Can you tell me how I can play a map on page 2-100?
Lets say as example "Zealot Frenzy", and please don't tell me that I just need 11 friends to join -.-
I think the main issue is that the "popular" page is the first page you see. If they implemented a "currently hosted" cyclic list that was the first page, and another tab that was "popular", then everyone would be happy. Proponents of the current system would just go to the "popular" tab, while the sheep that never do anything but look at page 1 games would be given a large expanse of games to look at. Oh, and most of the tabs we currently have should be moved to the game creation page, instead of the game joining page, to clear things up.
And when I say "currently hosted", I don't mean naming lobbies, I mean just any map that has at least one public lobby waiting to start (to remove the drivel that no one is playing).
Notice how that was an extremely easy to implement, extremely simple solution that keeps things almost completely the same while changing everything? Yeah.
And please stop bashing the WC3 system as being covered with DOTA, that happened YEARS after release (I admit DOTA was more popular than most maps, but it didn't take up more than a quarter of the page for the years I played). The main issue was that you couldn't host without port forwarding (meaning if you had a fucking confusing firewall you just had to wait for someone to host a game for you).
Can you tell me how I can play a map on page 2-100? Lets say as example "Zealot Frenzy", and please don't tell me that I just need 11 friends to join -.-
No, I can't, nor can you suggest a system which is as time-efficient and quality controlled as the current system.
I don't want to wait longer and have the front page diluted by potentially poor maps, just because there might be a diamond in the rough out there.
99% of the maps past page 1 are trash. That is the issue.
The popsys is a brutal quality control engine that keeps uncreative or unfun maps in the abyss. People need to stop lying to themselves about why their map isn't on page 1 and start taking some responsibility and action about making their maps more creative and actually fun.
Name any map and I will tell you right here why it isn't on page one.
No, I can't, nor can you suggest a system which is as time-efficient and quality controlled as the current system.
I don't want to wait longer and have the front page diluted by potentially poor maps, just because there might be a diamond in the rough out there.
99% of the maps past page 1 are trash. That is the issue.
The popsys is a brutal quality control engine that keeps uncreative or unfun maps in the abyss. People need to stop lying to themselves about why their map isn't on page 1 and start taking some responsibility and action about making their maps more creative and actually fun.
Name any map and I will tell you right here why it isn't on page one.
I think there are great and sucky maps from page 1 to 100. In page 1 alone, I like only 2 maps. So the entire custom map system for me, only exists 2 maps. Unlike the old system, the custom scene exists hundreds of maps because I could play any of them. It is like a candyland in the old system! I can spend countless hours playing countless maps.
But candy is bad and makes you fat. SC2 is very healthy, with only 2 maps in existence, I rarely play it after I exhaust the fun from those 2 maps. After maybe a few days of play, I'm done with the custom map games. Slim and healthy!
As a player, I'd love to see some improvements in the Fun or Not system. Right now I only play Fun or Not maps in Starcraft. But sometimes its quite annoying to find a good map there. I feel Fun or Not system is still on its early stages and it will get some updates in the future. I'd want to see some of theese:
- Don't display a map to the user if he previously stated that map is not fun. Maybe only display that map again when it gets a major update.
- Allow the user to filter the maps by mode. They should add some additional game modes.
- Allow the player to reject a map while in the lobby and jump to the next one in the playlist.
- Allow the user to choose from 3 different maps.
I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't hate the current system doesn't play custom maps very often. Its the same as someone going to a theme park for 30 minutes and then telling everyone to stop complaining that it only has one ride. Even if it is a fairly decent ride, the fact is that after a couple rides it gets pretty boring... Yet after going for half an hour and riding the ride once, you would have no complaints!
Replayability (the only reason I'll ever buy a game) is complete shit.
And you don't need to tell me why a game isn't on page one. I can understand why Cat N Mouse will never be on page one. What I can't understand is why half the time there is no one playing it (even though if I were playing WC3, I could get a lobby of it to fill in seconds with people who would love the game).
Edit:
To those who say they don't want to see crap makes pop up in any other sort of system (besides popularity), I understand its scary to try new things, but if you want to play on the jungle gym you have to be ready to scrape your knee every once in a while.
I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't hate the current system doesn't play custom maps very often. Its the same as someone going to a theme park for 30 minutes and then telling everyone to stop complaining that it only has one ride.
I'm assuming thats a bash on the fact that after NINE YEARS the only map that has survived on WC3 is DotA? It wasn't always like that you know, only once everyone who wasn't a diehard DotA fan left the game because it was SO FRICKING OLD.
Reposting again. Simple Fix imo is Fun or Not being not retarded. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
I am absolutely dumfounded by your position. This is the kind of ignorant statement that can only be made by someone who has clearly never spent time playing maps past page one or is only trying to troll. I make it a point to play maps at page 10+ just to try things out and I have found numerous games that were really fun, but would never get to page 1 b/c it's not already there and people won't join...why because it's not on page one and people won't join. The entire system keeps the known popular and the unknown not. It has nothing to do with quality.
How can you say that you can't find good maps past page one? So you're telling me that if I just created a map and it's awesome, it will be on page 1 no matter what? I'm sorry that's not the case by any means. People have to play a map to get it on page one, it doesn't just start popular b/c it's good.
I'll give you one game that is wonderful and isn't on page one. It's called Flagship Battle. It's a great game, but hasn't got much play time. It's rising on the Up and Coming list and the popularity list b/c it is good. But it's not on page one. Why is that?
I would really love to understand why you think such a thing before I have to fly to Europe and slap some sense into you. I already want to go to meet this hot chick in Cork. It wouldn't be much of a detour and would be worth it.
I am absolutely dumfounded by your position. This is the kind of ignorant statement that can only be made by someone who has clearly never spent time playing maps past page one or is only trying to troll. I make it a point to play maps at page 10+ just to try things out and I have found numerous games that were really fun, but would never get to page 1 b/c it's not already there and people won't join...why because it's not on page one and people won't join. The entire system keeps the known popular and the unknown not. It has nothing to do with quality.
How can you say that you can't find good maps past page one? So you're telling me that if I just created a map and it's awesome, it will be on page 1 no matter what? I'm sorry that's not the case by any means. People have to play a map to get it on page one, it doesn't just start popular b/c it's good.
I'll give you one game that is wonderful and isn't on page one. It's called Flagship Battle. It's a great game, but hasn't got much play time. It's rising on the Up and Coming list and the popularity list b/c it is good. But it's not on page one. Why is that?
I would really love to understand why you think such a thing before I have to fly to Europe and slap some sense into you. I already want to go to meet this hot chick in Cork. It wouldn't be much of a detour and would be worth it.
Your statement is actually not true. If you really follow the custom map scene, Blizzard had stagnated the counter for the popular maps like Marine Arena, Star Battle, SotiS, etc etc. aka. sabotage the popular maps. During that day you see mid page maps like Debates, Smashcraft, Aiur Chef, StarJeweled to occupy page 2, Vexal TD, Left 2 Die to occupy top spots. However after Blizzard release the coup de tat on the counter of popular maps, after a certain period of time, they got back to top page.
That Blizzard experiment above concludes that no matter how you try to mix it, most players still look for SotiS, Marine Arena, Star Battle even if it's burried in page 56 or 89 or whatever. And those maps that have been given a chance to occupy top pages are still not performing well (in terms of popularity).
Having said that, I disagree that non popular maps = suck. Smashcraft is awesome! But it lacks element that makes it popular. Debates is genius, but not everyone loves to think. Well, let's say Canon in D is a great great song, but it will NEVER EVER beat Justin Bieber in terms of popularity... Heck take Rebecca's Black Friday song. It's so popular because it has the elements that make it popular.
I still think that fixing Fun or Not is the step that Blizzard has to make. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
I think a simple cyclic list of currently hosted games as the default tab with all the other tabs in place would work wonders. If you wanted to host a game, you could go to popular, up and coming, or fun or not, but if you were the usual drivel you would just join a currently hosted game.
The issue with fun or not is that the default tab people see is still the popularity list (never underestimate how lazy people are). And I don't think people would appreciate fun or not being the default tab.
As to why the same maps keep going to page one (even after being sent down by blizzard), its because people went "I only ever play Nexus Wars, but I guess I'll try something new after a couple games of Nexus Wars." Hence, Nexus Wars gets played more. Then they see that Nexus Wars is back at the top and only ever play Nexus Wars. It takes a long time to break people out of their normal habits. The best result would of course be them trying something new occasionally, and then more and more frequently. Because all the page 1 games go back to page one, the second step never happens.
That Blizzard experiment above concludes that no matter how you try to mix it, most players still look for SotiS, Marine Arena, Star Battle even if it's burried in page 56 or 89 or whatever. And those maps that have been given a chance to occupy top pages are still not performing well (in terms of popularity).
No, I'm sorry but this statement is the one that isn't entirely accurate. People search for those maps b/c they already know them. Someone on the Blizz SC2 forum put it nicely. It's inertia, objects in motion stay in motion. The reason people search for these maps is because they know they can get a game with them. That doesn't make them good, it just makes them able to play something without waiting, and in our instant gratification society, not having to wait is king.
I will grant that, most of the maps on page one are pretty polished, but that's because they get the plays and get the feedback, and thus continue to get updated. I played marine arena in Beta, it wasn't as polished as it is now, but it still got popular and is still popular because people know the name.
It's knowing the name. Just like brand recognition in advertising. Do the generic ravioli's really taste that much different than Chef Boyrdee? No, but you know the name so you're likely going to buy that one.
@Rodrigo I'm pretty sure Eiviyn is just trolling at this point.
@Eiviyn: Go
I would really love to understand why you think such a thing before I have to fly to Europe and slap some sense into you. I already want to go to meet this hot chick in Cork. It wouldn't be much of a detour and would be worth it.
Sorry toughguy, I'll change my opinions.
Flagship Battle operates on the same niche audience as Star Battle. I think Star Battle is the better map and there isn't the audience for both to be popular.
Ok. You asked for it. Why is iCJug not on page 1 if 1v1Obs Metal is? (99% of the users on Battle.net agree that iCJug is 10000x better than 1v1Obs Metal).
1v1obs does the job and iCJug doesn't bring enough to the table to warrant the wait time. Both these maps are basically tools, and they both work.
I also disagree with Eiviyn's position as some others in this post have too.
There are good maps past page 1; they just may not be as widely accessible. Eg there's plenty of popular movies but there's very good movies that aren't popular. Fortunately the movie industry has many legal and illegal ways you can obtain said movies. Granted though, you don't need 8 players to watch a movie... Which is why some form of the war3 system (integrated with popularity... tabs?) may work because I can't think of any other way.
Before DOTA, the system worked pretty damn good. It was a blast trying random maps even if they sucked it let you build up a huge map repertoire.
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@Eiviyn: Go
Can you tell me how I can play a map on page 2-100? Lets say as example "Zealot Frenzy", and please don't tell me that I just need 11 friends to join -.-
I think the main issue is that the "popular" page is the first page you see. If they implemented a "currently hosted" cyclic list that was the first page, and another tab that was "popular", then everyone would be happy. Proponents of the current system would just go to the "popular" tab, while the sheep that never do anything but look at page 1 games would be given a large expanse of games to look at. Oh, and most of the tabs we currently have should be moved to the game creation page, instead of the game joining page, to clear things up.
And when I say "currently hosted", I don't mean naming lobbies, I mean just any map that has at least one public lobby waiting to start (to remove the drivel that no one is playing).
Notice how that was an extremely easy to implement, extremely simple solution that keeps things almost completely the same while changing everything? Yeah.
And please stop bashing the WC3 system as being covered with DOTA, that happened YEARS after release (I admit DOTA was more popular than most maps, but it didn't take up more than a quarter of the page for the years I played). The main issue was that you couldn't host without port forwarding (meaning if you had a fucking confusing firewall you just had to wait for someone to host a game for you).
@HamsterBoo: Go
A "currently hosted" page would look the same as the popularity list. It's a stupid suggestion.
@Vexal
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Cyclic dumbass. Makes it completely 100% different. Yay for stupid people who don't even bother to read.*
No, I can't, nor can you suggest a system which is as time-efficient and quality controlled as the current system.
I don't want to wait longer and have the front page diluted by potentially poor maps, just because there might be a diamond in the rough out there.
99% of the maps past page 1 are trash. That is the issue.
The popsys is a brutal quality control engine that keeps uncreative or unfun maps in the abyss. People need to stop lying to themselves about why their map isn't on page 1 and start taking some responsibility and action about making their maps more creative and actually fun.
Name any map and I will tell you right here why it isn't on page one.
@HamsterBoo: Go
I don't think you're not an idiot.
Harsh but so true.
I think there are great and sucky maps from page 1 to 100. In page 1 alone, I like only 2 maps. So the entire custom map system for me, only exists 2 maps. Unlike the old system, the custom scene exists hundreds of maps because I could play any of them. It is like a candyland in the old system! I can spend countless hours playing countless maps.
But candy is bad and makes you fat. SC2 is very healthy, with only 2 maps in existence, I rarely play it after I exhaust the fun from those 2 maps. After maybe a few days of play, I'm done with the custom map games. Slim and healthy!
As a player, I'd love to see some improvements in the Fun or Not system. Right now I only play Fun or Not maps in Starcraft. But sometimes its quite annoying to find a good map there. I feel Fun or Not system is still on its early stages and it will get some updates in the future. I'd want to see some of theese:
- Don't display a map to the user if he previously stated that map is not fun. Maybe only display that map again when it gets a major update.
- Allow the user to filter the maps by mode. They should add some additional game modes.
- Allow the player to reject a map while in the lobby and jump to the next one in the playlist.
- Allow the user to choose from 3 different maps.
I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't hate the current system doesn't play custom maps very often. Its the same as someone going to a theme park for 30 minutes and then telling everyone to stop complaining that it only has one ride. Even if it is a fairly decent ride, the fact is that after a couple rides it gets pretty boring... Yet after going for half an hour and riding the ride once, you would have no complaints!
Replayability (the only reason I'll ever buy a game) is complete shit.
And you don't need to tell me why a game isn't on page one. I can understand why Cat N Mouse will never be on page one. What I can't understand is why half the time there is no one playing it (even though if I were playing WC3, I could get a lobby of it to fill in seconds with people who would love the game).
Edit: To those who say they don't want to see crap makes pop up in any other sort of system (besides popularity), I understand its scary to try new things, but if you want to play on the jungle gym you have to be ready to scrape your knee every once in a while.
Are you talking about SC2 or WC3?
@Eiviyn: Go
I'm assuming thats a bash on the fact that after NINE YEARS the only map that has survived on WC3 is DotA? It wasn't always like that you know, only once everyone who wasn't a diehard DotA fan left the game because it was SO FRICKING OLD.
But yes, I was talking about SC2.
Reposting again. Simple Fix imo is Fun or Not being not retarded. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
@Eiviyn: Go
I am absolutely dumfounded by your position. This is the kind of ignorant statement that can only be made by someone who has clearly never spent time playing maps past page one or is only trying to troll. I make it a point to play maps at page 10+ just to try things out and I have found numerous games that were really fun, but would never get to page 1 b/c it's not already there and people won't join...why because it's not on page one and people won't join. The entire system keeps the known popular and the unknown not. It has nothing to do with quality.
How can you say that you can't find good maps past page one? So you're telling me that if I just created a map and it's awesome, it will be on page 1 no matter what? I'm sorry that's not the case by any means. People have to play a map to get it on page one, it doesn't just start popular b/c it's good.
I'll give you one game that is wonderful and isn't on page one. It's called Flagship Battle. It's a great game, but hasn't got much play time. It's rising on the Up and Coming list and the popularity list b/c it is good. But it's not on page one. Why is that?
I would really love to understand why you think such a thing before I have to fly to Europe and slap some sense into you. I already want to go to meet this hot chick in Cork. It wouldn't be much of a detour and would be worth it.
Your statement is actually not true. If you really follow the custom map scene, Blizzard had stagnated the counter for the popular maps like Marine Arena, Star Battle, SotiS, etc etc. aka. sabotage the popular maps. During that day you see mid page maps like Debates, Smashcraft, Aiur Chef, StarJeweled to occupy page 2, Vexal TD, Left 2 Die to occupy top spots. However after Blizzard release the coup de tat on the counter of popular maps, after a certain period of time, they got back to top page.
That Blizzard experiment above concludes that no matter how you try to mix it, most players still look for SotiS, Marine Arena, Star Battle even if it's burried in page 56 or 89 or whatever. And those maps that have been given a chance to occupy top pages are still not performing well (in terms of popularity).
Having said that, I disagree that non popular maps = suck. Smashcraft is awesome! But it lacks element that makes it popular. Debates is genius, but not everyone loves to think. Well, let's say Canon in D is a great great song, but it will NEVER EVER beat Justin Bieber in terms of popularity... Heck take Rebecca's Black Friday song. It's so popular because it has the elements that make it popular.
I still think that fixing Fun or Not is the step that Blizzard has to make. Right now Fun or Not = Most Popular. It should have different logic that includes:
- Not in top 3 pages of Most Popular
- Games that has been voted NOT FUN for so many times by majority should not show up anymore. This could mean the map is not even finished yet or still in testing.
- Games that has been voted FUN for so many times and has shown up in the top 3 pages of the new Map pool of UPCOMING, should no longer be included in FUN or NOT
- Thus, the list of UPCOMING will not include Most Popular. and all the good hidden new maps will show up in the UPCOMING tabs.
- Now after X amount of time, as the number of good maps in the pool has increased, the criteria will change from Not in top 3 pages to Not in top 4 pages., then Not in top 5 pages etc. etc. Until Pop Reset, go back to Not in top 3 pages
@Maknyuzz: Go
I don't think it even requires up and coming.
I think a simple cyclic list of currently hosted games as the default tab with all the other tabs in place would work wonders. If you wanted to host a game, you could go to popular, up and coming, or fun or not, but if you were the usual drivel you would just join a currently hosted game.
The issue with fun or not is that the default tab people see is still the popularity list (never underestimate how lazy people are). And I don't think people would appreciate fun or not being the default tab.
As to why the same maps keep going to page one (even after being sent down by blizzard), its because people went "I only ever play Nexus Wars, but I guess I'll try something new after a couple games of Nexus Wars." Hence, Nexus Wars gets played more. Then they see that Nexus Wars is back at the top and only ever play Nexus Wars. It takes a long time to break people out of their normal habits. The best result would of course be them trying something new occasionally, and then more and more frequently. Because all the page 1 games go back to page one, the second step never happens.
Ok. Why is iCJug not on page 1 if 1v1Obs Metal is?
(99% of the users on Battle.net agree that iCJug is 10000x better than 1v1Obs Metal).
No, I'm sorry but this statement is the one that isn't entirely accurate. People search for those maps b/c they already know them. Someone on the Blizz SC2 forum put it nicely. It's inertia, objects in motion stay in motion. The reason people search for these maps is because they know they can get a game with them. That doesn't make them good, it just makes them able to play something without waiting, and in our instant gratification society, not having to wait is king.
I will grant that, most of the maps on page one are pretty polished, but that's because they get the plays and get the feedback, and thus continue to get updated. I played marine arena in Beta, it wasn't as polished as it is now, but it still got popular and is still popular because people know the name.
It's knowing the name. Just like brand recognition in advertising. Do the generic ravioli's really taste that much different than Chef Boyrdee? No, but you know the name so you're likely going to buy that one.
@Rodrigo I'm pretty sure Eiviyn is just trolling at this point.
Sorry toughguy, I'll change my opinions.
Flagship Battle operates on the same niche audience as Star Battle. I think Star Battle is the better map and there isn't the audience for both to be popular.
1v1obs does the job and iCJug doesn't bring enough to the table to warrant the wait time. Both these maps are basically tools, and they both work.
I also disagree with Eiviyn's position as some others in this post have too.
There are good maps past page 1; they just may not be as widely accessible. Eg there's plenty of popular movies but there's very good movies that aren't popular. Fortunately the movie industry has many legal and illegal ways you can obtain said movies. Granted though, you don't need 8 players to watch a movie... Which is why some form of the war3 system (integrated with popularity... tabs?) may work because I can't think of any other way.
Before DOTA, the system worked pretty damn good. It was a blast trying random maps even if they sucked it let you build up a huge map repertoire.