Woooooooow the new sniper chick is terrible, it wont let me shoot up hill and wont let me stealth half the time, every one of her abilities takes so long to charge up to the point where a character like ace can kill you before the channel bar is done.
Even when the enemy stands perfectly still lethal shot wont hit them or deal damage.
I'll update with more info if I can get any but I probably wont cause I have no desire to play her again, and look forward to dominating anyone who does.
For some reason half the time her stealth wont work it just greys out and I cant use it again for the whole round, and the hit registration on her abilities is so awful, you can't even be a fraction of a degree off, which means hitting someone is dumb luck or they have to already be stunned so that you can follow it up with your stun in the hopes that it lasts long enough for her to finish channeling her abilities.
How does this relate to the core mechanics of the game, other than number crunching?
The only conditional requirement is the caster's timing and attention, compared to damage classes who have to aim, time between two moving targets, and decide exactly how each ability will hit in correlation to the enemy's attention, timing, etc. In short, healing doesn't require as much skill, and therefor is deemed as OP. The only people who will have a say on this are people who are biased towards DPS or HPS, of which contain different connotative concepts; pointless to talk about either one in balance to eachother, unless you have someone with a pure point of view, or at least compare the viewpoints on each side of the bias spectrum.
From much experience in comparing philosophical concepts between gameplay mechanics of games that only follow damage/healing formulas and/or require a movement/timing/real-time planning mechanic, for a game that only crunches numbers (follows damage/healing independently of any other mechanic), you need a sense of conditional balance: a concept that people will only be able to grasp intuitionally, causing many complaints, and changes in the wrong direction. I've seen this many, many times.
Conditional balance is the tie between each ability, and the gameplay mechanics. Each ability has an individual conditional balance, and each ability in correlation to eachother has a conditional balance that is related to eachother's conditional balance. Individual conditional balance, based on a three-part concept map (the most common) is described as reaction, timing, and placement; each ability has at least one of these concepts. For example, an ability that causes direct damage on just a target, instantly, will only have individual conditional balance in timing; if it had to be aimed or had to be in melee range, it would be conditionally balanced between timing and placement; if you split the damage into direct + the rest of the damage when the target hits you or something, then the ability would be balanced evenly across each concept, regardless of number damage.
Conditional Balance between each ability is a bit tricky, and is found only through philosophical concepts. The balance between each ability isn't the number, but the skill, and conditional balance between each ability as a whole. It's like trying to find a correlation between three or more variables, you would need a three-dimensional (or more) graph. Most people mistake this for how the numbers interact, which is true when individual conditional balance is met by the player through experience; experience is based on memorization, not solely skill. In order to achieve full conditional balance, you would need to balance healing and damage, first of all, which is what I'm trying to let you realize for the future of this game (or another game).
I'm still working on edging her out a bit. She has the longest range in the game, and to stealth you have to be out of combat for about 8 seconds. Gimme an hour or two and she should be up to speed.
you should increase the radius check on her abilities slightly though, legit sometimes I hold them and click on them and it doesn't hit. guessing because they're in the "safe" zone inbetween radial checks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zergling Blood : starcraft://map/1/35684
Game of Thrones : starcraft://map/1/189756
Tacticraft : starcraft://map/1/223625
Correct. Her concept is high risk high reward. She has the touchiest aim, but like a sniper, she can easily be the one shot, one kill character that can't handle a close up encounter. You want to play her like a sniper, stay way the fuck back and try to line up a perfect shot. You can also root and then line up a shot, but they're quite a bit less dmg than if you hit from stealth.
and I'm cool with that, but it's to the point where she's practically useless, with how fast paced the game is most people wont be standing around letting you line something up, or even headed in the same direction long enough for you to lead them with such long casting times. Perhaps making the registration for her regular hits a little less sensitive (as well as her two snipe shots that aren't the "lethal" one) and reducing the casting times a bit (again not including the lethal one, cause if they're stunned and it does in fact register, it does deal a lot of dmg) it would put her more up to speed.
I'm getting the impression that your "check every some odd distance" in the abilities is too far apart though. If your radial check is lower, that goes all 30, meaning your "per distance" checks need to be much closer together and more frequently in order for it to be the "beam" that it should be.
for example, say your check has a radius of 1, and it checks every 5 distance, technically there's 3 distance of "safe zone" in between the check points where even if someone is standing directly in the line of fire, the ability won't register them being there.
Edit: oh yeah, and I'm not sure if you did but you should reduce the engineer guy's self heals a bit as well, he could pop down two healing drones at one time and heal sooooo fast.
Adding more classes is going to be difficult if you don't have an overall concept. Having new concepts spawn off of spoofs, common ideals, and spontaneity, will only build up to turmoil in the end. I'm glad you picked the main 4 archetypes; the most common four-part concept map in many, many games.
Unless you have an overall plan for hero development, taking ideas from other sources without filtering it for pre-balance will cause this game to crash eventually (whether it is frustration, laziness, or influx of complaints). Again, I've seen this in many, many, MANY games.
I see how it is, insta gib someone ONE TIME and suddenly she's amazing :P
lol.
Rematch function that allows you to reselect characters.
add it.
perhaps even an option to change up teams?
oh and a really cool projectile that starts as a beam from the caster, and you can shift right click to order the projectile where to go as long as the caster remains channeling, like a dragon head that leaves a trail of flame behind from everyone's favorite firebat.
Adding more classes is going to be difficult if you don't have an overall concept. Having new concepts spawn off of spoofs, common ideals, and spontaneity, will only build up to turmoil in the end. I'm glad you picked the main 4 archetypes; the most common four-part concept map in many, many games.
Unless you have an overall plan for hero development, taking ideas from other sources without filtering it for pre-balance will cause this game to crash eventually (whether it is frustration, laziness, or influx of complaints). Again, I've seen this in many, many, MANY games.
Thanks for the advice, I didn't spend 3 months writing code.
Play the fuck out of the game, feel out what characters are working heavier than intended, balance as such. Not a hard concept, and doesn't require a 10 page essay on how to make my own game.
I added the cast time back into Sarina's Burst of Life ability, see how this goes. It requires a bit of aim now.
I know I'm a huge bother, but I would love to see a changelog please, so that I may insult all of the hard work that you do in the hopes that it somehow assists you in the perfection of said wonderful game.
:X
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zergling Blood : starcraft://map/1/35684
Game of Thrones : starcraft://map/1/189756
Tacticraft : starcraft://map/1/223625
hey, mephs, this is a really good game. some feedback after playing about ten/fifteen rounds of this game:
- you might want to make the "FIVE ROUNDS" part bigger because this game attracts the most leavers ive ever seen
also a couple of things about the frost guy
- his ultimate feels more like a supports ultimate, it's channeling and most people can just get out of it easily and punish him
- his ice lance is amazing keep away, but is very predictable, when people learn to dodge it, then he becomes nearly useless. his S ability has a long cooldown to activate, his CC escape keeps him in place, and if his D ability is on CD, he gets owned. if he got an ice clone ability like subzero, that would be very useful (Ice clone then run away, keeps away rush and other characters trying to wreck him) i understand its hard to code but it would be very useful if he had another short CD ability to help him survive.
also one more concern i have:
- hells gate. this map is so laggy, and with all the effects and stuff it just makes it even more laggy. ive seen people get stuck near the bridges sometimes (behind the spires near the right bridge) i was wondering if you could somehow.. tone the map down a little more? literally almost all i can see is lava. removing all the little lava geysers except for one would be a start
edit: hawk is cool, but it bothers me that she cant shoot up ledges D:
thanks for reading, this game is great :D
Balance in correlation to what? Eachother? What about eachother? The damage? If so, how will changing the damage output of one class effect the others?
You can build this game by feel, but you're going to have to try hard as hell not to try and define anything. Try to define something, and you have to deal with connotative definitions, and the effects of subconscious manipulative and psychological algorithms. Accept everything you come across, and this game will fall, although you will personally succeed
Making this game, however, is going to have you thinking abstractly; anything else will bring the game into the ground. If you truly want to make this game the way you're going about it now, stop listening to everyone, and allow the game to flourish by your own intuition. The moment you listen to someone else, you'll kill this game, the same way many dead games out there have died.
If you're ready to take the concept of games, life, and everything in your consciousness, then let me know.
As of now, everyone is your enemy; the more it seems naught, the moreso it is. Once you can only see the best in everyone, and love the presence of human nature, you'll be the one progressing.
I'm glad that you reduced Sarina's self-heal's a lot. She was literally impossible to kill 1v1 with a guardian if they had half-decent control. I hope you put a longer cooldown on Dex's heal as well (maybe buff other skills a bit to compensate). Healing in general can be really annoying to deal with, especially if it is down to 2v2 or even worse a 1v1. I must say the game is very good and addictive. I can't wait to see how it grows!
edit: hawk is cool, but it bothers me that she cant shoot up ledges D: thanks for reading, this game is great :D
Hawk's aim works like any other char's aim, but being that most of its casted, it requires a heavy amount of skill to land. And with good reason, she can one shot Revolver at full Hp with a stealth ultimate. But yeah overall her abilities just require a lot more prediction, or timing to land. All aimed abilities work the same way, so she's no different from Ace or Revolver.
Quote:
Making this game, however, is going to have you thinking abstractly; anything else will bring the game into the ground. If you truly want to make this game the way you're going about it now, stop listening to everyone, and allow the game to flourish by your own intuition. The moment you listen to someone else, you'll kill this game, the same way many dead games out there have died.
I agree and disagree. I know a bit about game theory, I'm no expert at it, but I know enough and I understand some of the things you're talking about. For one, you do need to listen to the playerbase to some extent, particularly when one topic of discussion comes up frequently enough (i.e. Sarina OP) it desires some looking at and investigation. If you ignore the playerbase entirely, then you might be missing some very important flaw in the game. On the other hand, I do not really take much consideration into player suggestions if its say, the cliche "one vocal person's view on the game" vs. everyone else saying X or Y is fine.
I AM designing this game based on my own plan for it, and no one else's. Of course, if someone asks if "X or Y" thing could be added, and its really a good suggestions, I'd definitely consider it. I have a lot more planned for the growth of the game, its not going to stay in its current state forever.
More things I want to add I've already addressed, such as PSR rankings, stat tracking, achievements.
Once you show acceptance to those who challenge your personal way of doing things, you'll soon be able to see things in a logical, and then philosophical manner. A good thing I notice is how you retain your flow of ideas and creativity when you speak, keeping a neutral point of view, ignoring the need of taking a side (very good!).
Pretty soon you'll be able to plan everything from the start like I do. ;3
Woooooooow the new sniper chick is terrible, it wont let me shoot up hill and wont let me stealth half the time, every one of her abilities takes so long to charge up to the point where a character like ace can kill you before the channel bar is done.
Even when the enemy stands perfectly still lethal shot wont hit them or deal damage.
I'll update with more info if I can get any but I probably wont cause I have no desire to play her again, and look forward to dominating anyone who does.
For some reason half the time her stealth wont work it just greys out and I cant use it again for the whole round, and the hit registration on her abilities is so awful, you can't even be a fraction of a degree off, which means hitting someone is dumb luck or they have to already be stunned so that you can follow it up with your stun in the hopes that it lasts long enough for her to finish channeling her abilities.
@Mephs: Go
How does this relate to the core mechanics of the game, other than number crunching?
The only conditional requirement is the caster's timing and attention, compared to damage classes who have to aim, time between two moving targets, and decide exactly how each ability will hit in correlation to the enemy's attention, timing, etc. In short, healing doesn't require as much skill, and therefor is deemed as OP. The only people who will have a say on this are people who are biased towards DPS or HPS, of which contain different connotative concepts; pointless to talk about either one in balance to eachother, unless you have someone with a pure point of view, or at least compare the viewpoints on each side of the bias spectrum.
From much experience in comparing philosophical concepts between gameplay mechanics of games that only follow damage/healing formulas and/or require a movement/timing/real-time planning mechanic, for a game that only crunches numbers (follows damage/healing independently of any other mechanic), you need a sense of conditional balance: a concept that people will only be able to grasp intuitionally, causing many complaints, and changes in the wrong direction. I've seen this many, many times.
Conditional balance is the tie between each ability, and the gameplay mechanics. Each ability has an individual conditional balance, and each ability in correlation to eachother has a conditional balance that is related to eachother's conditional balance. Individual conditional balance, based on a three-part concept map (the most common) is described as reaction, timing, and placement; each ability has at least one of these concepts. For example, an ability that causes direct damage on just a target, instantly, will only have individual conditional balance in timing; if it had to be aimed or had to be in melee range, it would be conditionally balanced between timing and placement; if you split the damage into direct + the rest of the damage when the target hits you or something, then the ability would be balanced evenly across each concept, regardless of number damage.
Conditional Balance between each ability is a bit tricky, and is found only through philosophical concepts. The balance between each ability isn't the number, but the skill, and conditional balance between each ability as a whole. It's like trying to find a correlation between three or more variables, you would need a three-dimensional (or more) graph. Most people mistake this for how the numbers interact, which is true when individual conditional balance is met by the player through experience; experience is based on memorization, not solely skill. In order to achieve full conditional balance, you would need to balance healing and damage, first of all, which is what I'm trying to let you realize for the future of this game (or another game).
@EchoedRequiem: Go
I'm still working on edging her out a bit. She has the longest range in the game, and to stealth you have to be out of combat for about 8 seconds. Gimme an hour or two and she should be up to speed.
Also, I reduced Sarina's self heals quite a bit.
I appreciate both of those things greatly.
you should increase the radius check on her abilities slightly though, legit sometimes I hold them and click on them and it doesn't hit. guessing because they're in the "safe" zone inbetween radial checks.
@EchoedRequiem: Go
Correct. Her concept is high risk high reward. She has the touchiest aim, but like a sniper, she can easily be the one shot, one kill character that can't handle a close up encounter. You want to play her like a sniper, stay way the fuck back and try to line up a perfect shot. You can also root and then line up a shot, but they're quite a bit less dmg than if you hit from stealth.
and I'm cool with that, but it's to the point where she's practically useless, with how fast paced the game is most people wont be standing around letting you line something up, or even headed in the same direction long enough for you to lead them with such long casting times. Perhaps making the registration for her regular hits a little less sensitive (as well as her two snipe shots that aren't the "lethal" one) and reducing the casting times a bit (again not including the lethal one, cause if they're stunned and it does in fact register, it does deal a lot of dmg) it would put her more up to speed.
I'm getting the impression that your "check every some odd distance" in the abilities is too far apart though. If your radial check is lower, that goes all 30, meaning your "per distance" checks need to be much closer together and more frequently in order for it to be the "beam" that it should be.
for example, say your check has a radius of 1, and it checks every 5 distance, technically there's 3 distance of "safe zone" in between the check points where even if someone is standing directly in the line of fire, the ability won't register them being there.
Edit: oh yeah, and I'm not sure if you did but you should reduce the engineer guy's self heals a bit as well, he could pop down two healing drones at one time and heal sooooo fast.
Practically useless eh? :p
Adding more classes is going to be difficult if you don't have an overall concept. Having new concepts spawn off of spoofs, common ideals, and spontaneity, will only build up to turmoil in the end. I'm glad you picked the main 4 archetypes; the most common four-part concept map in many, many games.
Unless you have an overall plan for hero development, taking ideas from other sources without filtering it for pre-balance will cause this game to crash eventually (whether it is frustration, laziness, or influx of complaints). Again, I've seen this in many, many, MANY games.
@EchoedRequiem: Go
I see how it is, insta gib someone ONE TIME and suddenly she's amazing :P
lol.
Rematch function that allows you to reselect characters.
add it.
perhaps even an option to change up teams?
oh and a really cool projectile that starts as a beam from the caster, and you can shift right click to order the projectile where to go as long as the caster remains channeling, like a dragon head that leaves a trail of flame behind from everyone's favorite firebat.
Thanks for the advice, I didn't spend 3 months writing code.
@Mephs: Go
If you have an overall concept for hero development, then what is it?
@hihibanana: Go
Play the fuck out of the game, feel out what characters are working heavier than intended, balance as such. Not a hard concept, and doesn't require a 10 page essay on how to make my own game.
I added the cast time back into Sarina's Burst of Life ability, see how this goes. It requires a bit of aim now.
I know I'm a huge bother, but I would love to see a changelog please, so that I may insult all of the hard work that you do in the hopes that it somehow assists you in the perfection of said wonderful game.
:X
@EchoedRequiem: Go
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1756038856
hey, mephs, this is a really good game. some feedback after playing about ten/fifteen rounds of this game:
- you might want to make the "FIVE ROUNDS" part bigger because this game attracts the most leavers ive ever seen
also a couple of things about the frost guy
- his ultimate feels more like a supports ultimate, it's channeling and most people can just get out of it easily and punish him - his ice lance is amazing keep away, but is very predictable, when people learn to dodge it, then he becomes nearly useless. his S ability has a long cooldown to activate, his CC escape keeps him in place, and if his D ability is on CD, he gets owned. if he got an ice clone ability like subzero, that would be very useful (Ice clone then run away, keeps away rush and other characters trying to wreck him) i understand its hard to code but it would be very useful if he had another short CD ability to help him survive.
also one more concern i have:
- hells gate. this map is so laggy, and with all the effects and stuff it just makes it even more laggy. ive seen people get stuck near the bridges sometimes (behind the spires near the right bridge) i was wondering if you could somehow.. tone the map down a little more? literally almost all i can see is lava. removing all the little lava geysers except for one would be a start
edit: hawk is cool, but it bothers me that she cant shoot up ledges D: thanks for reading, this game is great :D
@Mephs: Go
Balance in correlation to what? Eachother? What about eachother? The damage? If so, how will changing the damage output of one class effect the others?
You can build this game by feel, but you're going to have to try hard as hell not to try and define anything. Try to define something, and you have to deal with connotative definitions, and the effects of subconscious manipulative and psychological algorithms. Accept everything you come across, and this game will fall, although you will personally succeed
Making this game, however, is going to have you thinking abstractly; anything else will bring the game into the ground. If you truly want to make this game the way you're going about it now, stop listening to everyone, and allow the game to flourish by your own intuition. The moment you listen to someone else, you'll kill this game, the same way many dead games out there have died.
If you're ready to take the concept of games, life, and everything in your consciousness, then let me know.
As of now, everyone is your enemy; the more it seems naught, the moreso it is. Once you can only see the best in everyone, and love the presence of human nature, you'll be the one progressing.
This is your final warning.
I'm glad that you reduced Sarina's self-heal's a lot. She was literally impossible to kill 1v1 with a guardian if they had half-decent control. I hope you put a longer cooldown on Dex's heal as well (maybe buff other skills a bit to compensate). Healing in general can be really annoying to deal with, especially if it is down to 2v2 or even worse a 1v1. I must say the game is very good and addictive. I can't wait to see how it grows!
Hawk's aim works like any other char's aim, but being that most of its casted, it requires a heavy amount of skill to land. And with good reason, she can one shot Revolver at full Hp with a stealth ultimate. But yeah overall her abilities just require a lot more prediction, or timing to land. All aimed abilities work the same way, so she's no different from Ace or Revolver.
I agree and disagree. I know a bit about game theory, I'm no expert at it, but I know enough and I understand some of the things you're talking about. For one, you do need to listen to the playerbase to some extent, particularly when one topic of discussion comes up frequently enough (i.e. Sarina OP) it desires some looking at and investigation. If you ignore the playerbase entirely, then you might be missing some very important flaw in the game. On the other hand, I do not really take much consideration into player suggestions if its say, the cliche "one vocal person's view on the game" vs. everyone else saying X or Y is fine.
I AM designing this game based on my own plan for it, and no one else's. Of course, if someone asks if "X or Y" thing could be added, and its really a good suggestions, I'd definitely consider it. I have a lot more planned for the growth of the game, its not going to stay in its current state forever.
More things I want to add I've already addressed, such as PSR rankings, stat tracking, achievements.
@Mephs: Go
Success!
Once you show acceptance to those who challenge your personal way of doing things, you'll soon be able to see things in a logical, and then philosophical manner. A good thing I notice is how you retain your flow of ideas and creativity when you speak, keeping a neutral point of view, ignoring the need of taking a side (very good!).
Pretty soon you'll be able to plan everything from the start like I do. ;3
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not. This game's been in a planning stage for at least a month prior to anything being done on the actual map.