I asked, I got my feedback and made my choices 1 year ago. In fact the mutaling came out from another suggestion and I liked it.
Additionally I already started making these units with their abilities so I think it's a bit late to change everything.
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Saying without a valid reason is better than saying...
Now you know it, to change the full creatures list I would need a better whole fit for them. That means I don't care if a single unit seems better then the other. All the set of choices must fit in SC2 with some sense.
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Which is not cool.
Find a better set of creatures and I may think of it. Still i don't think it's a good idea to waste yours and my time discussing something that's already been decided and feels ok.
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If a firefly should exist, it shouldn't be improved in anyway. They're designed to scout, not to be vital in combat. That'll just make them similar to a goblin. Fireflies were are the best and only scouts, right? Then they shouldn't be mistaken for something else. That's just my input. Still don't see why it matters if they're suicidal, they do their job and get thrown back in the portal anyway.
I want to give each creature a sense, I don't see anything bad in giving fireflies some utility in combat. Else why should you able to train them to level 10 if they are useless? The problem of suicidal is that THEY DON'T HAVE AN ANIMATION ATTACK! The second problem is that banelings are slow ground units that sure aren't a great choice for exploration. I don't see why I should use banelings for that role or for any other role, it makes really no sense. Additionally I already said I'm going to use them for traps.
I want to give each creature a sense, I don't see anything bad in giving fireflies some utility in combat. Else why should you able to train them to level 10 if they are useless? The problem of suicidal is that THEY DON'T HAVE AN ANIMATION ATTACK! The second problem is that banelings are slow ground units that sure aren't a great choice for exploration. I don't see why I should use banelings for that role or for any other role, it makes really no sense. Additionally I already said I'm going to use them for traps.
A scout creature doesn't require an attack animation, if anything, let it run around and not attack at all. It's only purpose is to scout, nothing else. Also you're asking why should we train it to level 10? That's a good question, why would anyone train a firefly or a fly to level 10? No one did. So this is were you could add something new. Instead of making it into a combat/scout creature, you could make it into a stronger scout.
As the baneling levels, it gets more hp, movement speed, and does more explosive damage. Imagine the damage a high level scout could do when it blows up all of the enemy keeper's drones. Possibly even increase the radius of the explosion when the baneling levels. They could move quite fast when they start rolling around, so speed shouldn't be a problem. Like said before, if you wanna speed them up, start leveling them. That's how you'll make a scout vital. If you turn him into combat creature, players would choose mutalings over zerglings.
So why should the baneling be up for the scout role? You're in a dungeon, it's very dark and the baneling is the only glowing zerg unit. Banelings can also bury themselves underground, which makes it reasonable that they would be in a dungeon. It also is suicidal, which is good since after it completes its job, it dies. Hardly ever do we use them after they do their job, since they're a waste of space, food, and money.
Banelings can also be effective at being annoying scouts. Blowing up and annoying the enemy is going to be fun. If players want to stop them, have them build a door or a trap. Honestly at first I didn't think it was that good of an idea. But after realizing how useless fireflies were, this would make them much more useful.
Why does it seem that you are ignoring what I'm saying? :|
Mutalings are perfect and I said I'm oging to make them more useful, not more powerful then a zergling.
Just let me do the balance work and don't compare the units strength to the old DK games, they won't be the same on HK.
Dunno, I estimated already 5 years of development to do everything (obviously the game will be available before 5 years xD). Adding other features would be another huge work :P
Actually I don't have any idea on any additional room I could make and I think there is no more space in the UI too, if you have some good new room idea shoot it.
Maybe I can do something when HOTS will offer new units and doodads models.
Mind Control Room - Similar to the scavenging room in the original dungeon keeper, but have it be nerfed. It was a little overpowered before. It's a good room because it makes defensive players be more effective.
Nursery - Placing two same type creatures in the nursery will make them mate, giving them a low % chance to lay an egg. If laying an egg was unsuccessful, the two creatures will become unhappy and will leave the room. If an egg is laid, the parents will leave the room and the egg will require time to hatch a the creature. The nursery will increase creature population beyond the portal limit, but it will also have a limit. For example, lets say the portal limit would be 10, the nursery would allow you to get an addition 5 creatures.
If your creature limit is reached, throwing creatures in the nursery will just make them leave the room. The nursery will be a room that will be available much later on in the research tree. It's not a good idea to sell it afterwords, because when your creature dies, the portal wont spawn another one, since you're still over the population limit of the portal.
Vespene Room - Creatures will get sick with illnesses very rarely. However, these illnesses can critically harm your dungeon if the creatures are untreated. When a creature is sick, they will enter the vespene room which has vespene gas flowing throughout it. The gas strengthens the creatures, allowing them to fight the illness and ultimately curing them (yes, I think I've read somewhere that vespene gas strengthens the zerg).
There will be different types of illnesses. Such as, the common cold, which will make the creature refuse to do anything but sleep and will eventually leave your dungeon. Parasite, which will damage your creature until it dies, upon death will spawn broodling that will attack your creatures. Plague, which is very contagious and is capable of wiping your entire dungeon. I'm sure you can think of more. It should be more difficult for higher level creatures to obtain a illness.
Remove Rooms
Stone Bridge - Was pointless, we don't need lava.
Wooden Bridge - Was pointless, we don't need water.
Prison - You're right, zerg don't imprison people. A dead person should go straight to the torture chamber if its available. It could make space for better rooms and a changeling doesn't attack, it just morphs, right? A changling would be better suited as a summoned creature.
Mind Control Room - Similar to the scavenging room in the original dungeon keeper, but have it be nerfed. It was a little overpowered before. It's a good room because it makes defensive players be more effective.
Omg I forgot about that, what was it used for? Steal enemy creatures? Yep, that would give a good objective to defensive players too, there would be a reason to go for traps specialization.
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Vespene Room - Creatures will get sick with illnesses very rarely. However, these illnesses can critically harm your dungeon if the creatures are untreated. When a creature is sick, they will enter the vespene room which has vespene gas flowing throughout it. The gas strengthens the creatures, allowing them to fight the illness and ultimately curing them (yes, I think I've read somewhere that vespene gas strengthens the zerg).
There will be different types of illnesses. Such as, the common cold, which will make the creature refuse to do anything but sleep and will eventually leave your dungeon. Parasite, which will damage your creature until it dies, upon death will spawn broodling that will attack your creatures. Plague, which is very contagious and is capable of wiping your entire dungeon. I'm sure you can think of more. It should be more difficult for higher level creatures to obtain a illness.
The idea is nice but I don't like to add too much randomness in a pvp game, maybe in single player.
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Nursery - Placing two same type creatures in the nursery will make them mate, giving them a low % chance to lay an egg. If laying an egg was unsuccessful, the two creatures will become unhappy and will leave the room. If an egg is laid, the parents will leave the room and the egg will require time to hatch a the creature. The nursery will increase creature population beyond the portal limit, but it will also have a limit. For example, lets say the portal limit would be 10, the nursery would allow you to get an addition 5 creatures.
If your creature limit is reached, throwing creatures in the nursery will just make them leave the room. The nursery will be a room that will be available much later on in the research tree. It's not a good idea to sell it afterwords, because when your creature dies, the portal wont spawn another one, since you're still over the population limit of the portal.
Nice idea, don't know how much it should be random for the same pvp balance issues of the vespene room.
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Stone Bridge - Was pointless, we don't need lava.
Wooden Bridge - Was pointless, we don't need water.
Prison - You're right, zerg don't imprison people. A dead person should go straight to the torture chamber if its available. It could make space for better rooms and a changeling doesn't attack, it just morphs, right? A changling would be better suited as a summoned creature.
Lava and water were good game mechanics, digging a wall into an open water filled area made your dungeon weaker and at the same time allowed you to explore new big open areas. Maybe lava was less usefull, one of water or lava is enough and I don't know if I would be able to add both of them.
I like the prison, even aliens imprison their victims inside webs while waiting for their babies hatching :P
Obviously it will be some kinda of spike prison.
Omg I forgot about that, what was it used for? Steal enemy creatures? Yep, that would give a good objective to defensive players too, there would be a reason to go for traps specialization.
If you place a creature into the scavenger room, it will cast evil influence amongst other creatures around the map. It targets the lowest level creatures of its type first before looking further afield for other creatures. The creature it targets will become unhappy, if the enemy keeper doesn't put the creature in the temple, it will eventually leave through the portal and make it's way into your portal. The creatures you influence will keep their level and will come through your portal being happy.
If you place a high level creature into your scavenger room, influencing a creature will become much faster. Same goes for adding more creatures of the same type.
The idea is nice but I don't like to add too much randomness in a pvp game, maybe in single player.
This forces defensive players to waste money on training creatures. Illnesses are very rare and if you're creature is a high level, getting a sickness would be like winning the lottery. So offensive players in a PvP situations, will not be affected. Even if they do get affected, this room would just easily heal their creatures.
Nice idea, don't know how much it should be random for the same pvp balance issues of the vespene room.
The nursery requires the keeper to put two creatures in it, the creatures don't use the room on their own. I don't understand the PvP balance issues with this idea. There will still be a creature limit.
I totally forgot how the scavenger room workers, now it comes back to my mind, thanks :P
I think that it would be a huge addiction and considering I have only 1 room slot it would sure be my choice compared to the others.
BTW every room attracts a new creature type, what could a scavenger room attract? I suppose this creature should have a similar power to dark angels and should be a psionic creature. The room should have the same level of the temple.
FIVE YEARS!?!?!?!?!?, LOL nice though, you're making a map thats making me want to load up my starcraft and scream and demand it now :P, everything looks amazing, and you seem to take feedback well, I think this map/mod, could really top the charts.
I totally forgot how the scavenger room workers, now it comes back to my mind, thanks :P
I think that it would be a huge addiction and considering I have only 1 room slot it would sure be my choice compared to the others.
BTW every room attracts a new creature type, what could a scavenger room attract? I suppose this creature should have a similar power to dark angels and should be a psionic creature. The room should have the same level of the temple.
maybe a hybrid Destroyer? I think it could fit well.
For a good campaign and map editor sure :P
Multiplayer and defensive single player games will be out quite soon.
I'm lucky that with HOTS and LOTV sc2 should be played for a lot of years to see this map completed :D
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maybe a hybrid Destroyer? I think it could fit well.
I'm already using the destroyer for dark angels, I could switch them to the other hybrid but the destroyer is soo similar to the old dark angels... dunno :D
BTW every room attracts a new creature type, what could a scavenger room attract? I suppose this creature should have a similar power to dark angels and should be a psionic creature. The room should have the same level of the temple.
In the original dungeon keeper it attracted hellhounds, which were basically an improved version of a fly. So you should use a fast moving ground unit, possibly a broodling or you could maybe take my baneling idea. The scavenger room is powerful room, so the creatures it'll attract shouldn't be powerful too or else it'll be sort of cheap. Hellhounds weren't that powerful at all. Kinda fits, annoying room attracts an annoying scout.
:P, Well if you get impaitien, start ripping them from WoW :D. Take your time, this could really be something amazing, A custom that could Outdo all others.
I think this could be "The map" SC2 is known for when its finished.
I asked, I got my feedback and made my choices 1 year ago. In fact the mutaling came out from another suggestion and I liked it.
Additionally I already started making these units with their abilities so I think it's a bit late to change everything.
Now you know it, to change the full creatures list I would need a better whole fit for them. That means I don't care if a single unit seems better then the other. All the set of choices must fit in SC2 with some sense.
Find a better set of creatures and I may think of it. Still i don't think it's a good idea to waste yours and my time discussing something that's already been decided and feels ok.
I want to give each creature a sense, I don't see anything bad in giving fireflies some utility in combat. Else why should you able to train them to level 10 if they are useless? The problem of suicidal is that THEY DON'T HAVE AN ANIMATION ATTACK! The second problem is that banelings are slow ground units that sure aren't a great choice for exploration. I don't see why I should use banelings for that role or for any other role, it makes really no sense. Additionally I already said I'm going to use them for traps.
A scout creature doesn't require an attack animation, if anything, let it run around and not attack at all. It's only purpose is to scout, nothing else. Also you're asking why should we train it to level 10? That's a good question, why would anyone train a firefly or a fly to level 10? No one did. So this is were you could add something new. Instead of making it into a combat/scout creature, you could make it into a stronger scout.
As the baneling levels, it gets more hp, movement speed, and does more explosive damage. Imagine the damage a high level scout could do when it blows up all of the enemy keeper's drones. Possibly even increase the radius of the explosion when the baneling levels. They could move quite fast when they start rolling around, so speed shouldn't be a problem. Like said before, if you wanna speed them up, start leveling them. That's how you'll make a scout vital. If you turn him into combat creature, players would choose mutalings over zerglings.
So why should the baneling be up for the scout role? You're in a dungeon, it's very dark and the baneling is the only glowing zerg unit. Banelings can also bury themselves underground, which makes it reasonable that they would be in a dungeon. It also is suicidal, which is good since after it completes its job, it dies. Hardly ever do we use them after they do their job, since they're a waste of space, food, and money.
Banelings can also be effective at being annoying scouts. Blowing up and annoying the enemy is going to be fun. If players want to stop them, have them build a door or a trap. Honestly at first I didn't think it was that good of an idea. But after realizing how useless fireflies were, this would make them much more useful.
@TrenixPL: Go
Why does it seem that you are ignoring what I'm saying? :|
Mutalings are perfect and I said I'm oging to make them more useful, not more powerful then a zergling.
Just let me do the balance work and don't compare the units strength to the old DK games, they won't be the same on HK.
@Bibendus: Go
Just my input on if it was a baneling.
Anyway, are you planning on ever making your own expansion? Like new rooms, creatures, ect?
@TrenixPL: Go
Dunno, I estimated already 5 years of development to do everything (obviously the game will be available before 5 years xD). Adding other features would be another huge work :P
Actually I don't have any idea on any additional room I could make and I think there is no more space in the UI too, if you have some good new room idea shoot it.
Maybe I can do something when HOTS will offer new units and doodads models.
@Bibendus: Go
Room Suggestions
Mind Control Room - Similar to the scavenging room in the original dungeon keeper, but have it be nerfed. It was a little overpowered before. It's a good room because it makes defensive players be more effective.
Nursery - Placing two same type creatures in the nursery will make them mate, giving them a low % chance to lay an egg. If laying an egg was unsuccessful, the two creatures will become unhappy and will leave the room. If an egg is laid, the parents will leave the room and the egg will require time to hatch a the creature. The nursery will increase creature population beyond the portal limit, but it will also have a limit. For example, lets say the portal limit would be 10, the nursery would allow you to get an addition 5 creatures.
If your creature limit is reached, throwing creatures in the nursery will just make them leave the room. The nursery will be a room that will be available much later on in the research tree. It's not a good idea to sell it afterwords, because when your creature dies, the portal wont spawn another one, since you're still over the population limit of the portal.
Vespene Room - Creatures will get sick with illnesses very rarely. However, these illnesses can critically harm your dungeon if the creatures are untreated. When a creature is sick, they will enter the vespene room which has vespene gas flowing throughout it. The gas strengthens the creatures, allowing them to fight the illness and ultimately curing them (yes, I think I've read somewhere that vespene gas strengthens the zerg).
There will be different types of illnesses. Such as, the common cold, which will make the creature refuse to do anything but sleep and will eventually leave your dungeon. Parasite, which will damage your creature until it dies, upon death will spawn broodling that will attack your creatures. Plague, which is very contagious and is capable of wiping your entire dungeon. I'm sure you can think of more. It should be more difficult for higher level creatures to obtain a illness.
Remove Rooms
Stone Bridge - Was pointless, we don't need lava.
Wooden Bridge - Was pointless, we don't need water.
Prison - You're right, zerg don't imprison people. A dead person should go straight to the torture chamber if its available. It could make space for better rooms and a changeling doesn't attack, it just morphs, right? A changling would be better suited as a summoned creature.
Omg I forgot about that, what was it used for? Steal enemy creatures? Yep, that would give a good objective to defensive players too, there would be a reason to go for traps specialization.
The idea is nice but I don't like to add too much randomness in a pvp game, maybe in single player.
Nice idea, don't know how much it should be random for the same pvp balance issues of the vespene room.
Lava and water were good game mechanics, digging a wall into an open water filled area made your dungeon weaker and at the same time allowed you to explore new big open areas. Maybe lava was less usefull, one of water or lava is enough and I don't know if I would be able to add both of them.
I like the prison, even aliens imprison their victims inside webs while waiting for their babies hatching :P
Obviously it will be some kinda of spike prison.
If you place a creature into the scavenger room, it will cast evil influence amongst other creatures around the map. It targets the lowest level creatures of its type first before looking further afield for other creatures. The creature it targets will become unhappy, if the enemy keeper doesn't put the creature in the temple, it will eventually leave through the portal and make it's way into your portal. The creatures you influence will keep their level and will come through your portal being happy.
If you place a high level creature into your scavenger room, influencing a creature will become much faster. Same goes for adding more creatures of the same type.
This forces defensive players to waste money on training creatures. Illnesses are very rare and if you're creature is a high level, getting a sickness would be like winning the lottery. So offensive players in a PvP situations, will not be affected. Even if they do get affected, this room would just easily heal their creatures.
The nursery requires the keeper to put two creatures in it, the creatures don't use the room on their own. I don't understand the PvP balance issues with this idea. There will still be a creature limit.
I totally forgot how the scavenger room workers, now it comes back to my mind, thanks :P
I think that it would be a huge addiction and considering I have only 1 room slot it would sure be my choice compared to the others.
BTW every room attracts a new creature type, what could a scavenger room attract? I suppose this creature should have a similar power to dark angels and should be a psionic creature. The room should have the same level of the temple.
FIVE YEARS!?!?!?!?!?, LOL nice though, you're making a map thats making me want to load up my starcraft and scream and demand it now :P, everything looks amazing, and you seem to take feedback well, I think this map/mod, could really top the charts.
@Bibendus: Go
maybe a hybrid Destroyer? I think it could fit well.
For a good campaign and map editor sure :P
Multiplayer and defensive single player games will be out quite soon.
I'm lucky that with HOTS and LOTV sc2 should be played for a lot of years to see this map completed :D
I'm already using the destroyer for dark angels, I could switch them to the other hybrid but the destroyer is soo similar to the old dark angels... dunno :D
@Bibendus: Go
Yeah, This seems like a great project your working on, If you need any Testers Send me a PM XD, But seriosuly this looks great.
In the original dungeon keeper it attracted hellhounds, which were basically an improved version of a fly. So you should use a fast moving ground unit, possibly a broodling or you could maybe take my baneling idea. The scavenger room is powerful room, so the creatures it'll attract shouldn't be powerful too or else it'll be sort of cheap. Hellhounds weren't that powerful at all. Kinda fits, annoying room attracts an annoying scout.
That makes sense xD
BTW I think I'll wait for the expansion to come out before I add other rooms or creatures.
@Bibendus: Go
the whole expansion or just its Editor?
@rageofhell: Go
I'll wait the expansion for the new models, actually I'm using suckiing models for rooms and I have no more units models to use :|
@Bibendus: Go
so when can we start trying this game ?
@Bibendus: Go
:P, Well if you get impaitien, start ripping them from WoW :D. Take your time, this could really be something amazing, A custom that could Outdo all others.
I think this could be "The map" SC2 is known for when its finished.
@SouLCarveRR: Go
More then 1 month ago I posted some release info on my forum
http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/hive-keeper/forum/26643-hive-keeper-release-info-announcement/#p1
The development is going well, I estimate that the single player version should be out before the end of the year, I don't know when the multiplayer one will be available.
@rageofhell: Go
I'm not impatient, I have tonz of things to do BEFORE these new rooms and units so I can wait :P
I'm glad you believe on this project, I do :D