SC2Mapster

Dude man dude mr.sou! What's keeping you from upgrading to hots?! I've finished the campaign (disappointment for me), and nothing much left to do. Luckily mlg is keeping me busy. But I'm psyched and amp'd for the HoTS SC Expanded to get going, tbh I'm actually kinda hoping I can be part of it in some manner if you end up deeming it amicable. (Likely just suggestion /discussion oriented predominately towards Zerg I'd assume; maybe even act as a tester for you when I have the time)

Perhaps even start up some real time chats in-game or through another program when you are ready to begin the Brood over-haul.

So have you done any updates that involve hots yet? Do you plan on having versions for both WoL and HoTS or you just updating to hots?

And you actually are planning a brood overhaul like we discussed sometime in the future eh? That's cool news, looking forward to the progression of it all.

Ah that's a bummer to hear. If there's a good list of known bugs you don't think you'll be able to address or rectify ASAP you could throw together a list of known issues to give us so the community can help you out with reporting to you overlooked complications.

I know you have alot on your plate and I keep bothering you (I will make another list composed over time and better organized than last time with some ideas & findings) but with Baelrog I just cant figure out a way to use Egg Pop from queens in a beneficial way. Then I remembered an idea I may have proposed earlier that regarded Creep Tumors and somehow incorporating spawned broodlings in some way. Well i think this would be a great opportunity to fix /refine Egg Pop.

Instead of Egg Pop on eggs what if instead the ability was used on Creep Tumors and was Tumor Pop (Bio directly from queen so theoretically could pocess some type of dormant "eggs", I could find no lore to disprove the hypothesis)

Stick with me now, here is how it could be completely balanced yet still a logical asset. Change the Pop ability to cost 50e and spawn 2 Broodlings for 8 seconds, or 75e spawning 3 Broodlings for 8 seconds. 1st you have to preemptively lay the tumor costing 25 energy. 2nd dependant on your creep spread you may be sacrificing creep turf & it would be necessary to place another creep tumor costing another 25e. Even if you stock up creep tumors over a long game, each queen will only be able to pop 2-4 Creep Tumors with full energy, spawning only a few broodlings lasting only moments that have the potential to be wasted or avoided all together. I see it as an ability you would have to use correctly and has an opportunity cost /risk. Importantly a choice: "Do I need quick damage to defend this? Or will I benefit more from Transfuse?". Ive never seen energy or spawn based units as "free units" as forum goers always use to describe their discrepencies. But energy takes time, like minerals and vespene; so I view it as another resource you have to spend wisely and take the time to acquire (+min/ves cost of caster to begin with).

Honestly this is something similar to what I thought should have been in Vanilla Sc2 Ladder. Based on Terran having Planetary Fortress and Protoss now having Photon Over-Charge + Recall versus Zerg who get queens for default base defense; how much more dynamic and interesting would this make observing pro games. If instead of watching an entire long army sprint all the way across the map, many times too late, to contest Terran MMM snipe squads or 4x Charge-Lot Prism warp ins; Tumors preemtively set for drops popped! (Not killing or even coming close to killing off the entire drop, but perhaps buying zerg the time to properly react).

Thoughts?

Hey man, got around to using the updated Feederings and I've gotta say really cool stuff! I went for a mid/late hydra /3 queen + Ovie creep highway push versus AI to try em out. I wasn't sure if the part of the update that causes the Feederings to fall from the host when they died until I killed one of my own unit because I didn't really see any fall from the hydralisk that died in my push. So I'm wondering if you have feederlings set too high on the list of priority targets and they just blew up after the enemy units targeting the host instantly targeted the feederling when & where it fell? Also, I am a true Zerg at heart, but for the sake of balance I try to be unbiased and conservative. So I must admit +50 hp for any unit may just perhappps... Just maybeee be a tiny bit overpowered haha. (Particularly late game 3/3 cracklings with 85 hp). Yet +50 hp is completely suitable for other units. So I think I came up with an amicable solution if its possible and you can figure out how to do it in the editor.

Rather than a set health point increase perhaps you could change it into a + percentage of hp? +15% - +30% unit hp sounds about right. So +15% would end up being +5hp for zergling (if you think it's worth a potential +1 attack needed to kill the ling if you can afford and think its worth it I guess?) but then that's a +75hp for Ultralisk.

Unless you think it should be opposite and the lowered hp units should scale better than units already with a surplus hp? If so maybe instead then you could make it a higher percentage but put a hard cap on how much hp can be added. So like a +33% hp buff with a maximum of +50hp. Just some thoughts.

Please tell me you did not revert the DarkArchon Mind Control from permanent back to only 45 seconds? I was playing a game with a friend and I was trying to figure out why my map had changed to Novice and my changes were not in effect so I ended up just kind of adding Charge-Lot /Dark Archon in the background. Ended up with stacked energy and on next engagement MC'd enough to win. Bound my new units to CGs then panned frame to work macro. Few seconds later "your warriors are under attack". Quick space tap. All DarkArchons dead. Hahaha.

The issues have something todo with your update. Fixed with re-upload. I think permanent MZc was the correct move though. DA is a big risk /investment and even massed if you pull it off energy comes way slower than the enemy re maxing. Although to make it more risky during the engagement MC should prob drain all shields + the 150e like in scbw if you did not already have it like that.

@nolanstar - Predator cloak, I like it. I believe there is alot in store for this mod coming with the release of HotS

Vulture cloak? I suppose. What about an upgrade cloaked only while in motion or a cool down ability cloak for 3s 10s recharge.

I was playing toss and have some arbitrary thoughts. But mainly, regarding all Tribes, shouldn't the unit choice between Immortal /Reaver be Collosus /Reaver? Collosus was the Sc2 replacement for the Reaver in BW, and they have a very similar role. (Long range AoE siege). The only effect it would have is with the tribe that gets Stone that replace Collosus, and I'd say that would be an ok trade to forfeit both Col & Reaver and 1 tribe shouldn't dictate a unit niche for the rest?

I assumed all the broods were all BW intentionally because I noticed you chose not to use the Char Brood and the Queen of Blades as a hero unit. Keep in mind some of the Broods whereabouts are unknown. Well just have to see in HotS.

I had this curious idea that hit me. Initially it seemed far fetched, but actually it's more than causable.

Do you keep up Ponera and those guys, like MVP Doncroft & Zappy, over on the Sc2 Bnet forums. They've been doing alot YouTube videos and series like Poneras Anatomy of Starcraft (AoS) based on the Zerg.

Sometime time after hots release we can if we can get them to do an episode on Zerg Broods and structure but relate it to your mod. Broods would be a good episode for them. And they would give good lore concepts in regards broods, unique specialization, and types of units - numbers vs brute force - and research each brood may have. Then later we can the lore aspects and address the mechanics/balance.

One focus I think we (or you haha) should make is themes/specialization for each brood. Like revolving around district styles of play; which is what I was going for in my overhaul.

Oh yea, this would also give the mod a bit of much needed publicity.

But man o man. Mercy. I just played the map I was able to upload with a friend who is still becoming oriented to the game. Just versus two Harder AI, but with the new AI features and because my friend still has alot I need to teach him, as we learned in the middle of game, it ended up getting quite hectic. Vaha, and I've gotta say it turned out to be the most fun I've had playing starcraft in some time. Man did my APM spike with Tiamat when I realized the AI pushes were begging to gain ground on us. Good stuff. It did however cause me to contemplate again some changes I mentioned and aspects of the overhaul concept. I'll attempt to refine and better articulate some of it later. Just keep in mind, my feedback was only an outline we could build together in discussion; and I didn't really come up with the specific specs/data & just extend ideas left for you to manipulate or overlook entirely at your discretion.

Very tired. But I love Zerg and love your mod; so do let me know if I can be of any aid.

Oh no real need to formulate an in-depth response, those were just some I jotted down as I played. I attempted to give those two long posts some structure, but it all still ended up pretty convoluted and disorganized. But don't take it all as the literal changes I proposed, it's broad and just an outline. To give an example of what I mean, when I said maybe the Torrasque could respawn I didn't mean to insinuate at no cost or sacrifice.

This is just an outline and perspective incase it gives you any ideas. I know a complete overhaul like this would be quite time consuming and practically change the way you designed the mod for Zerg.

SC Expanded - Overhaul Opinion

Have you thought of increaseing the Supply Cap to 250 or even 300 for any maps?

I feel obligated to go Tiamat because of the breeding mounds, but because in SC lore the Tiamat aided the other broods as needed with their specialized units I had the idea that the units made from the Tiamat breeding mound should be allocated throughout the other Broods dependant on their specialization, except the Yggdrasill and Hunter Killer, which should remain in the Tiamat Brood.So the Broods with Tiamat specialized units will each be able to make breeding mounds and their unique Tiamat unit.

Also based on SC Lore I would change around some of the Brood's specializations (Enables, Replaces, Disables)

Baelrog: Command Wing. Terror squad Enables - Breeding Mounds from Drones - Devouring Ones from Breeding Mounds - Consume ability from Queens - Frenzy ability from Overseers Replaces Defilers with Unclean Ones Disables Infestor

Garm: Attack Wing. Hit and Run Enables - Breeding Mounds from Drones - Kukulza from Breeding Mounds - Rapid Genesis research at the Spawning Pool (Zerglings will hatch 33% faster) - Peristalsis research at the Infestation Pit (Faster Infestor movement speed while burrowed) Replaces - Nydus Network with Zerg Sac (Drop Pod) Disables

Grendel: Core Defenses Enables - Breeding Mounds from Drones - Prowlers from Breeding Mounds - Virophages from Drones (Defensive structures) - Zerg Structure Carapace upgrade at the Evolution Chamber - Ensnare ability from Queens Replaces Disables

Hybrid Slaves: Enables Replaces Disables

Jormugand: Attack Wing. Massive numbers and brute force Enables - Feederlings from Larvae - Torrasque at the Hive (Requires Ultralisk Cavern) - Embryonic Splits research at the Spawning Pool (Zerglings hatch in groups of 4 from each egg. Increases the cost for spawn Zergling to 75 Minerals.) - Egg Pop ability from Queens Replaces Disables

Leviathan: Air Focus Enables - Leviathan at the Hive (Requires Greater Spire) - Guardians from Mutalisks (Requires Greater Spire) - Devourers from Mutalisks (Requires Greater Spire) Replaces - Corruptors with Scourge Disables - Brood Lords

"By the Second Great War, scourges could be spawned from leviathans."

Surtur: Attack Wing. Furious rampages Enables - Omegalisk at the Hive (Requires Ultralisk Cavern) - Posthumous Mitosis research at the Hatchery (Queens spawn 2 Broodlings upon death) - Frenzy ability from Overseers Replaces - Ultralisk with Brutalisks (Requires Ultralisk Cavern) Disables

Tiamat: Command Wing. Command Enables - Breeding Mounds from Drones - Yggdrasill and Hunter Killer from Breeding Mounds - Antennae research at the Lair (Increases Overlord & Overseer sight) - Faster Queen Movement - Deep Tunnel research at the Lair (The queen tunnels deep underground, surfacing at a friendly target zerg building. The queen can effectively "teleport" underground to a friendly base. This ability can be used only while the queen is on the creep.) Replaces Disables

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Arbitrary Ideas: - Increased Health Regeneration research (Unit specifics possibly dependant on how big the increase is, maybe for the entire race it could be an only on creep modifier /not in combat?) - Increased Energy Regeneration research - upgrade so creep tumors spawn 1-2 temporary Broodlings upon death like buildings do. - Upgrade to increase Broodling life-span to 13 (Including Brood Lord Broodlings) - Broodling or Spawnling mounds from drones (Basically a Swarm Host inert structure)

Alright I have more extensively messed around with the mod and I've had many and... Extemporaneous thoughts regarding Zerg. Ha don't get overwhelmed or anything, just some ideas.

SC Expanded - Broods

Baelrog: - Egg Pop: The Broodlings spawned from Egg Pop need to last indefinately because it costs both energy and resources for the ability to function. (Will likely have to create a new unit in editor based on the Broodlings I believe?)

Garm: - Peristalsis: Needs to disable Defilers /Re-enable Infestors

Grendel: - Feederlings: Need a speed boost modifier while on Creep. (A pretty cool upgrade could be they do not die with their host and leap /spawn from them after they die; so there would be a slight chance of retaining them with a little micro during battles) Supply cap comes real easy - Ensnare: Should cost 50 energy, down from 75e. Increased Range. - Posthumous Mitosis: The broodlings that spawn when the queen dies need to last indefinetely until killed. (No timer)

Hybrid Slaves: - Infested Zealot: Lifespan inscreased to 45 or 60 seconds. No research. And Defilers should also gain the ability. - Hybrid: Range 1 instead of melee. Make Constricting Slime bring down air units so they can be attacked by ground attacks? Perhaps the Ultralisk Evolution choice could also affect Hybrids.

Jormugand: - Virophage: Sight radius needs to be increased. I'm not sure if the AoE should hit friendly units. Very expensive and immobile, maybe it can also serve as a radar like the terrain tower and could track nearby bio units? (Bug: Cannot destroy Refineries) - Structure Carapace: Could also effect Drones? (Name change of course) - I feel this Brood is lacking. If it is all about defense maybe there can be an upgrade so creep tumors spawn 1-2 temporary broodlings upon death like buildings do.

Leviathan: - Leviathan: could use faster energy regen. I am unable to manually select targets for the Leviathan to attack (Does not seem to prioritize targets correctly; for instance remains attacking supply depots while there are repairing SCVs). - Lesser Adrenal Gland reseach: I could not find this upgrade at the Spawning Pool, or anywhere.

Surtur: - Brutalisk: Should cost more than Ultralisk, like 350/250. Maybe need a seperate ground and air attack, ground being melee air remaining same. Ultralisk Evolution selection should apply to Brutalisk as well. Maybe Brutalisk should replace Ultralisk entirely.

Tiamat: - Breeding Mounds: - Yggdrasill: Not affected by Zerg Flyer Carapace upgrades. Should have Generate Creep ability. - Devouring One: - Prowler: - Hunter Killer: Currently costs nothing but supply. intended? - Kukulza: - Torrasque: Timer Respawn @ Death? (Like in BW, not the ability to make again but a literal respawn)

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General: - Burrow Charge: I'm not sure if this is working as intended. Usually it fails and nothing is pushed back or harmed. The Ultralisk seems to burrow and then just immediately unburrow.

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Evolution Options: I think roach +4 to light may need to gain +2 each missile upgrade, or else it does not really kill anything massed with less roach hits.

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Evolution Strains: Raptor: quite gas intensive? Defiler: - Metasynaptic Node: Should increase the maximum energy of the Defiler by 25-50. Starting energy is a bit redundant because of consume.

Well when I do a search for Left 2 it shows the Left 2 Die mod by blizzard is 1.2. You would be able to add the missing unit hotkeys to the ingame keybinding options you think? And yea I wouldn't mind attempting to give some feedback regarding Zerg, I have some ideas and am pretty conservative towards balance. Your mod is my favorite out of all the expanded melees I've found, so I can play around a bit more and see what I come up with.

Like for instance, this could be impossible in editor, but I had this idea of queen injects on breeding mounds that stack and for each inject allows two units to be trained simultaneously like a reactor.

Honestly I'm not sure why it is referring to the 1.1 it let me finally upload on a new map but after I changed some of the unit button keys from the editor it gave me the error again and I'm unable to update. Basically what I had in mind was to alter hotkeys in editor that I can't change in-game (like defiler spells and lurker burrow). Then I wanted to add a few maps for variation and had this idea to alter the starting locations to gold and triple their capacity. Gives like a better main base feel, as you'll still be able to mine from it most of the game you know. And good fall back if you lose an expansion.

Off-Topic Feedback* Zerg player Overseer Parasite - higher risk than changeling, I feel should last way longer or even indefinitely. Hero Units - perhaps they should be like Mothership, and you can have only one at a time but can remake them.