I just got done (gave up) trying to do something concerning texture swapping. The best I can say about what you're doing is that it requires more than with WC3, but it is possible.
Whether or not an MMORPG is possible is pretty much a moot point in my opinion. Now I'm not trying to say there should be a limit on how far we go with the "what ifs" when dealing with this engine as that would take all the fun out of it. What I am saying is that in venturing down this path, you're going to be working on something in such a constricting environment it wouldn't be worth it as you'd never be able to officially create one. We can argue what the "truest" definition of an MMORPG is, and what amount of immersion and player-base is needed to constitute the term "Massive" all we want, but in the end I think we can all agree that anything you create using the GE and BNet will not be an MMORPG and will ultimately end up resembling a Graphical MUD, or simply just a Multiplayer RPG. If someone is that set on creating an MMORPG, why limit yourself by using GE? Although that doesn't necessarily answer the "Is it possible?" portion, you get my drift.
Even if some techniques or workarounds can be used. Do you honestly think any mapper is capable of doing such a thing?, Is talented to do it?. To even make it remotely fun?. Not gonna happen.
Not only that, I'd go a step further and say even if the mapper was capable, the GE wouldn't be able to keep up.
Anyway, I think this user said it best. Game Over.
You could, but not in the traditional sense.
...
The authentic mmo feel just is not possible in sc2 however. That doesn't mean you can't spice the system up though...
@AzothHyjal: Go
I'm going to assume you are talking about the aesthetics I employ when it comes to representing the grid and highlighting appropriate tiles and not the actual algorithms themselves (The A* algorithm is used, btw), if I am wrong, let me know.
The game grid itself is generated right before any given map is to be played. Right now it's default size is a 9x9 grid consisting of cells that take up a 2x2 space (when compared to the editor grid) on the map. Since I wanted the squares to be semi-visible, I decided on using an item that I could submerge under the ground to create a square shape without the center being filled. This shape is: ScrapCube_05.m3 which is included with SC2 and is shown in the picture below. I can also recommend the Shape's, Box and Cube however I found the box walls to be too thick. Below is a little something I just put together to show you how it looks in the editor. (I figured I'd show off my new Ent class while answering your question. ;p).
In the next picture I cut a cross-section of the grid out so that you can see underground how I arrange the units. Now I am sure it would be smarter to use a smaller custom made model that is a simple 2-D square for the grid, but I don't dabble in 3D modelling, so this will do. Those with a keen eye will notice the Ent changed seasons on us. Dastardly.
The 'highlight unit', all copies of a single prop model, that represent various highlighting on the map is the GasCube.m3 model. My search algorithm simply creates one of these units at the appropriate grid space, adds it to a unit group for monitoring, and also takes care of it's cleanup.
Anyway I hope this answers your question and I apologize for not having the map uploaded yet since looking at the source would be much easier, but in it's current state it would be hard to decipher due to my lack of comments. When I add them, I'll release it which should be soon.
Hey! Thanks for the reply. If I were to answer my own question, I probably would have said something very similar to what you mentioned. I am definitely leaning toward the campaign scenario. The campaign I have in mind would be perfect for a project like this as a deeply involved campaign just doesn't fit SC2, even when modding it. The focus would be on customizing your units, your army, and your strategies in order to complete objectives. I also plan on making each mission a unique experience rather than "go to map x and kill all units", but still keeping it simple enough where you can focus on the game mechanics and not worrying about remembering names and plot history.
What I have brainstormed so far is that I should make use of the fact that I have the ability to start off by releasing '1 mission maps' that use your saved army, with the first of these maps containing an army creation function and mini tutorial. This way I can keep the story fresh and continue to create new maps at my leisure. The alternative being working on a huge map, getting 70% done and losing interest, or no longer having free time causing the entire project to go to waste. The episodic approach should prove to allow campaign style maps to grow rather than being worked on and forgotton about. I'm sure a majority of the projects advertised on this site and others never even reach a phase at which a playable copy is released, let alone a finished product is produced. I'm guilty for more than my share of indie-game abortions, it goes with the territory.
Well I went off on a tangent there, but thanks again for replying!
For a map like this, would you enjoy it to focus more on a single player campaign that can be played online via a co-op mode along with multiple people playing different parts of their own campaign on one map OR would you enjoy a sort of deathmatch style game with multiplayer being the main focus for character growth which would be started by choosing units and training them during random battles and by fighting other people at settings you choose (like in a fighting game)?
To make it simpler, would it be more enjoyable for the units to have some meaning in terms of a story with boss encounters, secret characters, computer allies etc or would the map be played more if it was closer to a "choose 10 units, choose a location, choose some rules, and battle your opponent"?
I'll probably end up features from both of my examples, but I am wondering which I should focus on first. Any input is greatly appreciated!
I Cant Stress Enough the Need for custom units in maps like these.
I Love Rpgs as much as the next guy but if i join a RPG and there are nothing but basic SC units im immediately turned off.
I Know alot of work goes into making a solid RPG and i really think people should just take the extra step of going over to the artist tavern and asking for some custom models.
improves immersion
improves interest
Your work actually gets seen instead of being "another starcraft rpg"
It's great that you mentioned this, since I actually feel very strongly about this. I spent more time exporting WoW models, setting up animations, importing them to SC2 and setting up the helmet/weapon hosting operations than I did actually coding the engine. As I said up above, my main goal is intense character customization combined with turn based strategy, having a simple SC2:The Turn Based Strategy Version map would be dull and honestly I wouldnt have the motivation if that was the final product.
The end project, if all goes as planned, will have the maximum amount of extra artwork (gui/buttons/bars/etc) and models allowed by the editor. They're likely to be WoW models. Right now I have a version of this map where I started to create 2 races and 2 genders for each Class (ex: Human Warrior Male, Human Warrior Female, Elf Warrior Male, Elf Warrior Female, etc). That's how detailed I want my map. The problem was that I broke 50MB with just a few Classes. My plan for now is to perfect the map with the SC2 models as appropriate classes while Blizzard continues to increase the size of banks, data allowed, and who knows, maybe they'll create a more streamlined WoW -> SC2 process that doesn't end up costing 1MB+ a character.
I actually worked on a 100+ class list spreadsheet (color coded and all haha), and planned on having individual units for each one as well as dual genders. I plan to follow this worksheet (screenshot below) anyway, as it creates my own input on the genre, so it's not just a generic TBS.
I don't get it, is that in Java or is it a Starcraft 2 map?
That's made with Galaxy Editor. Sorry if my introduction paragraph was a little confusing, I wrote it in a rush. I'll post a picture of the Java program and you'll notice the huge difference in graphics. The reason I even mentioned the Java program was to point out the power of the GE since I was able to port my engine over with almost 100% of the functions intact.
Note: The following are not from the SC2:GE, they are the precursor to my current SC2 Project
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3 (This is from the GUI, it's a weapon shop that I might integrate into the SC version only It'll be a unit shop)
If you notice, there are a lot of placeholder images such as the units which are copyrighted etc so working with SC2's models is awesome compared to this. Also, the GUI's are mostly custom made by me or they are heavy edits. Either way, it's all about the code which is being translated to the GE, which is approaching about 5MB worth of triggers and function calls. Thankfully that compresses like a napkin to a neat <1MB size..
In the first paragraph he explains he started making a game in Java but it lacked a bit of looks so he decided to use SC2 editor to do it instead.
And seems like a good idea to make a map like this, I don't think I've seen one yet on sc2.
There are two or three projects that I've seen on this site, and we're all around the same area in development (from what I've seen). Other than that, I don't think there ever was a Tactics based map made going all the way back to WC2Bnet, at least none that I know of, since the editors were never powerful enough. The Galaxy Editor is fantastic though they really did a great job with it. The one thing I've noticed is that of all the editors (counting WC2, WC3, SC1, and this one) the Galaxy Editor definitely had the steepest learning curve. The first few days were hellish due to the complexity compared to older editors.
A few months ago I started coding a Turn Based Strategy game in Java that was to combine games such as Disgaea, Final Fantasy and Fire Emblem as well as my own take on the genre. The graphics were 2D isometric and lacking in the looks department. I've decided to switch gears and create the game using the Starcraft Galaxy Editor.
The map as it stands now consists of a "world map" area with nodes that correspond to geographic locations such as the mountains, research facilities, lakeside, etc. It is grid-based and plays exactly like FF Tactics / Disgaea. I am going to emphasize the Disgaea aspect and focus on character customization, a 9,999 level cap, and as many classes as I can fit. I originally had planned about 60-70 classes, but since switching to the GE I'm going to start out with a solid core of melee, ranged, caster (support), caster (offense), and other basic units and build from there.
I've been working on the map for a few months and with the help of such projects as Turn Based Combat Game by Hamstroman I saw the capabilities of the editor in terms of TBS games. During these few months, the game has transformed from being a sprite engine which actually used Disgaea sprites as the classes instead of the 3D SCII models, back to a 3D based isometric "zoomed out" setting. While the sprites looked awesome, I would never be able to release the game on BNet due to copyright restrictions, so I changed back to using the default 3D models provided with SCII and have continued moving further.
The GUI is entirely new and is based on pixel artwork, for example the Unit Info health bars/energy bar are influenced by the simple, yet clean looking Pokemon GUI. I spent a few weeks trying different UI's by using images found in the GE resources. I had one GUI that I made out of the diffuse model image of a traffic light, cutting up the image to create borders, boxes, and icons, but I ended up scratching it and switching to a pastel colored hand-drawn pixel UI.
Work In Progress
Ok, enough with the background. As most projects one may find, this is a WIP but it is already playable, however not exactly fun as the AI is very basic and multiplayer support isn't finished. That being said, this project will be completed at least to a beta phase within the very near future.
Limitations
Before I get to the features, I want to point out certain limitations that I one day hope to surpass.
1.) The first is variety of Classes. My initial plan was to start with at least as many class types as found in FF:Tactics Advance 2, which is about 50. What I had started to do was export WoW models to fill in the roles of non-sci-fi classes. The overall setting would be a somewhat futuristic steampunk era, where swordsmen fight next to riflemen and technology seems to fold in and out of both of Blizzard's world settings. I was met with a brick wall at various paths while trying the WoW models, but in the end found that even the new 50MB limit is easily reached without even coming near the amount of classes I needed. What I figure is that I'll finish cementing the core of the game and use the current SC II models possibly using duplicates as placeholders.
2.) UI Dialog bugs are the second problem. I have mostly overcome them, but if I really wanted to I could render certain dialog features incapable of handling input by using one of the bookend resolutions, for example. This isn't too big of a deal, more of a time consuming area needing constant code updating and hotfixes.
3.) Lastly, the upcoming multiplayer part will require some recoding of core functions followed by testing. The limitation here being the number of players that would be feasible not only for the genre but for the network limitations. Currently I am trying for 4 players.
Features
The game will feature everything found in your basic TBS so I wont go into full detail right now. What I do want to cover is my goal for this project. I would like the end result to be a game that, when played on BNet, players who join can train their armies, build armies, save/load armies, battle other players in 1v1v1v1, 2v2, 3v1 etc matches during the game. If you have played any of the NIS or FF games, Disgaea 1,2,3, Makai Kingdom, FF Tactics, Advance, Advance 2, Tactics Ogre, picture being able to play the normal campaign but have the option to play it co-op, or by yourself while being able to save your army's progress such as character levels, bonuses earned, classes unlocked, etc. The integrity of the bank system is actually a fourth limitation due to what I've seen and heard, but I hope that they create a method to make it more secure in the future, i.e. only being able to save while playing online with a verified version of the map to eliminate map-edit cheating, etc. Anyway, that's all far off as right now I will focus on releasing a solid core from which to build upon. The map will be released regularly, or irregularly depending on my schedule, but either way progress will continually be made since I have such an interest in the inner workings of this genre.
I'll post screenshots and what I have done with the map so far within the next few hours/days. Also, I'll post anything that can be used outside of this project as an asset and link it. The first one of these should be the Random "Hero" name script that I translated from Java to GE with more to continue.
Edit: Here is a very basic shot, it's only the top left of the screen showing the custom resources and some units.
Screenshot #01: Desert Oasis Test Map
Screenshot #02: Desert Oasis Test Map
Another Image, this time you can see the highlighted tiles. Red means the tile has an attackable unit on it, green means you can move there, and purple represents your starting tile for the turn. I'm still experimenting with models for the selection highlights. Right now I am using a gas canister that's semi-transparent. I also have to finish lining up the dialog text. The thing I was testing in this particular image was my unit name randomizer. Each unit you create or are given will have a unique name based on it's gender or if it's a monster type unit.
Example: Male- Mike, Female- Emily, Monster- Ziglax.
So far the script can generate over 1000 names, so it'll be pretty neat once I add the bank since it's rare you'll meet another unit with the same name. (Gotta love the little things ;p).
0
@Xelaran: Go
I just got done (gave up) trying to do something concerning texture swapping. The best I can say about what you're doing is that it requires more than with WC3, but it is possible.
0
@Freyr_666: Go
Mine crashes almost as much as the Galaxy Editor...
0
Whether or not an MMORPG is possible is pretty much a moot point in my opinion. Now I'm not trying to say there should be a limit on how far we go with the "what ifs" when dealing with this engine as that would take all the fun out of it. What I am saying is that in venturing down this path, you're going to be working on something in such a constricting environment it wouldn't be worth it as you'd never be able to officially create one. We can argue what the "truest" definition of an MMORPG is, and what amount of immersion and player-base is needed to constitute the term "Massive" all we want, but in the end I think we can all agree that anything you create using the GE and BNet will not be an MMORPG and will ultimately end up resembling a Graphical MUD, or simply just a Multiplayer RPG. If someone is that set on creating an MMORPG, why limit yourself by using GE? Although that doesn't necessarily answer the "Is it possible?" portion, you get my drift.
Not only that, I'd go a step further and say even if the mapper was capable, the GE wouldn't be able to keep up.
Anyway, I think this user said it best. Game Over.
0
@DoubleElite: Go
I would take a look at how the Reactor add-on works in producing double units. That should lead you in the right direction.
0
@AzothHyjal: Go I'm going to assume you are talking about the aesthetics I employ when it comes to representing the grid and highlighting appropriate tiles and not the actual algorithms themselves (The A* algorithm is used, btw), if I am wrong, let me know.
The game grid itself is generated right before any given map is to be played. Right now it's default size is a 9x9 grid consisting of cells that take up a 2x2 space (when compared to the editor grid) on the map. Since I wanted the squares to be semi-visible, I decided on using an item that I could submerge under the ground to create a square shape without the center being filled. This shape is: ScrapCube_05.m3 which is included with SC2 and is shown in the picture below. I can also recommend the Shape's, Box and Cube however I found the box walls to be too thick. Below is a little something I just put together to show you how it looks in the editor. (I figured I'd show off my new Ent class while answering your question. ;p).
In the next picture I cut a cross-section of the grid out so that you can see underground how I arrange the units. Now I am sure it would be smarter to use a smaller custom made model that is a simple 2-D square for the grid, but I don't dabble in 3D modelling, so this will do. Those with a keen eye will notice the Ent changed seasons on us. Dastardly.
The 'highlight unit', all copies of a single prop model, that represent various highlighting on the map is the GasCube.m3 model. My search algorithm simply creates one of these units at the appropriate grid space, adds it to a unit group for monitoring, and also takes care of it's cleanup.
Anyway I hope this answers your question and I apologize for not having the map uploaded yet since looking at the source would be much easier, but in it's current state it would be hard to decipher due to my lack of comments. When I add them, I'll release it which should be soon.
@Sephiex: Go
Hey! Thanks for the reply. If I were to answer my own question, I probably would have said something very similar to what you mentioned. I am definitely leaning toward the campaign scenario. The campaign I have in mind would be perfect for a project like this as a deeply involved campaign just doesn't fit SC2, even when modding it. The focus would be on customizing your units, your army, and your strategies in order to complete objectives. I also plan on making each mission a unique experience rather than "go to map x and kill all units", but still keeping it simple enough where you can focus on the game mechanics and not worrying about remembering names and plot history.
What I have brainstormed so far is that I should make use of the fact that I have the ability to start off by releasing '1 mission maps' that use your saved army, with the first of these maps containing an army creation function and mini tutorial. This way I can keep the story fresh and continue to create new maps at my leisure. The alternative being working on a huge map, getting 70% done and losing interest, or no longer having free time causing the entire project to go to waste. The episodic approach should prove to allow campaign style maps to grow rather than being worked on and forgotton about. I'm sure a majority of the projects advertised on this site and others never even reach a phase at which a playable copy is released, let alone a finished product is produced. I'm guilty for more than my share of indie-game abortions, it goes with the territory.
Well I went off on a tangent there, but thanks again for replying!
0
@SouLCarveRR: Go
What flavor Gnome are you seeking? I found two that abide by the rules found in this thread. One is a bit sickly...
Edit: Model contains basic animations and 1H Attack, Idle/Fidget, two Spell casts, and leprosy skin.
0
@Reach0: Go
Ooh, Mr Popular.
0
I have a question for anyone reading this:
For a map like this, would you enjoy it to focus more on a single player campaign that can be played online via a co-op mode along with multiple people playing different parts of their own campaign on one map OR would you enjoy a sort of deathmatch style game with multiplayer being the main focus for character growth which would be started by choosing units and training them during random battles and by fighting other people at settings you choose (like in a fighting game)?
To make it simpler, would it be more enjoyable for the units to have some meaning in terms of a story with boss encounters, secret characters, computer allies etc or would the map be played more if it was closer to a "choose 10 units, choose a location, choose some rules, and battle your opponent"?
I'll probably end up features from both of my examples, but I am wondering which I should focus on first. Any input is greatly appreciated!
0
It's great that you mentioned this, since I actually feel very strongly about this. I spent more time exporting WoW models, setting up animations, importing them to SC2 and setting up the helmet/weapon hosting operations than I did actually coding the engine. As I said up above, my main goal is intense character customization combined with turn based strategy, having a simple SC2:The Turn Based Strategy Version map would be dull and honestly I wouldnt have the motivation if that was the final product. The end project, if all goes as planned, will have the maximum amount of extra artwork (gui/buttons/bars/etc) and models allowed by the editor. They're likely to be WoW models. Right now I have a version of this map where I started to create 2 races and 2 genders for each Class (ex: Human Warrior Male, Human Warrior Female, Elf Warrior Male, Elf Warrior Female, etc). That's how detailed I want my map. The problem was that I broke 50MB with just a few Classes. My plan for now is to perfect the map with the SC2 models as appropriate classes while Blizzard continues to increase the size of banks, data allowed, and who knows, maybe they'll create a more streamlined WoW -> SC2 process that doesn't end up costing 1MB+ a character.
I actually worked on a 100+ class list spreadsheet (color coded and all haha), and planned on having individual units for each one as well as dual genders. I plan to follow this worksheet (screenshot below) anyway, as it creates my own input on the genre, so it's not just a generic TBS.
0
That's made with Galaxy Editor. Sorry if my introduction paragraph was a little confusing, I wrote it in a rush. I'll post a picture of the Java program and you'll notice the huge difference in graphics. The reason I even mentioned the Java program was to point out the power of the GE since I was able to port my engine over with almost 100% of the functions intact.
Note: The following are not from the SC2:GE, they are the precursor to my current SC2 Project
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3 (This is from the GUI, it's a weapon shop that I might integrate into the SC version only It'll be a unit shop)
If you notice, there are a lot of placeholder images such as the units which are copyrighted etc so working with SC2's models is awesome compared to this. Also, the GUI's are mostly custom made by me or they are heavy edits. Either way, it's all about the code which is being translated to the GE, which is approaching about 5MB worth of triggers and function calls. Thankfully that compresses like a napkin to a neat <1MB size..
There are two or three projects that I've seen on this site, and we're all around the same area in development (from what I've seen). Other than that, I don't think there ever was a Tactics based map made going all the way back to WC2Bnet, at least none that I know of, since the editors were never powerful enough. The Galaxy Editor is fantastic though they really did a great job with it. The one thing I've noticed is that of all the editors (counting WC2, WC3, SC1, and this one) the Galaxy Editor definitely had the steepest learning curve. The first few days were hellish due to the complexity compared to older editors.
0
Project Background
A few months ago I started coding a Turn Based Strategy game in Java that was to combine games such as Disgaea, Final Fantasy and Fire Emblem as well as my own take on the genre. The graphics were 2D isometric and lacking in the looks department. I've decided to switch gears and create the game using the Starcraft Galaxy Editor.
The map as it stands now consists of a "world map" area with nodes that correspond to geographic locations such as the mountains, research facilities, lakeside, etc. It is grid-based and plays exactly like FF Tactics / Disgaea. I am going to emphasize the Disgaea aspect and focus on character customization, a 9,999 level cap, and as many classes as I can fit. I originally had planned about 60-70 classes, but since switching to the GE I'm going to start out with a solid core of melee, ranged, caster (support), caster (offense), and other basic units and build from there.
I've been working on the map for a few months and with the help of such projects as Turn Based Combat Game by Hamstroman I saw the capabilities of the editor in terms of TBS games. During these few months, the game has transformed from being a sprite engine which actually used Disgaea sprites as the classes instead of the 3D SCII models, back to a 3D based isometric "zoomed out" setting. While the sprites looked awesome, I would never be able to release the game on BNet due to copyright restrictions, so I changed back to using the default 3D models provided with SCII and have continued moving further.
The GUI is entirely new and is based on pixel artwork, for example the Unit Info health bars/energy bar are influenced by the simple, yet clean looking Pokemon GUI. I spent a few weeks trying different UI's by using images found in the GE resources. I had one GUI that I made out of the diffuse model image of a traffic light, cutting up the image to create borders, boxes, and icons, but I ended up scratching it and switching to a pastel colored hand-drawn pixel UI.
Work In Progress
Ok, enough with the background. As most projects one may find, this is a WIP but it is already playable, however not exactly fun as the AI is very basic and multiplayer support isn't finished. That being said, this project will be completed at least to a beta phase within the very near future.
Limitations
Before I get to the features, I want to point out certain limitations that I one day hope to surpass.
Features
The game will feature everything found in your basic TBS so I wont go into full detail right now. What I do want to cover is my goal for this project. I would like the end result to be a game that, when played on BNet, players who join can train their armies, build armies, save/load armies, battle other players in 1v1v1v1, 2v2, 3v1 etc matches during the game. If you have played any of the NIS or FF games, Disgaea 1,2,3, Makai Kingdom, FF Tactics, Advance, Advance 2, Tactics Ogre, picture being able to play the normal campaign but have the option to play it co-op, or by yourself while being able to save your army's progress such as character levels, bonuses earned, classes unlocked, etc. The integrity of the bank system is actually a fourth limitation due to what I've seen and heard, but I hope that they create a method to make it more secure in the future, i.e. only being able to save while playing online with a verified version of the map to eliminate map-edit cheating, etc. Anyway, that's all far off as right now I will focus on releasing a solid core from which to build upon. The map will be released regularly, or irregularly depending on my schedule, but either way progress will continually be made since I have such an interest in the inner workings of this genre.
I'll post screenshots and what I have done with the map so far within the next few hours/days. Also, I'll post anything that can be used outside of this project as an asset and link it. The first one of these should be the Random "Hero" name script that I translated from Java to GE with more to continue.
Edit: Here is a very basic shot, it's only the top left of the screen showing the custom resources and some units.
Screenshot #01: Desert Oasis Test Map
Screenshot #02: Desert Oasis Test Map
Another Image, this time you can see the highlighted tiles. Red means the tile has an attackable unit on it, green means you can move there, and purple represents your starting tile for the turn. I'm still experimenting with models for the selection highlights. Right now I am using a gas canister that's semi-transparent. I also have to finish lining up the dialog text. The thing I was testing in this particular image was my unit name randomizer. Each unit you create or are given will have a unique name based on it's gender or if it's a monster type unit. Example: Male- Mike, Female- Emily, Monster- Ziglax.
So far the script can generate over 1000 names, so it'll be pretty neat once I add the bank since it's rare you'll meet another unit with the same name. (Gotta love the little things ;p).
-Lou