I don't have a league, but the last time I tried the placements, it for whatever reason stuck me in Platinum, a level I didn't feel like keeping up with, and by that I mean I didn't feel like microing stalkers to death due to worthless charge-less zealots vs. marines/stalkers. That was a while ago.
Weird, as I recall, SC1 Devourer didn't reduce armor of targets it hit. It lowered the attack rate and could stack up to 9 times, dropping somethings attack rate to.... I don't know exactly, but it felt like 1/3 the speed or something. But if the Devourer is to now lower the armor of its targets and still attacks as slow as SC1 version, then I'd say something like -1 armor per attack up to 5 times or something. In order to keep it balanced, the actual duration of this would be very short instead of long like it used to be. Prolonged attacking would mean their armor is permanently down by that amount until the devourers are gone or severely dropped in number. It pretty much makes them a tangible target in a fight. I would also keep their about the same as a Void Ray's and their speed either equal to a Viking or less than.
On a random note, even though it's the SC2 balance, I still think Snipe should be changed back to 45 straight damage and only 25 damage to armored/massive or something. The way it is right now is literally pointless to having except against one unit, which is very stupid especially considering how every other unit/ability is multi-purpose at least in that it can affect more than one unit.
I saw devourers in SC1 as tanky air units with a really good support role. Their damage was fairly mediocre, considering their attack speed. I'd personally be all for devourers taking this same role in for this version. Seeing as corruptors are more about damage (namely anti-battlecruiser/carrier), the two of them would contrast on their roles while both being air-to-air units. Regarding its tankiness, I'm not talking as strong as a battlecruiser, but probably akin to about a Void Ray's strength (battlecruiser should still be able to one-shot it with Yamato Gun). Its damage... I'm fine with its effect being AoE (like in SC1), but not with its damage being AoE. Even if it's not that high of a damage output, if its damage is AoE, by having a dozen, that'd pretty much be instant gg to any airforce, especially seeing how air units love stacking up.
And yes, Guardian splash damage would be awesome.
I haven't touched this game for a while, mainly cause I suck at SC2 and usually can't find anyone on my skill level to play it with.
So, original post in the thread says Friday (today). And I do believe the time would be about now, so... everyone still up for map night or am I misreading something?
I'll try to be there. Is there a specific date or do we all just go for it every night or something? I might or might not be up for it tonight, should definitely be good tomorrow night after 8pm EST though.
They could be anti-ranged ability, similar to the point defense drone but something that can also backfire. Essentially, anything ranged trying to a shoot a target through the wasp cluster instead hits the wasp cluster. So it'd be a small AoE ranged fire blocker, something that affects both the opponent and yourself. I think it's fine if the Defiler acts differently from the Infestor. In fact, I honestly think this ability should replace Dark Swarm just cause well... Dark Swarm is broken.
Alternatively, if you do want them to be spammable, then what they ought to do is forcefully taunt the enemy into attacking them while also dealing out light damage. Now, anything that slaughters lights would kill the swarm instantly, but if the only ranged firepower the enemy has is, say, void rays, they're pretty much screwed. It might be a little broken if the taunt was a straight passive on the wasp cluster, so perhaps it'd just be an auto-cast taunt everything in 5 range for 1 second, cooldown 2 seconds. That way the enemy is at least capable of running away if they need to.
Just throwin' some ideas out there. As for what the target option is, just a small AoE reticule, aka anywhere.
Here's a funny bug - take a bunch of rebels and have them shoot moving spine crawlers. The result? Mass fireworks. I have no idea what's causing it, but personally, I think it's frigin' cool.
Does loading rebels into an APC increase its damage or no? I had someone else click on the APC and its damage was only 10 even with 6 rebels loaded. Unless it doesn't list the modifications, like stimpack and broadcast.
By the way, Agria Valley is forced to do human vs. computer. Can you open up that slot so that it enables two human players?
One more thing - the sound Miners make when mining mineral fields is... I wouldn't mind it if it was just on the initial cast, but the fact that it's continuous makes it annoying and for me to not want to build them. Also, could you make it so their mine ability is by defaulted set to auto-cast, such that you can just send 8 miners to an area and they'll automatically mine the nearby fields?
Do the Rebels' Molotovs do a stacking damage-over-time in a small area when they hit the ground? If not, I'd recommend that, something that lasts maybe 3 seconds and does 2 damage per second (infinite stack). I wouldn't consider it overpowered considering they're fairly short-ranged.
You could make Kinetic Impulse only work for Protoss units. Or better yet, only units that have a projectile (marines hit instantly, marauders would actually work fine with Kinetic Impulse).
On the contrary, one of those should go to Mutalisks (this upgrade wouldn't be available until you get Greater Spire). They're an amazing raid unit, yes, but the Zerg need the Mutalisk as a good aerial combat unit for its light armored air unit, and it's... alrightish. So I'mma toss some ideas around.
Double bouncing glaive - two bouncing glaives shoot off from each initial attack instead of one. Might be too strong, though it would matter little to heavily-armored units.
Enrage - gives an ability that causes the Mutalisk to have increased attack and movement speed for a short period of time. However, it takes 50% increased damage during this time.
Focused shot - Turns Mutalisk's standard glaive attack into a focused shot that doesn't bounce, dealing more damage to a single target. I... have no idea really.
Rapid Regeneration - Copying the reapers by doubling the mutalisks' standard health regeneration. *shot*
A tech option for the zergling isn't completely necessary seeing as there's one for the roach already. For Overlord... oh dear god, shoot me for this idea. This is just for kicks and giggles cause it's stupidly overpowered, but the ability to unload units.... that are stored into the Nydus Canal. Okay, seriously thinking, probably an upgrade that increases its storage capacity to carrying 10 or 12 slots. Other upgrades might be lingering presence - wherever the Overlord goes, the amount of time before fog-of-war covers the area is increased (no idea if that's possible).
Possible Overseer upgrades might be....... I have no idea really, lol. That's all I got on my end for now.
If Immortals had the ability to attack air, all I'd ever build are Immortals, Colossi, and Phoenixes. Now unless it plants itself into the ground for a few seconds and then becomes specifically an anti-air turret... actually, that sounds cool, lol. Would the carrier shield be an ability or passive? If it's passive, then it's pretty much is like the ultralisk upgrade.
Regarding the negate shield, what it could do is simply negate the next attack coming in and then it just goes on cooldown for say 5 seconds before being available again (obviously, this would be auto-castable).
In that case, it may be a good idea to apply that upgrade to the Sentry. Usually (or at least from what I've seen), people grabs lots of sentries. Their damage output isn't particularly good and is in fact hardly noticeable, however this type of upgrade would further make them a formidable opponent to marine/marauder/medivac. Though that might make the sentry a bit too strong against that combination. It would give greater point to disabling repairs to battlecruisers and thors though (and in HotS, the Warhound and Battle Hellions). Given that it is a single attack and that you really wouldn't want too many sentries though, I can see it working. By the way, would this include blocking the Queen's Transfusion ability or say a shield battery's shield regeneration?
Ooh, I got a great idea. Stick it on the Colossus! Or better yet, the Carrier. Totally needs it.[/sarcasm]
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Something else - you made the Dragoon identical in stats to the Stalker. While stats between SC1 and SC2 are not the same, they are similar, and the Dragoon did have higher damage. So if we were to port the actual Dragoon straight over, it'd have 100 hitpoints, and its attack would translate to 10 damage w/ 20 versus armored (+2 per upgrade). The flipside is that it would be a slower attack than a Stalker, meaning that it's even less effective versus light targets but should be a little bit better against armored, especially once upgraded.
One of the issues with the Stalker is that its damage output isn't particularly great, so when you get a bunch of them, well... it's not nearly worth getting more than a dozen. However, it makes up for that in mobility, especially with Blink. My suggestion would be to alter the Dragoon to be like the SC1 version, except keeping it at 80 hitpoints rather than buffing it up to 100. This way, it would differ more from the Stalker in that its ability to raid would be nearly nonexistent, but (especially with its range upgrade), it'd prove to be a higher damaging ranged unit that's worth getting more than a dozen of. Of course, the other tradeoff is (due to the lower attack speed) it does less damage to light units, so against a mutalisk raid, it'd be a bit screwed (not that it already wasn't).
Another shield ability for Zealots could be like the Iconus Guardian's shield effect from Sins of a Solar Empire. Essentially, the Zealot's shields will take a portion of the damage done to a nearby allied unit (usually another Zealot). So if a nearby Zealot takes 6 damage from an attack, 2 of that damage might go to another Zealot. This is especially useful against marines if shield upgrades are grabbed that would help mitigate the damage. The shield effect would be something that's passive but disabled when the Zealot runs out of shields.
Though if you're interested in a more offensive ability, perhaps they could get a splash ability that doesn't actually do damage, but instead it stuns all units in an arc in front of the zealot for a short period of time. Problem with that is that usually Zealots will die prior to that point especially against Terrans, but hey, it may be useful still.
Regarding the red laser... I assume you would not be able to have both the healing and the red laser active at the same time? Granted you'd run out of energy pretty fast even if you could have them both together, but a battle can end pretty quickly too, so... sounds like a cool idea, I'd just have it so that only one can be active at a time.
I tried the alternate zealot tech upgrade. It's... not that great. Whole point of charge is so that zealots are able to move in and actually get some damage in before they die. Without it, the zealots are unable to ever get close, and by the time they do, they're already dead or close to it, thus defeating any purpose of being a melee shield. I suppose another upgrade you could try would be the SC1 straight movement speed upgrade.
Also, regarding the lurker suggestion I had earlier to nerf the range increase from +3 to +2 - I stand corrected, it needs the +3, lol. Are widow mines really only 75/25 in the HotS game? Or is that just a guess? I figured they'd be a bit stronger, given their power and ability to completely obliterate armies or key units.
The version of the reaver you have in the expanded mod is considerably different from SC1. It does little splash and serves better versus bringing down large targets now over smaller targets. I had a base razed by 6 reavers in under a minute. So reavers would be great against Thor, Marauders even, Ultralisks, everything the Immortal was good against. It's actually better than the Immortal versus these units, but it sacrifices durability and mobility for it. So I agree with its current position as the alternative to the Immortal.
The Firebat is an iffy unit. Great against Zealot swarm, great against Zergling swarm.... that's about it. It won't hit a baneling before it gets close enough to explode, and it can't do crap to an Ultralisk. With the addition of the Battlemode Hellion coming in, the Firebat will essentially be obsoleted. If you get Firebats and the enemy Terran force gets Marauders, you're screwed. Stalkers/Dragoons, you're screwed. It eliminates your ability to take care of armored units right off the bat, making it such that you pretty much specialize against light. It can work, especially in team situations, but it's not very likely. The issue is that it's short-ranged and usually dies before it's able to fulfill its purpose. A zealot is more durable than a firebat. An armor upgrade does seem more suitable for the firebat as opposed to a damage upgrade. I don't know if the Firebat should stay or not honestly. I always get Marauders every time, and it usually does better. Trying to do Terran infantry ball without Marauders is pretty much impossible.
Speaking of more things with no upgrades, Warfield's ship has 3 armor upgrades yet not weapon upgrades. Air upgrades do not upgrade that in the slightest either, thus making Warfield's ship more durable than a standard battlecruiser but with less firepower. Dunno if that's actually intended or not.
Also, is the Purifier supposed to be able to move while it's using Planet Cracker? I understand it's supposed to be used in conjunction with another Mothership using Vortex, but considering how long it takes to charge up, I figured it'd be appropriate if it could move.
Regarding the bone wasps, it wouldn't be too broken. Any large fleet or army would overrun the base anyways - this would give a greater defense against smaller attacks, which I feel Zerg don't have as well as Terrans/Protoss (superior scanning abilities like Sensor Towers and Observers for one). However, if it is something that's permanent, the ability should probably cost 125 or 150, so that it can only really be spammed with lots of queens, which most people aren't going to get that many. Could prove to be a new strategy with the Zerg (I am familiar of the Queen spam strategy right off the bat; this would make it more viable).
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I don't have a league, but the last time I tried the placements, it for whatever reason stuck me in Platinum, a level I didn't feel like keeping up with, and by that I mean I didn't feel like microing stalkers to death due to worthless charge-less zealots vs. marines/stalkers. That was a while ago.
Weird, as I recall, SC1 Devourer didn't reduce armor of targets it hit. It lowered the attack rate and could stack up to 9 times, dropping somethings attack rate to.... I don't know exactly, but it felt like 1/3 the speed or something. But if the Devourer is to now lower the armor of its targets and still attacks as slow as SC1 version, then I'd say something like -1 armor per attack up to 5 times or something. In order to keep it balanced, the actual duration of this would be very short instead of long like it used to be. Prolonged attacking would mean their armor is permanently down by that amount until the devourers are gone or severely dropped in number. It pretty much makes them a tangible target in a fight. I would also keep their about the same as a Void Ray's and their speed either equal to a Viking or less than.
On a random note, even though it's the SC2 balance, I still think Snipe should be changed back to 45 straight damage and only 25 damage to armored/massive or something. The way it is right now is literally pointless to having except against one unit, which is very stupid especially considering how every other unit/ability is multi-purpose at least in that it can affect more than one unit.
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I saw devourers in SC1 as tanky air units with a really good support role. Their damage was fairly mediocre, considering their attack speed. I'd personally be all for devourers taking this same role in for this version. Seeing as corruptors are more about damage (namely anti-battlecruiser/carrier), the two of them would contrast on their roles while both being air-to-air units. Regarding its tankiness, I'm not talking as strong as a battlecruiser, but probably akin to about a Void Ray's strength (battlecruiser should still be able to one-shot it with Yamato Gun). Its damage... I'm fine with its effect being AoE (like in SC1), but not with its damage being AoE. Even if it's not that high of a damage output, if its damage is AoE, by having a dozen, that'd pretty much be instant gg to any airforce, especially seeing how air units love stacking up.
And yes, Guardian splash damage would be awesome.
I haven't touched this game for a while, mainly cause I suck at SC2 and usually can't find anyone on my skill level to play it with.
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So, original post in the thread says Friday (today). And I do believe the time would be about now, so... everyone still up for map night or am I misreading something?
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I'll try to be there. Is there a specific date or do we all just go for it every night or something? I might or might not be up for it tonight, should definitely be good tomorrow night after 8pm EST though.
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They could be anti-ranged ability, similar to the point defense drone but something that can also backfire. Essentially, anything ranged trying to a shoot a target through the wasp cluster instead hits the wasp cluster. So it'd be a small AoE ranged fire blocker, something that affects both the opponent and yourself. I think it's fine if the Defiler acts differently from the Infestor. In fact, I honestly think this ability should replace Dark Swarm just cause well... Dark Swarm is broken.
Alternatively, if you do want them to be spammable, then what they ought to do is forcefully taunt the enemy into attacking them while also dealing out light damage. Now, anything that slaughters lights would kill the swarm instantly, but if the only ranged firepower the enemy has is, say, void rays, they're pretty much screwed. It might be a little broken if the taunt was a straight passive on the wasp cluster, so perhaps it'd just be an auto-cast taunt everything in 5 range for 1 second, cooldown 2 seconds. That way the enemy is at least capable of running away if they need to.
Just throwin' some ideas out there. As for what the target option is, just a small AoE reticule, aka anywhere.
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Here's a funny bug - take a bunch of rebels and have them shoot moving spine crawlers. The result? Mass fireworks. I have no idea what's causing it, but personally, I think it's frigin' cool.
Does loading rebels into an APC increase its damage or no? I had someone else click on the APC and its damage was only 10 even with 6 rebels loaded. Unless it doesn't list the modifications, like stimpack and broadcast.
By the way, Agria Valley is forced to do human vs. computer. Can you open up that slot so that it enables two human players?
One more thing - the sound Miners make when mining mineral fields is... I wouldn't mind it if it was just on the initial cast, but the fact that it's continuous makes it annoying and for me to not want to build them. Also, could you make it so their mine ability is by defaulted set to auto-cast, such that you can just send 8 miners to an area and they'll automatically mine the nearby fields?
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Do the Rebels' Molotovs do a stacking damage-over-time in a small area when they hit the ground? If not, I'd recommend that, something that lasts maybe 3 seconds and does 2 damage per second (infinite stack). I wouldn't consider it overpowered considering they're fairly short-ranged.
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You could make Kinetic Impulse only work for Protoss units. Or better yet, only units that have a projectile (marines hit instantly, marauders would actually work fine with Kinetic Impulse).
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On the contrary, one of those should go to Mutalisks (this upgrade wouldn't be available until you get Greater Spire). They're an amazing raid unit, yes, but the Zerg need the Mutalisk as a good aerial combat unit for its light armored air unit, and it's... alrightish. So I'mma toss some ideas around.
Double bouncing glaive - two bouncing glaives shoot off from each initial attack instead of one. Might be too strong, though it would matter little to heavily-armored units.
Enrage - gives an ability that causes the Mutalisk to have increased attack and movement speed for a short period of time. However, it takes 50% increased damage during this time.
Focused shot - Turns Mutalisk's standard glaive attack into a focused shot that doesn't bounce, dealing more damage to a single target. I... have no idea really.
Rapid Regeneration - Copying the reapers by doubling the mutalisks' standard health regeneration. *shot*
A tech option for the zergling isn't completely necessary seeing as there's one for the roach already. For Overlord... oh dear god, shoot me for this idea. This is just for kicks and giggles cause it's stupidly overpowered, but the ability to unload units.... that are stored into the Nydus Canal. Okay, seriously thinking, probably an upgrade that increases its storage capacity to carrying 10 or 12 slots. Other upgrades might be lingering presence - wherever the Overlord goes, the amount of time before fog-of-war covers the area is increased (no idea if that's possible).
Possible Overseer upgrades might be....... I have no idea really, lol. That's all I got on my end for now.
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If Immortals had the ability to attack air, all I'd ever build are Immortals, Colossi, and Phoenixes. Now unless it plants itself into the ground for a few seconds and then becomes specifically an anti-air turret... actually, that sounds cool, lol. Would the carrier shield be an ability or passive? If it's passive, then it's pretty much is like the ultralisk upgrade.
Regarding the negate shield, what it could do is simply negate the next attack coming in and then it just goes on cooldown for say 5 seconds before being available again (obviously, this would be auto-castable).
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@SoulFilcher: Go
In that case, it may be a good idea to apply that upgrade to the Sentry. Usually (or at least from what I've seen), people grabs lots of sentries. Their damage output isn't particularly good and is in fact hardly noticeable, however this type of upgrade would further make them a formidable opponent to marine/marauder/medivac. Though that might make the sentry a bit too strong against that combination. It would give greater point to disabling repairs to battlecruisers and thors though (and in HotS, the Warhound and Battle Hellions). Given that it is a single attack and that you really wouldn't want too many sentries though, I can see it working. By the way, would this include blocking the Queen's Transfusion ability or say a shield battery's shield regeneration?
Ooh, I got a great idea. Stick it on the Colossus! Or better yet, the Carrier. Totally needs it.[/sarcasm]
-Something else - you made the Dragoon identical in stats to the Stalker. While stats between SC1 and SC2 are not the same, they are similar, and the Dragoon did have higher damage. So if we were to port the actual Dragoon straight over, it'd have 100 hitpoints, and its attack would translate to 10 damage w/ 20 versus armored (+2 per upgrade). The flipside is that it would be a slower attack than a Stalker, meaning that it's even less effective versus light targets but should be a little bit better against armored, especially once upgraded.
One of the issues with the Stalker is that its damage output isn't particularly great, so when you get a bunch of them, well... it's not nearly worth getting more than a dozen. However, it makes up for that in mobility, especially with Blink. My suggestion would be to alter the Dragoon to be like the SC1 version, except keeping it at 80 hitpoints rather than buffing it up to 100. This way, it would differ more from the Stalker in that its ability to raid would be nearly nonexistent, but (especially with its range upgrade), it'd prove to be a higher damaging ranged unit that's worth getting more than a dozen of. Of course, the other tradeoff is (due to the lower attack speed) it does less damage to light units, so against a mutalisk raid, it'd be a bit screwed (not that it already wasn't).
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Another shield ability for Zealots could be like the Iconus Guardian's shield effect from Sins of a Solar Empire. Essentially, the Zealot's shields will take a portion of the damage done to a nearby allied unit (usually another Zealot). So if a nearby Zealot takes 6 damage from an attack, 2 of that damage might go to another Zealot. This is especially useful against marines if shield upgrades are grabbed that would help mitigate the damage. The shield effect would be something that's passive but disabled when the Zealot runs out of shields.
Though if you're interested in a more offensive ability, perhaps they could get a splash ability that doesn't actually do damage, but instead it stuns all units in an arc in front of the zealot for a short period of time. Problem with that is that usually Zealots will die prior to that point especially against Terrans, but hey, it may be useful still.
Regarding the red laser... I assume you would not be able to have both the healing and the red laser active at the same time? Granted you'd run out of energy pretty fast even if you could have them both together, but a battle can end pretty quickly too, so... sounds like a cool idea, I'd just have it so that only one can be active at a time.
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I tried the alternate zealot tech upgrade. It's... not that great. Whole point of charge is so that zealots are able to move in and actually get some damage in before they die. Without it, the zealots are unable to ever get close, and by the time they do, they're already dead or close to it, thus defeating any purpose of being a melee shield. I suppose another upgrade you could try would be the SC1 straight movement speed upgrade.
Also, regarding the lurker suggestion I had earlier to nerf the range increase from +3 to +2 - I stand corrected, it needs the +3, lol. Are widow mines really only 75/25 in the HotS game? Or is that just a guess? I figured they'd be a bit stronger, given their power and ability to completely obliterate armies or key units.
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@SoulFilcher: Go
The version of the reaver you have in the expanded mod is considerably different from SC1. It does little splash and serves better versus bringing down large targets now over smaller targets. I had a base razed by 6 reavers in under a minute. So reavers would be great against Thor, Marauders even, Ultralisks, everything the Immortal was good against. It's actually better than the Immortal versus these units, but it sacrifices durability and mobility for it. So I agree with its current position as the alternative to the Immortal.
The Firebat is an iffy unit. Great against Zealot swarm, great against Zergling swarm.... that's about it. It won't hit a baneling before it gets close enough to explode, and it can't do crap to an Ultralisk. With the addition of the Battlemode Hellion coming in, the Firebat will essentially be obsoleted. If you get Firebats and the enemy Terran force gets Marauders, you're screwed. Stalkers/Dragoons, you're screwed. It eliminates your ability to take care of armored units right off the bat, making it such that you pretty much specialize against light. It can work, especially in team situations, but it's not very likely. The issue is that it's short-ranged and usually dies before it's able to fulfill its purpose. A zealot is more durable than a firebat. An armor upgrade does seem more suitable for the firebat as opposed to a damage upgrade. I don't know if the Firebat should stay or not honestly. I always get Marauders every time, and it usually does better. Trying to do Terran infantry ball without Marauders is pretty much impossible.
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Speaking of more things with no upgrades, Warfield's ship has 3 armor upgrades yet not weapon upgrades. Air upgrades do not upgrade that in the slightest either, thus making Warfield's ship more durable than a standard battlecruiser but with less firepower. Dunno if that's actually intended or not.
Also, is the Purifier supposed to be able to move while it's using Planet Cracker? I understand it's supposed to be used in conjunction with another Mothership using Vortex, but considering how long it takes to charge up, I figured it'd be appropriate if it could move.
Regarding the bone wasps, it wouldn't be too broken. Any large fleet or army would overrun the base anyways - this would give a greater defense against smaller attacks, which I feel Zerg don't have as well as Terrans/Protoss (superior scanning abilities like Sensor Towers and Observers for one). However, if it is something that's permanent, the ability should probably cost 125 or 150, so that it can only really be spammed with lots of queens, which most people aren't going to get that many. Could prove to be a new strategy with the Zerg (I am familiar of the Queen spam strategy right off the bat; this would make it more viable).