy and imams that will corrupt the religions from within. Make their believers think, and allow them to doubt, then from there control which clergy becomes clergy so the plan persist. But even so, the "elect" will never be deceived but will only be strengthened in the process.

The current attacks from the "four horsemen" only serves to 'shake the tree' so to speak, but will never cut it down. Soul has a valid point in saying that the only clear though brutal solution is extermination. I do not subscribe to this though, as I subscribe that sheep will be sheep, and false shepherds must be thrown into the deep with a heavy stone strung around their necks.

/grabs more beer

edit: and yes its 666

I imagine we're in this bar and with all the swearing, lolling, I'd order another round.

I've thought about the issue too, and removing God or diminishing his imagery as portrayed seems to be the direct solution. But this act seems to entice or provoke rather than heal.

This is normal. But to anyone who must remove God from men is faced with the responsibility of at least giving them an alternative and do the same cycle with those alternative, all the while keeping people from going to extremes in whatever aspect of their lives.

What I know is that when something is stored in a person and these thing builds up overtime for so long and one suddenly pops the cork, a burst will always follow.

In the past some non-believers drop to intense emotions because they did not prepare an alternative route.

So this is my proposal: first promote an alternative route, which deals with both material and spiritual (or cognitive or emotional or whatever that is called), and affirm this to a point that it becomes so fundamental it would sound insane to not at least admit this contains truth.

then support the people who will abandon their worldviews for yours, based on the fundamental truths that is held by this alternative route, all the while not being hostile to those who would not.

then repeat.

The agenda must be totally selfless. The leader or the promoter must not try to gain what is commonly held valuable either in the realm of personal desires or political, nor must it hold or try to gain what is in scarce supply seen in the masses. The aim must be because of truth and nothing else.

The promoter must be spotless from all angles, that nothing can be said against him/her/it that might be used to diminish it's authority, and it must express it's authority not as a dictator but as a liberator. A liberator not of force, but of the pursuit of both personal and social liberation. Liberation not from deed to value, but from worth to value. From the direction which starts from within which extends outwards.

*** And as for Man and Man marriages, the government can create a new name, "Union" and then just pour in the legal shit that's in marriages with Man and Woman that has been abused and used as bullets to people involved.

I honestly am disgusted with Marriage simply because it's not what it is. It's only for stuff you can do with the court.

Marriage is union between two persons deep inside. Dicks to ass or dicks to vagina doesn't mean shit. Any person can be fucking his "wife" or "husband" but don't feel the connection that's supposed to be the deepest and fundamental element that drives a relationship.

Religion can talk shit loads of things to keep this sick cycle going, but damn, God knows their hearts more than themselves.

Forgive the language.

"I think we've got something, sir. The report is only a fragment, from a probe droid in the Hoth system, but it's the best lead we've had."

- Piett, Aboard the Super Star Destroyer Executor

"Throughout the Stronghold I discovered evidence of my former nobility, and my life as a Sarafan priest. This was the heritage so foully stolen from me when Kain raided my sacred crypt and defiled me."

- Raziel

1 Corinthians 13:13

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Hebrews 13:3

Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body.

Micah 6:8

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Romans 13:10

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Psalm 73:28

But for me it is good to be near God; I have made the Lord God my refuge, that I may tell of all your works.

1 Corinthians 15:58

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Ephesians 6:10

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.

James 4:8

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Romans 8:26

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

Colossians 3:17

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

This link leads you to a series of videos that in the least would provide good mental exercise.

Dr. Ravi Zacharias

This man can add some input.