Long story short: Workers and artists work for visionairies. Visionairies are workers or artists cast in a different role. Just two workers can make a good map, while just two visionairies or just two artists can't. Two workers can never make a great map without visionairies and artists, though.
Did you fail to read the entirety of what I wrote Mozza? You know very well that I am an artist first, that not only was I a terrainer before a scripter, but also that I am a corporate graphic designer by trade. That being said, even though I am an artist first, I cannot lead a team on concepts alone. To lead a team you need to do one of the big two, because those big two are what takes up the most man hours of map creation.
I like what you wrote mate, but this thread was directed at the thread creators, the people wanting to create a team, not at the people wanting to join :)
You bought up very valid points, and yes, for people wanting to join a team there are no big two or small two, every role is unique and important.
This thread is aimed at helping you find a partner or complete team to work with, the pitfalls and highlights of such endeavours, and to help you determine realistic expectations.
The number one basic rule to finding a team.
You must bring something to the table other than ideas or concepts.
The Big Two
Triggering / Scripting
Data Editing
The Small Two
Custom Art (Photoshop)
Custom Models (3DMax)
The Rest that don't really count
Terraining
Concepts / Ideas
Balancing
Leadership Skills
The Reasoning
You might be QQ right now screaming "but noes, I have ideazor!", well that is good, but unless you can do one of the big two why should anyone do the work for you so you can put your name on it and take the credit? "but waits, I share credit", then your name wouldn't be on there because you didn't do anything, hence it would not be your map.
I personally was a Terrainer before I took up scripting, I have been terraining different games for a good 16/17 years. Yes, Terraining is a big part of map polish, but not really map creation. As you can see, 90% of the Popularity List has horrendous terrain, seriously, like burn it with fire Terrain. If you want to be a Terrainer and nothing else, then join Teams already created, or offer your services to maps already made. Do not be trying to Lead a team on Terraining skills alone.
Compare me and Dryeyece and see what skills we bring to the table.
Dogmai
Advanced Scripting
Custom UI Design Art (10+ Yrs experience in Commercial Graphic Design)
Custom Art (Items/Abilities/Loading Screen in Photoshop)
Terraining
Ideas + Concepts
Leadership Skills
Dryeyece
Advanced Data Editing
Balancing (Bachelors of Science, Majoring in Video Game Art and Design - An actual Degree)
Spell Animations (Eyecandy)
Terraining
Ideas + Concepts
Leadership Skills
So we are actually pretty much even, we both have design skills (Making things look good), I control the UI + Custom Art side of things, he controls the Hero + Balancing side of things. We are nearly equal in what we bring to the table in terms of skill level and commitment.
Commitment
We spend a good 10 hours a day on Skype while working on Tofu, 5 days a week, and this is at the moment the project is nearly finished. During the peak load we were communicating for 16 hours a day 7 days a week. It is hard to have someone with you all the time, ask anyone with a girlfriend, there have to be compromises sometimes, and you do not always get what you want.
Delays will happen, and you will have to learn to work around other people's abilities or lack thereof. People have real lives outside of Map Making, both Dryeyece and I made Tofu our goal, so we had to sacrifice other things in our lives to make it happen. Do not expect to be able to make an amazing map whilst going to school and/or working a full time job in a very short amount of time.
Broth
Too many cooks spoil the broth, etc etc. The more people you have in your team the more things can and will go wrong, the more inhouse bickering there will be, and the more likely the chance that the map will never ever be finished. My advice? Keep it to the bare minimum of two people, one for Data, one for Scripting, and get the rest involved (Terrain/Art etc) when the map is in Beta stage.
Showcasing your Concepts/Ideas
Never underestimate the value of showing people your work, even if it is unfinished, rough etc. It shows people you are serious, and where your skill level is at. When I first met Dryeyece, he wanted someone to help him with a Trigger problem, I went into his map and was blown away by his skill level. I showed him screenshots of my work and he wanted to click things and actually play it. Tofu at that stage was no where near finished, it was merely a working concept which I showed to him and he was like a fatman at a candy factory.
There is a difference between telling people your ideas and actually showing them a working concept regardless of how unfinished it is. You should have a very basic working concept if you are looking to recruit high-skill-level mappers and not your average nooblet.
Summary
You must either do Trigger Editing or Data Editing before asking people to join your team. Otherwise, you do not bring anything more to the table than Ideas/Concepts and should be posting in the Map Request forum and not Team Recruitment.
QQ Moar
If you are offended by what I have said, it is a fact of life that you must be offering something for other people to take you seriously. Nobody wants to carry another person, do all the work for them only to have them put their name on the finished product, what if the shoe was on the other foot?
If you cannot do one of the big two
Pick one and LEARN.
If you think its too hard to learn
We all started with Zero knowledge at one point in time.
If you do not have enough time to learn
Then you do not have enough time to make a map and thus, should post in the Map Request forum.
TL;DR
Read it all.
Suggestions / Agreements / Disagreements
Spam me below and I will update this post if appliciable.
Fail.
Did you fail to read the entirety of what I wrote Mozza? You know very well that I am an artist first, that not only was I a terrainer before a scripter, but also that I am a corporate graphic designer by trade. That being said, even though I am an artist first, I cannot lead a team on concepts alone. To lead a team you need to do one of the big two, because those big two are what takes up the most man hours of map creation.
I like what you wrote mate, but this thread was directed at the thread creators, the people wanting to create a team, not at the people wanting to join :)
You bought up very valid points, and yes, for people wanting to join a team there are no big two or small two, every role is unique and important.
Common Sense 101 (Team Recruitment Edition)
This thread is aimed at helping you find a partner or complete team to work with, the pitfalls and highlights of such endeavours, and to help you determine realistic expectations.
The number one basic rule to finding a team.
You must bring something to the table other than ideas or concepts.
The Big Two
The Small Two
The Rest that don't really count
The Reasoning
You might be QQ right now screaming "but noes, I have ideazor!", well that is good, but unless you can do one of the big two why should anyone do the work for you so you can put your name on it and take the credit? "but waits, I share credit", then your name wouldn't be on there because you didn't do anything, hence it would not be your map.
I personally was a Terrainer before I took up scripting, I have been terraining different games for a good 16/17 years. Yes, Terraining is a big part of map polish, but not really map creation. As you can see, 90% of the Popularity List has horrendous terrain, seriously, like burn it with fire Terrain. If you want to be a Terrainer and nothing else, then join Teams already created, or offer your services to maps already made. Do not be trying to Lead a team on Terraining skills alone.
Compare me and Dryeyece and see what skills we bring to the table.
Dogmai
Dryeyece
So we are actually pretty much even, we both have design skills (Making things look good), I control the UI + Custom Art side of things, he controls the Hero + Balancing side of things. We are nearly equal in what we bring to the table in terms of skill level and commitment.
Commitment
We spend a good 10 hours a day on Skype while working on Tofu, 5 days a week, and this is at the moment the project is nearly finished. During the peak load we were communicating for 16 hours a day 7 days a week. It is hard to have someone with you all the time, ask anyone with a girlfriend, there have to be compromises sometimes, and you do not always get what you want.
Delays will happen, and you will have to learn to work around other people's abilities or lack thereof. People have real lives outside of Map Making, both Dryeyece and I made Tofu our goal, so we had to sacrifice other things in our lives to make it happen. Do not expect to be able to make an amazing map whilst going to school and/or working a full time job in a very short amount of time.
Broth
Too many cooks spoil the broth, etc etc. The more people you have in your team the more things can and will go wrong, the more inhouse bickering there will be, and the more likely the chance that the map will never ever be finished. My advice? Keep it to the bare minimum of two people, one for Data, one for Scripting, and get the rest involved (Terrain/Art etc) when the map is in Beta stage.
Showcasing your Concepts/Ideas
Never underestimate the value of showing people your work, even if it is unfinished, rough etc. It shows people you are serious, and where your skill level is at. When I first met Dryeyece, he wanted someone to help him with a Trigger problem, I went into his map and was blown away by his skill level. I showed him screenshots of my work and he wanted to click things and actually play it. Tofu at that stage was no where near finished, it was merely a working concept which I showed to him and he was like a fatman at a candy factory.
There is a difference between telling people your ideas and actually showing them a working concept regardless of how unfinished it is. You should have a very basic working concept if you are looking to recruit high-skill-level mappers and not your average nooblet.
Summary
You must either do Trigger Editing or Data Editing before asking people to join your team. Otherwise, you do not bring anything more to the table than Ideas/Concepts and should be posting in the Map Request forum and not Team Recruitment.
QQ Moar
If you are offended by what I have said, it is a fact of life that you must be offering something for other people to take you seriously. Nobody wants to carry another person, do all the work for them only to have them put their name on the finished product, what if the shoe was on the other foot?
If you cannot do one of the big two
Pick one and LEARN.
If you think its too hard to learn
We all started with Zero knowledge at one point in time.
If you do not have enough time to learn
Then you do not have enough time to make a map and thus, should post in the Map Request forum.
TL;DR
Read it all.
Suggestions / Agreements / Disagreements
Spam me below and I will update this post if appliciable.