Still working on toss, they seem to be giving me the most trouble, specificially with trying to balance out 3 archons..
also is anyone aware if terrain can move? :P IE a floating space platform that moves around the map that you can build on.. i really doubt it.. but maybe its possible.., even if sc2 doesnt support 3d environments
hmm, yea i saw those explosives.. just didnt see the exact map name, wasnt it that 'secret mission"?
@ your parisite concept: whats with the 'works for 25 mins' part? if it works that long why not forever? @ after it attacks u get option to build 5 more parisites or mind control a unit; just a tad complicated id say for melee
Update: heres a few toss ideas that have potential in my book, so i want feedback:
- shield generator(shield battery); upgrades from pylon, maintains its food produced, and building powering. but also - recharges energy/shields (units and buildings?) and reduces damage done to all allies in its shield area
- void ray; transforms into warp prism (with a time cost(can move while transforming), and maybe a mana cost. may also take mana to fire (build up damage), likely partially armor bypassing damage, or something (making it good vs heavy units)
-warp prism; transforms into void rays with a time cost and mana cost can move in transformation. also recalls troops via 2 abilitys (group recall, which recalls as many units in an area as possible for a mana cost based on transport size; and emergency recall, which is autocastable and recalls any unit that hits less than 10% health, with no shields at a conciderably higher mana cost, and a fair cast-time and cooldown.), Can also act as a pylon to power structures
-dragoons; get an upgrade for immortal type shields, requiring robotics bay (t3), since my latest build kinda cuts immortals outa the picture, and the role is sorta unfilled.
also it has been suggested that i add something to the nest (zerg), so i was thinking about maybe removing nidus canal/wyrm and allowing nest to function in a similar fasion (ofc you would need 2 or more nest, at different locations, otherwise it basically just serves as a way to bolster your forces..
also as per the control, i think that if you load into a nest, it should auto unload at the 'rally point' nest, if aplicable, otherwise just sit inside the nest like nydus wyrm currently is.
Also if anyone wants to chat live about this potential project; [email protected] is my live account so feel free to add me
ah nice
@ the 25% more saturation, im sure id find a way to limit this.. for example i could make it drain minerals at the same rate, but increase the movement speed, and mineral capacity of the worker, meaning that a mineral patch is fully saturated at 2 workers instead of 2.5 or whatever, although i believe the mule probably harvest a bit faster than workers, and it seems ok.. besides humans do tend to deplete resources rather quickly..
@events: (player innitiated), yea player innitiated events might be cool, maybe 'explosives' placed on the map in certain locations that users can attack inorder to deal aoe damage to nearby enemys, or even bridges being destroyable, are all in the realm of possibiltys, however those things ill really have to see how they turn out ingame, and would ofc be a map by map basis
@nest, i had low health in mind, esp if i plan on fusing it with nydus canal
@infestation; not 100% sure where your coming from off hand(which post is it in?); but the infestor currently has:
- Infect: Infects a small-biological(scvs included) unit with a parasite, after 5 seconds the target is destroyed, and 3 parasites emerge, and attempt to infect other biological units, parasite has 10 hitpoints, and last 90 seconds outside of a host.
transport,
and
Dark Swarm: Unleashes a horde of Insectoids that act as cover, which increases the chance that ranged attacks targeting units inside the cloud will miss by 30% (even structures). (defiler)
although i have been thinking about including a fungal type skill similar to fungal growth
@toss morphing, yea it may be a bit tough to find a good toss morph anim, i might run into a bit of visual trouble.., but i think that they could probably just expand out of the pylon in sort of a generic growth
@mercs: yea zerg hireing humans might be odd, but i could always replace the model while retaining stats, and name it 'infested merc' or whatever
2. i kinda like the whole bio decay idea... but what if instead of that, or feedback, the dark archon decayed energy from all nearby enemys, slowly gaining his own.., maybe dealing damage to any casters for mana sapped.. the dark archon will probably be alot more specialized though, and stick mostly to spellcasters.. maybe mind control though as it is primarily good against spellcasters, especially if it last a limited time.
3. goliaths are pretty anti-air yea, but i could always make vikings anti-ground ::P, wasnt sure if i wanted them or banshees anyways.. also as you said goliaths have strong piercing attacks that make them more suited for anti strong-units, and the gun buggy already covers weak ground nicely..
4. i kinda figured it was that thing XD, although i still say i like the current one better.. although if i do scourgelings (flying banelings) i may use a hybrid of that model, with a baneling attachment to its chest
5. yea the races do start out similar, i might change it up a bit, maybe make scvs harvest 25% more, but also cost 25% more, only start with 3 instead of 4 or some stuff meh...
6. still its really anoying to split the units up like that.. if 1 building healed em all itd be practical, if i do go anything like this itl be more of just the creep adds bonus health, and maybe more regen based on number of buildings on it.. but i doubt that
7. well the waygate 'morphs' into the warp gate. a pylon is basically a generator, so it wouldnt be much of a step to retro-fit a way to convert that energy into shields aswell.. but yea 'morph' prolly isnt the right word, its more of an upgrade XD
events; i might allow for several 'endgame' events like raising water/lava. and personally im not againtst semi-random events, solong as there localized to a single path, giving the user the choice.. and that the event is well documented so they dont just run in and BAM, to late
@more xel naga stuff; yea for sure :P, although i dont see any reason protoss/human structures cant be layining around aslong as their fair to all 3 races in what they offer (they cant offer something you can already build), by mercs i meant hireable hands :P,
@totally missunderstood my idea.....: ah, well asfar as resources go, it wont be long before 1-2 mods become particularly used, and include large quantities of resources, and are used in almost every map..., so you plan on adding all the alternative games to this 1 map? so when game is hosted the host picks a mode? ah
@nest having something else; in sc1 people built several hatcherys.. they dont do much else.. being a total unit producer in itself is pretty big, just maybe though they might function as nidus canals aswell, thats one of my possibilities for them, or maybe just house units similar to a bunker, except with inability to attack
also got an opinion on infested structures? im kinda against it, although i think zerg should be able to infest units (not mind control, they would essentially become weaker versions, an infested tank couldnt siege ect, and did about 50% the dmg, with 60%~ the life
1. overlords gain upgrade for detect; this is probably a good idea.. although it was already added a while ago :P: (see link on first post)
"Optical Sensors: increases sight range, and allows for detecton of invisible (@lair)"
2. 3 types of archons; still thinking about this one, i know im either doing 1, or 3, and the middle one would likely be a more average unit, strong and a spellcaster... might make the high templars fusion more of a spellcasting archon, and dark templars could be an anti-spellcaster maybe (feedback on attack, spell resistance ect)
3. @ vikings; i was thinking they wouldnt morph. although possibly if i added a longer transition mode (5-10 seconds), i might be able to squeeze them in. (basically id make them convert to goliaths, and goliaths convert to them, giving goliath the ground viking model, but its a bit unlikely)
4. melee flying, the new corrupter is melee range, with an aoe spore cloud (which im thinking might just become primary attack), although ive got no idea what the phylasaur is XD, its currently gonna use the old corrupters model as it seems to fit the descrip fine.
5. yea its a bit crazy to make workers anywhere beyond the main building, atleast soley, i just might allow the robo facility to make probes though, it might aide in faster expanding.. if the toss need it (there the only ones without a fast expansion method (zerg poop 50 workers in 1 setting, human can land a dropship then convert it.) so i guess if they expanded they could throw nexus, and pylon, soon as pylon is done throw a robo facility, to aide with worker production.. a bit.. id have to give it another role though.. maybe it could release repair robots or something (way slower than scvs repair but free)... although this might be to much for balance (if toss mechs can repair) ill look into it
6. @zerg regaining at their building; i think that would be just a little anoying having to split your people up to their respective base to regen
7. @shield battery: although not yet posted. i do have several ideas for this, and my current plan was to have it upgrade from a pylon.
recharge ofc, but still deciding on the mechanics of it, either 1 unit at a time quickly, or 4-6 at a time for 15-20, or all nearby for 3-4 mana per sec with no mana cost to use, or some hybrid
recall battery; i was thinking a shield battery could, recall 1 unit at a time, probably automatically, when hp goes below 10%, with no shielding, the recall time would have a cast time that is dependent on recalling units size, and the cooldown would be 4-6 seconds, added to the cast time.
i dont have plans for any real mining aides, except maybe the zerg queens, although that doesnt aide in full saturation situations, and is only about a 5-7% bonus total to mining, and is still iffy if itl help mining, but if i were to add something for toss mining it would likely be an upgrade, that increases there mineral carrying ammounts or something, and maybe give humans pipeline; aka return gas without workers
meteor shower might be interesting, but to prevent it from being a global thing, one would have to be in caves, or something, thereby the shower only hits outside the caves.. but its definently a doable mechanic, and it would probably work pretty well, and have unique damage compared to thorns bushes which would just deal small dot as the unit moves, @ gates that go on/off; well maybe special terminals, that you bring a worker, and click on the worker automatically builds you a bridge... although gates that are invulnerable and dropable by the holder of a node might be just a little to benificial and not to mention anoying because of ai issues trying to find shortest way, and repeated drop raise will cause ur enemy to patrol back and forth possibly
@alternative tech trees; aside from a few possible map specific structures to aide in general gameplay, i doubt im introducing any special units on a map by map basis..., although a few more neutral buildings might be included still duno yet, and mercs hmm?, what do u think of rescuable mercs, or neutral hostilies sitting around the minimap?, note; unlike in wc3 they would only serve the purpose of blocking access to vital points and stuff, and would be fairly weak 4-5 marines and a medic, protecting a xel naga tower or something
as for skins, ill try my best to incorperate any skins included in the mpq, that will pop up randomly on the units of that type, as sort of eastereggs... (that or changing the skin of level '10' units to make them slightly more recognizable.. this might be simple attachments or decals though nothing to fancy if no skin is available
@whos planning on making this; officially no-one, although if anyone its probably gonna be me....., however as i said.. i havnt started, nor do i know if i will..
@new race idea is halfassed and crap...when you come back with new origional ideas;
why? because the 'races' follow what sc already has?, couldnt the same be said about sc2 then.. it basically followed in sc1's footsteps keeping nearly identical tech trees..., and atleast 1/2 the units...
my human/toss tech trees are quite a bit different than sc1/2, (asfar as paths you can go), zerg is a little more conservative however..., and as for origional ideas?, give me 1 example (something origional, that would actually be cool/fit).. because i have quite a few new abilitys/upgrades added already.., and any mechanic that adds 'realism' has likely been tried in some other game (thusforth 'un-origional' by your definition?)
i wasnt unwilling to listen, but "this is imba period" isnt a valid critique(esp b4 i get into the actual stats), as there is almost always a scenario/stats where it would in-fact be fair
asfar as distribution of the counters its pretty close to what sc2/sc already has.. so the layout in general isnt imba?
Heres the FIRST 5 balance disagreements given in that post, and what i did in response:
"The reason everything hits on attack and doesn't miss is because league games are about skill and micro/macro. Not about being lucky ;):" - this particular comment doesnt make much sense to me.., certain units like zerglings do benifit greater from luck systems... than those that dont die 1-2 hits.. but that will be taken into account when/if the actual mod comes out... so no real change, aside from noting people are hesitant about miss chance
"Like it or not what your describing is very damn close to every unit being a Hero, or at the very least taking from Command & Conquer's promotion system used in Red Alert and Tiberium games.... making it even more 1 sided twards the winner" - i had never planned on making the leveled units significantly stronger, although i havnt really played red alert, so i cant say if this is/isnt like them.. even if it is, is that necessarily bad? essentially no change, because 'like another game" isnt exactly a bad thing.., ive already explored quite a few possibilitys to keep the game less 1 sided, although if after test this is still to good it may get removed...
"replinishing minerals would make camping to easy" after looking into this i agreed and removed it from the POSSIBLE list.., although i kept gas like sc1
"adrinaline mode not needed, people can just play game speed slow" - that wasnt the point of it, it was to increase battle time, while NOT increasing overall game time by much.... but anyways this probably wont make it into the mod..
".....You pretty much have the Hive turned into a Super Carrier building...(locust swarm type ability)" - whats so super about it? i failed to give ANY stats at this points at the time, you could be getting 2 'locust' that attack 1ce every 2 seconds for 1 damage.. so even arguing this is somewhat pointless.. it was just meant as a minor defense for the hive, since the new queen may or may not be at your base to protect it..
so outa those suggestings we have 1 actual valid balance suggestion (replinishing minerals), 3 i view as missunderstandings (miss chance, adrinaline, unit experience), 1 completely unbacked "OMG thats rigged"(hive with 'locust swarm'),
CREEPSTORM
@expansion denying with creep colonys: yea thats whats making it a bit iffy to let them freebuild, itl also greatly increase there defense though because now they can build up at there ramp, even if creep is still a ways from it.., i could possibly reduce the movement speed of drones off creep aswell as colony build time off creep.,
QUEENGAMBIT
nice post, kinda felt like you didnt read the link but thats ok :P
@ the tech tree, its not exactly confined. i decided what was gonna build from what before i made the actual tree.. i just moved the stuff around on the page to have better fit./flow :P, no part of it was really added 'because there was room'. except maybe the legend, which has nothing to do with gameplay, but helps others read the chart)
@ forced paths; i dont really like this idea to much, although your kinda forcing your path when u pick human, zerg or protoss..., but beyond that, making a decision which way to go and having no way to change that prettymuch requires atleast 1.5x the units to ensure that both paths had sufficient counters to everything, and i think this may spread the quality a little to low.., although building on that idea.. it might be interesting IF i were to allow the user 1 'hero' unit per game, and several buildings could spawn several different types of this 'hero' (probably just a buffed version of whatever tech unit that building allows, and maybe with 1-2 bonus spells, but in no way as godly as wc3 heros), also they could 'revive' (purchase again with same experience, but maybe at a greater cost)
@lurker the zerg tree already includes it.. not sure if people just arnt looking at the link or what? :P
@dragoons its on the techtree image above, aswell as in my current plans for toss
@shield batterys: what ive currently got is a replacement (that upgrades from a pylon, with cybernetics as a req) and still not sure if im gonna let it heal buildings
@queens fly: probably not from what ive decided there gonna kinda be like they are in sc2 (cept with different/less macro heavy role)
@slime, buildings moving (especially in 'normal' mode) is really stiff concept, and when it comes to balancing, imagine if a building were trying to go down a ramp, prettymuch blocking everything in till it gets down.., at one time i had a tower concept that was somewhat like this, you built a sunken basically, which came with 3-4 tenticles, that you could build anywhere on the same creep patch as the sunken, and once built they could burrow back under and relocate, but i think my current zerg tower is a little better, and there isnt really room for both
@dynamic terrain: id definently like to get more into this... as written in my post...
i do plan on reverting to the high ground miss-rate, instead of the current where yo usimply cant see up...
i would like to give vehicles a speed bonus on roads/concreate, and slow units traveling in water, ect.
at:Maybe more doodads or terrains that give 2% chance of atk bonus or 2% chance of increased armor.
not quite sure where your goin, but if u mean that fireing over a doodad could increase the rate of missing your target, that might be possible, although completely blocking the unit from targeting a unit hiding behind a rock may be a little hard..., it might work if i could find a way to prevent units from sharing vision with eachother (which would really change alot ingame, including tanks who can shoot past there sight range, would either need more sight or less range)'
@extra names; i was thinking once the units reached level 10 they get a special name or something to go with there rank...
@variety; kinda like how dark templar comes in 2 models?, if theres extra models that fit the bill, i could definitively see this becoming a reality.
@build pylon next to cybernetics, to give goons blink? what? that sounds a tad bit complicated, maybe if the cybernetics could function as a pyolon after an upgrade that also allows the goons crafted to blink.. but i dont really like this idea :P
thanks guys for the help, and for those that missed it in the first post.. heres the link again for whats currently going in the 'project'
Hiveworkshop.com - Sc1.5
and the other 2 tech tree images (found at the above link, but added here for convenience)
Zerg
im not sure if you noticed (or if you were just pointing out sc2s current status).. but in my tech tree hydralisk den only requires spawning pool.., and on the defensive note spore only requires evolution chambers..
also @ Creep Colonies since im on the topic, does anyone think they should be buildable off creep?, or would that add to much versitility, to early in the game?, what if they just built slower off creep or something..?
i agree the shield battery looked cool, however from my initial layout the pylons will have an upgrade that essentially covers the shield batteries role so chances are whatever i use as the model will resemble a pylon a bit more than the battery...
Mechanic wise, this allows for maneuverability (getting a battery anywhere you have a pylon, without needing a probe nearby, and making a stronger pylon, thus reducing the need for pylons field overlap. Do you think the battery should work on structures?, and are you for/against all shields being replaced with energy (pretty much like manashield in WC3)
Im currently looking for Ideas/suggestions, for a possible alternative melee tech tree... any ideas are apreciated, although not all will likely go into the mod
This 'Project' is basically a rework of starcraft/starcraft 2 tech tree and game mechanics/systems, incorporating the best of both worlds, as-well as new/replaced units/upgrades to better fill the needed roles. The aim is to produce a fun, dynamic, balanced; races and relationship; between the 3 races, while adding some interesting new game mechanics (something i think sc2 for the most part failed to do, in attempts to 'play it safe by sticking to closely to its predecessor )
______
at its current phase, it is in the CONCEPTUAL STAGE this means that everything posted is majorly open to suggestion/feedback and nothing as-of yet has been made, or is guaranteed to be made.
please dont complain to much about balance, except in a general sense, as none of the stats have even been tested ingame, which is where primary imbalances are discovered.
Good Balance Complaint: The protoss are currently lacking anti-bio weaponry(splash/low damage), maybe you could add something to help with this
Why?; because in the current stage this is helpful, as im trying to get a good general layout of the 3 races, including what units go where on the tech tree, inorder to effectively counter other strategys, and ideally every strategy should have an effective counter if identified ahead of time.
Bad Balance complaint: That unit is way to OP, it shouldnt have X ability
Why?; well because no ability inherently makes a unit overpowered.. its the stats on the unit/ability that affect its overall balance.
Bump/Update
Still working on toss, they seem to be giving me the most trouble, specificially with trying to balance out 3 archons..
also is anyone aware if terrain can move? :P IE a floating space platform that moves around the map that you can build on.. i really doubt it.. but maybe its possible.., even if sc2 doesnt support 3d environments
@BloodyTurds: Go
bump..
hmm, yea i saw those explosives.. just didnt see the exact map name, wasnt it that 'secret mission"? @ your parisite concept: whats with the 'works for 25 mins' part? if it works that long why not forever? @ after it attacks u get option to build 5 more parisites or mind control a unit; just a tad complicated id say for melee
Update: heres a few toss ideas that have potential in my book, so i want feedback:
- shield generator(shield battery); upgrades from pylon, maintains its food produced, and building powering. but also - recharges energy/shields (units and buildings?) and reduces damage done to all allies in its shield area
- void ray; transforms into warp prism (with a time cost(can move while transforming), and maybe a mana cost. may also take mana to fire (build up damage), likely partially armor bypassing damage, or something (making it good vs heavy units)
-warp prism; transforms into void rays with a time cost and mana cost can move in transformation. also recalls troops via 2 abilitys (group recall, which recalls as many units in an area as possible for a mana cost based on transport size; and emergency recall, which is autocastable and recalls any unit that hits less than 10% health, with no shields at a conciderably higher mana cost, and a fair cast-time and cooldown.), Can also act as a pylon to power structures
-dragoons; get an upgrade for immortal type shields, requiring robotics bay (t3), since my latest build kinda cuts immortals outa the picture, and the role is sorta unfilled.
also it has been suggested that i add something to the nest (zerg), so i was thinking about maybe removing nidus canal/wyrm and allowing nest to function in a similar fasion (ofc you would need 2 or more nest, at different locations, otherwise it basically just serves as a way to bolster your forces.. also as per the control, i think that if you load into a nest, it should auto unload at the 'rally point' nest, if aplicable, otherwise just sit inside the nest like nydus wyrm currently is.
Also if anyone wants to chat live about this potential project; [email protected] is my live account so feel free to add me
ah nice @ the 25% more saturation, im sure id find a way to limit this.. for example i could make it drain minerals at the same rate, but increase the movement speed, and mineral capacity of the worker, meaning that a mineral patch is fully saturated at 2 workers instead of 2.5 or whatever, although i believe the mule probably harvest a bit faster than workers, and it seems ok.. besides humans do tend to deplete resources rather quickly..
@events: (player innitiated), yea player innitiated events might be cool, maybe 'explosives' placed on the map in certain locations that users can attack inorder to deal aoe damage to nearby enemys, or even bridges being destroyable, are all in the realm of possibiltys, however those things ill really have to see how they turn out ingame, and would ofc be a map by map basis @nest, i had low health in mind, esp if i plan on fusing it with nydus canal @infestation; not 100% sure where your coming from off hand(which post is it in?); but the infestor currently has: - Infect: Infects a small-biological(scvs included) unit with a parasite, after 5 seconds the target is destroyed, and 3 parasites emerge, and attempt to infect other biological units, parasite has 10 hitpoints, and last 90 seconds outside of a host. transport, and Dark Swarm: Unleashes a horde of Insectoids that act as cover, which increases the chance that ranged attacks targeting units inside the cloud will miss by 30% (even structures). (defiler) although i have been thinking about including a fungal type skill similar to fungal growth @toss morphing, yea it may be a bit tough to find a good toss morph anim, i might run into a bit of visual trouble.., but i think that they could probably just expand out of the pylon in sort of a generic growth @mercs: yea zerg hireing humans might be odd, but i could always replace the model while retaining stats, and name it 'infested merc' or whatever
2. i kinda like the whole bio decay idea... but what if instead of that, or feedback, the dark archon decayed energy from all nearby enemys, slowly gaining his own.., maybe dealing damage to any casters for mana sapped.. the dark archon will probably be alot more specialized though, and stick mostly to spellcasters.. maybe mind control though as it is primarily good against spellcasters, especially if it last a limited time.
3. goliaths are pretty anti-air yea, but i could always make vikings anti-ground ::P, wasnt sure if i wanted them or banshees anyways.. also as you said goliaths have strong piercing attacks that make them more suited for anti strong-units, and the gun buggy already covers weak ground nicely..
4. i kinda figured it was that thing XD, although i still say i like the current one better.. although if i do scourgelings (flying banelings) i may use a hybrid of that model, with a baneling attachment to its chest
5. yea the races do start out similar, i might change it up a bit, maybe make scvs harvest 25% more, but also cost 25% more, only start with 3 instead of 4 or some stuff meh...
6. still its really anoying to split the units up like that.. if 1 building healed em all itd be practical, if i do go anything like this itl be more of just the creep adds bonus health, and maybe more regen based on number of buildings on it.. but i doubt that
7. well the waygate 'morphs' into the warp gate. a pylon is basically a generator, so it wouldnt be much of a step to retro-fit a way to convert that energy into shields aswell.. but yea 'morph' prolly isnt the right word, its more of an upgrade XD
events; i might allow for several 'endgame' events like raising water/lava. and personally im not againtst semi-random events, solong as there localized to a single path, giving the user the choice.. and that the event is well documented so they dont just run in and BAM, to late @more xel naga stuff; yea for sure :P, although i dont see any reason protoss/human structures cant be layining around aslong as their fair to all 3 races in what they offer (they cant offer something you can already build), by mercs i meant hireable hands :P,
@totally missunderstood my idea.....: ah, well asfar as resources go, it wont be long before 1-2 mods become particularly used, and include large quantities of resources, and are used in almost every map..., so you plan on adding all the alternative games to this 1 map? so when game is hosted the host picks a mode? ah
@nest having something else; in sc1 people built several hatcherys.. they dont do much else.. being a total unit producer in itself is pretty big, just maybe though they might function as nidus canals aswell, thats one of my possibilities for them, or maybe just house units similar to a bunker, except with inability to attack
also got an opinion on infested structures? im kinda against it, although i think zerg should be able to infest units (not mind control, they would essentially become weaker versions, an infested tank couldnt siege ect, and did about 50% the dmg, with 60%~ the life
thanks for the ideas.. just what im lookin for :P
1. overlords gain upgrade for detect; this is probably a good idea.. although it was already added a while ago :P: (see link on first post) "Optical Sensors: increases sight range, and allows for detecton of invisible (@lair)"
2. 3 types of archons; still thinking about this one, i know im either doing 1, or 3, and the middle one would likely be a more average unit, strong and a spellcaster... might make the high templars fusion more of a spellcasting archon, and dark templars could be an anti-spellcaster maybe (feedback on attack, spell resistance ect)
3. @ vikings; i was thinking they wouldnt morph. although possibly if i added a longer transition mode (5-10 seconds), i might be able to squeeze them in. (basically id make them convert to goliaths, and goliaths convert to them, giving goliath the ground viking model, but its a bit unlikely)
4. melee flying, the new corrupter is melee range, with an aoe spore cloud (which im thinking might just become primary attack), although ive got no idea what the phylasaur is XD, its currently gonna use the old corrupters model as it seems to fit the descrip fine.
5. yea its a bit crazy to make workers anywhere beyond the main building, atleast soley, i just might allow the robo facility to make probes though, it might aide in faster expanding.. if the toss need it (there the only ones without a fast expansion method (zerg poop 50 workers in 1 setting, human can land a dropship then convert it.) so i guess if they expanded they could throw nexus, and pylon, soon as pylon is done throw a robo facility, to aide with worker production.. a bit.. id have to give it another role though.. maybe it could release repair robots or something (way slower than scvs repair but free)... although this might be to much for balance (if toss mechs can repair) ill look into it
6. @zerg regaining at their building; i think that would be just a little anoying having to split your people up to their respective base to regen
7. @shield battery: although not yet posted. i do have several ideas for this, and my current plan was to have it upgrade from a pylon. recharge ofc, but still deciding on the mechanics of it, either 1 unit at a time quickly, or 4-6 at a time for 15-20, or all nearby for 3-4 mana per sec with no mana cost to use, or some hybrid recall battery; i was thinking a shield battery could, recall 1 unit at a time, probably automatically, when hp goes below 10%, with no shielding, the recall time would have a cast time that is dependent on recalling units size, and the cooldown would be 4-6 seconds, added to the cast time. i dont have plans for any real mining aides, except maybe the zerg queens, although that doesnt aide in full saturation situations, and is only about a 5-7% bonus total to mining, and is still iffy if itl help mining, but if i were to add something for toss mining it would likely be an upgrade, that increases there mineral carrying ammounts or something, and maybe give humans pipeline; aka return gas without workers
meteor shower might be interesting, but to prevent it from being a global thing, one would have to be in caves, or something, thereby the shower only hits outside the caves.. but its definently a doable mechanic, and it would probably work pretty well, and have unique damage compared to thorns bushes which would just deal small dot as the unit moves, @ gates that go on/off; well maybe special terminals, that you bring a worker, and click on the worker automatically builds you a bridge... although gates that are invulnerable and dropable by the holder of a node might be just a little to benificial and not to mention anoying because of ai issues trying to find shortest way, and repeated drop raise will cause ur enemy to patrol back and forth possibly
@alternative tech trees; aside from a few possible map specific structures to aide in general gameplay, i doubt im introducing any special units on a map by map basis..., although a few more neutral buildings might be included still duno yet, and mercs hmm?, what do u think of rescuable mercs, or neutral hostilies sitting around the minimap?, note; unlike in wc3 they would only serve the purpose of blocking access to vital points and stuff, and would be fairly weak 4-5 marines and a medic, protecting a xel naga tower or something
as for skins, ill try my best to incorperate any skins included in the mpq, that will pop up randomly on the units of that type, as sort of eastereggs... (that or changing the skin of level '10' units to make them slightly more recognizable.. this might be simple attachments or decals though nothing to fancy if no skin is available
all in all i really apreciate the input :)
@LaertesSC2: Go
@whos planning on making this; officially no-one, although if anyone its probably gonna be me....., however as i said.. i havnt started, nor do i know if i will..
@new race idea is halfassed and crap...when you come back with new origional ideas; why? because the 'races' follow what sc already has?, couldnt the same be said about sc2 then.. it basically followed in sc1's footsteps keeping nearly identical tech trees..., and atleast 1/2 the units... my human/toss tech trees are quite a bit different than sc1/2, (asfar as paths you can go), zerg is a little more conservative however..., and as for origional ideas?, give me 1 example (something origional, that would actually be cool/fit).. because i have quite a few new abilitys/upgrades added already.., and any mechanic that adds 'realism' has likely been tried in some other game (thusforth 'un-origional' by your definition?)
i wasnt unwilling to listen, but "this is imba period" isnt a valid critique(esp b4 i get into the actual stats), as there is almost always a scenario/stats where it would in-fact be fair
asfar as distribution of the counters its pretty close to what sc2/sc already has.. so the layout in general isnt imba? Heres the FIRST 5 balance disagreements given in that post, and what i did in response:
"The reason everything hits on attack and doesn't miss is because league games are about skill and micro/macro. Not about being lucky ;):" - this particular comment doesnt make much sense to me.., certain units like zerglings do benifit greater from luck systems... than those that dont die 1-2 hits.. but that will be taken into account when/if the actual mod comes out... so no real change, aside from noting people are hesitant about miss chance
"Like it or not what your describing is very damn close to every unit being a Hero, or at the very least taking from Command & Conquer's promotion system used in Red Alert and Tiberium games.... making it even more 1 sided twards the winner" - i had never planned on making the leveled units significantly stronger, although i havnt really played red alert, so i cant say if this is/isnt like them.. even if it is, is that necessarily bad? essentially no change, because 'like another game" isnt exactly a bad thing.., ive already explored quite a few possibilitys to keep the game less 1 sided, although if after test this is still to good it may get removed...
"replinishing minerals would make camping to easy" after looking into this i agreed and removed it from the POSSIBLE list.., although i kept gas like sc1
"adrinaline mode not needed, people can just play game speed slow" - that wasnt the point of it, it was to increase battle time, while NOT increasing overall game time by much.... but anyways this probably wont make it into the mod..
".....You pretty much have the Hive turned into a Super Carrier building...(locust swarm type ability)" - whats so super about it? i failed to give ANY stats at this points at the time, you could be getting 2 'locust' that attack 1ce every 2 seconds for 1 damage.. so even arguing this is somewhat pointless.. it was just meant as a minor defense for the hive, since the new queen may or may not be at your base to protect it..
so outa those suggestings we have 1 actual valid balance suggestion (replinishing minerals), 3 i view as missunderstandings (miss chance, adrinaline, unit experience), 1 completely unbacked "OMG thats rigged"(hive with 'locust swarm'),
CREEPSTORM @expansion denying with creep colonys: yea thats whats making it a bit iffy to let them freebuild, itl also greatly increase there defense though because now they can build up at there ramp, even if creep is still a ways from it.., i could possibly reduce the movement speed of drones off creep aswell as colony build time off creep.,
QUEENGAMBIT nice post, kinda felt like you didnt read the link but thats ok :P
@ the tech tree, its not exactly confined. i decided what was gonna build from what before i made the actual tree.. i just moved the stuff around on the page to have better fit./flow :P, no part of it was really added 'because there was room'. except maybe the legend, which has nothing to do with gameplay, but helps others read the chart)
@ forced paths; i dont really like this idea to much, although your kinda forcing your path when u pick human, zerg or protoss..., but beyond that, making a decision which way to go and having no way to change that prettymuch requires atleast 1.5x the units to ensure that both paths had sufficient counters to everything, and i think this may spread the quality a little to low.., although building on that idea.. it might be interesting IF i were to allow the user 1 'hero' unit per game, and several buildings could spawn several different types of this 'hero' (probably just a buffed version of whatever tech unit that building allows, and maybe with 1-2 bonus spells, but in no way as godly as wc3 heros), also they could 'revive' (purchase again with same experience, but maybe at a greater cost)
@lurker the zerg tree already includes it.. not sure if people just arnt looking at the link or what? :P @dragoons its on the techtree image above, aswell as in my current plans for toss @shield batterys: what ive currently got is a replacement (that upgrades from a pylon, with cybernetics as a req) and still not sure if im gonna let it heal buildings
@queens fly: probably not from what ive decided there gonna kinda be like they are in sc2 (cept with different/less macro heavy role) @slime, buildings moving (especially in 'normal' mode) is really stiff concept, and when it comes to balancing, imagine if a building were trying to go down a ramp, prettymuch blocking everything in till it gets down.., at one time i had a tower concept that was somewhat like this, you built a sunken basically, which came with 3-4 tenticles, that you could build anywhere on the same creep patch as the sunken, and once built they could burrow back under and relocate, but i think my current zerg tower is a little better, and there isnt really room for both
@dynamic terrain: id definently like to get more into this... as written in my post... i do plan on reverting to the high ground miss-rate, instead of the current where yo usimply cant see up... i would like to give vehicles a speed bonus on roads/concreate, and slow units traveling in water, ect. at:Maybe more doodads or terrains that give 2% chance of atk bonus or 2% chance of increased armor. not quite sure where your goin, but if u mean that fireing over a doodad could increase the rate of missing your target, that might be possible, although completely blocking the unit from targeting a unit hiding behind a rock may be a little hard..., it might work if i could find a way to prevent units from sharing vision with eachother (which would really change alot ingame, including tanks who can shoot past there sight range, would either need more sight or less range)'
@extra names; i was thinking once the units reached level 10 they get a special name or something to go with there rank...
@variety; kinda like how dark templar comes in 2 models?, if theres extra models that fit the bill, i could definitively see this becoming a reality. @build pylon next to cybernetics, to give goons blink? what? that sounds a tad bit complicated, maybe if the cybernetics could function as a pyolon after an upgrade that also allows the goons crafted to blink.. but i dont really like this idea :P
thanks guys for the help, and for those that missed it in the first post.. heres the link again for whats currently going in the 'project' Hiveworkshop.com - Sc1.5 and the other 2 tech tree images (found at the above link, but added here for convenience) Zerg
and Human
im not sure if you noticed (or if you were just pointing out sc2s current status).. but in my tech tree hydralisk den only requires spawning pool.., and on the defensive note spore only requires evolution chambers.. also @ Creep Colonies since im on the topic, does anyone think they should be buildable off creep?, or would that add to much versitility, to early in the game?, what if they just built slower off creep or something..?
i agree the shield battery looked cool, however from my initial layout the pylons will have an upgrade that essentially covers the shield batteries role so chances are whatever i use as the model will resemble a pylon a bit more than the battery... Mechanic wise, this allows for maneuverability (getting a battery anywhere you have a pylon, without needing a probe nearby, and making a stronger pylon, thus reducing the need for pylons field overlap. Do you think the battery should work on structures?, and are you for/against all shields being replaced with energy (pretty much like manashield in WC3)
Im currently looking for Ideas/suggestions, for a possible alternative melee tech tree... any ideas are apreciated, although not all will likely go into the mod
Starcraft 1.5's main Page ___PROJECT DESCRIPTION__ (pulled from the page linked above)
This 'Project' is basically a rework of starcraft/starcraft 2 tech tree and game mechanics/systems, incorporating the best of both worlds, as-well as new/replaced units/upgrades to better fill the needed roles. The aim is to produce a fun, dynamic, balanced; races and relationship; between the 3 races, while adding some interesting new game mechanics (something i think sc2 for the most part failed to do, in attempts to 'play it safe by sticking to closely to its predecessor ) ______
at its current phase, it is in the CONCEPTUAL STAGE this means that everything posted is majorly open to suggestion/feedback and nothing as-of yet has been made, or is guaranteed to be made.
please dont complain to much about balance, except in a general sense, as none of the stats have even been tested ingame, which is where primary imbalances are discovered.
Good Balance Complaint: The protoss are currently lacking anti-bio weaponry(splash/low damage), maybe you could add something to help with this Why?; because in the current stage this is helpful, as im trying to get a good general layout of the 3 races, including what units go where on the tech tree, inorder to effectively counter other strategys, and ideally every strategy should have an effective counter if identified ahead of time. Bad Balance complaint: That unit is way to OP, it shouldnt have X ability Why?; well because no ability inherently makes a unit overpowered.. its the stats on the unit/ability that affect its overall balance.
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