Lets open up the editor, oohh look a nice tool that Blizzard created and lets us use with their games, oh whats this, it says all maps made belong to Blizzard, oh maybe i dont want that, close the editor, end of story. My point is, as soon as you start to use their property, you must abide by their rules, if you dont want that, fuck off and play another game.
And colt, i seem to see a pattern in your posts, they all revolve around how you hate blizzard for a service they are providing, even if it is poor, the solution? dont use it, no one needs to hear your over excessive bitching.
I don't use their service because it sucks. Besides don't change the subject, this has nothing to do with any services provided by Blizzard.
Whether you like it or not, Blizzard doesn't have a right to anything created by the community. They can throw in their eula "hurr we own your maps" (which I don't believe was in the WC3 eula anyways), and legally (maybe) they can own our maps. But as I have said, ethically, they have no right to our maps. Just because they give us an editor and let us create stuff on their game doesn't mean they contribute to what we create. They didn't come up with the gameplay of our maps, they didn't come up with the names of our maps, they didn't come up with anything. Just because we used their tools doesn't mean they have any right to what we made with them.
See, this fellow gets it. It's also another nail in Blizzard's coffin when Valve has the decency of acquiring atleast one of the devs of DOTA. How many dota-devs does Blizzard have working on their version? Oh, that's right :/
first of all: dont quote whats directly above your post. it makes you look stupid. second: better read the terms of service of the wc3 editor again. thirdly: it IS true, it IS their right. thats what terms of service are for. quotation wikipedia:
Terms of service (abbreviated as ToS or TOS)[1] are rules by which one must agree to abide by in order to use a service. Unless in violation of consumer protection laws, such terms are usually legally binding.
you want to use the editor? didnt you agree to this rules? you dont want to agree to this rules you cant use the editor. its really simple. you can make a flash programm with the same TOS. its your right and you could own everything created with it. however nothing would be created with it, because there are alternatives. whoops.
end of discussion. you have no point.
I'll quote whoever I want, because it's proper forum etiquette, as it shows everyone who you're talking to, and exactly what you're responding to. That way there's no mis-communication.
And I don't believe WC3's editor ever stated directly "all your maps are belong to us", because if it did then Valve couldn't legally copywrite DOTA.... but they did. And so the fact that they copywrited it shows that it wasn't legally Blizzards property. So if the law itself says that Blizzard doesn't own our maps, who are you to say they do? Last I checked, you aren't above the law :/
Besides, law and TOS aside. It's just not ethical. Blizzard does absolutely NOTHING, they just give us an editor. They in absolutely no imaginable way help in the creation process of maps. Even -IF- they legally owned all the maps we produce, it's just unethical and greedy to go and take something we, the community, created and turn around and try to pawn it off as their own.
Blizzard has no rights to our maps, legally or ethically. We made them, just cuz we used their game doesn't give them the right to steal our content.
man colt.. do you know what you are talking about or are you just living in your happy baby world? everything created with the blizzard editor is owned by blizzard. if you use it you give up every right for the creation. they have the right to it. no discussion.
And yet if this were true, Valve wouldn't be able to trademark Dota. It's true NOW, in SC2, not in WC3. Blizzard owns what it created, the editor, the models. But it has absolutely no right to things created by the community. That'd be like the creator of a Flash program owning all the flash games/videos made with his program. It doesn't work that way. Blizzard has no rights to dota, they didn't develope the gameplay, or the heroes, or the name. Just because someone used their editor and their game, doesn't let blizzard own it.
What platforms the game was made on is entirely irrelevant. Just becuase it was made on WC3 does not give Blizzard the rights to it. It merely gives Blizzard the rights to the assets used, not the gameplay though, nor the name. Valve isn't trademarking the specific WC3 models, they're trademarking something that did not use a Blizzard product, and in no way belongs to Blizzard. Blizzard has no right to the maps WE create, so they should lose.
I don't even know where to start pointing out all the myriad of things that are wrong with what you just said.
Firstly, they aren't giving their assets away. The assets aren't a gift. The assets are still the intellectual property of Blizzard, as is the wc3 engine, editor and anything you create with the wc3 editor.
Secondly, it doesn't matter if they used the wc3 editor or not. For a start when DotA was first made, there weren't any third party editors available. Secondly, nothing in DotA was complicated enough to warrant more than what the standard editor provided, so this whole point is just speculation.
Lastly, do you really think Icefrog, who neither made the map, nor any of the assets involved in the map, is more entitled to the deeds over a) the people who actually made DotA or b) the people who made the assets and tools used to make DotA?
Firstly, they may not be giving the assets away, they ARE giving away the ability to use them to create various maps. They have NO right to claim ownership of maps, they themselves say the editor isn't supported by them, how can they claim ownership of something made using a tool they don't support?
Secondly, sure it's pure speculation.
Lastly, if the original devs of DOTA were filing for trademark of it, that'd be another story. But this is between Blizzard and Valve, how many dota devs does Blizzard have working for them? Oh.. that's right, none. Atleast Valve got one of the devs, this gives them more claim. It comes down to who has more, Valve has a dev of DOTA, blizzard doesn't. Therefore Valve has, albeit small, a legitiment claim to dota. Blizzard has no claim, at all, not even a small one. Therefore Valve wins. Since last I checked, small is still larger then nothing at all.
They chose to give their assets away for free, they can't turn around and go "hurr that's ours" That'd be like you giving somebody a gift, and then going that since you gave them that gift, they owe you. That's not how it works. Besides, I worked on maps in WC3 and I can say with a fair amount of certainty that the creators of DotA didn't use Blizzards shitty map editor, they probably used a third party one.
And while I know Icefrog didn't make dota, and as such doesn't make Valve entitled. It gives Valve more entitlement then Blizzard. Atleast valve brought an important person of dota development to work with them, who'd blizzard get? Oh right, nobody. Obviously given all the itterations dota's been through, it'd be quite impossible to hire all the devs, but atleast valve made the effort to get SOMEBODY who worked on it. Blizzard couldn't even be bothered to do that much. And in this case, it's the lesser of two evils, so Valve wins.
Frankly, I'm glad there's over-saturation, DOTA killed WC3. Where once there was a game full of variety, now there's only DOTA. If SC2 got a super good DOTA map as well, it'd be the same thing, just dota and nothing else. Atleast with this over-saturation, SC2 wont be dragged down like WC3 was, everyone's spread out, leaving room for creativity to thrive... until Blizzard kills it themselves with publishing/popularity systems. Rofl, can never win.
Fact is there'd be no DotA if not for Blizzard's Warcraft series. Chicken and egg.
Blizzard have a stake in this.
And there'd be no DotA if the creators didn't.. well.. create it. Besides, Aeon of Strife gametypes have been around a lot longer then WC3, so no Blizzard really has no stake. Just because somebody used their editor to make something, doesn't mean they have a right and take it over. Blizzard's just being greedy, trying to take other peoples work and pawn it off as their own.
Personally, I hope Blizzard loses. They don't deserve to win. They sit by as map makers create something beloved by all (cept me, damn map ruined WC3), and then try to swoop in and take it as their own. Atleast Valve had the decency to hire the creator of DOTA before swooping in and taking it.
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I don't use their service because it sucks. Besides don't change the subject, this has nothing to do with any services provided by Blizzard.
Whether you like it or not, Blizzard doesn't have a right to anything created by the community. They can throw in their eula "hurr we own your maps" (which I don't believe was in the WC3 eula anyways), and legally (maybe) they can own our maps. But as I have said, ethically, they have no right to our maps. Just because they give us an editor and let us create stuff on their game doesn't mean they contribute to what we create. They didn't come up with the gameplay of our maps, they didn't come up with the names of our maps, they didn't come up with anything. Just because we used their tools doesn't mean they have any right to what we made with them.
@crazyfingers619: Go
See, this fellow gets it. It's also another nail in Blizzard's coffin when Valve has the decency of acquiring atleast one of the devs of DOTA. How many dota-devs does Blizzard have working on their version? Oh, that's right :/
I'll quote whoever I want, because it's proper forum etiquette, as it shows everyone who you're talking to, and exactly what you're responding to. That way there's no mis-communication.
And I don't believe WC3's editor ever stated directly "all your maps are belong to us", because if it did then Valve couldn't legally copywrite DOTA.... but they did. And so the fact that they copywrited it shows that it wasn't legally Blizzards property. So if the law itself says that Blizzard doesn't own our maps, who are you to say they do? Last I checked, you aren't above the law :/
Besides, law and TOS aside. It's just not ethical. Blizzard does absolutely NOTHING, they just give us an editor. They in absolutely no imaginable way help in the creation process of maps. Even -IF- they legally owned all the maps we produce, it's just unethical and greedy to go and take something we, the community, created and turn around and try to pawn it off as their own.
Blizzard has no rights to our maps, legally or ethically. We made them, just cuz we used their game doesn't give them the right to steal our content.
And yet if this were true, Valve wouldn't be able to trademark Dota. It's true NOW, in SC2, not in WC3. Blizzard owns what it created, the editor, the models. But it has absolutely no right to things created by the community. That'd be like the creator of a Flash program owning all the flash games/videos made with his program. It doesn't work that way. Blizzard has no rights to dota, they didn't develope the gameplay, or the heroes, or the name. Just because someone used their editor and their game, doesn't let blizzard own it.
He didn't say that windows runs an apple OS, nor that Apple OS is programmed in C. :|
What platforms the game was made on is entirely irrelevant. Just becuase it was made on WC3 does not give Blizzard the rights to it. It merely gives Blizzard the rights to the assets used, not the gameplay though, nor the name. Valve isn't trademarking the specific WC3 models, they're trademarking something that did not use a Blizzard product, and in no way belongs to Blizzard. Blizzard has no right to the maps WE create, so they should lose.
Firstly, they may not be giving the assets away, they ARE giving away the ability to use them to create various maps. They have NO right to claim ownership of maps, they themselves say the editor isn't supported by them, how can they claim ownership of something made using a tool they don't support?
Secondly, sure it's pure speculation.
Lastly, if the original devs of DOTA were filing for trademark of it, that'd be another story. But this is between Blizzard and Valve, how many dota devs does Blizzard have working for them? Oh.. that's right, none. Atleast Valve got one of the devs, this gives them more claim. It comes down to who has more, Valve has a dev of DOTA, blizzard doesn't. Therefore Valve has, albeit small, a legitiment claim to dota. Blizzard has no claim, at all, not even a small one. Therefore Valve wins. Since last I checked, small is still larger then nothing at all.
They chose to give their assets away for free, they can't turn around and go "hurr that's ours" That'd be like you giving somebody a gift, and then going that since you gave them that gift, they owe you. That's not how it works. Besides, I worked on maps in WC3 and I can say with a fair amount of certainty that the creators of DotA didn't use Blizzards shitty map editor, they probably used a third party one.
And while I know Icefrog didn't make dota, and as such doesn't make Valve entitled. It gives Valve more entitlement then Blizzard. Atleast valve brought an important person of dota development to work with them, who'd blizzard get? Oh right, nobody. Obviously given all the itterations dota's been through, it'd be quite impossible to hire all the devs, but atleast valve made the effort to get SOMEBODY who worked on it. Blizzard couldn't even be bothered to do that much. And in this case, it's the lesser of two evils, so Valve wins.
Frankly, I'm glad there's over-saturation, DOTA killed WC3. Where once there was a game full of variety, now there's only DOTA. If SC2 got a super good DOTA map as well, it'd be the same thing, just dota and nothing else. Atleast with this over-saturation, SC2 wont be dragged down like WC3 was, everyone's spread out, leaving room for creativity to thrive... until Blizzard kills it themselves with publishing/popularity systems. Rofl, can never win.
And there'd be no DotA if the creators didn't.. well.. create it. Besides, Aeon of Strife gametypes have been around a lot longer then WC3, so no Blizzard really has no stake. Just because somebody used their editor to make something, doesn't mean they have a right and take it over. Blizzard's just being greedy, trying to take other peoples work and pawn it off as their own.
Personally, I hope Blizzard loses. They don't deserve to win. They sit by as map makers create something beloved by all (cept me, damn map ruined WC3), and then try to swoop in and take it as their own. Atleast Valve had the decency to hire the creator of DOTA before swooping in and taking it.